December 26 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

Session Start: Sun Dec 26 20:57:19 1999
<shimmer{S-E}> oh my
<BernieRoehl> Hi, everyone!
<lil^bear^> hi Sir Bernie...:)
<`zee> merry ho ho BernieRoehl
<shimmer{S-E}> hi Bernie Sir :) been awating you :)
<sweetslave{AF}> hi Bernie
* shimmer{S-E} growls at her i key
<Spader^> and a good evening to you... ^W|CKED^....
<^W|CKED^> ahh
* BernieRoehl smiles at shimmer -- wouldn't miss it!
* shimmer{S-E} grins ... i was getting nervous!
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message for the channel, which reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.  Also note that the discussion is being logged.  If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick.  We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag.  Tonight's discussion topic is "Communication During a Scene".  The moderator tonight is shimmer.  Enjoy the discussion!
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<shimmer{S-E}> the disc?? there's a disc?? ;))
* shimmer{S-E} giggles
<shimmer{S-E}> anyway ...
<BernieRoehl> I'd like to welcome our moderator for this week, the lovely shimmer!
* BernieRoehl applauds
<BernieRoehl> Over to you, shimmer
* shimmer{S-E} blushes and does the curtsey thang
* sweetslave{AF} smiles greetings to her Master
<shimmer{S-E}> First off, i would lke to welcome everyone to this evening's discussion. i hope everyone has been enjoyng a happy holiday season :) Secondly, i would like to warn everyone that my "i" key isn't working that well - Santa forgot about it ... so please bear with me on that ;) 
<shimmer{S-E}> Tonight's topic (as Bernie said)is "communicating during a scene". i've often heard subs say "i've never had to use a safeword" .. or Doms saying "my sub has never safeworded" ... which is great .. but i've heard some whispering behind the scenes .. subs saying that they didn't want to disappoint their Masters by safewording ... has anyone else heard that?
* BernieRoehl nods
<sweetslave{AF}> I have heard from a few friends who echo those same words...but I think that illuminates a more pressing need for communication on both sides
<shimmer{S-E}> 'splain, sweetslave?? how so?
<`zee> i have and i have done that to a i want to push myself more and more
<shimmer{S-E}> my question to you, zee ... is that safe?
<`zee> is it safe to push myself and not safeword?
<`zee> yes at that point i still have the power to safe out if i need to
<shimmer{S-E}> well, is it safe to do that when you've reached a point where it might be too much ...
<`zee> but the hardest thing for me is when i am in subspace..than i can't speak at all
* shimmer{S-E} nods ... and what happens then?
<sweetslave{AF}> if a sub feels she is disappointing her Dom by communicating her limits...which means she is feeling afraid to express what is really going on with is the Dom to know how to respond appropriately...this would cause serious psychological and physical damage if left unattended would it not?
<`zee> i tend to yell the STOP!...rather than red...that comes naturaly to my voice
<Spader^> that why the Domm must know what to look for
<`zee> than i have to rely on the Dom that knows i am in subspace and can not speak for myself
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with zee
<shimmer{S-E}> good point, sweetslave ... but how does a slave/sub who naturally wants to please, say "no" ...
<shimmer{S-E}> many don't
* `zee nods and agrees
<Spader^> well the trust must be a long term relationship
<shimmer{S-E}> Spader Sir ... how does a Dom who is playing wth a new sub know what to look for?
<TheWolfe> the assumption being made here is that the sub should lie to their Dom/me in order to please them
<shimmer{S-E}> not at all, TW Sir ... i don't think that enters into the equation in the sub's mind
* ^W|CKED^ chuckles
<Spader^> that a learning of his sub
<TheWolfe> oh?
<sweetslave{AF}> however, the sub/slave does know her limits and how far they can be pushed at a given time....yes, we always strive to be pleasing...but are we really pleasing when we are not communicating truth at all times during a scene?
<`zee> a Dom i know has the sub use the word ' mercy' He feels it is still a very submissive word and stays within the atmosphere of the scene...sub/slaves find it easier to ask for 'mercy' than a colour
<shimmer{S-E}> i hear many subs say that they didn't safeword sheerly out of a need to please, or not disappont.  don't think it's considered "lying" to them
<katiias> why would a Dom play witha sub in a scene without knowing enough about the sub and the limits and so on to be able to read the sub and know when things are too much, or for that matter, never get to where things are too much?
* shimmer{S-E} growls at her i key again
<Spader^> whatever works for you.... :)
<TheWolfe> the comment made was some subs do not use a safeword so they don't disappoint their Dom/mes 
<katiias> okee dokee
<TheWolfe> so they lie
<`abi> I wonder if they sometimes don't use it so that they don't disappoint themselves
<shimmer{S-E}> i think that's a keen observation, abi .. can you explain more in depth
<shimmer{S-E}> ?
<sweetslave{AF}> yet, we cannot possibly expect the Doms to be mind readers
<BernieRoehl> I think the problem is more acute when you're playing with someone for the first or second time.
<shimmer{S-E}> i think sometimes subs do expect that, sweetslave
* `zee nods to `abi
<TheWolfe> so they set up the Dom/me possibly
<shimmer{S-E}> How do you, as a Dom/me, handle communication with a new play partner?
<`abi> well shimmer, as zee has offered, we are often times pushing ourselves, testing our limits, stretching ourselves...if we safeword out...we are more likely to disappoint ourselves than the Dominant
<`zee> is it all up to the sub/slave at the time of a scene..can't the Dom see that at some point she/he has taken more than usual and take the lead in checking with her how she is doing?
<TheWolfe> if it is someone new or something new I ask the person what their colours are
<shimmer{S-E}> fair enough, abi ... but what happens when (as mentioned before) you're in sub space ... and unable to talk (for example) ... and you can't handle any more ... what then?
<TheWolfe> but if they are lying I wouldn't know
<shimmer{S-E}> how often do you check, TW Sir?
<`zee> i have seen some scenng that the sub/slave is offered a drink throughout a that time the Dom checks their eyes, skin tone and touch and their response is kinda a check-up
<shimmer{S-E}> or do you check?
<Paladin69> well zee i would suppose that a lot of that depends on the caliber of Dom one is playing with, is he new to play or experience? That should be a factor. to be considered...
<TheWolfe> depends on the situation
* `zee nods to Paladin69 Sir
<`abi> that's exactly the case for me's nearly impossible for me to communicate verbally if I'm deep enough...I depend on communicating before and after a scene ...and on trusting the Dominant to know me well, or to err on the side of caution when in doubt
<shimmer{S-E}> good point, Paladin Sir ... and what if you have 2 new players?
* sweetslave{AF} nods
* `zee nods in agreement with `abi
<shimmer{S-E}> question for the Dom/mes here ... how often do you check your sub when scening? what makes you check?
<`zee> i can't speak when in deep surrender and if i do many times i will not make the right choices for me and need the Dom to be the one that says have had enough
* sweetslave{AF} totally agrees with zee
<shimmer{S-E}> zee- does that go to the heart of our choices in play partners?
<shimmer{S-E}> and if so .. what happens with inexperienced subs?
* ^W|CKED^ checks fairly often - when he senses he might have pushed too hard
<`zee> yes shimmer{S-E} it should
<shimmer{S-E}> what do you do to check, Wicked?
<`zee> inexperienced subs should only scene with skilled Doms till they learn where they are and how they react to things i think
* shimmer{S-E} smiles
<TheWolfe> and inexperienced Dom/mes should read books?
<Paladin69> 2 new players better be talking before after and inbetween, I like to check in with a newbie at every change up escalation. Chect hands and verbally etc...untill comfy with reading the body language
* ^W|CKED^ chuckles at Wolfe
* katiias laffs
<shimmer{S-E}> and how often does that happen in real lfe, zee? When i was first starting out, i was so susceptible!
<`abi> not necessarily zee...there is something to be said for learning together... it just requires a slower pace and more caution I think
<`zee> and inexperienced Doms should have the guts to want to learn from an experienced Dom before any private play
<^W|CKED^> I look at how they're moving, run my hands over them
<nekkid_confused_one> in anticipation??????
<`zee> you are right ` can be learned step by step together..but a new Dom can learn a lot if they wish to from an experienced one too
* shimmer{S-E} nods at Paladin ... what did you do when you were new? (assuming you're not)
<`zee> i still am susceptible shimmer{S-E}..and i think i am a bit experienced...i think?
* BernieRoehl was very lucky when He started out... played with some very patient submissives who were will to teach without trying to lead
<TheWolfe> how many "experienced" Doms would be willing to take new Doms under their wing for proper training?
<shimmer{S-E}> For me, it helped when another sub said to me "It's ok to say 'i'm not ready to go there right now'" .. that helped me realize that it was "ok" to say no
<Paladin69> I suppose for me there is an instictive factor,but when starting out exploring together was a lot of fun, being a fast learner, and body reader
<BernieRoehl> I would, and have TW
<^W|CKED^> TheWolfe: not many from what I've seen
* shimmer{S-E} laughs
<TheWolfe> so have I
<shimmer{S-E}> there are a few, TW Sir. One Dom i know told me of a mentoring system that exsted when he was just startng out ... 
<BernieRoehl> Yes, body reading is really important, Paladin
<`zee> skin and pulse and breathing and dilation of eyes is all in that body reading too
<shimmer{S-E}> so ... how do we "teach" new subs and Doms about the importance of communicating?
<shimmer{S-E}> or do we?
<BernieRoehl> Breathing is a big one, zee.  And sound... sound is very important
<`zee> i wonder if you are a good communicator normally if it is easier for You than if you are not?
<`zee> sound of their voice BernieRoehl Sir?
<^W|CKED^> more than likely, zee
<BernieRoehl> Yes, but not necesarily words zee.
<`abi> I think perhaps the most successful are the good listeners
* `zee nods to BernieRoehl Sir
<`zee> ahh well said abi
<lil^bear^> but i think it all depends on the sub...moving with me is a big thing..and sound well i think i make alot of sound...when i have reached the point..everything slows down and the Dom needs to be aware of that...
<shimmer{S-E}> how do you tell your Dom that, lil^bear?
* BernieRoehl thinks that learning to read a particular sub's body is something that gets easier the more you play with her
<TheWolfe> words
<`abi> it's the small print that's tough Bernie ;)
<`zee> i agree BernieRoehl Sir... and as well the more you play the more endurance she and You build up is ever changing
<shimmer{S-E}> TW Sir .. that may be obvious to you :) i know that some people have a tough time expressing themselves, particularly when they are new
<lil^bear^> before we play...i am over senstive and hyper..and they know that...and when that starts to leave..they know I am almost at the point...where things could go wrong..if they arent careful...
<BernieRoehl> True, abi!
<BernieRoehl> Yes, zee -- that learning process is also very "bonding" (so to speak)
* lil^bear^ runs over to Sir ^W|CKED^ and hops into his lap...just cause..SHE CAN
<^W|CKED^> lol
* shimmer{S-E} grins
* lil^bear^ laughs
<shimmer{S-E}> what happens when communication breaks down? 
<shimmer{S-E}> Has anyone here ever been hurt because of it?
<^W|CKED^> breaks down? Scene ends
<`zee> both parties get hurt
<katiias> you use nails
<TheWolfe> someone is not interested anymore & someone is going to get hurt 
<lil^bear^> aww communication is very important and given this type of play should not break down for it could lead to injury...
<shimmer{S-E}> what happens when t's miscommunication, TW? 
<BernieRoehl> There are short-term and long-term communication breakdowns.  Short-term means communication during a scene, long-term means in the context of a relationship.
<`zee> once i was at my point and than was asked by the Dom spotting to take a bit more for Him.....i pushed and pushed myself till i screamed..STOP!  i am not sure how i felt about Him requesting that of me..knowing that who i was would have me take more just from His request
<TheWolfe> someone may also get hurt
* shimmer{S-E} nods at zee
<shimmer{S-E}> did that affect your trust in Him, zee?
<TheWolfe> a sub shouldn't "take it" for anyone
<shimmer{S-E}> TW - once a mistake has been made, can trust be re-established?
<`zee> yes it did... because know i will never know at what point He would not ask more of me
<TheWolfe> sure it can...if one is honest about it
* ^W|CKED^ would certainly hope so
<katiias> of course
<shimmer{S-E}> why of course, kat? is that such a certainty?
<katiias> Doms are human, subs are human
<TheWolfe> if one admits to it & it was a real mistake
<katiias> if one cannot forgive, its a pretty sad thing methinks
<shimmer{S-E}> TW .. i've heard many Doms say "i never apologize for a mistake"
<^W|CKED^> That's not all
<TheWolfe> that is arrogant & foolish
<shimmer{S-E}> do you still play with Him, zee? 
<katiias> a Dom who will not apologize for His mistake isn't worth playing with, imho
<swannie^^> shimmer with all due respects then that is a dom i would not trust ... 
<`zee> no i don't shimmer{S-E}
* ^W|CKED^ grins
* shimmer{S-E} smiles at kat and swannie
<BernieRoehl> I think Doms have to acknowledge their mistakes.  It's not like the submissive doesn't know that something went wrong, so you may as well be up front about it.
<TheWolfe> there isn't a Dom/me who hasn't made a mistake
<lil^bear^> ya know...there was a Dom at the munch, that apologized to me..not for some thing that happened in play for i never played with him but for something concerning my kids..and he sincerely apologized for his comments..all it did in my eyes..when increase my respect for him...
* sweetslave{AF} agrees
<lil^bear^> and I think..that is the case with any Dom that says..sincerely..hey i screwed up
<swannie^^> you know ...i have watched people in this lifestyle for many years.... 
<`zee> i don't not play with Him purposely...the situation hasn't arisen again..but if it did i would ask Him before hand to not ask me to take more when i am at that point of breaking....
<shimmer{S-E}> One particular Dom said that in a 24/7 TPE, he sees no reason to apologize for mistakes, since his slave is his property anyway. Do you see that as a breakdown in communicaton or just another way of doing things?
<swannie^^> one thing that i have noticed is those that need to play a role all the time are just that ...playing a role ..... 
<Spader^> We are people we do make mistakes
<TheWolfe> that is a domineering person shimmer
* shimmer{S-E} apologizes once again for her broken "i"
<`abi> is there a difference between acknowledging a mistake and apologizing for it perhaps?
<^W|CKED^> Different way of doing things. Definitely not the way I'd want it though
<BernieRoehl> I try not to judge what others do in their relationships.  I can only speak for myself, and even when I consider someone my property I still make sure the lines of communication are there (or try to).
<lil^bear^> i dont know or not..he makes mistakes he is human..just to damn proud to admit he aint my own opinion
<victoria_angel{Flint}> shimmer, i don't think that for most Dom/mes a 24/7 means ownership...or possession
<shimmer{S-E}> so .. is an apology by a Dom necessary communncation, or is it contextual(with the relationship)?
* lil^bear^ scrounges around her desk looking for a pop tab....aww got one brb...**runs over to her kids**
<`zee> i agree swannie^^..if it is a role..than it is harder..if it is who you flows better
* Spader^ smiles at victoria_angel{Flint}
<victoria_angel{Flint}> acknowledgement of an apology would ensure respect to me if the Dom/me has made an error - this respect would ensure growth of trust between us
<shimmer{S-E}> swannie- can you tie your role comment in with how it may affect communication in a scene?
<BernieRoehl> I feel that if something has gone wrong, an apology (and a discussion of what when wrong) is the only way to resolve it, and achieve some closure on the problem.
<shimmer{S-E}> ll^bear - would that have the same magnitude as a sub not safewording in order to be pleasng?
<TheWolfe> agreed Bernie
<swannie^^> i have watched casual play ......and before the scene many times there is a long discussion between partners to set limits and to understand what the expectations are... 
<TheWolfe> and that goes for the mistake of a sub not calling a safeword when s/he should have
<swannie^^> those are scenes that i have enjoyed watching.....because they are communicated ....
* `zee nods to TheWolfe Sir
<swannie^^> i have also watched scenes where the partners have been together for a long time ..and they scene like an olympic dance... 
<BernieRoehl> Yes, TW, that's true.  Of course, subs will often drop so deep that they literally aren't able to safeword -- which can be disconcerting if it's someone you don't know well enough to read non-verbally.
<InVisibleSilence> if someone else did not mention could not get to be any good at all at being a Dom or sub if mistakes where not made
<shimmer{S-E}> TW ... how do you teach a new submissive about the neccesity of safewording? i am harping on this because i have heard SO many say that they can't/won't ...
<TheWolfe> I ask them
<TheWolfe> they must respond
<swannie^^> it scares me though to watch people who are so into their perceived role that they cannot and will not listen to others...including the people they are playing with 
<shimmer{S-E}> Bernie Sir- would you stop the scene once they were so deep that you weren't sure? 
<`abi> I'm not sure it can be taught shimmer...for me it's important to communicate the fact that I'm unlikely to safeword
<TheWolfe> the first 5 or 6 scenes are somewhat clinical because of this
<BernieRoehl> I've played with subs who *never* safeword.  I try to tell them that I can go much further if I know there's that safety net there.  If I can count on their safewording, I don't have to err on the side of caution so much.
<TheWolfe> agreed Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Yes, shimmer, but that's always frustrating to do.
<Paladin69> well, my opinion is this, if a submissive feels she can't/won't safe word for fear of dissappointing a Dom, then maybe she should not be playing with that Dom. 
<TheWolfe> if someone won't safeword I won't play
<`abi> that isn't always the reason Paladin
<Paladin69> What other reason abi??
<TheWolfe> what submissives here would play with a Dom/me who would not respect a safe word?
<swannie^^> i don't have a safeword Paladin
<`abi> fear of disappointing myself Paladin
<shimmer{S-E}> TW - you may not know that they won't safeword ...  don't think it's a planned thing
<`zee> i wouldn't Sir
<victoria_angel{Flint}> is it possible that the sub may be so absorbed in the scene and really not be able to use a safeword? - much like freezing?
<TheWolfe> they say they won't
<shimmer{S-E}> i've never safeworded ...
<shimmer{S-E}> i've never had to. 
<`zee> i have yellowed twice and screamed STOp once!
<TheWolfe> I'm not talking about people who are unable or who are being dishonest
<`abi> or simply the inability to do so
<shimmer{S-E}> But there are those who have needed to and can't brng themselves to do t
<swannie^^> i was never given a safeword ..but Master has stopped the scene because he recognized i could not go on 
<BernieRoehl> Different people have different limits, of course.  Some people's threshhold is very high.
<`zee> it seems to me the more experienced or the more i play and the more intense it gets..i seem to yellow
<lil^bear^> and some ppls are very low..and the Dom has to learn what the threshhold is...
<swannie^^> i never realized that i needed to stop .....i would never have called a safeword although stopping the scene was the right thing to do 
<shimmer{S-E}> swannie - did you know about safewords?
<`zee> but i think that is because i am taking more and experiencing more new things
<swannie^^> absolutely ... 
<TheWolfe> yeesh
<shimmer{S-E}> So ... is that a trust issue with your Master, then?
* ^W|CKED^ chuckles
<Paladin69> Well as a Dom I pride myself on being able to read the submissive, and end it when I see fit, there are many clues to end it when a submissive won't, but that comes with experience, i think the big concern for a submissive would be when playing with the new dom.
<shimmer{S-E}> that question was for swannie ;)
<swannie^^> we spent a long time communicating prior to ever playing 
<swannie^^> partially because of distance and mostly cause that is the way Master is ... 
<`zee> what goes through a Dom/mes mind when he/she hears the word 'yellow or red'...honestly ..what first goes through Your minds?
<shimmer{S-E}> were you comfortable with that choice, swannie?
<shimmer{S-E}> good question, zee
<TheWolfe> oh oh
<`zee> do You think..oh god i have gone too far?
<`zee> do You panic at all?
<`abi> I think the important thing for newbies to know is that reaching the safeword is not the object of the exercise
<TheWolfe> I think oh oh
<shimmer{S-E}> i think many do, abi .
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I agree with TW -- "oh oh".  Not in a bad way -- just "there's something wrong that needs to be fixed"
<Paladin69> zee the first thing goes thru my mind is time to stop/slow down, did I go too far??
<swannie^^> yes ...very much so ...especially since i have learned that i could not tell when i had enough .....i had been holding my breath and he stopped the scene 
<victoria_angel{Flint}> TW - why oh oh?
<`zee> as in what have i done wrong TheWolfe Sir
<swannie^^> i would not have realized i needed it to stop 
<TheWolfe> I check her first just a quick inspection as I approach her
<TheWolfe> then I talk to her
<TheWolfe> first thought
<TheWolfe> oh oh
<TheWolfe> as in what is wrong
<BernieRoehl> The first thing I do on yellow is back off on what I was just doing, and evaluate
<TheWolfe> it doesn't matter it it was Me or the eqiuipment or her...something is wrong
<`zee> i always tell the Dom that yellow could mean i have a leg cramp..i am position is doesn't always have to mean something is wrong with what the Dom is doing!
<shimmer{S-E}> how do Doms go about rectifying "red" situations? Does it bring both crashing out of the "zone"?
<victoria_angel{Flint}> why wrong TW - could it not be a limit was reached?
<BernieRoehl> Right -- the Dom shouldn't take a safeword as some kind of personal assault
* shimmer{S-E} nods at Bernie
<TheWolfe> wrong as in something is not ok with her
<BernieRoehl> Yes, exactly
<`zee> exactly BernieRoehl Sir..and if they do i can see where a sub/slave is reluctant to use the words
<BernieRoehl> Right.  If we want our subs to feel comfortable safewording, we have to accept the safewords and give them positive reinforcement.
* lil^bear^ nods in agreement
<`zee> or if safeing will bring the scene or the momentum to a halt!
<TheWolfe> the sub should be reluctant to play with them not reluctant to use the safewords
* sweetslave{AF} agrees
<shimmer{S-E}> i can see that, zee - good point
<`zee> that is where saying 'mercy' or something just as submissive helps to keep the atmosphere alive while the item is dealt with
<victoria_angel{Flint}> so, in essence, a safeword is either a STOP PLAY or a LETS TAKE A BREATHER
<BernieRoehl> Red (in my opinion) should halt the scene.  Yellow shouldn't -- that's one key difference between the two.
<shimmer{S-E}> victoria ... in that case, is "green yellow red" too limiting?>
<TheWolfe> or everything is fine ie: green
* `abi chuckles...."taupe" would confuse most Doms I know shimmer ;)
* lil^bear^ giggles at abi
<sweetslave{AF}> lol
<shimmer{S-E}> i like mauve personally, abi ;)
<victoria_angel{Flint}> no, not really, but i remember a time i couldn't remember YELLOW - ... wasn't ready to give up, but needed a pause
<`zee> sometimes just 10 seconds break from an intense point is good than keep going
<Paladin69> don't think GYR is too limiting, any one should be prompting further detailed discussion, cryptic though it may be
<TheWolfe> too many safewords make it confusing for everyone
<lil^bear^> yellow shouldnt mean stop tho...
<shimmer{S-E}> no "green and a half" then? ;))
<TheWolfe> yellow doesn't mean stop
<shimmer{S-E}> is it just a time for clarification, then?
* BernieRoehl agrees
<TheWolfe> it means change things a little or I have a bee on my left breast
<shimmer{S-E}> LOL
* BernieRoehl laughs
* `zee laughs'
<BernieRoehl> At which point I would take it off her left breast... and move it to her right one  :-)
<shimmer{S-E}> those outdoor scenes can get you, TW ;)
<victoria_angel{Flint}> i wasn't prepared to stop, but i needed to slow down - TW - very cute....giggle
<shimmer{S-E}> lol, Bernie
* BernieRoehl always aims to please :-)
* lil^bear^ giggles
<`zee> i know what you mean victoria_angel{Flint}...sometimes just a slow or a change in the toys can make a big difference to the longevity of the scene
<`zee> and i don't mean from one type of paddle to another colour of
<shimmer{S-E}> One more question ... have any subs here been in so deep that they haven't been able to safeword ... and if so, what did they do?
<victoria_angel{Flint}> yes, and it did make this particular time longer and much more intense
<shimmer{S-E}> (and needed to safeword)
<TheWolfe> en has been 
<TheWolfe> she cried
<shimmer{S-E}> Did that mean "red" to you?
<victoria_angel{Flint}> shimmer, i've never scene'd but what happened to en happened to me - a total emotion change
<lil^bear^> i havent expereinced that shimmer...but I  would assume it is up to the Dom to knwoledgeable of what the sub is experiencing and how far in it she is...hence the trust aspect...
<swannie^^> Master stopped the scene .....he realized i was not doing too well 
<TheWolfe> I stopped, checked on her & determined what the tears meant
<`zee> i have..... and to be don't know you need to just cry or break down
<TheWolfe> it was yellow
<Paladin69> I don't know why anywone should be rerally stuck on the establised norm of RYG, I have played with subs that have never used any of these, but will communicate their issues in their own fashion, it is nice to set this standard for a play party but privatley things can be in a state of flux, One submissive I know has never safe worded but her reactions on a few instaces screamed red louder than if she actually yelled out RED. Again that is up to 
<TheWolfe> another time the tears meant green
<shimmer{S-E}> Paladin - in other words, as long as the people involved know what's going on, it's ok , right? ;)
<`zee> i agree Paladin69 Sir.. those words are not normally used by me in everyday context when things go wrong... i use the words that are on my lips...the Dom that knows me knows the difference when i wish to go on and am just pleading and when i really need to have a break
<TheWolfe> isn't that limiting zee?
<`zee> limiting Sir?
<Paladin69> is what limiting?
<TheWolfe> aren't there times when stop is what you are yelling but go is what you mean?
<`zee> it is easier for me to yell STOP i can't take anymore!! than to find that word 'red'
<TheWolfe> en yells stop all the time!
<shimmer{S-E}> searching for that safeword in the jumbled-ness of scene space can be hard
<TheWolfe> well, not all the time, but she doesn't mean red
<`zee> i agree shimmer{S-E}
* cyberbrat_ has had "ow ow ow" mistaken as "yellow"... when it meant "really green"
<TheWolfe> lol brat
<`zee> guess it all goes back to communication and knowing the Dom and sub the way that you do
<TheWolfe> true
<TheWolfe> we started with colours
<BernieRoehl> That brings up another interesting point... some submissives feel they have to be "stoic" -- which can be very difficult.
<shimmer{S-E}> Indeed, Bernie ... that was what i was failing to get across earlier :)
<TheWolfe> they work well for us, although not used much anymore unless something new is introduced 
* lil^bear^ aint stoic..she a wimp lol
<shimmer{S-E}> lol
<Paladin69> Well the stoic sub is a good reason to play with a spooter, this helps immensly with the communication..
<`zee> when something new is brought in colours are good Sir
<TheWolfe> I like body language
<BernieRoehl> I would rather have a submissive moaning, yelling, crying... responding.  I thrive on those responses.
<`zee> a spooter?
<shimmer{S-E}> spotter ;)
<BernieRoehl> I think that should be "spotter"  :-)
<`zee> ohh sorry
* `zee grins
* lil^bear^ shivers
<`zee> i thought i was going to learn an new word?
<TheWolfe> but does a spotter aid communication or suppress it?
<Paladin69> sorry typing quicker and not checking
<BernieRoehl> Some submissives have told me that they were worried that if they screamed, I might stop... so they held it all in!
<victoria_angel{Flint}> Bernie - do those responses give a Dom/me enough aid in monitoring the sub?
<shimmer{S-E}> i've "frozen" before when a limit of mine was pushed too hard ...couldn't find the "red" ... it just wasn't there
<TheWolfe> that's like having a coach or trainer in your corner...someone else to be embarrassed in front of
<BernieRoehl> I think the feedback is very valuable, victoria_angel -- and very satisfying  :-)
<`zee> someone..a spotter, asking me how i am doing is distracting i find..unless they can read me well and i don't have to answer all the time
<Paladin69> A spotter aids communication, IE if using a cross or suspension, then the spotter can be right at the front of the sub and be right there to check all the vitals, hands, eyes, verbal and even aid in
<`zee> aiding in play is nice
<BernieRoehl> The odd time I've been invited by a Dom to play with their sub, and the Dom became the spotter for the scene (since He was far more familiar with her repsonses far better than I was)
<shimmer{S-E}> i wouldn't want someone asking me constantly if i was ok would be too distracting
<`zee>  but somehow..unless the spotter and the Dom are very closely linked..they may read differently
<TheWolfe> agreed zee
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with shimmer....very distracting
<`zee> for me... to have the constant it a toy or a hand while the toys are changed keeps the communication flowing
<shimmer{S-E}> well folks ... our time is up and thank you for the input! Keep on going, but we will be stopping the log now :)
* sweetslave{AF} claps for shimmer
<sweetslave{AF}> well done!
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for moderating, shimmmer!   Great job!
* `zee applaudes to shimmer{S-E}
* shimmer{S-E} blushes and hugs sweetslave :)
* BernieRoehl applauds shimmer
<victoria_angel{Flint}> wonderful shimmer!
* lil^bear^ smiles...good discussion shimmer
<`abi> nice job shimmer :)
* `vixie greets A/all those she didn't when she came in!
<shimmer{S-E}> thank you, A/all!!!!!!!!!!
<Paladin69> I did not mean constantly checking in, if you have a spotter playing from the front and you stop responding to a deep tongue etc he should know enough to stop it, or a zillion other little clues, as a spotter i only check in verbally frequently with newbies or when really escalating the limits later in the scene, otherwise i am having a little fun
* lil^bear^ wiggles her toes....thinks coffee
<sweetslave{AF}> be well A/all
<BernieRoehl> Well folks, I'm going to head offline...
<BernieRoehl> Have a great night, everyone!
<`vixie> g'night BernieRoehl
<lil^bear^> hugs Sir
<northernmiss> night Bernie Sir
<victoria_angel{Flint}> see E/everyone next weekend
<shimmer{S-E}> gnight Bernie Sir :) thanks everyone :)
<InVisibleSilence> night bernie
<InVisibleSilence> Bernie even