December 26, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Who Is Really In Control... the Dom/mes or the Subs?". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<ssinnergy> he'o Miss K, dove, Justice and a/All
<Miss_Kristaz> Hello dove,ssinnergy
<ssinnergy> (smiles)
<becky> lol
<ssinnergy> I/i think it's the kind of person not just the role...some Dom/mes feel responsible and some hold their subs responsible--and ditto in reverse for subs
<`abi> is responsibility the same thing as control?
<ssinnergy> I/i think it's an aspect in any trusting relationship
<ssinnergy> hi Da
<dana^^> what kind of responsibility
<`abi> I agree that it's an aspect, but I don't think it's the same thing as control
<`abi> I have lots of responsibility ... but not control
<ssinnergy> responsibility changes I think...what's it mean to you?
<ssinnergy> me too!
<dana^^> i think responsibility and control are two different things...
* _dove smiles and agrees that responsibility and control are different
<ssinnergy> can you exercise control without responsibility given or offered
<`abi> yes
<`abi> whether or not you should, is another question
<`abi> but lots of people do it
<ssinnergy> I/i'm not going for word games
<_dove> That doesn't generally last long ssinnergy
<dana^^> responsibilities would be more of task to complete, looking after yourself and family...
<`abi> nor am I ssinnergy ... I'm going for clarity
<`abi> because it has been my experience that some people confuse control with responsibility
<ssinnergy> yes, I/i agree--I wouldn't want to give or take without trust
* kierana{DRFL} settles onto the subbie couch with a sigh and a coffee
<_dove> trust is something else entirely
<dana^^> they should go hand in hand
<ssinnergy> (grabs a java of his own)
<kierana{DRFL}> control and responsibility go hand in hand?
<ssinnergy> well I have to trust someone knows themselves to pla
<dana^^> in a long term relationship, yes i think they should
<ssinnergy> and trust someone as much to submit
<dana^^> trust in them or their skills?
<ssinnergy> a scene can be tantalizing if the partner's not a complete known commodity
<ssinnergy> though a little fear is tantalizing
<dana^^> does enjoy the fear factor... but ive only played with experienced Dominants... Friends of friends...
<ssinnergy> and a lot pulls me out of it
<kierana{DRFL}> soooo how does this tell us who's in control, the sub or the dominant?
<dana^^> the Dominant is still in control... even if its Top/bottom... atleast for me thats the way it is
<ssinnergy> well it doesn't I/i guess, but it's a part of edge play the trust
<`abi> I can have lots of trust ... it doesn't put the person in control
<ssinnergy> and I/i think different Dom/mes feel responsible for earning control
<ssinnergy> whilst some demand it
<`abi> trust they earn ... control I give them
<_dove> demand?
<dana^^> has trust also... and gives that control even if its in a limited fashion... but the responsibility is still mine...
<dana^^> grins
<`abi> and they can demand it all they want ... if don't cede it, they don't get it
<`abi> insert I
<dana^^> if that makes sense... for Top/bottom
<ssinnergy> a confident sub should demand respect i/I guess
<dana^^> why ssinnergy?
<kierana{DRFL}> why would we have to demand respect?
* _dove is lost
<ssinnergy> (smiles at 'abi and dana who're making me think)
* abitbent hands _dove a map
<dana^^> smiles with dove...
<painslt_VBM> a Dom/me or sub/slave shouldn't have to DEMAN respect, they should exude it so other's can see it. if O/one gives respect to others, they will get it in return
<dana^^> lol sinnergy...
<kierana{DRFL}> what does respect have to do with control? geesh i'm discombobulated
<_dove> Maybe i'm wierd, but i don't demand respect,i earn it...... and nobody demands control from me (and gets it)
<_dove> Want a copy of my map kierana{DRFL}?
<`abi> not always painslt_VBM ... giving respect does not guarantee that one will have that respect returned
<ssinnergy> I/i've been hurt when disrespected, now my submission goes to those deserving
<painslt_VBM> hmmmmmmmmmmm
<ssinnergy> and it's not just power I/i respond to
<Miss_Kristaz> canI get a copy of the map?
<dana^^> as it should sinnergy... its about being true to yourself
<kierana{DRFL}> sure dove...cause i'm just confuzzled here...what does any of this have to do with who's altimately in control?????
<_dove> i'm still trying to read the map kierana{DRFL} - i'm lost too
<`abi> it doesn't have anything to do with control kierana{DRFL} .. except in the same sense that responsibility does ... one may not wish to cede control to someone who does not take responsibility and show respect
<painslt_VBM> if someone doesn't give me the respect they should give any one, then i withdraw any i might have given them in the future
<ssinnergy> (control has to be given or taken and everyone has different triggers)
<dana^^> there are different levels of respect just as there are of control...
<`abi> in my opinion, the Top has control ... but only because I give it to him or her ... so in a perfectly circular world, we are both in control
<ssinnergy> agreed 'abi
<_dove> i agree abi....... any person can take control, or take control back - at any given time
<kierana{DRFL}> ok abi...that i understand and agree with...
<ssinnergy> hence consensual
<dana^^> lol abi... that said it all...
<`abi> well'd better find something else to say about it, because we still have 40 minutes ;)
<dana^^> omg omg omg
<painslt_VBM> lol
<dana^^> lol
<dana^^> uh..
<dana^^> hmmm
<dana^^> drat
<ssinnergy> LOL
<just_rob> LOL
<`abi> so let's try this .... how easy is it to cede control?
<ssinnergy> succinct, aren't we?
<dana^^> lol
<painslt_VBM> it isn't easy to cede control at all
<_dove> for any length of time - hard, abi
<kierana{DRFL}> it's damn hard in some cases, abi...
<painslt_VBM> i have a heck of a time w/ it sometimes
<`abi> why?
<just_rob> It can be easy to cede but hard to live with.
<ssinnergy> Mmmm sometimes it's better when you have to pullll it out
<catsbrat{CM}> hard in some instances for me
<dana^^> its like a dance at times... when dating... needing to give more control yet holding back not wanting to rush
<just_rob> very well put dana
<ssinnergy> and then that moment when you offer more on faith
<dana^^> its always a leap of faith...
<kierana{DRFL}> hard for me, sometimes, to grant control to Master because i still have walls around some issues, issues that Wwe are dealing with as a couple
<_dove> ceding control has a leap of faith attached to it for me abi. How that control is handled is what makes it easy or hard for me
<ssinnergy> hi Johncin
<`abi> anyone here consider themselves to be control freaks?
<just_rob> *raises hand*
<painslt_VBM> heck no `abi
<painslt_VBM> lol
<painslt_VBM> i'm just the opposite
<dana^^> in alot of ways yes abi... but strangely not when im involved with someone...
<ssinnergy> I/i hold it tight.... makes giving it up sweeter when I/i do (blush)
<kierana{DRFL}> i don't like being in control...except when it comes to have to know bills are
<dana^^> there i simply react where im comfortable... as a submissive
<ssinnergy> agreed dana,
* _dove is a control freak
<`abi> I think that submissives generally exercise alot of control ...
<catsbrat{CM}> in what way abi?
<`abi> if we didn't, we couldn't be submissives
<dana^^> see i dont understand that sinnergy... holding back once you've committed yourself to move forward in a relationship... for me its more about following .... with whatever grace i can muster... lol
<`abi> well catsbrat{CM} ... you recently went away to visit your Master I believe?
<catsbrat{CM}> yes i did
<ssinnergy> dana, I/i meant I give myself totally once "all in"
<dana^^> my misunderstanding ssinnergy... thank you
<`abi> what was the week before you left like?... what kinds of things did you do?
<ssinnergy> but the first time You submit there's a leap involved
<ssinnergy> (hell, same when I/i dom)
<dana^^> that leap of faith... grins...
<catsbrat{CM}> cleaned apt made sure mom would be taken care of packed made arrangements with SM to pick me up in Niagara Falls
<catsbrat{CM}> SM is CM's wife
<ssinnergy> (smiles widely) mmmm....leap
* `abi smiles ... that's the way
<catsbrat{CM}> ahhhhhh ok i understand now
<`abi> and it's only one way
<`abi> there are many others ... if you think of anyone who is in a service position ... the very best ones are always control freaks
<dana^^> use to pack at the last moment... just to pretend i was focused on something... ended up with some strange mixmatched outfits...
<just_rob> agrees
<`abi> someone else determines *what* they want to happen ... if you want to make sure it happens the way they want it to ... you have to be a control freak
<ssinnergy> um, what if you like when someone surprises?
<_dove> If you are in service to someone ssinnergy, it becomes your responsibility to attend to many of the details. It is part of what we do
<jewel`{F}> surprises just test us i think
<kierana{DRFL}> very true, dove...
<ssinnergy> I'i have served, and not as a bratty sub
<`abi> the thing is ssinnergy ... if you're suprising someone ... control ensures that they are good surprises
<dana^^> so would the statement that submissives give as much control as the Dominant needs be too out there?
<`abi> someone who is out of control can't be surprised in a good way and can't offer good surprises
<ssinnergy> I've been very attentive and preparing, and also taken leaps
<`abi> I think they exercise control in different ways dana
<painslt_VBM> so a sub needs to be in control of his/her self & emotions
<painslt_VBM> ?
<`abi> but the idea that 'control' in a submissive is a bad thing ... is I believe a misconception
<dana^^> i agree...
<catsbrat{CM}> i agree
<ssinnergy> Every sub and Dom has a different degree of comfort control don't they
<catsbrat{CM}> as long as the "control" doesn't go too far
<_dove> Where is "too far" catsbrat{CM}?
<ssinnergy> I/i'm still looking for too far... haven't had that much edge oe a longterm yet
<dana^^> absolutely sinnergy... each has to find their own comfort level... and understand that it can change as the relationship grows
<Kalteim> I have and the sub allows the control..but once given it is hard to take away
<dana^^> and hard to take back
<ssinnergy> mmm part of the addiction Kalteim
<Kalteim> very diffucult....that is the beauty
<Kalteim> and the danger
<ssinnergy> also FUN to take back sometimes
<catsbrat{CM}> too far would be Topping from the bottom
<Kalteim> but mixxed is delicious
<_dove> Thanks for clarifying catsbrat{CM}
<catsbrat{CM}> yw
<`abi> topping from the bottom is controlling direction ... and that's not the kind of control that a submissive wants or needs to have
<abitbent> the loss of control is what i take solace in.. so topping from the bottom defeats the whole purpose of what i seek.
<ssinnergy> topping from beneath IS too far, says the switch
<Kalteim> so if that is the case, why are subbies addicticted to being in control, yet not admitting it
<kierana{DRFL}> not all subbies, Kalteim...just some...
<ssinnergy> LOL it's a pickle of a dilemma
* Kalteim smiles
<abitbent> i'd say they are a different kind of subbie Kalteim
<just_rob> It's a hard habit to break, being in control. And there are some aspects of control that get over emphasized
<`abi> because people use words like "admit" Kalteim .. which suggests that it's wrong
<Kalteim> no, all, if they by definition ARE in control, yet wish to relinquish it
<Kalteim> it is not wrong
<dana^^> its like discussing a "point of view" then suddenly realizing... opps... i kinda over did that
<Kalteim> it is just the current beneath the stream
<ssinnergy> see, I/i like both sides of contol
<ssinnergy> unlike some who scorn switches as posers
<Kalteim> switches to Me are confused
<Kalteim> cannot commit to one ideal
<abitbent> i equate switches with bisexuals..
<`abi> because it isn't an 'all or nothing' thing ... control is exercised in many different ways ... some by the submissive and some by the Dominant
* Kalteim smiles
<Kalteim> I think in black and white
<ssinnergy> I/i think part of my switching is just being brave enough to admit you ARE confused
<Kalteim> it is a Man thing
<abitbent> not this Man
<abitbent> :)
<ssinnergy> some f/Folks can't admit to being unclear
* Kalteim nods in understanding of the submissive man
<just_rob> well put ssinnergy
<_dove> i have no problem saying i'm confused or unclear
<`abi> control is only a problem when one person takes away control or exercises control which is not his or hers to take away or to exercise
<Kalteim> well either you are what you can define, or you are not
<Kalteim> it is that simple
<abitbent> i think a switch is defined
<ssinnergy> but I/i still hope to get clear one day lOL
* Kalteim smiles
* kierana{DRFL} *sighs* admitting to being discombobulated again...must be a blonde thing
<`abi> for instance ... I do not control where a scene goes, but I certainly control my mental, physical and emotional preparation for it
<Kalteim> maybe one day it will be clear to Me too
<jewel`{F}> i can define myself quite well, i am me
<abitbent> it only need to be clear to YOU Kalteim..
<Kalteim> ahhh, then you control what you think but not what you do
<jewel`{F}> very clear to me who i am
<dana^^> confusion is my natural state... grins... im just happy understanding myself... and learning more
* Kalteim looks to abitbent
<Kalteim> exactly
<Kalteim> I am gorean
<`abi> if I turn around and say "Master, I believe you should use the pink flogger now" ... then I've attempted to take control which is not mine to take (and it wouldn't work)
<ssinnergy> nice to meetcha jewel
<_dove> i wanna see the pink flogger
<jewel`{F}> nice to meet you too ssinnergy
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> abi, sassy says she wants to see you ask for the pink flogger
<dana^^> pointing politely doesnt either abi... lol
* jewel`{F} agrees with sassy and dove
<`abi> on the other hand ... when I put those floggers back neatly in the case ... I am in complete control of doing that job properly
<ssinnergy> hello Iliana
<Kalteim> why would a submissive or somone that claims that, wish to regain control, which defys the claim she made to the dom initally of being submissive
<Iliana> hi ssinnergy
<ssinnergy> LOL's w/labi
<_dove> Perhaps because she felt she had good reason to take that control back Kalteim
<jewel`{F}> i do agree with those that said that both are in control, as a submissive i have to have control of myself before i can give that control over to anyone else,
<`abi> because acknowledging that I am in control of a great deal does not make me any less submissive
<Kalteim> ahh, then the contol was never given,
<kierana{DRFL}> Kalteim...regaining control in a situation gone bad, is i think an important safety net for subbies
<Kalteim> so being submissive was a lie
<ssinnergy> taking control back is natural.... stasis is a bad 'scene'
* Kalteim shrugs
<Iliana> You speak as though ownership of control is a changeless thing Kal..
<ssinnergy> then You give it up again
<Kalteim> so then is the idea of being a Dom or subbie all a big lie?
<ssinnergy> either to a sub, a Dom or the MTO
<_dove> Kalteim - i have had to take control back, and i really don't think that my submission was a lie.
<ssinnergy> not if it's genuine experience
<Kalteim> was it not, if you had the option
<jewel`{F}> in O/our relationship Fyre is the one in control, but i als have to be in control of myself that i am being the best i can be for Master
<dana^^> if you disagree with your Dominants decision... what do you do?
<abitbent> it's all about compatibility to me really...
<ssinnergy> I/i agree
<Kalteim> being submissive/slave is about giving up your options
<Kalteim> and if you gave that to the right person, it should never have to be revoked
<`abi> I also believe that every time I submit or perform an act of submission I am giving control ... it isn't a <gasp> gift that I give once and never have to give again
<Iliana> perhaps.. but is it giving up your right to saftey and sanity too Kal?
<dana^^> thats it exactly abitbent... same principles... values...
<ssinnergy> Kalteim, life is chaAnge and pain
<jewel`{F}> dana^^ i talk to Him about it, He will listen to my opinion, but in the end the final say is His
<abitbent> that's right dana.. labels can be a silly thing
<Kalteim> you give up that right when you accept the collar
<ssinnergy> Sir
<Kalteim> exactly jewel
<ssinnergy> unle- it ends Jewel
<_dove> thankyou for saying that abi....... i feel it is a choice we make every time
<Kalteim> exactly
<ssinnergy> unless
<just_rob> people change and bad decisions can be made. one has to have the option to change one's mind.
<Kalteim> NO, it is not a choice you make every scene, it is a choice that you have only one time
<ssinnergy> you or the other evolve
<ssinnergy> that doesn't make the past u shared any less real
<`abi> a collar has many meanings ... in my opinion it is recognition of ownership ... that ownership does not negate the continuous exchange of power
<_dove> Kalteim - in my world, it is a choice i make continuously. i am not implying that everyone need follow my path.
* Kalteim smiles at dove
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> agreed abi
<ssinnergy> Kalteim, I/i propose it's di5erent for everyone
<catsbrat{CM}> i agree abi
<kierana{DRFL}> so no matter what changes go on in the relationship...say there is real violence and not play, the subbie has no choice but to stay, because she ONCE gave up control?
<dana^^> thats how i am also jewel... if ive giving my submission to a Dominant, its also because i trust in Their judgement and know they are making an informed decision
<Kalteim> and I respect the way that you live your life, but for Me, I feel like once someone gives their safety and security and life to me, it should never be taken away
<Kalteim> or that choice was invalid in the first place
<jewel`{F}> that ownership also does not make the one that is owned any less responsible for their own actions
<_dove> Or the owner any less responsible, jewel`{F}
<abitbent> wonderful thoughts Kalteim.. and let's hope the mate of your choice shares in that idea.. it's not wrong to think that way.
* Kalteim smiles
<Kalteim> thank you abitbent
<Kalteim> like I said I am Gorean, and hold those ideals close to My heart, so I remain honorable, and expect the same in return
<ssinnergy> I/i'm just too cynical I guess
<Kalteim> aye, I am a trusting soul
<Kalteim> an old soul
<`abi> claiming Gorean status does not give you exclusive rights to 'honour' Kalteim .. nor to the right to define it for anyone but yourself
<ssinnergy> but I/i believe in constant change
<dana^^> you rest you rust...
* Kalteim smiles
<jewel`{F}> to a point dove, if i were to do something stupid out of anger or frustation say like throw a rock through a car window, it was my loss of control of my emotions, my responsibility, not Master's
<Kalteim> My honor is defined not by me but by others wiser than I
<_dove> i agree jewel
<ssinnergy> no tHat's not cynical I/i take it back
<dana^^> i agree jewel...
<ssinnergy> it's hopeful isn't it? that w/we can always change?
<SatinCharm> Tal and greetings all
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> but jewel`{F} your actions directly reflect upon your Master
<Iliana> Tal Satin
<Kalteim> very much so
<ssinnergy> hello SatinCharm (smile)
<_dove> People and relationships evolve - and not always in the ways that we want them to. "Forever" is a fleeting illusion, imo
<Kalteim> if you act out of anger and in a way that is not honoring him, it is his fault, because you 'relinquised' control for that moment, whether he was around or not
<dana^^> doesnt think jewel is a rock throwing girl... grins
<`abi> which is precisely why she is in control of those actions
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Kalteim> forever is defined, and you cannot change that definition
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> and it goes the same for Masters Kalteim. if I act in a dishonorable fashion I bring shame to my girls
<jewel`{F}> Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss} i agree they do, and i would feel horrible were i to have done something like that, but i still feel if He were not there, it would be my responsibilty to be in control of myself so that i am making a good impression of Him
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> agreed jewel`{F}
<Kalteim> no you bring shame to yourself Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}
<Corporal_Punishment{pb_ss}> and those that are mine
<Kalteim> as would I
<`abi> he has determined how he wishes to be seen and how he wishes her to be seen .... and it is her responsibility to reflect that .. she controls that reflection
* Kalteim smiles
<dana^^> smiles...
<_dove> well said abi
<dana^^> yes very well said
<Kalteim> and she did not keep her responsibility
<Kalteim> that is dishonorable
<ssinnergy> I/i love having the responsibility given me to comport myself well
<dana^^> even single folks do that too ssinnergy... smiles...
<Kalteim> but in fact he trusted you with that, keeping his honor and you would have let him down
<jewel`{F}> and were i to so something like that i would be disciplined for it, which is why i try very hard to keep myself under contorl
<`abi> so...then you would agree that in order to be honourable, she must be have control Kalteim
<ssinnergy> and it's important to me to honor a/A' those subsS and Doms who share steps w/me
<Kalteim> no, he must have control of her
<Kalteim> he didnt in that case, so that is His fault
<ssinnergy> what about a Domme Kaltein?
* Kalteim smiles
<Kalteim> that is a different situation
<jewel`{F}> but if i am not in His physical presence i have to maintain control of myself
<`abi> but you said that she must keep his honour? ... control herself and not let him down
<Kalteim> Domme's in My humble opinion are only Domme's because the Men around her allow it
* Iliana chuckles
<ssinnergy> ouch
<Kalteim> that is a thing that is highly questioned, but it is My belief
<Miss_Kristaz> Pardon
<ssinnergy> gotta disagree there
<`abi> that's not such a humble opinion Kalteim
<Kalteim> I understand
<Kalteim> but it is Mine
<_dove> oh boy
<abitbent> exactly the reason Gor doesn't fit into my sexuality as it does for others.
<dana^^> i think we are saying the same thing... the submissive is responsible for her behaviour
* Kalteim nods
<dana^^> or his.. grins
<Kalteim> and that is ok
<kierana{DRFL}> inMho...subs are subs because we allow Dom/mes to be Dom/mes!
<Kalteim> I am here because I respect all opinions
<ssinnergy> sounds disrespectful to me (Domme's are real not fairytales)
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Miss_Kristaz> I am Domme not because men around me allow it