December 23, 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time to get started...
<Sir_Carl> Both together is a nice combo.
<Opal``> someone in love must have picked the topic
<suzq{CK}> yes it is Sir_Carl
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic channel message that reads as follows:
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Love and BDSM". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
* Omy breaks out the karaoke machine and begins his Tina Turner impression What's looooove got to do with it
<BernieRoehl> So, anyone have any opening thoughts?
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
<Sir_Carl> Both together is nice.
* BernieRoehl nods
<Sir_Carl> But I can play with someone I like.
<Sir_Carl> Can't love EVERYBODY I play with.
<BernieRoehl> True enough. I think many (most? all?) of us can play with people we're not in love with
<Omy> I'd have to agree with that Bernie
<Sir_Carl> It's good to at least like them.
<BernieRoehl> So love is not an absolute prerequisite for BDSM
<Omy> I however do have to trust the person
* BernieRoehl nods
<Sir_Carl> Trust is esential.
<BernieRoehl> Do people find that an intense D/s relationship can produce emotions, feelings that lead to love?
<Sir_Carl> I trust whomever I'm playing with not to mislead me about what they want.
<Sir_Carl> Lead to something that can be mistaken for love.
<Sir_Carl> But very intense.
<BernieRoehl> So the feelings produced by D/s can be misleading?
<Omy> When your dealing with the emotions and mental aspects at the level we do in BDSM, over time feelings can develop I suppose..It really depends on what is agreed to in the negotiatin
<Sir_Carl> I feel love needs to be developed and nurtured seapretly.
<oasis{Omy}> i think males and females see sexual interaction differently.. females are notoriously emtional...
<Sir_Carl> It's too easy to mistake good play for feelings leading to love.
<swannie^^> it seems to me that you are just separating the depth of the emotions not the emotion itself
* Sir_Carl scratches his head.
<Omy> Well I think the difference Sir_Carl is that one can confuse the love of playing with a certain person vs the love of that person
<Sir_Carl> Exactly.
<Sir_Carl> And it's important to not get them mixed up intellectually.
<Opal``> if only love were so rational
* Omy smiles at the doorway as she kicks peer in the shins
<Sir_Carl> The intense feelings play engenders can lead to an impulse to skip over the bonding that's necessary for mature love.
<Omy> If it were Opal, it wouldn't be worth having
<BernieRoehl> So what about "true love"? How is it different from the emotions that good D/s (or just plain good SM) produce?
* oasis{Omy} smiles as she returns to her Masters feet
<swannie^^> love can be very rational
<Sir_Carl> True love is based on deeper understanding and bonding.
<`abi> "true" love Bernie? ... isn't that like trying to define "true" submission or "true" dominance?
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps :-)
<Opal``> yes.. but true love requires patience and gosh.. it can be hard work
<Sir_Carl> A good play session doesn't resolve where the toothpaste gets squeezed.
<Omy> The difference Bernie is that in a scene..its just play..your only seeing one aspect of the person. Your usually seeing them at their best
<`abi> lol...neither does love SirCarl!
<oasis{Omy}> everyone seeks out true love often being disapointed.. we need love ourselves first and accept our partner without trying to change them..
<Sir_Carl> True, and D/s can determine who gets to decide about the toothpaste.
<oasis{Omy}> gawd help you if you leave the toilet seat up
<Sir_Carl> Having been there, I can testify !
<Omy> I don't agree Sir_Carl..not on the specific but on the unerlying premise
<Sir_Carl> Yeah, the dog drinks out of it.
<Opal``> then i must not be sub.. because *i* decide about the toothpaste
<BernieRoehl> So is love mostly about toothpaste and toilet seats? :-)
<Omy> In any relationship, D/s or not, there has to be comprimise. There is no other way to do it.
<`abi> I never understood why everyone didn't just get their own tube of toothpaste
<Sir_Carl> Sometimes.
<Omy> What toilet seats Bernie...I give oasis a cup to piss in ;)
<Opal``> love is living with their very very annoying habits
<Sir_Carl> Separate tubes is sometimes the solution.
* BernieRoehl smiles
<swannie^^> this is a hard topic because there are many levels of love, many types and many degrees as well as many variances in the length of time one professes to love somebody else
* rhiannon{KO} waves hello to A/all.
<oasis{Omy}> well why does it have to be love not just friends enjoying the D/s experience shareing growing on the moment
<Sir_Carl> It can, but then it's love we're talking about.
<BernieRoehl> I think the toothpaste/toilet seat/sharing life/time/space issues are important, but I'm curious how people feel about romantic love and how it relates to a D/s relationship...?
<Opal``> lol... if i waited for love i would never play
<Sir_Carl> Helps/complicates.
<BernieRoehl> Helps in what way, and complicates in what way?
<swannie^^> i was in a slave relationship for 6 years....i loved deeply ....was not loved back
<Opal``> one day they will have a pill for that swannie
<Sir_Carl> Helps in getting to know on a deeper level what works for the people.
<swannie^^> *laughing* OPal they do's called cyanide .....
<swannie^^> but ...
<swannie^^> not worth it ...
<Omy> Let's face it and I areTops and have women bottoms..who by their nature love all things romantic (for the most part)
<Sir_Carl> Complicates when the dynamic of the BDSM complictaes the negotiation of everyday life.
* BernieRoehl chuckles at swannie's slightly jaded comment
<Opal``> to my mind romantic love involves a large dose of lust... always fun combined with D/s
<Sir_Carl> And complicates sometimes when somebody says to themselves ' how can I hit someone I love'.
<jewel`{F}> i think it is more realistic to find real or true love with in the lifestyle because the relationships have to be based on open & honest comunication
<swannie^^> that is what ruined my relationship
<`abi> I'm not sure that love of all things romantic is the solely a female thing
<swannie^^> he fell in love with me
<Sir_Carl> I agree about the communication.
<Sir_Carl> After you've negotiated everything from anal to xenophylia, what's some toothpaste ?
<BernieRoehl> A number of tops have mentioned that very issue, Sir_Carl -- that love keeps them from being as nasty and intense as they would be otherwise
<Opal``> is that a bad thing?
<`abi> and some have argued that it is what allows them to be nasty and intense Bernie
<Sir_Carl> But I love being nasty, when it brings pleasure to her.
<oasis{Omy}> trust and similar interests.. if you can laugh together .. palying cmes easily
<BernieRoehl> Is which a bad thing, Opal?
<Opal``> that love keeps them from being as nasty and intense as they would be otherwise
<Omy> Okay Bernie...let's ask oasis...she's been with me over a year now.
<BernieRoehl> So when your partner fell in love with you, swannie, you feel it changed the relationship?
<Sir_Carl> I am much more comfortable with intense play with someone I know well.
<swannie^^> well as most know it was a long distance relationship .....
<Omy> oasis, am I any less nasty or intense since we first met? Answer honestly
<swannie^^> we would see eachother about every 6 weeks
<BernieRoehl> It depends, I think, on whether the submissive needs more nastiness and intensity than she/he is getting
<swannie^^> but as his feelings grew...
<jewel`{F}> as parents to W/we stop punishing or correcting O/our children because W/we love them?
<swannie^^> the time between visits grew longer and longer
<swannie^^> and yes .....i think he tried to avoid me
<Opal``> yes.. it is a drag when you crave something more intense than your partner can give
<Sir_Carl> I've seen this often in others.
<oasis{Omy}> you have evolved found my weak points and attack them.. if need be.. you would do what had to be done.. not holding back..
<swannie^^> i only needed and wanted to please him ...i didn't care how that was to be intensity was gained only by pleasing ...pleasing gave me the pleasure...
<Sir_Carl> I've not been in a significant ldr- but don't they often fade because of the money required to commute/communicate ?
<swannie^^> it was and is not a problem for him ...
<Omy> I dunno Carl, I've been with oasis a year now...and its been a hindrance at times...but not a problem
<BernieRoehl> Shifting focus slightly... from SM to D/s, if you will... some Doms say they find themselves being more lenient and forgiving with someone they love than with someone they don't. Has anyone here experienced that, on either side?
<Sir_Carl> What sort of distance ??
<swannie^^> but you don't have to travel from Europe every 6 weeks
<Sir_Carl> Lenient, yes. Understanding their daily woes.
<Sir_Carl> That is a schlep.
<swannie^^> *laughing* yep could say that
<swannie^^> now for the topic ...
<swannie^^> our love changed ...
<Omy> I would say Bernie that I have given oasis a little mor ebenefit of the doubt then I might others. Depends on what they did. Somethings I would recat in the same maner
<Sir_Carl> I get shares in Shell and Bell Canada, you in Air Canada.
<swannie^^> and so did the basis of our relationship ......
<Sir_Carl> Changed how ?
<swannie^^> we were not friends.......
<swannie^^> i was his slave
<swannie^^> he was always there for me
<swannie^^> always cared for me
<`abi> I don't know about more lenient Bernie ... I think that as discipline becomes less of a roleplay and more real ... it becomes more meaningful
<oasis{Omy}> thinks love at times brings about different twists.. the suspension of disbelief.. a bit of the edge"fear" lessons
<swannie^^> but now the friendship and the respect are the basis of our relationship and i will always be friends with him and always respect and love him ...just in a different way
<Sir_Carl> Contrary to popular belief, I have had partners in the past who I am still friends with. It's ver nice.
<swannie^^> i think that says a lot for you
* Sir_Carl smiles !
<BernieRoehl> So love and BDSM can work well together
<swannie^^> that was one of the things that drew me to him in the first place....the fact that he still cared for the two other slaves he had over the years...
<Sir_Carl> Sharing accomodation/lives/children also takes the edge off some of the D/s play.
<Omy> It is always best to part as friends
<BernieRoehl> Yes, is it possible that the edge, the fear, is never as strong once you're sharing a partially-vanilla life with someone?
<Opal``> i think they can Bernie
<Sir_Carl> Best to have a good start on the love first.
<BernieRoehl> So start with love, and build in the D/s?
<Sir_Carl> And you've done some things already - not as much new territory.
<BernieRoehl> What about the other direction? Have people had success with that as well?
<swannie^^> start with friendship and ensure that it ends that way as well
<swannie^^> if it must end
<Omy> I've tried that route Bernie and it dodn't work for me.
<Omy> err didn't
<Sir_Carl> It's tough to slow down and get back to love things when you're playing.
<Sir_Carl> Developing a proper basis for mature love takes more work than good play.
<BernieRoehl> So the D/s takes over, and it's hard to ease back into regular romantic/vanilla love?
<`abi> I think it depends on what kind of relationship you are trying to build ... not everyone is looking for a picket fence and a station wagon ... love exists in other kinds of relationships as well
<Sir_Carl> D/s is the most powerful locamotive I've ever driven.
<BernieRoehl> And does it take different forms, abi? Is there perhaps a fundamental difference in the kind of love people find in a D/s relationship vs the kind they find sharing a picket fence and a station wagon?
<`abi> it's given me one helluva caboose Sir_Carl :)
<Sir_Carl> It's easy to gloss over the relationship problems if the play works.
<Sir_Carl> Have I ever seen 'abi's caboose ?
<Sir_Carl> Everyone has seen mine.
<`abi> lol...once or twice SirCarl, but not up close
<swannie^^> no not everybody
<BernieRoehl> I think most people have, Sir_Carl (*smiles at abi*) :-)
<la_voix_damour> nope i didn't.. but yet i just go here *smile*
<Sir_Carl> Talk to my agent, Bernie. Next birthday.
<`abi> Yes Bernie, I suspect there is ... at least to some extent ... although I don't think they are necessarily completetly mutually exclusive
<jewel`{F}> i have found that the love that i have now in my D/s relationship is much more than that of the vanilla marriage that i had
<swannie^^> but jewel is the the DS or is that the relationship ...
<aelya> i would have to agree with abi on that one, i don't see them as being mutually exclusive at all...i have found that they are intertwined
<la_voix_damour> i agree jewel`{F} sis... D/s relationships are deeper then marriage...
<Sir_Carl> Best when intertwined.
<jewel`{F}> it is the trust & honesty that W/we have
<BernieRoehl> So you find that the picket fence love and the D/s love are the same for you, aelya?
* jewel`{F} smiles at her Master
<swannie^^> but was that lacking because of vanilla or because of the relationship
<aelya> not the same, but no two peoples love is the same
* BernieRoehl nods
* Fyre{j} smiles and nods to His girl
<aelya> it is the same in many ways, yet different, deeper, better in my mind
* Sir_Carl agrees.
<aelya> it is whatever satisfies you and your partner, to make YOUR love stronger
<lovelydevilcunt> :)
<aelya> i personally dont want a picket fence, so that would not make me happy, or any more loving of a person...but you have to remember you are in love with the person, not the lifestyle
<jewel`{F}> it was lacking because of the lack of comunication
<Sir_Carl> Has anybody met someone who wanted the training/rituals of BDSM to substitute for interpersonal communication and compromise ?
<la_voix_damour> there is time for D/s love and then vanilla love... but overall... if One is willing to take control no matter what the control is given to that One.. and the other willing to gift.. no matter how it's looked at.. the " Love without dout, and total devotion" has to be there...
<la_voix_damour> and to me.... " True Love" is in the D/s realtionship...
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> I've seen just about every variation work for various people at different times
* jewel`{F} agrrees with la_voix_damour
<swannie^^> okay la_voix_damour ....what if your DS true love wanted to have a vanilla relationship ....that is what would give your Dom/me the most pleasure ...
<swannie^^> would you leave the relationship?
<BernieRoehl> There are those who only find true love in a D/s relationship, and there are those who believe the two are fundamentally incompatible
<aelya> you can love a person dearly, and not be happy with them. There is a difference between being in love with someone, and just loving someone
* `abi is reading a book which presents the concept of "Love as Thou Wilt" ... meaning, that perhaps we should just accept it for what it is ... sometimes the hardest thing of all to do
* Sir_Carl nods.
<la_voix_damour> if my D/s true love wanted vanilla realtionship.. then i would have to say .. it's not a true love D/s realtionship
* BernieRoehl likes that concept, abi
<swannie^^> so it is no longer a true love
<Sir_Carl> To thine own self be true.
<swannie^^> that is the concept i am having trouble getting my head around...
<la_voix_damour> agree's whit aelya
<swannie^^> i am happiest in a DS relationship
* Sir_Carl agrees.
<Sir_Carl> I used to aproximately 'alternate' nilla and D/s.
<Sir_Carl> 'nilla was missing something.
<swannie^^> but did you love your nilla partner
<victoria_angel> swannie - are you talking about a 'vanilla' by day, D/s by night?
<swannie^^> and did the love change because of the feeling of loss
<swannie^^> or lack
<BernieRoehl> I think many of us have left the vanilla world behind. I wonder what elements of it (such as romantic love) we want to hold on to
<Sir_Carl> Love didn't seem as deep.
<la_voix_damour> passion.. wantes.. and to exployed the darking and loving side of one's true desirer .. is that i think vanilla is missing....
<aelya> i have found that in vanilla relationships the openness and trust just aren't as appaarent. In the D/s relationship one has to express their needs, wants, and desires explicitly whereas in a vanilla relationship they are more obscured.
<Sir_Carl> I haven't had any inpulse to date out of the scene in years.
<swannie^^> no i am trying to understand if we are talking about loving the person but unhappy with aspects of the relationship or are we in love with the lifestyle
<aelya> (pardon my spelling/typing errors)
<LordDragon> good evening all sorry i am late
<Sir_Carl> The trust and communication the lifestyle brings help the 'nilla aspect of the love.
<Sir_Carl> 2 demerits !
<swannie^^> i don't have any desire to date outside the lifestyle ....
<swannie^^> but
<Sir_Carl> ???
<swannie^^> we see it all the time ....
<swannie^^> husbands and wives who cheat ...
<swannie^^> cause they love their partner deeply
<Sir_Carl> I've seen people take a 'break'.
<swannie^^> and found that they needed bdsm in their lives...
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I've known many who have taken a break and then come back
<la_voix_damour> i have no choise to date outside... but then again.. i introduce the lifestyle to the one i'm dating if it's serious enough.. and belive me... the are fasinated... give them " Screw the rose give me the thorns " Book to read
<aelya> but if they dont trust their partner enough to tell them, do they really love them in that instance?
<BernieRoehl> I also know some who tried to give it up entirely, and then came back
<Sir_Carl> It's a small community, and sometimes it gets a bit 'heated'.
<BernieRoehl> How do they react, la_voix_damour?
<swannie^^> only they can answer that aelya
* aelya nods slowly
<Sir_Carl> Dangerous ground.
<la_voix_damour> well.. intrigue.. full of questions.... and willing to learn... and miss guided by the term " BDSM"
<swannie^^> <--------wants it all but has to answer a page
<Sir_Carl> I want a page in my court.
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> Okay, we have about ten minutes left
* aelya giggles
<Sir_Carl> Home streach.
<BernieRoehl> Any other thoughts on love and BDSM?
<la_voix_damour> and after ten minutes ... what happen?
<Fyre{j}> As a dominant, you learn how to respect limits, its never more apparent than in a vanilla relationship that limits are sometimes harder to define, but that same respect must be tendered. While we define our D/s relationships with trust and communication, those aspects transcend both the vanilla and D/s world. Love is the emotional glue that binds most relationships that exist for more than just physical pleasure.
<BernieRoehl> Any good experiences combining the two? Any bad ones?
<LordDragon> i find i need it in my life now that i have been exposed to it
<Sir_Carl> Goes together like a horse and carriage.
<BernieRoehl> We can keep talking, la_voix_damour, but the "official" discussion wraps up
<LordDragon> it influences how i look at relationships
<la_voix_damour> there is always a sprinkle of bdsm in a vinalla realtionship.... E/everyone has been tied down in the sexual way... S/someone has always had agreed to do want the other want's... S/someone has always let the O/other take over some situation or another.. right? *smile*
* BernieRoehl momentarily takes off his moderator cap and notes that he's very happy in his relationship, and believes that love and D/s can indeed be combined
* BernieRoehl puts his moderator cap back on
<aelya> not everyone la_voix_damour
* la_voix_damour nods and smile's
<la_voix_damour> oh? no?
<aelya> no
<aelya> i know many who believe in things to be spilt nearly 50/50
<la_voix_damour> hmmmmm.... i do have to say.. i'm surprised
<aelya> without even the slightest kinky encounter
<aelya> i would say its boring, and eventually they may try one thing or another
<la_voix_damour> may try and once they do... there you have it.. right aelya?
* aelya nods
<aelya> they might come to their senses ;)
* la_voix_damour smiles
<BernieRoehl> Just a matter of waiting them out, aelya :-)
<LordDragon> you think?
<la_voix_damour> true enough aelya ...
<la_voix_damour> lol... i think so..
<aelya> most people i know are young yet, as am i, so they'll get there eventually i hope
<victoria_angel> i agree with Bernie, love can be combined with D/s and that situations can influence the depth of the love, and affect the D/s
* la_voix_damour nods
<LordDragon> this has influenced me to the point i gave up one gf to get another that is into bdsm
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're just about out of time
<BernieRoehl> Unless anyone has any sudden new insights, let's wrap up the formal part of the discussion
* BernieRoehl pauses, looks around
<BernieRoehl> Okay, cool :-)
<Sir_Carl> And get informal ?
<LordDragon> i look at love and bdsm as being side by side in my life
* aelya smirks
* la_voix_damour smiles
<BernieRoehl> Thank you everyone for participating in tonight's discussion
* Sir_Carl smiles around !
<BernieRoehl> We won't be doing one next week, but we'll be back on the first Sunday of 2002!
<la_voix_damour> i'm glad i join in to this channel... it was great!
<BernieRoehl> I should have the log of this discussion uploaded and processed soon
<BernieRoehl> Welcome aboard, la_voix_damour!
<LordDragon> i am too now that i finally have it
<la_voix_damour> thank You BernieRoehl *smile*
<aelya> evening SamMM
<LordDragon> thank you bernie
<BernieRoehl> Have a good night, everyone!
<la_voix_damour> hiya SamMM *smile*
<suzq{CK}> Merry Christmas and nite Bernie :)
<swannie^^> have wonderful holidays Bernie
<`abi> night Bernie ... hugz and Merry Christmas to sarah too!
<jewel`{F}> Merry Christmas A/all
<SamMM> hi all
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, abi! I'll give her a big hug for you
<la_voix_damour> Joyeux Noel BernieRoehl... *smile*