December 19 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> I think we'll start our discussion and let people join in as they arrive

<`abi> Our topic tonight is "Too old, too young...age issues". Please feel free to join in, but kindly refrain from Walton-style hi-byes until the discussion ends at 10 pm. Raptor is the recommended server to avoid lag. Be advised that our discussions are logged for posting to the ebhc website. If you wish to remain anonymous, please change your nick before joining the discussion.

<`abi> Young and old are of course relative terms...determined somewhat by where you are in our own life

<`abi> but thre do seem to be some recurring themes related to age and our lifestyle and that's what we're going to explore tonight

<anonymous-chesterrrr> by age issues here are we talking about the 18+ rules for dalnet rooms?

<`abi> anyone have any comments that they'd like to kick off with?

<`abi> not exactly chester....more like how our age affects how we carry out our lifestyle

<Kilted_One> how about do you think there is a difference between the sexes with age

<`abi> what kind of differences KO?

<anonymous-chesterrrr> ahhhh, well i'd have to venture that a younger age bracket might be a bit more experimental whereas with experience one would tend to settle into certain kinks and stuff

<Kilted_One> that was my question....any differences...any at all

<`abi> not sure what you mean KO ....differences between men and women or differences between young women and older women, younger men and older men?

<en{TW}> it seems to be more "acceptable" for subs (of either sex) to be younger...than it is for doms

<shoshin{MK}> i guess what sort of hit me was the thing about being a cyber sub & Doms getting a mental picture of me.. i rather expected r/t Doms to expect me to live up to the fantasy .. but so far i have been pleasantly surprised at the wide age range i have found in the local area

<Kilted_One> all of the above abigaille

<`abi> expectations are a big part of it shoshin..our own and others ... why do you think we have these preconceived notions about how it will be?

<anonymous-chesterrrr> wow...this is gonna be a funky 5-threaded discussion ;)

<shoshin{MK}> i think the media have given us the notion that to be sexual means one has to be young.. that more mature (out of prime child bearing age) folk aren't to be sexual so we buy it

<`abi> let's follow up en's comment...I often hear young Dom/mes complain that they aren't taken this a legitimate concern?

<KarenD> it depends on who they want to be taken seriously with?

<en{TW}> most of the s/m stuff you see outside of the scene depicts georgeous young girls with mean or nasty looking older men

<`abi> and you're finding that not to be the case in the BDSM community shoshin?

<en{TW}> i think it is legitamite in *most* cases...not all

<elbowfetish> Who thinks young people should be protected from kink?

<Kilted_One> is that young Dom/mes, or old Dom/mes that are inexperienced?

<`abi> why might it be legitimate en? ... does it have to do with experience or attitude?

<shoshin{MK}> well i can only speak of the local group i am getting to know.. no.. the age thing doesn't seem to be such a big deal

<en{TW}> both...

<`abi> so what approach can a younger Dominant take? ... how might they be taken more seriously?

<anonymous-chesterrrr> i think there's that connection between sub and Dom that's formed after a fair bit of time, maybe first impressions would inhibit people getting to know each other just because they might be thinking, ok, you're 10 years younger than me, what can you show me anyways

<KarenD> well, personally, smartasses of any age annoy me....but they seem to dwell more often in the younger ages....a younger Dom could try to take life more seriously...

<en{TW}> i think a new Dom/me whether they be young or old should have a certain "time in" with a mentor or something

<shoshin{MK}> en..i agree heartily with you on that one

<en{TW}> but i tend to agree with the old guard theory in that sense

<en{TW}> i know not all agree

* `Hardest is insanely jealous of younger people not having to take life so seriously

<en{TW}> i have had problems with people assuming things about me and TW because of my age...

<en{TW}> so i understand how these things can be based on stereotypes

<`abi> you and TW have a fair age difference en ... something which isn't uncommon in this lifestyle...any thoughts on why that might be?

<en{TW}> why the age difference?

<`abi> sort of en ... why is a wide age difference common in our lifestyle? .. any thought?

<anonymous-chesterrrr> i think the biggest difference in age comes in that people tend to get more settled (ie married) towards their later years and so there's obviously going to be a difference in how they approach bdsm

<en{TW}> in my case...a few reasons; He has the expereince that i was looking for....

<en{TW}> i am and have always been attracted to older men....may be partly because of the "authority figure" thing that i like

<`abi> does that work in reverse? .... do older submissives offer more experience...and is that an attractive quality?

<shimmer{S-E}> men mature later ... :)

<en{TW}> He isn't just trying to do something "different" from His friends

<en{TW}> and He has more basic life experience...and THAT i can trust better

<en{TW}> yes, they do shimmer!

<en{TW}> i think it can be depending on the Dom/mes frame of mind

<shimmer{S-E}> i find i have little in common with men my own age. They just don't "get it"

<en{TW}> some are threatened by an experienced sub

* Kilted_One hasnt matured yet ;) still an early wine

<en{TW}> some repsect it and enjoy it

<shimmer{S-E}> yes, but a fine one, KO Sir ;)

<anonymous-chesterrrr> heh...although wouldn't there also be that thrill of teaching a subbie right from their start

<`abi> what kind of issues do younger submissives face?

<en{TW}> lots!

<shoshin{MK}> in cyber i played with Doms from 19 yr up.. but in r/t i know there will be more than play, i want SomeOne i can talk to, have things in common with so i gravitate toward the Doms more my generation

<elbowfetish> There's fun and work both in training/educating newbies.

<elbowfetish> Sometimes you want to start right in assuming more.

<en{TW}> assumptions that i am looking for a "sugar daddy"...or that i am trying to "rebel"

<anonymous-chesterrrr> being a younger subbie...i don't think that bdsm is a prime motivation in what i want from a relationship, although i certainly hope that it is part of it

* Kilted_One thinks that it is very easy to stereotype ppl and forget that we are all individuals....

<en{TW}> many assume that i don't and cannot understand submission

<`abi> so other people's perceptions are a problem...what about real problems...are younger submissives more vulnerable, do they know what they want, are they less likely to stay in relationships?

<elbowfetish> More experienced people have more sensitive spots, from bad experiences.

<en{TW}> they may be more vulnerable only in that they may lack experience in relationships in general

<Kilted_One> we al bring different things to the table and we are all looking for something different....ppl even see us differently depending on what expereiences they have had

<en{TW}> the other issues i don't think are a problem for most...any more than they are for any age group

<elbowfetish> Age effects health, and health effects play.

<elbowfetish> But that's not very interesting for this discussion.

<`abi> we touched briefly on the idea of younger Dominants being mentored by more experienced more mature submissives have a role to play in mentoring younger submissives?

<en{TW}> all my bad experiences were pre-bdsm and i don't think experience necessaily matters in the baggeage issue

<shoshin{MK}> i enjoy going to munches & brunches because i can listen to & learn from (as a r/t newbie) ppl of all ages & levels of experience

<en{TW}> i think so...yes abi

<`abi> in what ways en?

* Kilted_One thinks that the r/l interactions that we all have helps us to grow and learn

<en{TW}> well, i think it is a good idea for anyone new to have someone they can relate to....not only their "dom/me" if they have one....obviously a more experienced person can give that

<en{TW}> but i also think they can get a lot from other newbies

<`abi> a good point KO ... hopefully none of us stop learning ... at any age

<en{TW}> sometimes i do forget how it is to be brand new...and can;t relate

<en{TW}> so...everyone has something to offer

<en{TW}> new, experienced, young, old, dom/me, sub

<en{TW}> and vanilla

<Kilted_One> I think your question was "do we benifit from more fucused or deliberate coaching"

<`abi> I think you raised a valid point elbowfetish ... if this is a lifestyle which indeed lasts a lifetime .... health and mobility issues are very real factors

<elbowfetish> You have to be aware of the health of your sub, or dom, but independent of age.

<`abi> how many people consider health-related questions (like, how good is your back) when they negotiate scenes

<shoshin{MK}> abi, at 20 i was a dancer & could get my body into some pretty interesting positions.. at 50 if i try those same positions it would take the jaws of life to get me out *s*

<en{TW}> me

<elegantsarah> I do.....I have a terrible back and won't consider things that might put too much stress on it

<elbowfetish> I never think of health issues at first, unless brought to my attention.

* Kilted_One considers health issued all the time when he is DM'ing

<`abi> and what about the non-physical aspects of they get easier or more difficult with age?

<elbowfetish> Harder to be subbie as you're more mature and wise, no?

* `abi smiles...I would say "no" elbowfetish ... but what do others think?

<elbowfetish> I know lots of folk start off sub then grow into dom.

<elbowfetish> That's experience, but thaT ties with age.

<elegantsarah> I am 45, and fairly new to this particularly in the public sphere.....I have had some problem with giving up control even though it is something that I may desire....old habits die hard

<shoshin{MK}> well i find it is as much a part of me as breathing.. so i don't know, am too much of a newbie to have any way to compare

<Kilted_One> if you follow the old guard elbowfetish then that is the only path available

<`abi> It's pretty easy to say ..."age doesn't matter" ... but let's look at how the things we consider most important are affected by age

<elbowfetish> I was always a good book learner, myself. :-)

<`abi> what's at the top of the list of "important" things in this lifestyle?

<shoshin{MK}> trust

<elbowfetish> And a strong spanking arm?

<`abi> okay ... trust....easier or more difficult with age?

<elbowfetish> Seriously, creative imagination is key for doms.

<Kilted_One> connections....gotta connect with your partner

<Kilted_One> and dont care what the age

<AgedWine> safety is to me.

<shoshin{MK}> i have to say harder, life experience has taught me not to trust, to question motives, to be ready for One to walk out on me

<`abi> but is connecting easier to do as we mature KO ... or is it easier to open when you're younger?

<elbowfetish> It's easier to connect with someone with the same shared experience.

<Kilted_One> I think you mean "relate" elbowfetish... there is a substantial difference

<elbowfetish> Maybe different rather than easier.

<elbowfetish> Instead of wild romantic, unrealistic connections, you get better expectations?

<`abi> different in what ways elbowfetish?

<abigaille> do you think that younger submissives and Dominants have different expectations from more mature ones?

<KelvOden> I dont think age has much of a bearing either connect or you dont

* abigaille nods to KO ... true, many things factor into "connecting"

<elbowfetish> Tiia's just-a-munch is a generally older group.

<elbowfetish> quite happy, cheerful, and more relaxed, than eager excitable kids.

<elbowfetish> Kids are too serious.

<abigaille> I've talked to many people who seem to have "discovered" this side of themselves at a later time in their lives, 40's, 50's even...any thoughts as to why that may be?

<shimmer{S-E}> now there's a generalization

<en{TW}> i really think most of these issues are experience issues

<en{TW}> not age issues

<en{TW}> is there anyone here who began exploring s/m before their adulthood?

<LrdThomas> from mho, connecting, is a dom laying out who he is, his philosophy, and what he wants from a power exchange relationship. then the connecting will occur from a more mature, truthful basis.

<shoshin{MK}> i find the Steelfet group tend mostly to be ppl of my age.. it makes me very comfortable about myself.. my age, my body image, but i certainly enjoy listening to the younger Dom/mes & subs share T/their experiences

<elbowfetish> I'm 35, btw, I can go both ways, agewise. :-)

* KO_ raises his hand ....I did

<elbowfetish> I got in around puberty, my kink grew with the rest of me.

<abigaille> so you would have been "experienced" at an earlier age than some KO ... do you think that makes a difference in how you are perceived or in your own personal expectations?

<en^> what age do you mean elbow?

<elbowfetish> Post high school, I matured late (I'm a guy, eh).

<en^> no, no i meant when you were talking about kids being less calm and relaced

<Kilted_One> I first tied a girlfriend up when I was about 12-13 dont remember that far back well....but I must say at the time I didnt know what the "rush" was all about

<en^> relaxed

<abigaille> so what aspects of this lifestyle became easier as you matured elbowfish? ...or more difficult?

<en^> i got involved at a bad relationship...but it was bdsm

<elbowfetish> 20somethings have more excitement to them, very serious.

<elbowfetish> 30somthings are less of a pain. ;-)

<elegantsarah> I was interetsted in my thirties, my ex was not

<elbowfetish> A lot of folks get in after retirement, more time and money free.

<en^> lol, my Master is 41 and as excited as i am, thank goodness

<Kilted_One> abigaille I think that most ppl "assume" your level of experience based on what they see (little bits here are there) and what they are conditioned to think it means

<shoshin{MK}> elbowfetish, i think that having kids all grown up & gone has something to do with the post retirement entry

<elbowfetish> Confidence shows.

<abigaille> true KO ... and age and experience don't necessarily go hand in hand in this lifestyle ... there are many newbies in their late 30's and 40's

<elbowfetish> Age and kids. Before and after you have more freedom.

<Kilted_One> thanks to the internet I think

<en^> i agree KO!

<shoshin{MK}> abigaille.. and 50's *raising my ahnd*

<shoshin{MK}> oops ... hand

* abigaille smiles ... and 50's shoshin ... lots of them :)

<shoshin{MK}> en.. *nodding agreement* i started online

<atime> what do kids have to do with it they hgave been around since... athe beginning

<SkyDom> I started in my 20's before there were even bulletin boards.

* Kilted_One would agree that a lot of ppl have realized their inner self through meeting like minded ppl on the internet

<elbowfetish> When you have kids at home, you can't play so freely.

<en^> i am glad i started so young, because i found myself at 23 knowing the risks already...and knowing what i wanted...prepared

<TechnoMage> as for myself - I've had an interest for 20 years, but only recently thru the internet discovered that it was *OK* to have these interests...

<elbowfetish> I found bdsm on the net in '84

<Kilted_One> I wonder if the type only aspect of irc helps bridge the age gap any?

<abigaille> what do you think will change for you en as you grow older if anything?

<en^> definately KO

<elbowfetish> No, irc

<elbowfetish> is too hard to figure out. :-)

<en^> my limits....

<anonymous-chesterrr> i've got to admit that irc is what got me involved in actually learning more about bdsm and not just looking for fantasies and such

<shoshin{MK}> made me relise that age has nothing to do with level of experience..

<en^> my interests within bdsm

<en^> my understanding of myself

<en^> i am prepared for many changes :)

<abigaille> do you think that's because we can shed some of those "preconceived" notions about age here KO?

<Kilted_One> I think to a large degree ppl mistake "experience" for poise dont you think??

<en{TW}> TW and i didn't know each others age til we met...after talking every night for almost 3 months

<elbowfetish> I like fetish fahion. Models are usually younger.

<Kilted_One> most definately abigaille

<shoshin{MK}> KO, how so?

<elbowfetish> Stay silent and nobody will know how much you don't know.

<Kilted_One> well if I act well and I put on a good show in public then I am experienced right?.....or do I just have poise and style??

<LrdThomas> ya just got lucky KO. <wink>

<shoshin{MK}> elbowfetish.. there is an old saying, "better to be silent & be thought a fool than to open your mouth & remove all doubt".. i still haven't gotten that lesson down pat

<anonymous-chesterrr> i think it's fairly easy to sterotype people off irc into age groups because of what they say just because we're so used to having this kind of background info in r/l conversations

<Kilted_One> ohh with who Thomas?? ;)

<shoshin{MK}> KO.. oh ok.. i see what You mean

<en{TW}> i have noticed something interesting....and i wonder what it is really about....

<abigaille> do we get more comfortable or less comfortable with who and what we are as we age? ... or is it irrelevant?

<elbowfetish> More comfortable, almost universally.

<en{TW}> many Doms want younger it because they want to lust after a young girl? or is it because they enjoy "training new subs" or is it because they are more "vulnerable and trusting" (percieved of course)

<atime> we get more comfortrable

<SkyDom> much more comfy

<anonymous-chesterrr> i'm pretty comfortable with who i am and i'm pretty young, so i guess i can't say from experience then

<Kilted_One> all of the above en ;)

<TechnoMage> life is a process of discovering who we are...

<Kilted_One> ohh did I mention that we are just pigs as well ;) cause we are ;)

<elbowfetish> It's easier to hold a younger sub in awe.

<elbowfetish> That's backwards, easier to get them in awe of you, I mean.

<en{TW}> lol KO, ok that explains it ;)

<vixen{KO}> more comfortable with ourselves and perhaps a bit less tolerant of what we expect in others....maybe?

<elbowfetish> No, more tolerant too with age.

<abigaille> less tolerant in what ways vixen?

<shoshin{MK}> abigaille.. i don't think it is age that has made me more comfortable, i think it has been seeing other women my size & age as being accepted & respected & desired that they are seen as attractive.. that has really been doing a lot for me

<atime> you have a point vixen

* Kilted_One doesnt agree with elbowfetish.....its even better, more awe when ya mind fuck someone who is expecting it and doesnt see it coming till after it is too late....supremo

<elbowfetish> More challenging breaking a wild stallion.

* abigaille nods to shoshin...something I've experienced as well :)

<en{TW}> i agree KO! probably more satisfying :)

<abigaille> okay ... anyone have a nice neat package to wrap this all up in?

<shoshin{MK}> elbowfetish.. wildness in spirit has no age limit.. i am known to be a "handful" *g*

<Kilted_One> mucho or is that macho ;)....oh theres that pig thing again lol

<elbowfetish> 2 ways to take that: a more experienced sub is more challenging to hold.

* Kilted_One would say that younger submissives have better window dressing....older submissives have more patience to look at what is under the dressing

* abigaille looks down the nicklist and sees a wide range of ages and experience .... a group of people who readily accept and share and support each other in the pursuit of our lifestyle...I think we're fortunate indeed to have the diversity that we all share

<elbowfetish> I think this group doesn't care about age, at least online.

<shoshin{MK}> agreeing most heartily

<elbowfetish> Anyone against youngsters?

<anonymous-chesterrr> me!

<anonymous-chesterrr> stupid kids

* shimmer{S-E} sighs

<AgedWine> same here. Damn kids!

<abigaille> thank you all for being here and sharing your thoughts

<abigaille> feel free to keep chatting, but we'll end the log here