December 17 2000 EhBC Online Discussion
<CaroleP{GPnl}> Welcome to #BDSM-KW, the topic for the evening is "Going
too fast/Going too slow-what happens in a D/s relationship when one
partner needs to go FASTER?" I'm Carole, your moderator for the evening,
be kind to me, I'm new at this!
* Kilted_One gives the normal warning about the logs being posted and
that all should leave or change their nicks if the di not want them to
show in the logs
<CaroleP{GPnl}> thanks KO
* Kilted_One nods
<CaroleP{GPnl}> was there a net-split KO?
<CaroleP{GPnl}> hehehe
<CaroleP{GPnl}> please remember that this discussion is being logged and
you may feel free to change your nick to protect your identity!
* Achilles{tr} holds His hands high above His head in classic
rollercoaster fashion and shouts, "WHEEEEEE!!!!".
<candie```> bottoms_up38!! *slurp*
<RON^^^> how is bottoms doing?
* `melody hangs her head over the edge of the roller coaster in a
classic fashion... arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<CaroleP{GPnl}> NICE melody... :)
<DarkAngel^> hello bottoms_up38
* Achilles{tr} sits back down and looks to Carole to resume.
<`melody> hi DarkAngel^ :)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> please, everyone, let's continue... or, start for that
matter.... :)
<DarkAngel^> hello jewell
<DarkAngel^> hi pussycate ,, gropes
<candie```> hi jewell, pussycate :)
<pussycate> hi DarkAngel^
* pussycate gropes DA
<jewell> hi all...new to this so hope i don't blow it..:-))
<RON^^^> wb people
<candie```> wb peoples ;)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> oh, ok, I'll start then.... :)
-> [#bdsm-kw] PING
<DarkAngel^> hello CaroleP{GPnl} , `melody, Opal``, KO , Achilles{tr}
<DarkAngel^> did we have a split ?
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I think so DA...
<candie```> a major one, DarkAngel^
#bdsm-kw url is http://home.golden.net/~ehbc
* bottoms_up38 smiles.. hey people ;)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I actually suggested the topic tonight, so I guess I
should say SOMETHING about it...
* gentle`willow smiles.... hiya E/everyone
<bottoms_up38> Ron.. SOME DAY i will empty out my second bedroom and
make that gym *sigh*
<DarkAngel^> scared me off CaroleP{GPnl}
<CaroleP{GPnl}> that's my job DA.
<bottoms_up38> rofl Achilles ;)
<bottoms_up38> hey DA :)
* gentle`willow smiles. ... hiya bottoms_up38 ;))
<CaroleP{GPnl}> this is going to be a BAAAAAAAAD night, I can tell....
:)
* bottoms_up38 huggles the sexy willow ;)
<Achilles{tr}> get folks off the journey server and life might be
better.
* CaroleP{GPnl} shakes her head...
<Achilles{tr}> Carole... I'd suggest you just go ahead with the
discussion. Lead and it will happen. Go ahead. Don't wait for folks.
<smiles>
* gentle`willow grins and huggles bottoms back
<tzmeplease> does anyone know how to change alias?
<CaroleP{GPnl}> Sir and I have been involved in the lifestyle for 2-1/2
years now, and have tried the 24/7 D/s thing (didn't work, we have kids)
... but I find I CRAVE it. I am looking for something deeper that I
don't know if he can give...
* D^Archangel <-- DarkAngel^
* candie``` really really wanted to see this discussion :(
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I get very frustrated, and sometimes consider looking
elsewhere, but remind myself that I promised, in our contract, that our
marriage and children came before D/s...
<pandora^^> hello A/all, may i join You
* DarkAngel^ is movin over servers
<CaroleP{GPnl}> and eventually, it may mean we have to give it up
entirely. you're quite welcome to come in pandora
<pandora^^> thanks
<CaroleP{GPnl}> does anyone else have this sort of problem?
* bottoms_up38 growls at the net
<pandora^^> greeting Kilted_One, how are You?
<niceguybh> Carol, I am in a similar situation, being in a marriage
outside of D/s and involved within the lifestyle at the same time
<`melody> knows wwhat caused the split between my Masters and thier
wives and I.. was the Masters wanting more and faster.. my sisters not
comunicateing till long into my involvenet that they couldnt handle the
third slave
<Kilted_One> well CaroleP{GPnl} with the relationship that vixen and I
had there was children involved, however we still managed to have a
relationship at home
* gentle`willow sits quietly.... as always.... watches/listens
* genigrrrl grabs a seat, curls up with her knitting...ready to see
everyones views on tonites discussion
<CaroleP{GPnl}> welcome everyone, the topic tonight is "Going too
fast/Going too slow-what happens when one parnter of a D/s relationship
needs to go FASTER?" I'm your moderator for the evening
* CaroleP{GPnl} needs to figure out how to put that into a script... ;)
<Kilted_One> has turned the auto msg on
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I wonder how many D/s relationships fail due to the
differences in advancement between partners/
<Kilted_One> Discussion in progress...Please avoid Walton style hellos
and bys...topic is "Moving Too Fast/Moving Too Slow"
<tzmeplease> listens
<niceguybh> it seems like the other part to the question relates to the
difference between the Dom wanting to go faster, compared to the sub
wanting to go faster
* bottoms_up38 listens... is this only regarding marraige and these
feelings complicating issues?
<`melody> or basic comunication
<niceguybh> for the sub, is it topping from the bottom to try to push
things along???
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I don't believe so bottoms_up38... I think it happens in
a LOT of D/s relationships
<Achilles{tr}> Carole... why is it that you are advancing more quickly
than your Master would you say? is it something that could be changed?
Something in how you each relate to it or a basic difference in each of
you as BDSM people?
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I think that it is because Master is into the B&D of the
BDSM, but I feel the need for the D/s of it... :)
<niceguybh> should a good sub/slave trust his/her Master to set the
pace?
<Achilles{tr}> So, it is not so much different rates of advance as
different directions of interest?
<genigrrrl> obviously a slave should trust her Master to set the pace
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I think that it might be different directions for U/us
Achilles{tr}...
<niceguybh> that is very difficult though....
* Achilles{tr} nods
* DarkAngel^ met a wonderful sub on-line ,,,, she seemed perfect for me.
she wanted to wait months before even meeting for coffee ,,, she had
been hurt in a previous relationship she was rushed on ,,,,, I didnt
feel comfortable waiting sOOOoooo long ,, as I had been played with in
such a fasion before,, so it strained the potential relationship too
much ,,, we are friends now , and that is all
<CaroleP{GPnl}> what if the Master's pace is too FAST for the sub
genigrrrl?
<nimeesha{JFC}> that is what i was thinking Achilles
<bottoms_up38> well being new to D/s... what i crave in a relationship
and how fast i want it.. might not necessarily be whats good for me or
us as a couple. (from past experience)
<genigrrrl> then she is not His true slave....and He not her true Master
<niceguybh> the Master has to set the pace based on the sub's ability to
accept it as well as His/Her needs
<CaroleP{GPnl}> in a perfect world, both those statements might be true
genigrrrl and niceguybh...
<DarkAngel^> Master sets the pace ,, as long as he is within agreed upon
limits ,,,
<genigrrrl> yes niceguybh...needs and abilities
<Achilles{tr}> A hard partof ANY BDSM relationship i sfinding S/someone
who shares similar interests. You like needle play but she doesn't or
she likes heavy bondage but not the heavy pain You like to inflict <all
pronouns are as examples only>.
<ravynne^> yea but how fast or slow does one go??.... imean dating for
six weeks and no sign of D/s.??? what's up with that?
<Achilles{tr}> That may not be so much a question fo speed of
development as incompatible interests.
<niceguybh> as a relative newcomer I rely on my Mistress to set the
pace, but it is so difficult sometimes... wanting to go further and
faster
<CaroleP{GPnl}> personally ravynne^, I think 6 weeks dating without and
D/s is TOO SHORT to create a good trust bond.... :)
<genigrrrl> there aren't "agreed" upon limits between Master
Slave...maybe Dom and Sub...but not Master Slave...in my opinion
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I had 8 YEARS with Sir before we even started to EXPLORE
the D/s aspect of all this
* bottoms_up38 smiles to niceguy.. understanding fully ;)
<Achilles{tr}> As to the terms 'true' slave and 'true' Master... those
are defined by the needs and wants of those involved. There can be no
single definition that can be forced upon someone to define themselves.
<genigrrrl> M/s isn't negotiated
<CaroleP{GPnl}> thanks Achilles{tr}, my point as well
<Achilles{tr}> That is your definition gen. Not everybody's.
<DarkAngel^> genigrrrl ,,, I think you refer to consentual non-consent
,, is a popular variation ,, but there is no ONE way
<CaroleP{GPnl}> oh, gawds, please let's not get into the definitions
argument again... didn't we all have enough of it on the list? :)
<DarkAngel^> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Words like Master/Dom/Top and slave/sub/bottom all have
extremes and grey areas. Different people will use them differently.
They can also be a part of people getting into situations where they
think it is clear what is expected by both parties when actually the
definitions don't match.
<DarkAngel^> ok,, back to too fast,,, too slow
<bottoms_up38> i think you have to be open with your Master/Mistress in
telling them your cravings for more. Let them decide the pace but be
honest if you feel you might go 'shopping' elsewhere to get those needs
met. Honesty is most important
<niceguybh> communication is obviously the key... how have other couples
handled that?
<Achilles{tr}> My point Carole was just that they can be frameworks for
misunderstandings. Don't let a word define you. Define yourself and be
sure that definition is CLEARLY understood and shared by both.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I agree bottoms_up38... but sometimes (as a submissive)
it can be INCREDIBLY difficult to "ask" for something without feeling
like you're topping from the bottom.
* CaroleP{GPnl} nods in agreement with Achilles{tr}
<DarkAngel^> comunication always gets top marks
<DarkAngel^> a nice butt also gets nice marks
<niceguybh> do you have "open" times where you can both talk freely??
<LrdTZ> Then ask for something when not in full submissive mode.
<CrazyFatChick> lmao
<CaroleP{GPnl}> sometimes I feel like W/we have more "open" times than
not niceguybh... :) and yes, we both talk freely... the problem is, I'm
speaking a different language than He is.
<gentle`willow> ummmm pardon my ignorance here...... are we saying that
there should be a strong vanilla based relationship in that "dating"
period first???? i guess i'm confused.... for me... anyone i date knows
what i'm looking for...... and i don't do vanilla anymore.... so if i
had to go there for a period of months before any D/s showed up..... i'd
likely get bored and walk...
<Achilles{tr}> A sub should feel they can ask for something.. but
perhaps it is not necessarily partof the relationship to expect that
thing to be granted? But it might be taken into account now, or in the
future. I am not psychic. I need such feedback to understand where My
partner's head is at.
<LrdTZ> oops that is not good CaroleP{GPnl} you both have to speak the
same language or at least understand each others wants and needs.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> willow, I'm just talking about what worked for my Master
and I... we luckily had a broad base of interests and friendship to
build on, so even if the D/s walls crumble, the foundation is still
there
<lyxanna> i think gentle, it depends on the person....some do need the
vanilla get to know you time, others need the play and then try to get
to know the person later
<arhiannah{R}> Master & i have had our share of miscommunication...which
isn't difficult given there's thousands of miles between us at the
moment...but there are times when we're SO in tune...it's scary.......He
likes to refer to it as our "psychotic link"
<LrdTZ> ok and if the D/s walls crumble, is the the other still going to
survive.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> LrdTz, I'm speaking D/s, he's speaking... whatever he's
speaking... :) my words don't translate into his language
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I really hope so LrdTZ... W/we have a marriage and
children to consider in all this, and I'm not giving it up for what HE
calls "kinky sex."
<Achilles{tr}> I have been involved in BDSM relationships which have
started as friendships/Lovers and led to a collar and also in ones which
had, as their first basis, BDSM. Each has been rich and special. There
is no one way. There may be ways a person feels it is best for them to
do it though.
<LrdTZ> so are you saying the D/s walls have already started to
crumble?? a D/s relationship takes continueous communications from both
parties.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I don't know if the D/s walls are CRUMBLING so much as
they're being dismantled and rebuilt every single day. And I want the
damned building BUILT... heh
<CaroleP{GPnl}> (which brings us back to the Faster/Slower thing,
sneaky, eh?)
<LrdTZ> grin then get him the morter and pass him the bricks one at a
time.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> it's what I do LrdTZ...
<Achilles{tr}> That still isn't a question of faster/slower Carole. it
sounds like He is simply not interested in the same things you are in
BDSM. He doesn't sound like He wants to learn what you are learning.
how the Angel lost his wings.... and became the Dark One of pain and
suffering ...pray not for Me.., pray for yourself ,, for I am close
.)
<Achilles{tr}> Saying, "Master... You are falling behind me.", is not
the same and requires a very different conversation from, "Master, Iwant
to go this way.. not over there.".
<CaroleP{GPnl}> he WANTS to learn, but I think that possibly he's going
about it the long way.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> and he's trying to start the basis of learning by trying
to understand my need for submission... which isn't EXACTLY my need for
him to dominate me.
<Achilles{tr}> If He is into the BD and you are into the D/s. That
doesn't sound like it is the case. <shrugs>
<Achilles{tr}> On the other hand... that isn't the topic tonight. I
apologize.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> it does work into the topic though...
<CaroleP{GPnl}> has it ever happened to You, Achilles{tr}? that either
You or one of Your subs needed to go at a different pace?
-> [#bdsm-kw] PING
<Achilles{tr}> The 'pace' is in a constant state of flux Carole. I am
always adjusting it, changing the direction and challenging My
partner<s>. That is a part of what I do.
<Achilles{tr}> It has even come to a level where I have halted things
for a time while W/we considered what was wanted adn how it could be
achieved.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> and if one of them were constantly pushing (or pulling)
away from You?
<gentle`willow> agreed bottoms_up38
<gentle`willow> for me it was too long.and then resentment sets in
<bottoms_up38> nimeesha.. i completely agree. The reason i stopped
playing for now. i moved very quicky with play but not emotionally
*smiles*
<ravynne^> resentment frustration anger..not a good thing
<niceguybh> my frustration still exists, but it is mixed with the
wonderful highs and contentments that come from being where I want to
be, and where She wants to be
<CaroleP{GPnl}> is anyone else logging tonight, because the netsplits
are causing us to lose 1/2 the discussion.... :)
<Achilles{tr}> That depends on the specific person and situation Carole.
I do not have one solution which works for everybody I relate to. I do
not treat one sub the same as the other. I do not expect each to scene
or relate in the same way or at the same level. Each is a special magic
that I enjoy.
<niceguybh> nimeesha, that is very important... you need to enjoy and
savour every step along the way
* bottoms_up38 smiles... i wish i had the magic ball to know the
difference. Of need vs want, of frustration of wants vs frustration of
needs not being met ;)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> sometimes what I feel is that Master doesn't WANT a
challenge. He gets comfortable in a certain level, and doesn't want to
reach for more. That could just be my frustration at wanting MORE coming
in though.
#bdsm-kw url is http://home.golden.net/~ehbc
<nimeesha{JFC}> bottoms_up38 emotional hurt takes a much longer time to
heal than any physical harm that cam come from rushing ahead
<Achilles{tr}> it has happened, yes. I have handled it each time
differently. Sometimes it has resulted in a relationshoip ending for the
good of U/us both. If I can't help them get where they need to go and
they cannot follow where I wish to lead then it is better to end it
sometimes.
<gentle`willow> i am CaroleP{GPnl} ;)
<bottoms_up38> but how do you tell the difference if you ARENT getting
what you need or want?
<Kilted_One> dont worry CaroleP{GPnl} just continue
<nimeesha{JFC}> i am using hebron.dal.net and have not been kicked out
yet
<CaroleP{GPnl}> thank you willow, maybe you can send your copy along too
<gentle`willow> just tell me to whom CaroleP{GPnl} ;)
<nimeesha{JFC}> want is something you can live without and need is
something that is a necessity of life and sometimes as a submissive i
too get these confused...that is where the Dominant should step in
<Achilles{tr}> Sometimes it has resulted in minor or major changes.
There is no magic 8 ball. No single solution. Except perhaps a
willingness to listen and an openness to new ideas and to try new
things.
<bottoms_up38> but if you say i want/need this and you dont get it... as
a newbie i am still having a hard time telling the difference... and if
i am not suited to my partner or if he is being careful and moving me
along slowly. There is frustration in this on both sides ;)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> well, there is a lovely list of submissives needs on the
Castlerealm that I use as my basis for O/our contracts. And I find that
the one "need" that I have that isn't being met is that I need to grow
* bottoms_up38 shakes my Magic 8 Ball ;)
<bottoms_up38> Carole.. what does your partner say when you tell him
your worries?
<CaroleP{GPnl}> the WANTS that I have that aren't being met are that I
want to play more often... :)
<bottoms_up38> lol.. we all want to play more often ;)
* Achilles{tr} raises His hand to be added to THAT list.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> He tells me that He's trying, and He's still willing to
try, but it always comes down to the fact that He doesn't understand WHY
I need the D/s in our relationship
<subbmissive_beauty> fourths that motion
<gentle`willow> that's interesting Carole..... i found i STOPPED growing
in my last relationship... growth is a need for me also... and that is
when i realized it was time.... to try and communicate that need to
Him... and He did not listen...... now... i'm growing again...
unfortunately.... not with Him
<CaroleP{GPnl}> unfortunately, willow, that is not an option.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> at least for me
<bottoms_up38> Carole... maybe he isnt understanding the way you are
verbalizing it.. try a letter, try getting a trusted friend to explain
it also (people communicate different ways)... one worry i would have is
that as your primary partner 'he isnt understanding you when you do
communicate'
<arhiannah{R}> growth is a need for everyone...or should be....to be
still or to stagnate in a relationship breeds contempt
<nimeesha{JFC}> part of being a submissive in my opinion is being able
to let the Dominant lead...He truly does know best in most cases.
<arhiannah{R}> imo that is :)
<lyxanna> but it could be an option for someone else....hence the
discussion happening
<Achilles{tr}> What IS growth to each os U/us? Learning more sexual
positions? Getting more whips and floggers? Learning more postures?
Feeling more control? Getting more play? Stronger bondages? Harder pain?
Growth is different for each too.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> well, it helps to have a set of goals to work with, so
you can MEASURE your growth...
<arhiannah{R}> DA, pm for a sec please?
* bottoms_up38 chuckles to Achilles.. well all that counts *grin* ...
But we are greedy and want that AND more ;)
* gentle`willow smiles at Achilles{tr}..... for me...it is personal
growth... how i relate to the world around me.... my self confidence and
self esteme
<DarkAngel^> ok arhiannah{R}
<arhiannah{R}> ta
<CaroleP{GPnl}> but when your Dom says "You're perfect the way you are,
how can you get any better?" (which is SOOOOOO not true..... hehehe)
then you know He doesn't know how to help you grow
<bottoms_up38> we are responsible for teaching our Doms as much as they
are to teach us... help him learn, Carole.. IF he is open to it ;)
<Achilles{tr}> That is a fuzzy definition gentle`willow and to
communicate it to another person is very difficult. Define that more.
Calrify it so you can tellS omeone how to help you attain it. Then.. if
that is a direction They want to go to... you've got something. if not.
Oh well. Time to think on some options.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> that's my job bottoms_up38... and I'm doing my darndest
to make it happen... but he's SUCH A SLOW LEARNER... heh heh (you must
go FASTER Grasshopper Sir!)
<ravynne^> lol
<subbmissive_beauty> lol
<bottoms_up38> rofl
* CaroleP{GPnl} has a NEED... a NEED for SPEED
<Achilles{tr}> Growth has to be understood from both sides as well. He
has things He wants from this too. What are those? Do you have what it
will take to help Him get there? Do you even know what those hopes and
dreams are? Communication AND growth are on both sides of the fence.
* bottoms_up38 giggles
* gentle`willow agrees completely Achilles{tr}
<CaroleP{GPnl}> W/we periodically sit down and discuss O/our goals and
check off those that W/we have achieved and those that W/we're actively
working on, and those that W/we've let slip... but it seems that nothing
new is ever added... maybe that's the problem
<Kilted_One> CaroleP{GPnl}.stupid question but do you discuss your
frustrations at these reviews too??
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I try to bring them up, but ... maybe I don't articulate
them well enough
<Achilles{tr}> Partof My experience has been that pretty much every sub
I have ever scened with has wanted MORE. FASTER. HARDER. Bitch, moan,
whine. But it is My job to take them where I know they can go and I do
that. I fthey want more.... feel free to mention it. Then shut up and
leave it to Me. If you don't like My pace or whatever and W/we can't
work it out... well, there's solutions to that as already mentioned. But
I set the pace and even if they
<Achilles{tr}> I stop it. Period. That is partof what I am.
* pandora^^ leaves her corner and wishes Y/you A/all goodnight
<Achilles{tr}> On the other hand I don't believe I have ever met anyone
who has felt I took them somewhere too fast.
* Achilles{tr} smiles
<CaroleP{GPnl}> it's not the play I'm worried about Achilles{tr}. I like
the play. It's the ... "formal training" aspects I'm looking for that
never seem to get addressed
<gentle`willow> i get the feeling that too fast doesn't seem to be the
issue....
<gentle`willow> lol
* Kilted_One can vouch for the fact that Achilles{tr} has never ever
gotten a speeding ticket while I have been in his car
* Achilles{tr} laughs with KO.
<arhiannah{R}> heh...haven't driven with me!
<DarkAngel^> kewl ,, or when ordered of course ,,,,
<Achilles{tr}> Play is only a partof all of it Carole. I include the
entirety. D/s. Public. Postures. Bonadgae. Confession. Fantasizing.
Control. it is all part of this.
<genigrrrl> lol i got a speedin ticket going to KO's house :P
* DarkAngel^ hates driving
<arhiannah{R}> lol
<Achilles{tr}> That toois only a small portion of course.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> well, to briefly go back to the "definition" thing, if
I'm capable of coming up with the "perfect" definition of what I believe
a submissive to be and what I believe a Master to be, maybe we'll have
the framework to work on so that we're trying to reach the same goals,
at the same (or at least similiar) speeds
<gentle`willow> yikes... confession?? *gulps*.... sounded great up to
that point LOL
<Opal``> it isn't surprising that subs don't try to slow things down...
they want to please
* Achilles{tr} smiles at gentle`willow
* gentle`willow smiles softly at Father^Achilles{tr}
<Opal``> unfortunately that leaves it up to the Doms to do it.. and why
would they want to when they are getting their kicks?
* CaroleP{GPnl} shakes her head.... :)
<BLiSs201> good point Opal``
<Achilles{tr}> Perfection changes Carole. your definition today will be
different soon enough. it si a sliding scale and the slide is what makes
it hard sometimes to know just where the limits really are.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> I think SOME Doms go too slow because they are being
careful of the subs... at least, that's how I feel in MY case
<CaroleP{GPnl}> my limits change all the time Achilles{tr}... :)
<CaroleP{GPnl}> and I keep trying to explain to Him that I'm NOT a china
doll!!
<gentle`willow> it really does all boil down to communication.... both
parties have to be having needs and expectations met...
<Sir_Stephen> CaroleP{GPnl}, what you are defining is your fantasy
dom/sub; you partner will have their fantasy dom/sub; you will both need
to compromise as best you can
* CaroleP{GPnl} nods
<nimeesha{JFC}> most of the time it is for our own good
CaroleP{GPnl}...even if we don't know it
<CaroleP{GPnl}> bah, I've been dropped LOTS of times, I've never broken
yet.... :)
<Johncin> communication is the key
<BLiSs201> what is for the dom's own good?
* bottoms_up38 smiles at Bliss :))
<Achilles{tr}> An excellent point Stephen. Ideals are lovley but rarely
to be found in reality. Think of them as targets... but not necessarily
definitions or even goals.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> good question Bliss... :)
<nimeesha{JFC}> *shoot for the moon and land amongst the stars*...goals
are not always met but if we strive for them we will end up farther than
we would have without them
<Achilles{tr}> As I say... both sides have stuff to consider. This isn't
a one sided concern by any means. Again... there is no single right
answer.
<CaroleP{GPnl}> Well, I see that we've reached 10pm, and at this point,
the discussion will no longer be logged, but feel free to carry on....
:)