December 16, 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's just turning 9 pm, time for our weekly discussion
<oasis{Omy}> evening Master
<oasis{Omy}> evening Bernie
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Qualities of a Good Dom and Qualities of a Good Sub". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<TheNewGuy> Cor doesn't he type quick?
<BernieRoehl> Yup! :-)
<`abi> wow...he even types with an accent :)
<QTIP> i think manners/politeness are high on my list
* BernieRoehl smiles
<TheNewGuy> I would think understanding on both parties is one of the most important.
<TheNewGuy> Thank abi xx
<BernieRoehl> Agreed -- manners/politeness and understanding are both good starting points
<dalian> perhaps integrity?
* BernieRoehl starts jotting these down
<twilight_girl> i think intelligence on both sides is very important
<oasis{Omy}> honor
<QTIP> being one's word is always important. more so in this type of relationship
<TheNewGuy> Imagination too.
<MysticMz> Creativity, ingenuity, honesty, trusting, True desire to serve, self-sufficient, as well as the above listed
<oasis{Omy}> respect
<Omy_> Are we starting off with traits of just one or the other or we going to start with traits both should have?
<oasis{Omy}> imagination passion.. intuitiveness.. imagination.. selflesness
<TheNewGuy> Well I would have thought that most of the traits apply to both, and that is true of any relationship - not just Dom & Sub
<BernieRoehl> So far, it seems to be both
<QTIP> being flexible enough to provide for the desires of the other, within the context of one's own
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with all of the aboev
<`abi> so far they seem to be traits desireable in any human being ... are there any that are unique to submissives or Dominants?
<Omy_> I believe that both must have Trust, Open and Honest Communication, Respect and consent netween them
<BernieRoehl> Of course, most of the ones that have been mentioned so far are qualities that are important in *any* relationship
<MysticMz> I think the big thing is making sure they really ARE submissive or Dominant and not just someone adopting the label
<dalian> a very clear understanding of what you want and do not want
<TheNewGuy> Well, Doms need to have a certain vindictive & superiority quality, whereas Subs need to have a humble outlook in some respects.
<BernieRoehl> Some of them are perhaps more important in a Dom or a sub than in a vanilla relationship, but are there traits that are unique to D/s relationships?
<oasis{Omy}> they are but unfortunately in vanilla relatioships we seem to leap before makeing sure they are completely in place hopeing things will change in time.. D/S makes us more careful and aware
<Omy_> brb...
<QTIP> truth and trust are key elements to this type of play. how well can one tell the truth if one doesn't tell the truth to one's self?
<TheNewGuy> But you can tell people who are naturally Dom or Sub without even being into the scene
<lil_kitten> not necessarily... some people very dom in life are subbies :)
<`abi> how do you go about making that distinction MysticMz?
<TheNewGuy> Some people are just naturally subservient by nature, whereas others are naturally domineering
<TheNewGuy> But are they not just using that as escapism Lil-Kitten?
<Achilles{tr}> Like say, a military artillery officer would definitely be a Dominant because He has commanded men?
<twilight_girl> but what ones does in their everyday life can be very different than in their sexual life
<lil_kitten> yeah, but for some people; control in day to day things (say work) is a must, submission to someone else in another context is their "balance"
<MysticMz> I was referring to the individual accepting the responsibility to find out if they really ARE submissive or Dominant and not just adopting the title.
<MysticMz> a little self analysis
<TheNewGuy> In the same way as some Transvestites tend to be very 'macho' men by day?
<`abi> and I think that's a tricky thing for submissives especially MysticMz ... because often, their charcteristics within the context of a BDSM relationship are very different from their characteristics outside that relationship
<oasis{Omy}> what is real... what i see as Dominate how i describe myself as submissive may be very different from anothers viw of me or themselves...
<lil_kitten> sexual orientation or intimate relationship dynamics do not necessarily agree with the way someone lives their out-of-home lives... I don't think you can tell that sort of thing just by meeting a person
<TheNewGuy> Totally non-related but channel 36 on Rogers tv (MM Music) Is playing a Queen concert - Good background music for an interesting & intimate chat.
<Achilles{tr}> Hmmm, so how do W/we spot a Dominant or a submissive? A 'real' one?
<MysticMz> that's true abi....but it's still important for them to ask themselves WHY they want this.
<TheNewGuy> Well Achilles that can only come over time, from building up a trust in each other surely.
<victoria_angel> submissives are easily picked out - true ones because of how they act not in bdsm role
<lil_kitten> I don't think we "spot" them... it's something you have to learn about someone... like... the way they dress, the things they like to eat, the music they listen to...
<MysticMz> too many say they are submissive and haven't really got a clue what that means
<`abi> of course MysticMz ... I think it's very important ... for just that reason
<`abi> I think that the characteristics of Dominants tend to be more consistant in all aspects of their lives ... so it's a little easier for them to self-identify
<Achilles{tr}> Sounds good TheNewGuy... what qualities will come to light to indicate W/we have found a submissive then? Perhaps there are unique qualities which all subs have in common?
<TheNewGuy> Thats like spotting a closet Fetishist, just because they have a wardrobe with lots of leather outfits, they do not necessarily realiseon a concious level that they enjoy it, but they wear it most of the time.
<MysticMz> and time really does have a way of weeding out the phonies
<lil_kitten> I don't think the terms have dictionary-like definitions...
<QTIP> binge
<QTIP> bingo rather
<TheNewGuy> Well on an intimate level you should be honest enough to tell each other what you like, what turns you on, and what you wish to try
<BernieRoehl> So... when looking for a potential play-partner, what specific qualities are you looking for?
<QTIP> how many different kinds of play are enjoyed by different people doing this?
<TheNewGuy> Someone willing to experiment Bernie.
<dalian> actions that follow the words
<oasis{Omy}> one thats observant... listens and doesnt assume they know it alll
<MysticMz> the first thing I look for is ...Is there any Chemisty between us?
<BernieRoehl> Ah yes... chemistry
<QTIP> i enjoy playing with someone who is compelled to obey and fulfilled by obedience. someone who needs to feel "pleasing". oh yes, and attraction does make a difference
<BernieRoehl> But the question is, where does that chemistry come from?
<victoria_angel> if i may .... an example of a submissive type who may not know it could be some one who 'naturally' would jump up to fetch a coffee, make their partner comfortable, do things w/o thinging that they have to ..... and if this person is teamed up with a Dominant, it is the basics of a top/bottom
<`abi> pheromones :)
<TheNewGuy> Well if my relationship with my current partner was to fail, then I would definetly look to start a new one from within a group like the EHBC, just to save the 'pussyfooting' around.
<victoria_angel> then later, when the persons agree to their roles / boundaries, the chemistry will be there
<victoria_angel> to plan out the chemistry, i think, can led to failure
<MysticMz> The chemistry is there or it's not....if it's not...then it doesn't matter if they are the best sub in the world
<victoria_angel> it has to be molded
<TheNewGuy> But in the early days you must both be prepared to explore the boundaries.
<victoria_angel> certainly, that is where lists come in
<victoria_angel> then later, either can help to extend those boundaries
<`abi> one must always be prepared to explore the boundaries, since they are always changing
<TheNewGuy> Indeed.
<Achilles{tr}> ...or may not be where W/we think they are when W/we get there.
<TheNewGuy> I have a saying that I tend to live by
<BernieRoehl> So... willingness to experiment, to try new things, explore boundaries... what else?
<Sir_StephenS> chemistry is fine, but you have to careful that its not just infatuation/lust/grass-is-greener, whatever
<TheNewGuy> Don't put off to tomorrow what you can do today. Because if you do it today and you like it, you can do it again tomorrow.
<QTIP> careful of what Sir_StephenS?
<TheNewGuy> That happens more ofthen Sir Stephen, that is true.
<MysticMz> another trait I look for in a submissive is....Can they give a decent massage <g>
<`abi> lol...that isn't a trait MysticMz's a skill set ;)
<BernieRoehl> So what makes the difference between infatuation/lust and genuine chemistry?
<Sir_StephenS> I was thinking that chemistry is more than the combination of lust/infatuation, and care is needed to mistake the two
<`abi> lighting?
<arhiannah> lust doesn't last...
<TheNewGuy> I would say time Bernie to be honest.
<Sir_StephenS> er...not to mistake
* BernieRoehl smiles at abi
<TheNewGuy> Lust is the affair type thing that has a finite lifespan, whereas chemistry is what lifelong relationships can be built on.
<SkyDom> touche, NewGuy
<BernieRoehl> So chemistry lasts, infatuation doesn't?
<Achilles{tr}> Lasts how long?
<arhiannah> i think you can be blinded by infatuation...
<victoria_angel> i know in my relationship, i have chemistry for my partner, however, there is one with whom it was truly attraction, which made the play more intense
<QTIP> infatuation may last. it all depends on the relationship and how it grows, if it does
<TheNewGuy> Depends on many things achilles.
<oasis{Omy}> if the infatutaion holds respect a friendship ca endure..
* `abi wonders if infatuation and lust are not characteristics ... what are the characteristics that allow them to flourish in a BDSM relationship?
<TheNewGuy> Having the honesty to ask your partner to put on a leather bodice and whip your butt.
<Achilles{tr}> What might those things be then? Perhaps they are the characteristics of a Dom or sub which W/we are looking to identify?
<TheNewGuy> Without being scared of them running off calling you a pervert.
<TheNewGuy> A good Dom knows that he/she can demand that you sleep on the floor in the basement as punishment, but wouldn't make you because your back might give out
<victoria_angel> i hate to use the word, been trying to think of another, but natural servant, seems to be what i meant earlier about a sub
<TheNewGuy> Its a combination of knowledge & power & knowing when to use them and when not to.
<`abi> which is all about what NewGuy ... self-confidence for starters
<QTIP> i wasn't at all confident when i started to play at this
<oasis{Omy}> .. knowing i am alone wishing i was with you
<QTIP> i made many mistakes
<`abi> not always victoria_angel ... I don't think of myself as a natural servant ... my submission isn't service based
* Omy_ smiles at his girl
<QTIP> my worse mistakes are my best lessons, i've found. those are the ones that stick
* oasis{Omy} smiles loveigly up at her Master
<victoria_angel> true abi
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps there is no one sort of ideal Dom or sub but variants?
<TheNewGuy> Well yes. I now have things that I wish to try, which I don't think my partner would like or would try, so do I keep them to myself? Or ask her to consider them?
<victoria_angel> but i don't mean at everything - i mean that naturally you might choose to do for your Dom first, then yourself
<Omy_> I think the relationship will be different for each couple...some maybe servant based...others not
<`abi> well, what characteristics to you think would make it likely that she'd be receptive to the idea NewGuy?
<Omy_> You speak to them TheNewGuy, and through communication see if a comprimise can be worked out
<BernieRoehl> That's a good point, Achilles... I wonder if there are "universal" traits, or whether it's really specific to the people involved
<QTIP> and specific to the individual relationship as well...
<oasis{Omy}> if you dont speak your desires you may miss out in finding something new wonerful.. that possibly your partner wants to experience but hasnt spoke of
<TheNewGuy> It all pretty much comes around to the honesty thing once more - & being strong enough to stand up for what you wish to experience.
<`abi> and expecting those same things from your partner NewGuy?
<QTIP> that's a BIG step for many TheNewGuy
<oasis{Omy}> the first time you take the chance in saying your desires.. its frightening ...
<TheNewGuy> Well yes abi that is true, but if one of you wants to go further than the other? How do you work across that void?
<`abi> someone recently suggested in a post that the character traits of a good Dominant and a good submissive were virtually the same ... I found that interesting
<Omy_> I find the play parties are an interesting way to bring up new another couple do something your interested in and ask them what they think about it.
<TheNewGuy> There is a joke in the UK - A true Sub asks 'Whip me please!' A True Dom says 'No!'
<oasis{Omy}> if you watch others you can see possibilities even interest
<arhiannah> there are "base" characteristics that bind us together though..that make us a community..regardless of our differences..
<Achilles{tr}> ongoing negotiation allows for adjusting of boundaries as the relationship evolves. new things should be happening... they will require new negotiations and ongoing trust that such ideas can be brought forward without eisking everything.
<Mstrme> greatings ladies
<lil_kitten> I think that anything that doesn't make you a BAD dom or sub makes you at least "improvable"
<victoria_angel> personally, i like a Dominant who can be the gentleman one minute, with confidence, then in whatever mood He's in - play - and that dosn't always mean using a whip ! there are many other ways to work on their submissive
<TheNewGuy> Well yes, but then getting back to the 'lust' point, there can be many new boundaries experienced in a heat of the moment situation which wouldn't normall be explored.
<`abi> which leads to the suggestion that control is an important charcteristic ... control of self and control of another
<TheNewGuy> Both Dom qualities abi?
<Omy_> Agrred victoria_angel, I much prefer wood to the whip. :) Seriously, that is very true and very fun to find new ways of working up a submissive
<`abi> yes, I'd say so NewGuy ... and to an extent qualities of submissive
<`abi> oddly enough ... relinquishing control requires self control
<Achilles{tr}> ...and self confidence as well as confidence in the Dominant.
<Sir_StephenS> there is not much control within lust...quite the opposite
<victoria_angel> again, though Omy - besides wood and leather, is not it quite interesting to use bondage and teasing with 'other items' while causing pain if that person so desires?
<TheNewGuy> So how do we spot a Sub or a Dom, and where do Switches fit in to the equeation?
<victoria_angel> confidence comes with practice
<Mstrme> lingerie
<pandora``> lol
<`abi> oh..I don't know Sir_StephenS .. I think controlled lust can be highly attractive
<Achilles{tr}> The subs are the ones on the crosses?
<QTIP> there is "bondage" without use of any rope, chain or leather...a subtle kind of bondage
<Sir_StephenS> lol
<TheNewGuy> Sounds like fun to me abi ;)
<Omy_> Sure victoria_angel...I love putting a karada on a slave and using different items...blind fold them and have a feather in one hand..a flooger in the next.
<victoria_angel> i live in that subtle kind of bondage 24/7 - QTIP
* oasis{Omy} thinks.. I belive another thing one may desire in thier counter part is a similar desire in the compostion and evolution of the relationship.. if the paths are too different or varied it may falter e
<TheNewGuy> Ok never heard of a Karda, or a flooger?????
<mirela`> sounds like fun victoria-angel, but what about the day job
<victoria_angel> heehee
<QTIP> sure. i've had a sub hold a dime against the wall with her nose. that's bondage
<victoria_angel> i work with some Doms -
<victoria_angel> man at least i can have fun with them on a professional basis
<mirela`> lol im in the wrong line of work ;)
<TheNewGuy> Sounds good QTIP.
* Omy_ tosses an "A" into Karada and a tail into flogger :)
<`abi> actually mirela ... I think that the ability to maintain some kind of "space" even during the day-job is a characteristic of a submissive
<victoria_angel> good abi
<TheNewGuy> Thanks Omy. Still never heard of a Karada though - hey I'm new to this country!!
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps the artifacts of the community such as floggers on the belt or collars on the neck are meant to help differentiate Dom's and subs to open conversations to discover the qualities underneath? Whether the Dom or sub is the 'kind' one is looking for?
<`abi> if it's always there, hovering just under the surface ... that's the kind of awareness that MysticMz was talking about earlier
<mirela`> i had something like that after my nipples were pierced
* Trufriend doesn't think what acoutrements one wears necessarily differentiates what they are representing
<Mstrme> my tait is piecrced
<mirela`> pretty much constant awareness i mean
<victoria_angel> i actually have to take a very dominant role with some of my co-workers and that makes it quite interesting to switch my personality roles - ya know - strong handshake, eye contact, shoulders straight, assertive personal
<TheNewGuy> It would be good if we could all wear little ribbon badges - subtle & innocent to the unwary, but identification to the 'knowing' few.
<BernieRoehl> So, we've been talking about a lot of different traits...
<mirela`> actually, TheNewGuy, theres some bondage-y looking jewelry that has something of that effect
<Omy_> Its a harness of sorts TheNewGuy.
<QTIP> i just had a shirt embroidered saying "vanilla impared"
<BernieRoehl> Do people tend to put together in their mind an image of an "ideal partner", someone who has just the right combination to trigger that elusive chemistry?
* Trufriend thinks more how a person represents themselves through personality is what differentiates them
<Mstrme> anyone near BRantford ontario?
<TheNewGuy> Well to be Freudian, every one has an imaginary ideal lover
* dalian nods
* Trufriend is currently, but what does that have to do with our discussion?
<Omy_> I think we all do that Bernie...we all have things we look for in a partner
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps a person will have an image of such an ideal partner... but will that ideal hold up if actually met? I believe the relationship will help to discover just what those needs and wants are. A part of the growing in the lifestyle.
<victoria_angel> very true TheNewGuy - my 'perfect partner' isn't what i have, but then there is always imagination
<mirela`> theres some characteristics that i prefer, but i find it more interesting to be open to what a new person might present
<BernieRoehl> So there is an image of the ideal partner, but it's a bit of a moving target because people refine that image with each new relationship
<victoria_angel> like what mirela
<TheNewGuy> But if a sub sets out with an agenda of what they want a Dom to provide and they find a Dom to give it to them, is not the Sub indiractly controlling the Dom? Sorry is that a bit deep?
<Achilles{tr}> That's true mirela`... might bring something to the table or cross) you didn't expect but LOVE!
<mirela`> hmm for starters i do prefer they be intelligent
<`abi> no, it isn't too deep New Guy ... it's something submissives struggle with all the time
<QTIP> a large part of how i describe "love" personally is: acceptance without need to agree
<Mstrme> Brantford?
<`abi> maintaining the line between good communication and not topping from the bottom is tricky
<mirela`> eeps! i love my boss and the newspaper boy by that definition!
* Trufriend thinks this all leads back to the basic of truth, honesty and clear communication....forget any pedestal, leave any high expectations in the fantasy world
* Omy_ nods in agreement with abi
<lil_kitten> There are "agendas" and rigid Iwannadothisandthisandthisandthis tonght and thisandthisandthis next time scedules... one is no more controlling than looking for someone to explore with as a sub, the other is topping from the bottom
<Trufriend> don't want a married partner, be up front about it and stick to your convictions....want a poly relationship, again be up front and follow through....decide what you're looking for
<TheNewGuy> Its the same as a Dom knowing the boundaries of what they can do with a Sub, the Dom is at their whim under certain circumstances.
<Trufriend> want severe punishment, find a partner who enjoys his/her work
<Trufriend> want bedroom bdsm, then find someone romantic with a slight explorative side
<Achilles{tr}> Well, TheNewGuy... that's true to the extent of safeword most likely. But the Dom uses His judgement to skirt the edges of that. Knowing the limits and perhaps pushing them.
<victoria_angel> good tru
<mirela`> i really hate the safeword thing - makes it all too artificial
<Trufriend> but be clear, not sure what you want (or need), then say so....and explore together!
<TheNewGuy> Howso Mirela?
<Achilles{tr}> Very true, Tru. Mismatched expectations are a problem... not only in BDSM of course, but more severely so in this lifestyle since it can have so much more severe results.
<QTIP> safewords are a good guide for 2 people new to each other
<Trufriend> this lifestyle, like any other is a living soap opera except we are the writers *and* the actors
<TheNewGuy> An established relationship would know how far to push the envelope without the need for safewords.
<oasis{Omy}> belives one know themselves.. seriously look inside analise what we are looking for than sit back watch listen... not rushing things
<victoria_angel> in an established relationship you keep extending your boundaries
<Trufriend> new to the whole idea of bdsm as a lifestyle, watch, listen, ask, learn, explore, experiment and enjoy
<QTIP> i like the idea of seducing change in the limits
<QTIP> it's a form of negotiation
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps that is true TheNewGuy... perhaps not. One of those expectations which would require a match in a relationship. Both should have similar belief on the point. Perhaps that is what is to be looked for in a partner more than anything else? Matched expectations?
<victoria_angel> i love your stype QTIP
<victoria_angel> style...ops
<victoria_angel> seduction is really good as strategy
<`abi> theoretically, they can still have a place in an established relationship NewGuy ... I think what changes is that the role they play ... communication actually becomes subtler and trickier as you push the edges in an established relationship
<TheNewGuy> So are we saying that the true qualities of a Sub and a Dom are built and developed over time within an established relationship?
<`abi> I think they are built and developed ... but I also think they are in place from the start
<Achilles{tr}> Perhaps so... or at least they can be discovered. If the qualities are there... great. If not, find out as quickly as possible.
<TheNewGuy> Need the loo again...bladder like a bucket full of holes tonight - be right back
<WykedWitch> greetings E/everyone
<mirela`> but not all subs and Doms want to be in established relationships, but still have sub & Dom qualities nevertheless
<victoria_angel> if you want a long term relationship, you can develop that TheNewGuy, but if you are going to share your sub or show your sub off, then you might experience problems - you will have to decide if it is a private relationship or a public one
<QTIP> sure mirela. some want to play. some want a D/s lifestyle
<victoria_angel> does anyone have any experience on how successful a private relationship is vs a public one?
<Achilles{tr}> That's true mirela`... how do you find partners in such a situation?
<Trufriend> some of us have the qualities, want a partner....and are still looking!
<mirela`> ive no idea :) im very new to all of this
<Achilles{tr}> ..or rather... how do you judge potential partners?
<Sir_StephenS> I wouldn't refer to 'true' qualities of a Dom or sub...those qualities are too relative and idiosyncratic
<mirela`> i guess i just hang around and hope someone will show interest :)
* BernieRoehl glances at the clock on his computer
<Achilles{tr}> Ooooo's at Bernie's digital computer with envy.
<Trufriend> still 4 minutes on my clock Bernie :)
<BernieRoehl> Well, we're closing in on 10 pm... anyone have anything they want to add beefore we close the log?
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> Your clock is slow, Tru :-)
* BernieRoehl is glad he upgraded from the old analog one :-)
<Achilles{tr}> Just a reminder to folks that there was a similar discussion in the past. Check the logs on the ehbc site if interested.
<BernieRoehl> Good point, Achilles -- many of our current topics are re-visits to things we've discussed before
<Trufriend> vixen's clock actaully
<Trufriend> lol
* `abi makes a note to reread it to see if the qualities have changed :)
<Achilles{tr}> Try the veal!
<TheNewGuy> I would have to say that speaking openly to other people at parties & munchies must obviously open up new opportunities for people.
<BernieRoehl> Okay, 10 pm -- I'm going to close the log. Please feel free to continue chatting informally.
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion!
<`abi> helps if you aren't in mourning NewGuy ;)
<Achilles{tr}> Ciao all. be well, be kind and please... be safe!
<TheNewGuy> Sure thing abi see me after ;)
<TheNewGuy> By Achilles
<TheNewGuy> Bye even !
<BernieRoehl> I'm going offline to process and upload the log. See you all later!
<Opal``> night Bernie
<TheNewGuy> Night Bernie
<victoria_angel> night Bernie
<suzq{CK}> nite Bernie
<candie```> nite Bernie :)