December 12, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Building a Broader D/s Community". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<DarkAngel^{a}> nice topic
<bondagebabe> 1i
<DarkAngel^{a}> I like broads in the community *innocent grin*
<abitbent> does anyone think the community needs to be built?
<DarkAngel^{a}> ohh ,, oops ,, that wasnt what it meant
<Switcharoo4u> I have been seeing younger people at the brunches...
<DarkAngel^{a}> I think IMO ,, each time someone new comes out ,, it builds more
<Switcharoo4u> It is great to see...
<Switcharoo4u> I wonder if there is anything we can do to see to that they would want to keep coming back?
<bondagebabe> i kind of has a life of it's own, don't you think? new people, new dynamics
<abitbent> I think i identify more with those who gravitate to it.. rather than those who are recruited by it.
<DarkAngel^{a}> well specifically speaking about D/s ,, and not just the broad community
<DarkAngel^{a}> does our events have much D/s for new people to see and get interested in ?
<DarkAngel^{a}> shhh BernieRoehl is here
<Switcharoo4u> now we have to stop talking about
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> So, where are we in the discussion so far?
* BernieRoehl was delayed, setting up a new laptop
<Switcharoo4u> I mentioned that younger people have been at the brunches...
<DarkAngel^{a}> I have a new submissive ON my lap lop ,, is that the same ?
<BernieRoehl> So you *were* talking about me
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Switcharoo4u> Is your laptop strong enough for her?
<bondagebabe> well, i am fairly new, and i came out to check it out, but it is the people and the dynamics that keep me coming back...otherwise i would just be a closet
<DarkAngel^{a}> yup ,, she is a tiny little thing
<Switcharoo4u> We had a great first experience when we started going to munches...
<DarkAngel^{a}> good to hear bondagebabe ,,, what did you see that kept your interest
<Switcharoo4u> Everyone being so friendly was great and it helped us to keep coming back.
<bondagebabe> lots of
<Switcharoo4u> was that gropeing?
<Switcharoo4u> that's ok also...
<abitbent> Building it broader give me the idea that we need to be proactive ... and i'm not sure that's a good thing.
<DarkAngel^{a}> that is discusting bondagebabe ,,, reprehensible even ,, oh wait ,, ya , I do that too ,, ok ,,, nevermind
<bondagebabe> no really, it was the different conversations with all of the different viewpoints
<bondagebabe> and all of the different experience levels...
<bondagebabe> and how friendly and open everyone was to sharing those experiences with someone so new
<motoki> sometimes "building a broader community" can refer to broadening horizons, not just people
<Switcharoo4u> We were more comfortable starting to come out when we communicated with Bernie on the computer first...
<DarkAngel^{a}> I agree abitbent ,,, I preffer to help people who have made that first step on their own ,,, SHOWING they are serious about their interest
<bondagebabe> exactly motoki...i thought i was pretty open until i went to a munch and realized how much more i had to learn....and how much more open i am now than before...
<bondagebabe> and i still have too much to learn! lol
<motoki> me too, bondagebabe
<Switcharoo4u> How can you judge how serious someone is?
<bondagebabe> yes, Bernie is a great front
<abitbent> indeed bondagebabe.. don't we all.. getting there is half the fun i think.
* BernieRoehl smiles and takes a theatrical bow
<bondagebabe> is nice to be a "virgin" at so many
<DarkAngel^{a}> you cant Switcharoo4u ,, but you can decide to wait till THEY have made an effort ,,
<Switcharoo4u> Is coming out to events effort enough to know if they are serious?
<_dove> If someone makes the effort to attend a munch, i would think it shows a bit more interest than online chat
<bondagebabe> maybe, if they don't run away after the first
<DarkAngel^{a}> I get 100's of e-mails a year ,, people interested in attending the 2 Munches I Host ,,, only 20 or 30 show up
<DarkAngel^{a}> I focus my energies better on those 20 or 30
<abitbent> genuine lifestylers usually stick around i'd think
<bondagebabe> a lot of people i chat with say lots of things until you try to get them to commit in r/l
<bondagebabe> of all the people i have chatted wtih and said come to a munch, i have yet to see one!
<jewel`{F}> DarkAngel^{a} do You also find that of those 20 or 30 there are even fewer that "stick it out"?
<DarkAngel^{a}> IMO ,, many go to a Munch ,,, some come back , even fewer get serious and adapt BDSM as a lifestyle ,, and even fewer adopt or are drawn to D/s
<bondagebabe> *bondagebabe wonders how long it takes to become a "lifestyler"
<DarkAngel^{a}> I am still trying to bondagebabe
<abitbent> since feeling different at an early age and not knowing what it was perhaps bondagebabe
<bondagebabe> *bondagebabe has something to attain to...a lifestyle!
<DarkAngel^{a}> it isnt the destination ,, it is the ride
<_dove> what a ride *s*
<MasterGuny> you did that long ago bondagebabe
<bondagebabe> really MasterGuny Sir? How so do you think?
<Switcharoo4u> Some people will try it and grow into it also...
<DarkAngel^{a}> so question ,, how many here are interested in D/s ,,, and not just BDSM
<Switcharoo4u> They might not have been natural lifestylers at the start.
<MasterGuny> when you take this as part of who you are you become part of the lifestyle after that it is journey
* motoki puts up her hand
* _dove raises both hands
<bondagebabe> 4* bondagebabe raises her hand
* DarkAngel^{a} puts up his and tareenas hands ,,, aurelle isnt here right now ,, so tareena puts hers up for her
<dana_foreveralways> raises both hands... lol
* MsNameless raises My hand
<abitbent> i think there is a definite distinction... between those of us who NEED to be here vs those of us who CHOOSE to be here.
* jewel`{F} puts up her hand
<MasterGuny> I thought that to abitbent till I found it was no longer a choice
<Switcharoo4u> does it matter about if you need or choose it?
<abitbent> exactly MasterGuny..
<Switcharoo4u> It is possible ( and I think likely ) that if you choose it and like it you eventually need it also.
<abitbent> Broadening the community will recruit the trendy... not necessarily bring many out of the closet.
<bondagebabe> it matters to me...i have a need, but it is my choice on how to fufill them...
<MasterGuny> I tell people new to the lifestyle that once they open the door there is no going back
<bondagebabe> but once you decide on a route to travel, it gets harder to back away from it, don't you think?
<MasterGuny> we have the trendy
<Switcharoo4u> that I feel is likely to be the case.
<bondagebabe> no turning back, as the saying goes?
<motoki> i'm not sure it's true that broadening the community will necessarily recruit anyone but more D/s or BDSM-interested people - after all, the manner in which one "broadens" can be extremely effective or extremely ineffective ....
<motoki> for example, if one broadens by networking within the existing community (i.e., one tells two friends, and they tell two interested friends, and so on)
<motoki> vs. putting out an ad in the local paper
<bondagebabe> but it is true that BDSM is becoming more mainstream, so maybe more people who have been afraid to come out are less timid about it
<motoki> very different results
<MasterGuny> we have become more mainstream and easier to find so those that want to add a liitle kink have moved droves
<Switcharoo4u> That is ok though, isn't it?
<_dove> Is that necessarily bad though MasterGuny?
<motoki> this community is already veyr visible via the internet - that's how i foun dit
<MasterGuny> it waters down the core values
<bondagebabe> yes, but even 5 years ago, it wasn't as popular or mainstream as today....
<MasterGuny> instead of fitting in they argue we should allow them to change the definitions that makes up the lifestyle
<_dove> i'm not sure i agree, MasterGuny....... i set and maintain my own values
<BernieRoehl> I think everyone will ultimately get involved in the lifestyle to whatever extent is right for them.
<BernieRoehl> The truly trendy will come, perhaps stay for a while, and move on to the next trend. The serious will stay. In a sense, the system is self-regulating.
<_dove> well said Bernie
<dana^^> so true...
<Switcharoo4u> I would like to clarify that it is still persuing broadening the community even out to those who choose it rather than need it.
<MasterGuny> I believe there were two seperate classes with a few cross overs those lines are becoming more blurred every day
<abitbent> however if the majority quickly becomes trendy... then the existence of the "hardwired" often is thought of as a myth by the popular community.
<abitbent> i'm not saying either side is more correct.... just that there is a distinction
<Switcharoo4u> It is probably true that there would be a higher percentage of people who need it staying in the lifestyle and a lesser percentage staying in the lifestyle of those who choose it.
<Switcharoo4u> but those who choose it should still be considered for the community to grow.
<MasterGuny> I had a conversation about a year ago with someone at the dssg munch..she wanted to be someones slave and whole heartedly involved in the lifestyle
<abitbent> i think so Switcharoo4u.. it's there for everyone to enjoy for sure.
<dana^^> im a little confused as how you chose it... to me its within... not something i can really change
<MasterGuny> so she told the friends she partied with who thought it was kinky to walk on the dark side
<Switcharoo4u> some people grow to need it before they even realize what "it" is.
<`abi> you cannot choose what you are dana...but you do choose how you live
<MasterGuny> they do not practice DS or SM but they swing swap and play around..are they the next generation BDSMers?
<bondagebabe> exactly abi, some people live in denial their whole life, others experiment to see where their need lies
<Switcharoo4u> some people just "fall" into it...
<dana^^> that i do understand... atleast the exploring the kinks... but ive always been submissive in relationships...
<_dove> i'm not sure it's denial, but they may choose not to join the community - doesn't make them a lesser person
<_dove> i understand what you are saying MasterGuny, but who are we to judge how they perceive their lifestyle to be?
<bondagebabe> oh, i don't mean they don't join the community, i mean they suppress their desires, they deny themselves the opportunity to explore their needs
<dana^^> am i here?
<Switcharoo4u> yes.
* _dove waves to dana^^
<dana^^> sorry... rotten isp so i didnt know which one of me left.. grins
<Breathes> I think the main problem with people rushing in to check out the "latest" fad is that it does make it easy for trolls and abusers to find victims, to find the uninformed and take advantage of them
<Switcharoo4u> when the people who supress their desires finally persue the lifestyle, they at least feel that they fit or are wanted...
<MasterGuny> what I see happening is they don't like the defenitions that define us so they want no definitions...they don't play publicly or privately
<MasterGuny> they want to be included but they don't do anything that would have them included in the past
<Switcharoo4u> I found that everyone who explained definitions always qualified their answers with "what I consider this to be is..."
<bondagebabe> then are they really doing BDSM? and who are we to say what is right or wrong for anyone in this lifestyle?
<MasterGuny> well I have been watching it on bondage for a year and find it interesting before that I witnessed it while DMing for freestyle kinksters
<`abi> equally so Guny, I have seen people who eagerly embrace the 'definititons' but who are completely clueless about the spirit of those definitions
<bondagebabe> what my definition is may be totally different than someone else's, but is it necessarily more right or wrong?
<_dove> Exactly bondagebabe.
<MasterGuny> thats also true abi they have to be willing to learn
<bondagebabe> if it works for me....
<dana^^> not if it works for you bondagebabe....
<Switcharoo4u> I understood the definitions and after gaining some experience, I then truely understood the definitions...
<`abi> not necessarily Guny ... my point was just that embracing the definitions isn't what defines a 'lifestyler'
<MasterGuny> but they broaden is so much one it becomes meaningless and two imposible to find a partner
<_dove> It took me a long time to come out into the community. i don't think like everyone else does (everybody is unique). The tolerance i found made me stay and want to return.
<dana^^> i tend to have very defined ideas about D/s and bdsm... simply because i had to understand why i react as i do... reflect on some painful stuff...
<`abi> they broaden nothing .... if you know who you are and what you want, then it matters not whether there are hundeds of other versions
<_dove> i'm not sure how we are in any position to judge how someone else embraces the lifestyle, other than to welcome them
<Switcharoo4u> Definitions just allows people to communicate with each other easier...
<bondagebabe> well said, just have to be able to find someone who defines it the same way you do...
<MasterGuny> it does if you plan on fitting inton the community as a whole or at least did
<`abi> correct bondagebabe ...that is precisely what matters
<_dove> i disagree MasterGuny, i fit into the community here and nobody has asked me for any definitions
<`abi> I think that fitting in is quite easy if you are comfortable with who you are
<`abi> the people who don't 'fit' are often the ones with the rigid definitions
<bondagebabe> i disagree as well...what i like about the community is the "differences" of opinion....the varying experiences, the knowledge
<MasterGuny> not saying you don't _dove but there are plenty that want to remove everything that does define us so they can be included
<Breathes> as long as you know where you stand and what you are looking for and can explain it in terms that others clearly understand then you shouldn't even need the terms
<_dove> Let them! What others think doesn't change how *i* think and act. i am free to do my own thing, why aren't they?
<`abi> more than that Breathes ... if you know where you stand and aren't afraid to stand don't need to explain it at all
<MasterGuny> because those definitions are exactly what attract many to the lifestyle they thought they were alone then find there are others like them
<Breathes> when I say explain I meant as to what it is you prefer whether it be sensation or fire play
<MasterGuny> others have no place to fit so they want no definitions so they can say they are included
<_dove> i guess i was lucky - i was welcomed into the local community here without an interview or interrogation
<Switcharoo4u> Definitions just make it easier to talk to others...
<abitbent> _dove didn't get the orientation course?
<Switcharoo4u> To find others, for example.
<bondagebabe> a starting point to a discussion...
<paperclip> definitions are good starting point for newbies
<MasterGuny> its not an interrogation its just a feeling of belonging
<_dove> dove got Achilles' 3 questions - it's worse abitbent lol
<`abi> lol
<abitbent> lol..
<`abi> worse than my 2 dove?
<abitbent> i fear i've had the same questions
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe wants to know where to register for orientation
<_dove> oh yeah abi
<MasterGuny> think DSSG does offer seminar for those just starting out
<Breathes> points bondagebabe towards DSSG's newbie workshop
<_dove> i don't care about definitions. If i get into a discussion about them all i need to know is where the other person is coming from. Otherwise, it makes sense to me to welcome everyone.
<_dove> As Bernie said earlier, some will stay, some wont. Some will learn, some wont
<Breathes> was given a floppy disk and a booklet, very hekpful
<paperclip> i get tired of hearing how labels are so evil.
<Switcharoo4u> How can this help broaden the community?
<`abi> they aren't evil paperclip ..they just aren't very reliable
<MasterGuny> we need to embrass those beginning and wanting to learn we need to make them welcome either online in our everyday lives munches or parties
<Switcharoo4u> Yes. I see.
<Breathes> labels are not evil, they just allow for biases
<bondagebabe> i think everyone does that anyway at the munches? very rarely have i felt unwelcome when i sat down with someone new...
<paperclip> i think, ppl are so afraid of not being original and unique that they push labels away becuz it can mean they are just like someone else...but that's not true, it just sometimes seems that way.
<Switcharoo4u> are labels different than definitions?
<MasterGuny> anyone new that attends a party that I work at I introduce them around and make sure they enjoy themselves and connect with often they are left on the outside looking in
<paperclip> i think some are afraid they are
<paperclip> Guny, being a newbie i have yet to experience that at any event i've been to whether party or munch.
<bondagebabe> Bernie did that for me at my first munch...very helpful when faced with the unknown...
<paperclip> unless it's been by a friend, but never the person running the affair
<MasterGuny> well the munch you went to use to and the fact or have not for a while is a loss
<paperclip> lucky bondagebabe
<Switcharoo4u> they get used to it I think - but I don't think of a definition of how I feel as a label at all.
<_dove> Bernie (and others) are great at greeting people
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe bows to Bernie in thanks....
<MasterGuny> as for the parties you have not been out to one of mine yet
<paperclip> lol yes i know
<Switcharoo4u> paperclip, did you mean that you did not feel perfectly welcomed, or kept outside at an event?
<MasterGuny> the munches I went to the organizers handed out tags for names and introduced people around and acted as real you walk in and either are out going or lost in the corner...that I think is wrong
<paperclip> no i didn't mean to say i felt unwelcomed but i only felt as welcomed as i would walking into any bar or club i'd go to with vanilla friends
<Switcharoo4u> I did not feel that at all when I started to go to munches...
<abitbent> the welcome wagon at my first munch was an integral part of my development. The meant more than the people who welcomed me could possibly know.
<Switcharoo4u> I was perfectly and warmly welcomed.
<paperclip> well using the welcome postively or negatively Switcharoo4u is not an issue here.
<bondagebabe> isn't that way at the KW munch at least not when i have been there....and even though i am new, i try to make a point of talking to everyone i hadn't seen case they are also new....
<bondagebabe> and if not, then i may learn
<Switcharoo4u> There are some people who will not "naturally" mingle at munches though...
* BernieRoehl belatedly smiles and waves at bondagebabe
<MasterGuny> and that is how it should be bondagebabe
<paperclip> for me, if i hadn't gone with the person i went with to these things, i'd have sat in a corner on my own until i had the nerve to just walk up to the little groups gathered of friends and spoke to them...not a situation a newbie in new surroundings feels the most comfy doing.
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe wonders if Bernie was sleeping....
<motoki> i actually feel less "networky" at munches now that i've been in the community for a little over a year than i did at first
<motoki> i.e., i met more people at my first two munches than i have since
<motoki> (at a munch)
<`abi> you met me motoki....who else do you need to meet ;)
<dana^^> im the same bondagebabe... im painfully shy and thank the folks who reached out to me
<motoki> well, that goes without saying, abi
<jewel`{F}> i think it really depends on the munch one attends
<abitbent> that's right abi... after i met you i quit going.
<bondagebabe> for me, going to a much isn't for talking to the same people i always talk to is for meeting new people as well as reconnecting with old friends...
* BernieRoehl is a bit distracted at the moment (pleasantly!)
<Switcharoo4u> I have actually been sitting at a munch, and many times have had people say something like "I have been here (at this table) long enough, and now I am going to talk to someone else"
* `abi smacks abitbent
<MasterGuny> we also have to make an effort to get people away from the keyboards and welcomed at munches and the same time we need the hosts to pick up the ball so they are not lost once they walk through the door
<abitbent> tee hee
<paperclip> bondagebabe, i have yet to see that happen with those at the munch i go to
<bondagebabe> paperclip, where do you go, if i may ask?
<jewel`{F}> Master and i were in Toronto, went to a munch there, the only ones that greeted us were ones that we knew, and they all arrived well after we did
<paperclip> ben wicks
<bondagebabe> well...i will be there in January i hope, so why don't we greet each other! *smiles
<paperclip> i find it can be very clique...i know, a word ppl hate to see used in regard to the community
<paperclip> woohoo bondagebabe!!
<MasterGuny> last time I was at Ben wicks I must say I did see Lord TZ making an effort to welcome people to the munch
<`abi> well, you welcoming as munches are ... it isn't entirely the responsibility of the those present to see that you're introduced
* motoki is hoping she can get to the next KW brunch - haaven't been in MONTHS
<paperclip> well admittedly i haven't gone to the last couple
<motoki> i was thinking the same thing abi
<`abi> BDSM is about pushing limits...sometimes motivating yourself to introduce yourself around can be the first limit you push
<bondagebabe> well...i am sure it isn't intended to be cliquey (is that a word?) people just tend to talk to old friends...
* princess{Jaysker} would like to see motoki there...:)
<paperclip> no that's true abi but if ppl want to say how welcoming the community is that should be an example no?
<Switcharoo4u> I have seen the people that I personally consider to be the more "prominent" members of the community always moving around at the munches.
<motoki> the only problem is that i'm turning a year older between now and then
<motoki> lol
<`abi> by making you welcome when you introduce yourself paperclip
<bondagebabe> have to want to be able to meet people, otherwise the "wallflower" syndrome does take effect
<bondagebabe> showing up sometimes just isn't enough....
<`abi> if you can't screw up enough courage to say hello ... a whole bunch of what comes next is going to be really difficult for you to handle
<MasterGuny> introduced to whom abi? its at a pub were everyone is dressed the same and no one stands out to great you as being there for that purpose
<jewel`{F}> i have to agree with paperclip on this one `abi, even when Master and i introduced ourselves, for the most part we were made to feel like outsiders
<Switcharoo4u> The person issuing the nametags is the most important person at the munch.
<paperclip> well as i said, as a newbie in a strange new 'world' and in a strange tend to not want to interrupt or feel comfy doing so a group of ppl who clearly are good friends and having fun. i'm an extremely outgoing person and if i felt uncomfy doing so i can't even imagine those doing so that are shy
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<MasterGuny> greet
<motoki> i felt very shy at my first couple of munches, but forced myself to talk to folks
<bondagebabe> i think that hosts have a certain responsibility to get the ball rolling for someone new, but after that, it is up to the individual to keep it rolling
<`abi> well, that might be because you *are* outsiders when you are new ... that isn't the same thing as being unwelcome
<motoki> i could have choked on my heart, but i someone lived through it LOL
<paperclip> well then i guess i'm just the only one then
<MasterGuny> if we want the community to brodden then the hosts and those organizing events must make those new coming out feel welcome
<dana^^> i get even more tonguetied... lol
<bondagebabe> i don't think so paperclip...i think you just didn't have a great experience...
<jewel`{F}> we had talked online with some of these people for 3 years
<bondagebabe> come to the KW munch!
<motoki> paperclip, the way i handled that was to go straight to the table that seems to have good friends mingling at it and introduce myself
<paperclip> lol
<MasterGuny> KW has a great image in everything they do
<motoki> i just hoped no one noticed that i had a brown spot on my undies afterwards
<abitbent> i agree MasterGuny
<Switcharoo4u> whoohoo!
<MasterGuny> just to far for those of us east of the GTA
<bondagebabe> we are fortunate! lol
<abitbent> London is great too.. but prolly because it's mostly the same people.
<motoki> yes, now that i live in east TO, it's a long trek to go to the munches i'm used to
<Switcharoo4u> you should move, motoki.
<motoki> lol i moved in may - moving again now isn't an option
<paperclip> bondagebabe, i don't think i've had a bad experience or anything, i just think some things would make things easier for other
<jewel`{F}> yes going in one has to be able to at least say hello and introduce oneself
<Switcharoo4u> it's too bad there is not one really really "big" munch...
<paperclip> well motoki, if you just went to a table i bow to you. i have one shy bone in my body and i keep it hidden well LOL you must have none
<bondagebabe> yes, i agree paperclip....if someone wants to host an event, then they should HOST...walk around, mingle, introduce...take lessons from
<paperclip> lol
<Switcharoo4u> Bernie's head may explode...
<paperclip> i've heard BernieRoehl ran a good one in that sense LOL
<jewel`{F}> but if the host or hostess or who ever you speak to makes you feel like you are an inconvenience or crashing some private affair dosen't make one feel welcome to come back
<motoki> paperclip, i'm pretty shy actually
<motoki> i find it hard to approach people i don't know
<Breathes> next BDSM to be a proper host..Bernie will be teaching it
<paperclip> lol
<MasterGuny> excellent teacher
<bondagebabe> 4*bondagebabe signs up for next workshop....
<Switcharoo4u> If there was one really really big munch, it could be advertised as such to expand the community.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.