December 9, 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

ĽKilted_OneĽ the following auto msg has been set ĽKilted_OneĽ #bdsm-kw Greeting: discussion in progress please refrain from Walton hellos and byes Topic is "Disabilities and BDSM" and the moderator is fire^runner{TDM} we post our logs so if you dont want your nick to show pls change it.<DebUTaunt> hey Mz.... was waiting til ya got settled in
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Thank you caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
* caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} smiles up at her master
* fire^runner{TDM} peeks to Master Kilted_One`
<MysticMz> as settled as I'm gonna be for tonight <g>
<fire^runner{TDM}> thank You
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> grins
<Omy> Walton hello's/
<Omy> ?
<TDM_> brb
<fire^runner{TDM}> to begin this discussion I think in a very liberal term we will define disability. A disability is an impairment (permanent or temporary) that limits one or more activity. Essentially having a broken arm or being pregnant is not considered a disability, but in the BDSM lifestyle maybe... ĽKilted_OneĽ Please note that our discussions are posted to the wp and your nicks will show so pls change your nick before we start
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> stokes caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} hair and smiles
* fire^runner{TDM} wiggles..
<fire^runner{TDM}> Disability maybe be as sever as lost of limb or as minor as a broken arm, a long-term illness, or a short term one. Hoping tonight, that we can maybe discuss ways to over come any barriers --- health wise-to ensure that 1) the individual remains safe at all times and 2) that the experience is enjoyable for both parties.
* Omy leans and whipers to his girl no..a bruised behind is not a disability
<MysticMz> sorry...but what's the topic tonight???
* oasis{Omy} pouts ĽKilted_OneĽ would you include mental disibilities
* fire^runner{TDM} giggles at Sir Omy
<MysticMz> isn't that most of the bdsm community KO??? <g>
<oasis{Omy}> health issues such as high blood pressure diabetes
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes Master Kilted_One` a mental disability is also a disability however i know lil about mental disabilities so any inoput on that would be greatl appreciated
<fire^runner{TDM}> aww most definitely oasis{Omy}`
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> The actual defination by the UN is that a disability is any limitation stopping a person from fully part taking in life activities
<DebUTaunt> I've seen concessions made for aged players to accommodate possible heart problems (ie. arms NOT suspended over head)
<oasis{Omy}> sugar shock for me looks greatly like the swoony euphoria of subspace
<fire^runner{TDM}> those are all disabilities that need to be addressed within this lifestlye
<fire^runner{TDM}> and in order to do that some key points should be discussed
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Please go on firestar{DC}
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> opps fire^runner{TDM}
<MysticMz> is a disability anything more than a 'limit'???
* Dragonchaserfs blinks
<fire^runner{TDM}> communication is crucial in all aspects of the relationship and has special requirements in the scenein arena. If your Dominant is somewhat deaf or blind, good solid in-scene alternatives should be set up in advavance...Generally, the Dominant can test out things out of scene to see if they will work. This also requires a higher level of cooperation on the part of the submissive.
<fire^runner{TDM}> With those Dominants that have restricted usage of their hands and arms, they can still scene by adapting tools and toys into unique and
<fire^runner{TDM}> interesting ways. A higher level of care is necessary if the Dominant finds it necessary to rely on electronic devices.
* fire^runner{TDM} wiggles ĽKilted_OneĽ would there be any advantage in focusing in on one of these at a time say..deafness, then blindness etc??
<TDM_> listning
<fire^runner{TDM}> i am not sure Master Kilted_One` for a disability is unique to each individual
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> yes there is a bit of a disadvantage if a Dom is limited to wheelchair as most of the venues for play parties are not accessable
<fire^runner{TDM}> if a Dom or sub has a hearing inpariment then steps need to be taken to ensure safe words or actions are in place
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}` but a DOm can function if in a chair as can a sub ĽKilted_OneĽ can you give us a few examples of how this could be achieved fire^runner{TDM}??
<Omy> I agree KO...perhaps we coulf break it down to physical handicaps, medival conditions, and mental disorders
<DebUTaunt> I'm wondering how the feeling changes if the disability came on AFTER a relationship was established. i.e. if my partner tomorrow could no longer play the way we used to vs. I met him the way he is..
<fire^runner{TDM}> aww communication Master Kilted_One` that is the most important aspect of any disability
<fire^runner{TDM}> on both sides..be it a physical or mental one and more so being a disability
<fire^runner{TDM}> it is not good enough to say i have MS..one needs to say i have MS..and here is a web site on it and this is what i can do and this is what i cant do
<fire^runner{TDM}> and it is the other partners responsibility ot ensure they learn..learn on the disability on the impariment
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> This is where communication play the biggest role eather through touching, lessing, or smelling the use of all sences are extrmaly importaint
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> nods.....
<Omy> communication is VERY important whether you have a disability or not
<fire^runner{TDM}> with a hearing loss..there is no fear of injuries recived due to the hearing loss..there can be injuries recieved is safe practives are not in place...with other disabilities...bruising can create a problem..injuires can creat a problem
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> sorrry about my spelling , brain go's faster than my fingurs
<fire^runner{TDM}> for some disable ppl heal slower
<fire^runner{TDM}> a hearing disabled dome..needs to ensure that the sub is capbale of getting across a safe action..for a wrod is not possible
<oasis{Omy}> is a disability realy that or is it something to work worth... there is no need to blind fold one which is blind.... or muffle the deaf.... if proper precacions are taken.. it can be a creative endevour
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> with someone who is hearing impaired or deaf the arrangement for use of hand signs is used, The Dom has to keep a wary eye open for these hand signs as some only focus on the body
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed oasis{Omy}` but to blindfold a deak can be fun tho..it is the mental side..the mind fuck
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> a safe word need not be a spoken on it could be a sound or touch
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes...agreed...some sort of safety precaution needs to be in place..be it a loud bell for someone who has a hearing loss or sign
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> I agree caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
<fire^runner{TDM}> having a disabled Dom or sub can get frustrating for ex6tra precautions need to be taken
<fire^runner{TDM}> along with hearing and sight tho are other disabilities..physical limitations
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> i do not see it as a frustration now, it did take some getting used to
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Again its all in the communication between both parties
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}`
<fire^runner{TDM}> its a matter of talking..researching learning
<rose_Deid{MD}> communication
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> nods....Tiernan and i have been talking alot and it has been 6 months now and there are still issues that come up
<fire^runner{TDM}> nods..and lots of it..
* firestar{DC} has a physical limitation of weak joints that dislocate easily and would like info on how suspension play could be acheived?
<TDM_> I think its always important to watch body language, motions, excessive sweating, etc. I think a Dom with sight or hearing disabilities could use their sense of feel to pay attention to such things
<fire^runner{TDM}> aww firestar{DC}` i did some research on that...
<TDM_> I know most blind people have a keen sense of feel
<fire^runner{TDM}> when doing supsension they say to do mulitplie bondage points instead of stressing specific joints
<rose_Deid{MD}> that alone could make it more interesting ĽKilted_OneĽ is that true TDM_?? or is it only a myth that has been made up??
<fire^runner{TDM}> to be creative, if you have a joint problem to ensure that one specif area is not abosrbing all the stress
<TDM_> its true, I know a few blind people
<Dragonchaserfs> so then what can be used as an alt. for the arms in suspension
* caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} shakes head, no i watched Master Tam from NJ playing and She relies on Her sense of smell and touch to see how Her boy is doing
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> and she is stone blind
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> As some of you know I hae a number of disablities, it is a lot of hard work, to have things work right but worth it.
<TDM_> like reading brail, I cant do it
<fire^runner{TDM}> Sir Dragonchaserfs` there is no alternative for suspension..if there is a joint problem one has to relieve the pressure off the joints..by using differnt methods such as restraing the arms. the upper arms also so the wrist arent taking the full stress it is a matter of being creative seeing what can be achieved
<fire^runner{TDM}> modifying equipemnt
* fire^runner{TDM} smiles to Tiernan_Galen_Foalan i get a lil ill occassionally too
<Fyre_> even the matter of acknowledging that some areas of play may be off limits due to the nature of the disability
<Dragonchaserfs> so your saying to perhaps strap arms to 2x4 and use the board to take the weight off shoulder
<fire^runner{TDM}> aggreed Sir Fyre
<fire^runner{TDM}> and Yes Sir Dragonchaserfs`
<TDM_> the use of a harness can help too
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> The biggest part is learning to communacate openly and honistly. The hardest part is having to deal with some other prejudices
<fire^runner{TDM}> one of my specialist know what my lifestlye is...His suggestin a kidney belt..and lol he even said we could modify it with D rings if we wished
<firestar{DC}> shoulders and knees are the problems with me
<rose_Deid{MD}> my kness bother me to sis
<fire^runner{TDM}> aww SIr Tiernan_Galen_Foalan` agreed..a gentle i was dating when i became ill..infomred me He could not deal with it..and we split
<TDM_> smiles at MY girl
<fire^runner{TDM}> He didnt bother to research
<fire^runner{TDM}> to listen
<dove_Deid> knee and ankle here
* fire^runner{TDM} looks to Master
<TDM_> kidney belt with D-rings
<fire^runner{TDM}> ok think the other thing i wanted to talk about was Doctors
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> prejudice is a bit of a problem, there have been a few instances where Tiernan and i have been out and i have heard some of the offhand comments, ticks me off
<fire^runner{TDM}> if Your disabled..if You have a disabled partner
<fire^runner{TDM}> talk to the Doctors
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> I know the feeling fire^runner{TDM}
<fire^runner{TDM}> regardless of the disability be it physical or mental
<TDM_> I think you make a good point though, most anything can be worked in with proper alterations
* fire^runner{TDM} smiles to caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}` ppl dont understand
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> exactly fire^
<fire^runner{TDM}> and yes Master anything can be modified
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> and some are down right rude
<fire^runner{TDM}> lol yes
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> I more than agree fire^runner{TDM}
* fire^runner{TDM} giggles
<DeuxLeMax> i dont think i've ever seen this many people in kw before
<fire^runner{TDM}> trying telling Your Dom...that You have to stop scneing cause its time to do a catherter puts a whole new menaing to water sports LOL
<too_willing> i wonder where the tolerance factor is when ppl in this lifstyle show their predjudice
<rose_Deid{MD}> lol
<TDM_> yesss :)
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> smiles and strokes caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} hair
<fire^runner{TDM}> not sure too_willing` alot of ppl dont even realize there are disable ppl within the community
* fire^runner{TDM} wiggles on Masters lap
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> grins at fire^runner{TDM} just work it into the scene that is all..
<fire^runner{TDM}> and then when they do..they become fearful of it
* fire^runner{TDM} blushes
<TDM_> I learned something new
* fire^runner{TDM} looks to Master..blushes more
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> yes there are far too many poeple that are under the impression that this lifestyle is just for the beautiful people
<too_willing> that is too bad that people can't practice what they preach...
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}` and its not
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> and we do do we not caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
<too_willing> lol - i think the beautiful people are in the minority... besides i feel the lifestyle is about real people
* caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} looks confused at Tiernan
<fire^runner{TDM}> anyone in a relationship that has a disabilyt have to learn as much as they can about the illness..about the medicatin about the limitations
<fire^runner{TDM}> without dong that it is bound to be disappointing and possibly harmful
<TDM_> and the trouble signs
<rose_Deid{MD}> we are all beautiful people in our own way
* too_willing nods agreement to rose
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes Master and learn the trouble signs
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> how to totally circumvent some of the limitations
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> Exactly! grims ĽKilted_OneĽ would you say that having some kind of disability makes it harder to "casual play"??
<fire^runner{TDM}> i am not blind or deaf..but i have a disability and if Master was not so informed if He didnt take the time to learn..i could end up being seriously injured
<fire^runner{TDM}> ohh most definitely Kilted_One`
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> why confused caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} do you not wait till I am feeling good before we seen evern when I know what you need at that moment.
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> in a way yes it does, but when we do have a good play session....it is WOW!
<rose_Deid{MD}> i have a minor disability that Master knows of and helps me with
<fire^runner{TDM}> not even sure if casual play can be done with a disability... ĽKilted_OneĽ is there anything that can be done in preparidness that would make this easier on either party??
<Dragonchaserfs> I dont think it makes it harder just more challenging
<TDM_> Kilted_one, I would say no, its just a matter of knowing how to handle it
* fire^runner{TDM} listens
<fire^runner{TDM}> i dunno Master..look how much research You did into my illness..i could never do casual play....the trust wouldnt be there..to not be injured
<TDM_> or being prepared
<Dragonchaserfs> with firestar I have to keep checking and trying different things .. its a challange to come up with a solution
<TDM_> perhaps
<TDM_> trust is an issue
<fire^runner{TDM}> i think in order to pre prepared we go make to waht can and cannot be done..to the limitatins..to modifying equipment
<Dragonchaserfs> casual play becomes more of the submissives responsibility to make sure that its done right
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> trust is always an issue
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Yes I would , the reason why is at least for me I must kniow how my partner will react, I can't do thatbecause of time in casual play
<rose_Deid{MD}> but Sir Dragonchaserfs you keep trying
<fire^runner{TDM}> i disagree Dragonchaserfs` it is the responsibility of both
* fire^runner{TDM} wiggles in Masters lap...
<Dragonchaserfs> isnt that what bdsm is about trying different things to reach that top level
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> definitely the responsibility is on both sides,
<too_willing> not that i know from experience but i would think as fire^runner, that it is the responsibility of both
<rose_Deid{MD}> yes Sir it si
<rose_Deid{MD}> is
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes and with a disability one just has to be more creative
<fire^runner{TDM}> and not give up
<fire^runner{TDM}> to achieve that level that satisfaction
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> yes very.....grins wickedly at Tiernan
<Dragonchaserfs> yes but if subbie is disabled she must make sure the Dom understands the limits and signals
<too_willing> ooh - Doms with imagination!! gotta love that.. ĽKilted_OneĽ maybe there is "responsibilities" on both sides........some to inform and some to react and adjust??
* fire^runner{TDM} giggles at too_willing`
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> she can tell Him but it is up to Him to listen and do something,
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes Master Kilted_One` is on both sides....
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> yes it is both resonsablity
<TDM_> I believe everything is the Doms responsability, But it does make matters difficult if the sub dont tell them everything they should
<Dragonchaserfs> agrees with KO
<too_willing> would that situation, TDM be for casual play or a relationship or both?
<fire^runner{TDM}> nods..communicatin..if the sub is having a rough day..and the Master wants to scene..regardless of the need to be pleasing..she needs to inform Him
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> i could see that as a fear that they might be rejected, feed out a little information and see how the other takes it
<TDM_> both
* firestar{DC} sometimes gets so excited about scening that she lets things go way too far and pays dearly for a week or more
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}` that in itself is a whole new issue..the feeling of being rejected
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Give up fire^runner{TDM} :-) never I like to find new ways to play-evil grin at caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
* fire^runner{TDM} giggles ok Sir
* Dragonchaserfs raises eyebrow...
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> i know when i mangled my ankle all of a sudden i was no longer the popular slave, no one wanted anything to do with me
<Dragonchaserfs> OHHHHHH
<TDM_> the sub should tell the Dom things but when they dont it becomes the Doms responsability, they wshould be paying attention to the sub anyway
<Dragonchaserfs> gonna have a talk about that one girl..
<fire^runner{TDM}> before Master and I got together and i was dating the first thing i would tell them was i was disabled...and most cases they had no interest
<too_willing> i sometimes wonder how much is TMI and how much is irrelevant....
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Yes TMD its call communitation
<fire^runner{TDM}> in our community just as in society disables are feared..ppl dont know how to deal with illness ĽKilted_OneĽ that is a tough one TDM_, just because you assume "resonsibility" doesnt obviate your partners responsibilities to you...pre-warn, pre-discuss, feedback ect you know what I mean??
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> I agree Kilted_One
<TDM_> I'll agree they "should" but they often dont
<TDM_> then a Dom winds up in the papers
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed Master Kilted_One i made an error with Master one weekend..we werent even sceneing...i came home went right to emerg...
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> i think it is not a matter of TMI at all, more a matter of maturity in the listener
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> agreed caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
* too_willing nods at that... ĽKilted_OneĽ example if I am playing with some one for the first time and I ask if there is anything that I should know about (insert long list of ???) and the answer is no no no....and then she gets and allergic reation to latex..best I can do it handle the rection is all
<fire^runner{TDM}> i want to touch on medication too..even for ones not disabled...many many medications have brusing as a side affect...both partied DOm and sub included need to be aware of what they are on regardless of the reason why
<Dragonchaserfs> never too much info.. because if the subbie feels it needs to be said then the Dom needs to listen.. to little info can harm and injure
<too_willing> and if the subbie keeps rambling on about little things maybe there is more going on than what is being said?
<Dragonchaserfs> agrees with too_willing
<TDM_> agreed, on that point
<fire^runner{TDM}> not sure what you mean by little thins too_willing`?
<fire^runner{TDM}> things even
<fire^runner{TDM}> <--has shakey hands tongight they got a mind of their own
<too_willing> hangnails... etc... inconsenquential items of health
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> It is hard, most of use where rased in a way not to see disabities, and when you are close to one that is disabled it is very muck in your face, one come to find out just how much hard work it is and to thoughts ppl that stick it out with a disabled parner how frustating yet rewarding it can be.
<fire^runner{TDM}> still not sure i understand...if a sub is com;laing of little things..that prevents a scene from goig on...then yes maybe there is an underlaying problem that needs to be addressed
<too_willing> that is what i was meaning, fire^runner...
<TDM_> I'm not sure of the effects of latex, but I believe a rash would develop which the Dom should notice if thats the case. basically I'm saying the Dom should always be paying attention
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed SIr Tiernan_Galen_Foalan` i am disabled...but if You ask Master..i am pleasing too Him as much as my health premits..and when it doesnt permit..then i know Master is there
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> As I know my slave is
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> for me
<fire^runner{TDM}> and i know He will be patient and i know He will care for me i also know that due to my disabilities i cannot do casual play
<TDM_> is VERY pleased with MY girl :)
<fire^runner{TDM}> they need to watch to learn to see if my legs are shaking to pay attention....that is what disabilites are about..learning researching communicating and paying attention
<too_willing> is there any sort of support system for partners of disabled ppl in the lifestyle? i hope that i worded my interest an appropriate manner....
* caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} smiles at her Master
<fire^runner{TDM}> and i think alos reassuring them..no matter who it is
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> I have been in and out of my chair for 22 years, caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF} is the only person that has ever asked to use my back up chair to find out how I see thing from my point of view
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> no there really isn't support systems in place, other than our friend who know and care
<fire^runner{TDM}> not yet too_willing` most ppl are just learning that there are disable ppl in the lifestlye too..i looked on the web ..found mayb 4 sites on disabilites and BDSM...
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}` other then ones that know..and care
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> oh really? i would like to see those sites fire^runner{TDM}
<too_willing> hmmm - that seems unfortunate....
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> and Master still owes me a day out in the chair
<TDM_> I dont know of any support groups for disabled people in the lifestyle. I imagine it would be quite an undertaking to put such a group togeather as disabilities very so much
<Tiernan_Galen_Foalan> Yes and you will get it too caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> i have worked with the Deaf Leather community they are an interesting bunch
<fire^runner{TDM}> yes adn that is another thing disabilities are unique to each individual..if one has joint problems it could be the arms..another it maybe the legs
* too_willing is glad she stopped in tonight, she is learning much.....
<fire^runner{TDM}> http://www.bdsm-online.com/health/bdsm_disability.htm this one is on hearing impariments
<fire^runner{TDM}> http://www.leatherpage.com/columns/lolita/lw990104.htm
<fire^runner{TDM}> is a generalize web site
<fire^runner{TDM}> both sites talk about disabilites and BDSM
<victoria_angel> submissives aren't the only ones with disabilities, what about Dom/mes with them?
<fire^runner{TDM}> agreed victoria_angel` and i think it goes back to the same rules..read learn research
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> my Master Tiernan here is wheelchair bound to some degree
* fire^runner{TDM} looks to the time
<fire^runner{TDM}> ok to sum this up
<fire^runner{TDM}> Remember to 'do no harm'. Your interaction should improve both of your lives, not diminish it in any way. Be supportive and absolutely honest from the beginnings of the relationship. If you think you may have trouble or feel uncomfortable looking at someone with a disability, then do not impose yourself onto them. The human spirit is fragile and beautiful, be genuine, open and supportive.
<fire^runner{TDM}> and thank you ĽKilted_OneĽ Thank you fire^runner{TDM}
<rose_Deid{MD}> thank you fire^runner
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> thanks fire^runner{TDM}
* fire^runner{TDM} wiggles...hope everyone learned something new..:)
<too_willing> thanks fire^runner{TDM}
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> wow that was a pretty quick hour
<caoimhe_fiadhnait{TGF}> nods..yes that i am not the only one working my way thru this