December 7, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Dealing with Disobedience". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<jewel`{F}> have you been out to any of the munches?
<delyssa> oh my
<jewel`{F}> nice boots abi
<Rrrtp1> yeah...felt like outsider
<delyssa> Rrrtp1... as someone who was new not very long ago, I found it best to chat in these channels, get to know a few people online, then go to a munch I knew they'd be at. They were all very welcoming and friendly.
<Rrrtp1> should put a desperately seeking ad in paper?
<`abi> desperation generally begets desperation
<melody``> Any ideas on the discussion
<delyssa> We already had the discussion earlier
<shareena^> Hi DarkAngel^
<DarkAngel^> shareena^ ,,, now dont be disobediant ,,, lol
<jewel`{F}> DA how do You deal with disobiedence Sir?
<shareena^> me? obviously my halo is not shining quite as bright tonight
<DarkAngel^> no idea ,, I came here to learn *innocent grin*
<DarkAngel^> how have some of the subs been disobediant ,,, and how was it delt with ?
<Rrrtp1> Did meet one sub..requested disipline by golden shower
<shareena^> long list here
<DarkAngel^> whip em out shareena^
<DarkAngel^> pun intended
<shareena^> probably crossing the line. Pushing things a bit too far
<DarkAngel^> was that for something she did Rrrtp1 ? ,, or a type of play she requested?
<Rrrtp1> play requested
<DarkAngel^> and what has happened to you in retribution shareena^ ?
<shareena^> Both times spankings...
<DarkAngel^> did you enjoy the spankings shareena^ ?
<shareena^> and if someone tells me that spanking a sub is a reward then they have never been spanked for punishment
<shareena^> the mindset is different and it starts out hard and ends hard
<Anticipation^> DarkAngel^......*I* for one DIDNT enjoy administering it
<DarkAngel^> ok shareena^ ,,, nice ,, ty for sharing ,,,
<`abi> what did it achieve?
<DarkAngel^> I can understand that Anticipation^
<Rrrtp1> have to get to work....thanks...
<DarkAngel^> I like the 3 part process ,,,, confession, penance, absolution
<DarkAngel^> anyone else have an exammple of disobediance ?
* delyssa coughs
<Kilted_One> nicola..... delyssa
<Anticipation^> ` achieved the simple point of stressing that I was not pleased with her behavior....that it has stepped beyond the bounds that I had set for her....and that it was necessary to correct that...I was not happy doing so...yet after it was was forgiven and forgotten
<delyssa> nicola?
<Kilted_One> cough candys
<delyssa> oh... I thought you were referring to Lady Nichola lol
<DarkAngel^> robatussent
<DarkAngel^> I think that is richola
<DarkAngel^> can anyone give an example of a corective action that WASNT corporal punishment ?
<DarkAngel^> how about making the sub stand in the corner *Evil smirk*
<Kilted_One> making the punishment fit the "crime" I find more interesting that CP
<delyssa> being denied something as well as one means of punishment
<shareena^> is punishment suppose to be "interesting"?
<Kilted_One> for example speaking out of turn .....loose the use of speach for a set period
<Kilted_One> why not shareena^??
<MysticMz> I agree with you KO.
<DarkAngel^> I agree Kilted_One ,,, having recently owned a pain slut,, I found cp to be sending the wrong signals
<Kilted_One> why does it have to be CP and in a negative conotation
<QuietSoul> hello everyone, sorry I'm late
<jewel`{F}> the few times that Master has had to use punishment with me, it has involved a lot of thinking on my part
<Anticipation^> time shareena^ stormed away from me and left me sitting in a restaurant, I was furious......but on the drive home...I realized that while her behavior of storming away was not acceptable...I needed to find the REASON for the storming we sat down and discussed WHY it happened....and during that talk...I explained to her why it wasnt acceptable and what she could expect if it happened never has..
<shareena^> I would think it would depend on what works best for the people involved.
<Anticipation^> situation disciplined...corrected.....without corporal punishment
<DarkAngel^> a good scolding can deeply hurt ,, and thus is also a good method
<shareena^> imo you need to get to know the sub to know what will work.
<QuietSoul> but what defines a good scolding as opposed to emotional abuse?
<shareena^> we are all different and respond differently
<DarkAngel^> the people involved QuietSoul
<shareena^> If Anticipation^ stood me in a corner to me it would be funny so it would have very little impact
<DarkAngel^> so that probably wouldnt work for you shareena^ ,, lol
<shareena^> lol...nope
<Kilted_One> while certain things maybe tailored for maximum effect I dont necessarily believe that everyone is "that" differnet that the same "aproach' can be used on everyone
<DarkAngel^> so what has worked shareena^ ?
<shareena^> The majority of the time, talking to me. Having me kneel in front of him and him letting me know how disappointed he was in my behaviour has worked
<DarkAngel^> good point shareena^ ,,,
<shareena^> and then reiterating what his expectations were
<QuietSoul> sometimes being silent can be very powerful as well, gives the person time to think about their actions
<shareena^> and what would happen if I repeated the behaviour
<QuietSoul> stricter discipline perhaps?
<DarkAngel^> whenever I have dealt with disapline; I have ensured that the sub was in a submissive posture,,, mostly being kneeling
<shareena^> kneeling puts me in a very submissive frame of mind
<shado> silent treatment like others mentioned can have the reverse effect
<DarkAngel^> every sub I have talked to claims that the silent treatment does not work QuietSoul
* Kilted_One thinks that kneeling puts me in the church <s>
<QuietSoul> i tend to agree with you
<QuietSoul> you can't fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is
<Anticipation^> only if it becomes necessary QuietSoul..... I try to display my emotions to I am happy with her...when she has disappointed me in some way.....90% of the time, displaying my feelings to her..(since we live together and she CAN read me well) suffices....however...occasionally....something more is needed
<shareena^> silent treatment would not work for me. When I have messed up I need the reassurance from Him. If he was silent that would be emotionally hurtful
<DarkAngel^> I find that the sub kneeling allows for a more structured discussion ,,, a protocol approach perhaps
* cynful_cynthia hates to be ignored so I would say it works in my case
<Symmetre> silent treatment can be a double edged sword though ... can lead to the sub feeling abandoned .... may wind up becoming a permanent condition
<DarkAngel^> IMO the silent treatment would only work ,, IF the issue was fully discussed
<shado> can also get the sub really pissed off
<`abi> are discipline and disobedience inextricably linked?
<QuietSoul> such a fine line
<Kilted_One> doesnt the "silent treatment" reek of "non communication?? and if so is the problem then not being discussed and understood from both sides??
<QuietSoul> it does
<shado> exactly KO
<delyssa> or discpline and punishment, abi?
<shareena^> communication is crucial during times of disobedience
<QuietSoul> especially when one person wants to communicate and the other person doesn't know how to or won't
<Anticipation^> I am assuming that the "silent treatment" would be followed up by a "discussion of why I was silent" talk? If not...then how does the sub understand WHAT it was that caused you to give her the "silent treatment"?
<DarkAngel^> good point `abi ,,, and we have to realize that disobediance can only arrise if the sub has been properly directed ,,, willfull disobediance
<QuietSoul> exactly
<Achilles{tr}> Why would they disobey?
<shareena^> i had a difficult time communicating with Anticipation^ in the beginning due to past experiences. A patient Dom can help a sub communicate feelings
<delyssa> but what if someone does not realize they're being disobedient, DA?
<DarkAngel^> I think that would be bad Anticipation^ ,,, disapline should only be given out after discussion ,,, not discussion after punishment
<QuietSoul> but i think everything leads to the same point, disobiedence leads to disappoinment, disappointment leads to punishment, punishment leads to discipline
<DarkAngel^> then delyssa I could not/would not disapline them. Such an occurance would only illustrate the need for a discussion so that both people in the relationship are aware
<shareena^> disappointment doesn't always lead to punishment
<QuietSoul> depends on how the person defines "punishment" though
<Kilted_One> isnt dissapointment itself a very powerful "punishment"??
<Anticipation^> I agree DarkAngel^......I always talk to shareena^ and let her know WHY we are even HAVING this discussion....sometimes that alone is enough to let her know that what she did was wrong....and she corrects it on her THAT is what makes me the happiest.....when she recognizes she has done wrong...and corrects it herself
<QuietSoul> yes it is
<delyssa> I see discipline as being separate from punishment. They go together at times, but not always
<DarkAngel^> we all have to realize ,, no contract, no list of rules can anticipate every situation ,,, but each situation CAN result in a good discussion and perhaps better understanding
<QuietSoul> i guess it would all depend on the situation really
<`abi> in fact delyssa .. discipline and punishment are almost opposites
<delyssa> I guess it also depends on how you define discipline. Some see discipline as being corporal punishment, etc.
<QuietSoul> exactly
<shareena^> depends on what our definition of the words are
<delyssa> I have been disciplined quite a few times, but punished only a couple of times.
<QuietSoul> different situations call for diffenent definitions or re-definement
<cynful_cynthia> I would not want a Dom to hold in his resentment if he feels I have wronged him or disappointed him, I would fear it would surface during play, which is confusing as hell and leads to mistrust
<DarkAngel^> almost never for me delyssa ,,, since I am a Sadist ,, and I enjoy a pain slut ,,, so since we both should find such pleasurable ,, I donlt like to mix in pain = bad
<Kilted_One> discipline...Training that produces order....
* DarkAngel^ grins pain = fun
* `abi nods to KO ... which is quite different from punishment
<DarkAngel^> disapointment doenst always lead to disapline ,, but should always lead to discussion
<QuietSoul> true
<shareena^> true DarkAngel^
<Anticipation^> DarkAngel^...that is why...when I DO need to use some sort of corporal punishment...I use one SPECIFIC tool....that is NEVER used for any other play between the two of IF she sees its to be used...she KNOWS its not for any other reason other than what we discussed a long time ago
<DarkAngel^> good way to structure that Anticipation^
<DarkAngel^> may I ask what this item is Anticipation^ ?
<Anticipation^> one time....(and this is actually humorous....not a story of discipline)....but I was merely taking my belt off...and shareena^ heard the sound...looked...and the look of sheer panic on her face...had me laughing....and hurrying to assure her that I was merely taking it off...not to use
<QuietSoul> very powerful imagery though
<DarkAngel^> dealing with disobidiance in a structured maner IMO allowes for closure
<shareena^> extremely powerful QuietSoul
<DarkAngel^> maybe she was just afraid your pants were goingto fall down ?
<QuietSoul> it's amazing how one simple act can trigger a flood of emotions in people
<`abi> only if you deal with it in a way that is appropriate to the individual DA
<shareena^> that thought did not enter my head DarkAngel^
<Kilted_One> are Doms ever disobedient and have to be punished??
<QuietSoul> i would have to say yes Kilted One
* delyssa goes back to coughing
<DarkAngel^> how has an example been handled in your case `abi ?
<shareena^> but who punishes the Dom?
<DarkAngel^> Kilted_One ,,, shhhhhhh
<Anticipation^> I agree emphatically DarkAngel^.....I NEVER leave the situation unless shareena^ completely understands that whatever the situation was that caused us to have that particular finished...and that I love her know less that I did before the disobedience
<QuietSoul> i think the sub does by not participating fully, not giving themselves fully to the Dom
<QuietSoul> The mind is a very poweful play tool
<Anticipation^> you do shareena^...every time I look into your face and see the look of hurt...or uncertainty in your eyes at what might have happened
<shareena^> is the sub punishing the Dom QuietSoul, or has something happened that has caused her to mistrust the Dominant"
<`abi> we don't do punishment DA ... it doesn't work for me ... what works is communication, alot of it .. and clear expectations
<QuietSoul> it could be both Shareena
<DarkAngel^> I agree Anticipation^ ,,, thus I stated my methodology confession (discussion so that both know the issue, and that the sub realized he/she was wrong) ,,, penance (whatever punishment) ,, and absolution (the Dom/me must forgive and the sub must realize the issue is closed)
<`abi> sometimes it feels like something is being talked to death, but that's far more effective than wailing on my ass or standing me in a corner
<`abi> now payback...that's something entirely different
<DarkAngel^> lol ,,, explain "payback" please `abi
<`abi> payback is ...'you fucked up and I'm going to enjoy making you pay for it'
<workinhardd> pay how, abi?
<QuietSoul> that can be fun actually if done the right way
<DarkAngel^> lol ,,, such as `abi ?
<`abi> oh, use your imagination DA ;)
* DarkAngel^ thinks Purple thoughts ,,, "LOL ,,, Use Your Immagination Perverted Kids"
<QuietSoul> so many tools, so little time
<DarkAngel^> are you ok `abi ? .... OMG ,,, uhhh sorry , my immagination just did reall nasty things to you
<`abi> that's payback ;)
<Kilted_One> any other thoughts from the submissives here on how they have dealt with a disobedient Dom??
<DarkAngel^> immagination,,, as Kilted_One mentioned earlier ,, making the punishment fit the crime
<shareena^> how about discussing it with the Dominant if he has done something
<DarkAngel^> anyone have any real interesting examples ?
<QuietSoul> i think the Canadian Criminal Code could benefit from the credo DarkAngel
<shareena^> punishing a Dom makes me think of retaliating and I don;t think that is good for the relationship
<shareena^> I wouldn't want Him to do that to me
<QuietSoul> no relationship is healthy if one person purposely goes out of their way to hurt the other
<DarkAngel^> ok ,,, looking away from disapline ,,, how would one deal with actualy disobediance ?
<QuietSoul> would you treat it kind of like "child rearing"
<DarkAngel^> say you were in public ,, you cant throw them over the table ,,, now could you
<QuietSoul> true, but you give them a knowing look so they would know that they did something wrong
<Kilted_One> would anyone start by accertaining if it was malicious or simply ignorance that lead to the disobedience??
<QuietSoul> and later in private discuss it.
<DarkAngel^> has anyone ever used a "signal word" ,,, to let the sub know they were going over the limit ? ....
<QuietSoul> wow...i never thought of that,
<QuietSoul> i think you would have to Kilted_One
<DarkAngel^> if I ever called my sub "pumpkin" ,,,,
<DarkAngel^> how accelerating Kilted_One ?
<shareena^> we had a situation like that at kNaNo the last time we were there. I was talking and he wanted me to stop that line of conversation. He simply squeezed my arm and I knew
<Anticipation^> I have not used a "word".....I am a "hands on" person......a subtle grip on shareena^'s elbow....has let her know that she has crossed the line
* cynful_cynthia is a maschoist who is also a chronic pain sufferer.....there is pain that turns me on and pain that doesn't . Good pain is a wonderful distraction from the bad pain. I see pain in layers, ranges, somepain can be fun and desired, some not We are still adjusting to how I physically feel, sometimes a look from him gets the point across to me and impacts me the same as having a punishment I don't like
<QuietSoul> and that's all you really need i think.
<DarkAngel^> oops ,, ok Kilted_One , re-read that ,,, now I understand the point
<DarkAngel^> excelent Anticipation^ ,,, same idea
<QuietSoul> i think the length of time you are with someone dictates what actions or signals work
<shareena^> you mean length of time as in getting to know them better and what works QuietSoul?
<QuietSoul> exactly
<shareena^> that has been true in our situation
<QuietSoul> couples who are married for years can look at each other a certain way and know what the other is thinking
<cynful_cynthia> so true
<QuietSoul> as do friends
<Kilted_One> how many here would agree that "perceived disobedience" in most cases is no more that "misunderstanding or miscommunication"....and that real (as apposed to perceived) disobedience happens on the second occurance or third and so on
<DarkAngel^> lol ,, a "Dommy Look" to silence a lippy sub ?
<QuietSoul> exactly
<DarkAngel^> I agree Kilted_One
<QuietSoul> and I agree with you Kilted_One
<shareena^> i agree Kilted_One
<delyssa> omg... KO Yes, Yes YES!
<QuietSoul> "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...."
* DarkAngel^ checks to see if KO was touching delyssa
<`abi> I would agree KO ... and I would also say that intentional disobedience is a signal that something else is going on
<Anticipation^> shareena^ and I were just discussing that ourselves Kilted_One.....that "once is accidental"...."twice is misunderstanding"...."3 times...and your now crossing the line into wilful disobedience"
<shareena^> which is why communication is needed
<Kilted_One> and that is the reason why it is important to communicate communicate communicate
<QuietSoul> exactly, my ex didn't know how to communicate, which is why she is my "ex"
<DarkAngel^> definetly
* shareena^ says to Kilted_One "stop reading my"
* Kilted_One puts his crystal balls back in his kilt
<shado> once is an accident...twice is a coincidence....three times is a pattern....that goes for all of life
<cynful_cynthia> yes
<QuietSoul> which can equal emotional abuse
<shareena^> all of life shado? How so?
<DarkAngel^> also sounds like kids shado ,,, lol
<shado> it's a pattern shareena^.....look if someone lies to you......use that method and you know by the third time they are a cronic liar
<DarkAngel^> ignoring issues is the worst thing you can do
<QuietSoul> SO TRUE
<DarkAngel^> I have been guilty of putting off isses to talk about as well
<QuietSoul> i need to know from people if i wronged them, why i wronged them and how to fix it and make ammends
<Anticipation^> if it happens 3 times...its up to ME to correct that situation BEFORE it becomes a pattern.....BEFORE it gets out of hand
<QuietSoul> But then again some people don't have the maturity to own up to their end of the problem
<DarkAngel^> strike while the iron is hot ,,, but do so ONLY in a calm manner
<shado> true Anticipation^ but you'd probably get that by the 2nd time
<QuietSoul> and they turn it around on the other person, which cause more guilt and hurt
<`abi> branding as a form of discipline ... pictures at ll
<delyssa> I was once told (early on) that negligence, forgetfulness, etc. could be worked through, but WILLFUL disobedience might very well end things very quickly.
<QuietSoul> when someone does something on purpose yes it will tend to ends things quickly
<QuietSoul> but saying (and exuse my language) "Hey I f--ked up, I'm sorry" helps to bring communication more forthcoming
<Kilted_One> so if it is a "pattern or habit" making the "correction' to achieve the desired results would it not be better suited if the "correction" was designed to "correct the habit" as in be related to the apposed to CP....example.....talking out of turn....given talking exercises in etequette to learn...
<Anticipation^> its my opinion that any time there is wilful disobedience....there is a REASON for it.....and its up to me to find out WHAT that reason is.....before it DOES get to that point where one or the other says...."its over"
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<QuietSoul> yes it would Kilted One.
<QuietSoul> I think communication is key
* Kilted_One slaps a bandaid on the bot
<QuietSoul> Understanding is important
<QuietSoul> and finding the correct solution to the problem is important and not creating a new problem as a solution
<shareena^> yes it is QuietSoul
<QuietSoul> Now can someone contact my ex and let her know all this please...LOL
<sinfuly_delicious{TS}> lol
<Kilted_One> one persons problem is another persons opportunity.....I like to think they are all opportunities
<QuietSoul> They are, it's called Personal Growth
<shado> you can say that knowing me KO
* Kilted_One winks and hugs shado...sure lass
<shado> brave words
<Kilted_One> best analogy I can think of is that communication is like short wave need two of them and both have to be tuned to the same frequency and both of them have to be held to your ear or the message can be getting sent but not recieved
<QuietSoul> I like that
<Kilted_One> well I guess true words are brave words
<shareena^> and you have to take an interest in what is being said
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<QuietSoul> Problem is some people can be so self-involved that their capicity for listenting and in turn comprehension is very limited