December 5 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<mary_M> lets try this
<BernieRoehl> There we go
<BernieRoehl> Hi, mary!
<mary_M> hi Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Everyone, I'd like you to meet mary_M from Toronto, who has volunteered to moderate tonight's chat
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message on the channel
<BernieRoehl> Here's what it says:
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.  Also note that the discussion is being logged.  If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick.  We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag.  Tonight's discussion topic is "Day to Day BDSM".  The moderator tonight is maryM.  Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> That should be raptor, not hebron
<mary_M> God we are glad you are here, Bernie
* shadodancer passes Bernie the white out
* BernieRoehl smiles
* BernieRoehl updates the auto message to refer to raptor instead of hebron
<mary_M> Tonight I thought we might get into the day to day aspects of a bdsm relationship
<mary_M> how do you keep it fresh and alive
<BernieRoehl> It's an interesting question.  I'm curious how many people here are (or have been) in a long-term BDSM relationship?
<mary_M> obviously, I am LOL
* sweetslave{AF} has not been
<en{TW}> i am
<fluxie[F]> live in, but not long term :(
* Kilted_One puts up his hand
<BernieRoehl> I have been, the longest being just under two years
<`forbidden> not me
<ti`mara{OR}> i can wish can't i
<BernieRoehl> I've spoken to many people who have been, and many of them have similar observations.
* LrdThomas raises his hand, but volunteers nuttin. <g>
<mary_M> takes the nuttin  thank you Lrd Thomas
<BernieRoehl> They say that there are several "phases" (the "honeymoon" phase being the first)
<en{TW}> i haven't really found that there was a honeymoon stage...
<en{TW}> or maybe i am still in
* SiRmac{v} we are
<BernieRoehl> Once the initial rush of passion/romance/novelty/intensity/whatever wears off, the struggle is to keep it fresh and exciting.
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to en
<en{TW}> but i have experienced that in vanilla relationships...and it's not the same as this experience
<BernieRoehl> What do you think makes it different, en?
<mary_M> not only fresh, but how do you go day to day and keep that sub/ Dom thing   well sub Dom? LOL
* Kilted_One thinks that that is almost impossible to do...a D/s relationship cannot be held D/s 24/7 a day...ya got let the "s" breath
<SiRmac{v}> I don't think it is different.
<fluxie[F]> and give the "D" a break
* BernieRoehl agrees with Kilted_One
<CaptainCool> If sex is not does not exist, could D/s relationship exist?
<mary_M> but can you slip between "modes"?
<CaptainCool> oops
<CaptainCool> I mean
<CaptainCool> If sex does not exist, could D/s relationship exit?
<CaptainCool> exist
<CaptainCool> even
<CaptainCool> <--bad day
* bottoms_up{RD} chuckles at CC :)
<en{TW}> well, perhaps because there is more intensity early on, more the getting to know you stage is brief compared to vanilla dating...i am not sure
<LrdThomas> i think the basic tenets of the relationship must prevail 24/7.  but i think most think of 24/7 M/s as too oppressive, when in fact much of it is light banter, laffing, enjoying all aspects of life.... but from a framework of behavioural and attiudinal rules.
<en{TW}> Tw and i share new "deep dark" secrets every once in awhile....that kind of keeps both of us thinking and learning new things about one another
<Kilted_One> agreed Thomas...we "spar" all day...and only the really important issues do I "call" rank and D/s to order
<SkyDom> Hi, all!
* #bdsm-kw is being logged
* Kilted_One also beleives and applied the Dom laugh rule
<bottoms_up{RD}> Dom laugh rule?
<BernieRoehl> You may want to explain that rule, KO -- it's pretty clever  :-)
<en{TW}> i think that is where misconceptions and misinformation occurs among non 24/7 bdsmers....either they assume something or are told things that are exaggerated
* LrdThomas chuckles
<Kilted_One> yeah...if ya break a rule but can make the dom laugh doing it there is no punishment awarded
<en{TW}> re; how things are in a 24/7 
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol KO.. i will remember that one ;)
<en{TW}> lol, i like that one
* callay{TW} needs to remember that one:))
* `zee takes notes and underlines that rule
<EmpoweredOne> Hello
<Kilted_One> it does help into humour into the relationship
<Kilted_One> into=intro
* LrdThomas has used to laff rule for yrs... and it is second only to the rule that ensures she can discuss "anything" with her master, in ensuring a sub feels there is room to grow in D/s.
* KarenD likes that laugh rule a lot, writes it down
<en{TW}> keeping it fresh i think involves sharing thoughts, feelings....exploring beyond limits...keep moving forward
<TrapperD> Wow! Busy in here tonight.
<en{TW}> can be done through talking, letters, stories, journals etc...
* Kilted_One has exhaustingly long talks
<mary_M> is this in scene, en, or just as a daily thing,?
<en{TW}> daily
* SkyDom is on the phone
<callay{TW}> i would think it would have to be daily...if you are living 24/7
<`zee> do some Doms/Masters keep journal too?
<KarenD> `zee....thank you, I've asked that question a zillion times in different places...
<mary_M> are you always in sub mode then? Or do you go somewhere between sub and     for want of a better word here     vanilla
<en{TW}> and since no one else is bringing it up :) introducing some level of polygamy *can* help keep things interesting....and adds a new area to learn about your partner and yourself through
* `zee nods and agrees with en{TW}
<BernieRoehl> Not as such, zee, but I've occasionally kept notes on a sub's training
<en{TW}> well, i have trouble with the idea of sub mode...i do not behave the same way as when i am waiting to be caned....24/7
<BernieRoehl> And on progress in the relationship
<`zee> BernieRoehl Sir..did not mean on others but within Yourself as to reflections and emotions..
<mary_M> yes, en, that's CERTAINLY true  LOL
* SiRmac{v} doesn't use a journal. Prefers letters or even e-mail.
<en{TW}> so...i guess i waver in between both most of the time
<TrapperD> Personally speaking, while I respect the whole polygamy thing, it's just not for me. I think maintaining Dom-space with just one person can be hard enough at times. But this is just me.
<en{TW}> i suspect if more Doms wrote to their subs as much as subs write to their Doms (journals, letters etc...) that might keep things more interesting as well
<BernieRoehl> That's part of it, zee -- but the focus of my notes tends to be on the submissive, with my own self-reflection being connected to the developing relationship
<EmpoweredOne> How important is Polygamy? Can D/S be just exclusive?
<mary_M> I don't know Trapper, you might try the Dom with his trusty sidekick helper when playing another sub LOL
<TrapperD> I think it can be exclusive. And very rewarding.
<`zee> of course it can EmpoweredOne Sir.. polygamy is another branch in a relationship
* fluxie[F] personally believes that she couldnt have any l/t relationships that are not "open" if not fully polygamous...mostly in intent, if not in act...vanilla or alternative
<en{TW}> certainly doesn't have to be writing...but i find that writing or reading something allows for more questions to come about and be discussed than a conversation
<KarenD> I believe that various forms of poly...are entirely individual, and not necessarily important to the D/s
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with Karen
<TrapperD> I agree with KarenD on this one.
<KarenD> the importance is that the individuals' views are compatible
* SiRmac{v} agrees with KarenD
<callay{TW}> are D/s relationsships more inclined to have poly aspects?
* fluxie[F] ammends polygamous with polyamorous...sorry
<`zee> there are many branches that are oppotunities yet not having to go that path is very acceptable too
<mary_M> I agree, karen, but it's like adding feta to your salad :}
<KarenD> but not everyone likes feta, mary_M :)
* `zee smiles
<en{TW}> but that is the thing can take one path, then move back and travel another....and do the old one over again....that's how to keep it interesting
<mary_M> I think so, cally, just because there is that trust that may not be there in vanilla
<mary_M> true karen
* callay{TW} nods
<KarenD> but I think that trust is there in vanilla relationships, for people who are vanilla...
<`zee> exactly, en{TW} fantasy's... you may travel through one and be satisfied with just that one..or go back for more or move onward to the next
<TrapperD> I've only had one experience with polyamory; it wasn't bad, but there was something lacking. It's hard to say what it was. It's just that when it's only the two of you you can really just be swept away. I suppose I have to give it another chance before I pronounce judgment, but for now, it's not an aspect of my life I feel needs to be developed.
<callay{TW}> so you are saying poly is an aspect that can be added to keep a 24/7 D/s relationship...interesting?
<`zee> TrapperD Sir..was the one experience just a one time event?
<en{TW}> well, i have found exploring one aspect of s/m or D/s...i tend to miss others that must be overlooked while focussing on the new we backtrack a lot
<en{TW}> and i really like that
<TrapperD> Well, it was sort of a one time thing. It was over a 3-day weekend.
<en{TW}> also....since TW and i are not totally focussed on bdsm alone....when those times are more intense...i feel they are more satisfying
<mary_M> perhaps I haven't had the right vanilla thing, but I never trusted anyone as I do now. I mean I never would have let anyone see me warts and all as I do now
<KarenD> I think perhaps there is something useful in defining the different branches of poly...
* fluxie[F] believes polyamoury, by its naterure lends itself to l/t more easily, but again that is not really on topic, sorry
<en{TW}> well, i was only pointingf out poly as an example of one way to "spice" things up...the level is really up to the individual
<fluxie[F]> "many cooks etc..."
<KarenD> there's polysexual, polyplaybutnosex, polyamory, polgymany...
<en{TW}> whichever is interesting to the people involved is the best type
<TrapperD> here here
<mary_M> nbicely put, karen
<sweetslave{AF}> maybe a poly discussion is a thought for another sunday then :)
<BernieRoehl> Yes - it's on the topic list, sweetslave
* sweetslave{AF} smiles to Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Probably early in the new year
* KarenD smiles 'indeed....can we go back to day to day stuff?'
* TrapperD has gone to se the facilities
<KarenD> I really liked that dom laugh rule..
<sweetslave{AF}> so did i!
<bottoms_up{RD}> so during the week.. when you come home, kids, dinner, laundry and all that stuff... its hard on vanillas to keep their life intersting as well as bdsm'ers
<en{TW}> what aspects of "day to day" life make the relationship *less* intense or interesting? or get in the way of it?
* fluxie[F] thinks compartmentalisation in d/s vs r/l has a higher chance to long term sucess
<en{TW}> exactly bottoms
* KarenD disagrees about compartmentalization
<BernieRoehl> Some compartmentalization is inevitable anyway, due to work/family/etc
<bottoms_up{RD}> so whatever secret we can find to keep D/s alive and intense.. should be shared with the who world *Grin* 
<sweetone{LT}> lol, karen, i like it too!
<bottoms_up{RD}> whole world ;)
<KarenD> the more integrated the life, the more the bdsm is there in everyday life
* fluxie[F] didn't think her theory would meet much favour <g>
<en{TW}> i have found...being realistic to what i want out of bdsm and what i want in a career, as a mom etc...then prioritize them...then try to balance them is best
<mary_M> OK  I will tell you that it seems hard to move between the compartments sometimes
* fluxie[F] sees bdsm as the "special part" used as spice to keep it interesting, not the full meal
<bottoms_up{RD}> i like that fluxie ;))
<en{TW}> i feel it can be detrimental to blend it too much....depending on what the other responsibilities are
* KarenD wants the full meal to be kinky :)
<bottoms_up{RD}> *giggles* 
<fluxie[F]> welll, maybe on weekends
<SiRmac{v}> i agree with that too.
<en{TW}> i want that too Karen...but i have come to terms with the fact that i can' i am much more comfortable now
* TrapperD is definately the full meal type. Just overly hungry I guess.
* KarenD smiles at Trapper
<lyxanna> i know that when i am in "mommy mode" there is no way to get me out of it other than time
<en{TW}> very true lyx
<en{TW}> or even work mode
<en{TW}> or "i just talked to my mom" mode
<mary_M> so how do you make the time, how do you get your head on right for a full meal deal when you have just come from PTA or whatever
<bottoms_up{RD}> if there was a magic formula ... to move from one mode to the next.. and not loose the spice... we would know about it already... vanillas have the same issue we do.
<TrapperD> D/s is, of course, more than just about sex. So I am not prepared to just relegate it to that part of my life.
<en{TW}> you appreciate the little elements that *are* there all the time
<`zee> 24/7 is what ever the two design it to be... there should be no measuring of the % just a life together as Y/you design it
* KarenD nods 'I don't have kids, and have no intention of ever having them, so I don't have that conflict. I recognize that it is a tough one for you folks who are parents'
<mary_M> so how do you keep it forefront, Trapper?
<BernieRoehl> And, related to that, what if one partner is ready for a full meal while the other is in work mode, mom mode, or sleep mode?
<en{TW}> like looking at your Master and kind of smiling...knowing who He is to you...while your dad sits across the table from
<mary_M> Bernie, that's it in a nutshell!
<TrapperD> It doesn't have to be 100% all the time, but never less then, say, 15-20%
<callay{TW}> so you cant be submissive if you jsut talked to family??
<Kilted_One> KarenD if you live 24/7 you have to deal with the real world as well which means that your meal comes with broccoli
<sweetslave{AF}> lol
<en{TW}> that's not what i mean callay...i am's part of me, not a behaviour
<bottoms_up{RD}> cute KO 
<mary_M> lol, ko
* sweetslave{AF} likes broccoli anyways
* fluxie[F] thinks that the same problem Bernie mentioned exists in any lt/relationships...when where and what priority?
<en{TW}> what i mean is...i can't always *show* it the way that i wish i could
<KarenD> so....I'm not dealing with the real world now, KO?
<lyxanna> or signalling to Him for permission for a cigarette, when the child is around
<mary_M> OOPS KO
<KarenD> like being single means I'm living in some kind of fantasy world?
<TrapperD> D/s is all about head-space and attitude. And that can be 24/7. Okay, not *just* about head-space and attitude. :)
<SiRmac{v}> you can set up an evening of 'play'. 
<en{TW}> i'm not so sure least not the way many people want or expect that "head-space" experience to be
<bottoms_up{RD}> well my head space gets caught up in the real world... problems, work, whatever
<Kilted_One> well wouldnt go that far KarenD, but you do have to deal with all of lifes lil prezzes
* callay{TW} nods
<LrdThomas> living bdsm 24/7 requires an understanding of what the power is that exchanges.  Imho, it is simple.... three things.... body, behaviour and attiude.... to the one you call master.... only!.... ergo, the lifestyle blends easily into daily routine, when each understands the parameters of the power exchanged.
<KarenD> I think I deal with all of life's little prezzes, KO....just different ones then you
<TrapperD> The little things that come up in day to day everyday life are what adds the spice, I think.
<en{TW}> i have learned to think of it as a challenge to go from one mode to the gracefully as
<mary_M> Lord Thomas, I find it hard to be what I am at work then come home and change my headspace like turning off a switch
<mary_M> is it just me?
* fluxie[F] just doesnt think life is as simple as LrdThomas cites, but each has their own way....
<en{TW}> no it's not mary
<mary_M> thank you, en
<Kilted_One> I would agree with that KarenD. you life a differnet life from me a different relationship that me gives differnt problems
<`zee> there are similiar challenges in the day to day D/s life of ones that are not in a 24/7 relationship as well
<TrapperD> Maybe it's easier for Doms? I'm not sure.... just a suggestion.
<`forbidden> what about setting up a time that when you come home from work ya kneel in a special place and get into the right 'head space'?
<SiRmac{v}> you can set up special times aside with your partner to play with
<mary_M> yes, zee there are
<KarenD> a life just as _real_ as yours, KO
<bottoms_up{RD}> now thats interesting forbidden... 
<en{TW}> Karen, i don't think KO was saying your life isn't real
<en{TW}> can we please drop it?
* KarenD has dropped it
<en{TW}> there are definately methods to get into that headspace
<mary_M> it's a good idea, frobidden, but where does my Dom go to get into his?
* sweetslave{AF} likes forbidden's idea
<`forbidden> i don't know about Doms cause i'm not one....
* fluxie[F] thinks holding to the state 7/24 for a Dom would indeed be easier than for a submissive...society tends to be more supportive of Power in our culture
* `abi smiles at forbidden .... a lovely idea ... if there aren't three kids wondering where dinner is and two dogs who need out to pee
<bottoms_up{RD}> out into the backyard and beat his chest, mary? *grin*
<`forbidden> but that's my suggestion being a submissive
<SiRmac{v}> like any relationship you have to set time aside to play 
<mary_M> good one, abi
<en{TW}> what's tricky is making sure that it is "wanted" by both people
<`forbidden> and i don't know how to work around children since i don't have any *soft smile*
* callay{TW} agress with SiRmac{v}:))
* `zee nods to en{TW}
<mary_M> very tricky
<SiRmac{v}> leave the daily probs aside and escape
<LrdThomas> methinks my ideas are being confused..... say for example the sub has a bad day..... does that entitle her to come home and rant on her master?  No.  it means she comes home and says... wow master what a shitty day.... and he understands and takes steps to make her relax.
<en{TW}> i have found in the past that when my Master and i would talk on the phone...even little conversations during the day...we kind of "reminded" each other of our "other" roles...sometimes
<bottoms_up{RD}> i have heard this discussion for many years.. sheesh i think even Oprah had it on once *giggles* .. how to keep the spice alive
<`zee> so many of us in relationships be they vanilla or not..let that part slide..has always been a problem of relationships since time
<LrdThomas> zactly forbidden.... that is an exacellent technique.
<en{TW}> so by the time we see each other at the end of the's kind of already established
<callay{TW}> it has been difficult adjusting to living 24/7...and dealing with Masters job....y2k.....fatigue....
<BernieRoehl> Is anyone familiar with the concept of "short leash" vs "long leash"? 
<`zee> yes BernieRoehl Sir
<mary_M> no tell us, Bernie
<fluxie[F]> yes
<BernieRoehl> The idea is that most of the time the submissive has a long leash -- lots of autonomy.
<BernieRoehl> At any time, though, the Dom can choose to signal a "short leash" time -- when stricter rules are followed and the protocols are more strictly enforced.
<SiRmac{v}> letters help to en
* en{TW} appreciates that my Master knows that me ranting at Him *is* sometimes the way for me to get the stress out :)
<callay{TW}> not me Bernie
* Kilted_One agrees with that Bernie
* fluxie[F] is more concerned with who ultimately owns the leash, in l/t  crisis-time, that can be important, one, the other, or a joint venture
<en{TW}> very good methods Bernie...allows the sub a warning
<`zee> the short leash can be a word..a look.. a sound
<mary_M> good one Bernie  I will take a note on that
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, en
<Johncin> hi all
<en{TW}> enough that she won't get pissed off with the "he let me do this last time...but now He's chaging everything" idea
* callay{TW} must be on a short leash most of the time...
<mary_M> explain that, fluxie
<BernieRoehl> I favour non-verbal signals, since they can be used anywhere (which is fun...) and require the sub to always be paying attention
* `zee grins to callay{TW}
-> [#bdsm-kw] PING
-`forbidden- thanks for the ping! at 21:52:26 on 12/05/99 ;) -=GltwQderk 4.0=-
-shimmer``- you love me!!!! you REALLY love me!!!!!!!!!
<`zee> would it be proper for the sub to also use that sound or signal when she needs or wishes to?
* KarenD smiles 'I've always had an interest in learning sign language'
<callay{TW}> but i supppose since i dont work, and my kids dont live with me that makes my situation different
<LrdThomas> i call it high vs low protocol.
<fluxie[F]> anything longterm, "real" crises that situation whether the leach is a thing imposed, a thing given, or a thing jointly built can have enormous consequence after the crises has passed
<mary_M> good idea zee, but would that be topping from the....
<KarenD> that would be very useful in bdsm relationships since so few vanillas know it....could have a kinky conversation right under their noses....give orders...etc
<cybersweet> and it is important for the sub to get signal for when she should be in each one...whether a look or a word.
<SiRmac{v}> non verbal used anywhere? not over long distance, at work etc
<callay{TW}> to tell the Master when she wants a shorter leash?
<mary_M> that would depend on negotiation or the relationship, fluxie
<`zee> is it 'topping' when she has a need to show her submission deeply... i think that would be exposing her deep vulnerablilty rather than her bossy things
<en{TW}> requesting more control is not topping from the's sharing feelings
<en{TW}> flipping out if you don't get it is when it's not good :)
* KarenD agrees with en
* `zee nods to en{TW}
* fluxie[F] has found a Dom being the best person once in dealing with a horrible time actually, so not Dom-bashing here, I needed to be "swept away" at that time (to a hospital) but I have also had that abused...I agree that a good negotiation and understanding of what the leas _is_ is essential
<mary_M> LOL, en  you are right
<BernieRoehl> Ideally, the Dom should be sensitive enough to know when the sub needs to have a shorter leash.  Whether to do so or not is, of course, up to the Dom.
<en{TW}> but if it is consistently not given...then it is a signal that this partner isn't compatible with you
<fluxie[F]> lol...that is what drives dogs crazy in _their_ training ;)
* callay{TW} agrees with can have long term repercusions
<BernieRoehl> Yes
<fluxie[F]> psychobabble calls that "crazy-making" 
<mary_M> is that the technical term ?
<mary_M> LOL
<fluxie[F]> I guess bdsm sits. can run a higher risk of that
<callay{TW}> question......are you saying that you have to have permission to shwo your submissivness??
* bottoms_up{RD} still has to deal with the fact that if a sub is NOT in sub mode.. the Dom has the 'right' to flip her switch... but when the Dom isnt in the mood to be in active Dom mode, the sub is SOL ;)
<fluxie[F]> *shrug* depends on the psych, I guess
<en{TW}> no callay...not me anyway
<fluxie[F]> permission to swho?
<fluxie[F]> show?
<mary_M> life just makes you cranky dont it, bottoms :}
<en{TW}> there are areas where i know TW feels it is inappropriate to show it in certain ways....of course
<callay{TW}> hm
<callay{TW}> is this normal for most relationshsips???
<bottoms_up{RD}> yup mary.. *giggles*  i just cant fully accept the limits of a sub yet ;)
<en{TW}> is what normal?
-Kilted_One- [OPNOTICE:#BDSM-KW] lyx please check your pvt msg from me
<mary_M> it is hard, bottoms, it just is
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles to mary ;)
<fluxie[F]> power aside, I would say vast disparity in basic rights is "normal" but unfortunate in lt/relationshits
<`abi> but consider bottoms, that it is much harder to accept the limits of not being a submissive
<KarenD> well, doesn't have to be like that bottoms, if that's how you negotiate your relationship to be...
<fluxie[F]> abi? are you saying it is easier to Dom l/t?
* bottoms_up{RD} smiles at abi.. now that is a whole NEW conversation ;)
<`abi> no fluxie, I'm saying it is more difficult to be a submissive who isn't living her submission
<fluxie[F]> ahhhh, ok, thanks
<KarenD> maybe you'll find a Dom that accepts he can't flip your switch at a whim, and he'll try to flip his for you when needed...
<TinWood> that's no fun bottoms_up...
<mary_M> in all seriousness, bottoms, you always have a right to get your needs met, you should always have the ability to ask
* snuggle{FF} agrees wholeheartedly with you just said abi
<bottoms_up{RD}> i come home and am in a lousy mood, the laundry is backed up and the inlaws are coming over for dinner... running around like a chicken with its head cut off... sub mode is far from my mind.. if anything i jump into Domme mode to get it dealt with and gain some control ;)
* BernieRoehl notes that there's no point in flipping a switch if the power is out... knowing *when* to flip the switch is important
<fluxie[F]> lol...or one less Dom on your list bottoms ;)
* bottoms_up{RD} chuckles at flux
<fluxie[F]> good analogy Bernie
* KarenD agrees with `abi....bigtime
<mary_M> Bernie, you are a dep thinker
* BernieRoehl smiles
<mary_M> deep even
<KarenD> it is difficult to be a submissive who isn't living her submission
<callay{TW}> i got lost in thte lag en sorry
* fluxie[F] is often at 0v bdsm for an hour or two after work...try and you would just fail anyways
<fluxie[F]> (fridays excepted)
<en{TW}> np
<bottoms_up{RD}> Bernie.. i truly like what you last said ;)
<callay{TW}> question......are you saying that you have to have permission to shwo your submissivness??  this was the question i asked...then asked if this was normal for most D/s relationshsips
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, bottoms
<SiRmac{v}> you can still seduce bottoms
<`zee> looks to the Doms wondering if They find it hard to be a Dominant who isn't living their Dominance?
<fluxie[F]> same goes for when a sub is needier...and needs Dom stuff, sometime it aint gonna happen..just wont
* KarenD grins at the thought of seducing bottoms ;)
* bottoms_up{RD} fwaps Karen.. behave ;)
* fluxie[F] equals consent with permission...both ways
* KarenD just smiles, lost in the thoughts....
<shimmer``> even when i wasn't in a relationship, i was still living my submission- it just took a different form ...
<mary_M> yes, but that is when communication needs to happen, fluxie
-cal{TW}- Your ping time is 1sec.
<fluxie[F]> agreed, and nothing can happen l/t without communication...7/24 or once a season...
<SiRmac{v}> agrees with Karen
<mary_M> very true, fluxie
<KarenD> I think this is kind of what I was trying to get to last week....shimmer, how did you live your submission without being in a relationship?
<en{TW}> so, on a more practical note...what do you people do day to day to keep that feeling of D/s there?
<`abi> nothing can happen either unless you have the ability to tap into your own submission
* bottoms_up{RD} shrugs.. since the beginning of time.. keeping spice in the life of a relationship has been a problem... it will ebb and flow. We just have to be aware of it and work at it harder now and again... but we do get caught up in real life now and again
<mary_M> I am listening for answers to that one, en :}
<lyxanna> talk on the phone....write stories....keep in as much contact as possible
<shimmer``> karen ... i am a submissive. how can i be anything else? whether it expresses itself with a Master or in my daily life, it is an inherent part of me, not something that vanishes just because there is no One in my life. Sure it's more difficult, but it's not being a submissive that's the difficult part.
<fluxie[F]> btw, I have noticed that bdsm and day to tay seems to assume basic couple and frequent (eg closeby, whatever) does the definition of l/t in this talk presuppose a one-on-one frequent play partnership as being the standard for long-term?
* cal{TW} prepares dinner for her Master, i prepare his shower for him, i have chores to do in the evening, i turn down the bed at night...i make his lunch for work the next day,set out his work clothes...all these things and more....these are the things he wants done...taht keeps it constant in my mind that we are 24/7
<mary_M> I am submissive, too  Just dont ask the people I work with
* switchhh grins at the thought of being seduced by a Top
<bottoms_up{RD}> even though i HATE to admit about 'homework' i find that it does keep me aware of who i am becoming.  Making me stop and think now and again, putting aside other lifes problems 
<KarenD> do you submit to coworkers? acquiese to decisions? I'm struggling with the how of it, not the philosophy of it
<en{TW}> agreed cal
<KarenD> I agree with the philosophy of it!
<en{TW}> i think it might be similar in that a gay person is gay if they are actively in a gay relationship or
<mary_M> yes, cal  but sometimes in doing so, I feel more like a manservant than a submissive 
<shimmer``> no, karen. it has nothing to do with work. if i'm submissive at work, people die. It's about the way i see my own internal world ... and the way i use my introspection to grow and change.
* fluxie[F] would have lost her last ten yrs employment, if I had let my submissiveness show at work, other than a talent for diplomacy (no laughing, pls;)
<shimmer``> yes en, exactly.
<en{TW}> true can feel like that if it is just done on that side...what can a Dom do to help that "feeling" as well?
* KarenD nods, trys to absorb that....
<cal{TW}> is that  a personal interpretation mary????i mean......if you think or are treated negatively for what you are doing, it would make sense to feel that way...i know that the things i am doing please Master.......
<mary_M> well? Doms?
<SiRmac{v}> letters on the pillow in the morning
<mary_M> oh no I dont feel negativity, but  sometimes put upon  the headspace isnt always right
* fluxie[F] couldnt do full time maid/cleaning lady work as part of a long-term bdsm agreement...sometimes as part of play, yes, but not full I guess that would have to be negotiated
<cal{TW}> oh sorry i misundersttood
* bottoms_up{RD} nods to fluxie... i am not a maid and that isnt part of bdsm to me eitehr
* KarenD does get it, just wants some 'hows' thrown in there too.....something concrete to grasp...
<fluxie[F]> yeah, on a longterm think _my_ kinks have to be respected too...carpentry...NO problem ;)
<LrdThomas> by definition, i cannot agree one is submissive w/o a master.  one can have submissive needs.  But dominance and submission is power exchange.... and if there is no one with whom to exchange power, one cannot be a submissive.
<en{TW}> one can be submissive...they just aren't submitting
<shimmer``> karen ... if the submission is inside of you, it is there... it will grow if you nourish it ...the outlet might be tough at times, but the submission courses in your veins ...
<mary_M> I apologize here    BUT sometimes I feel that my submissive "work" is always there without my getting out of it what I need  I mean to say that I feel like I do a lot 24/7, but he plays  know what I mean?
<cal{TW}> i guess for myself......there is a real sense of "completeness" in doing the things Master wants done...whatever they may be....I guess because he appreciates so much what i do, that make sit more pleasant 
<fluxie[F]> or not to a specific sort of Dom
<`abi> that's the old "is a carpenter still a carpenter if he isn't building something" question LT
<fluxie[F]> I liked the gay analogy
<BernieRoehl> (Just so people know... since it's after 10 pm, I'm going to turn off the automatic channel message.  Please keep chatting, and I'll keep logging, since this is a really interesting discussion!)
<shimmer``> LT Sir ... i am a submissive with or without a Master ... it's with a Master that it comes to fruition ...but the submission is inside me, regardless 
<KarenD> I know who I am and what I want from life....I know that I'm submissive....I just want to find ways to _be_ submissive....actively
<mary_M> karen, come clean my house  LOL
<bottoms_up{RD}> good one mary ;)
* `zee smiles and agrees with shimmer``
<shimmer``> LT Sir ...the peanut gallery says that substitute the word "slave" in your paragraph for "submissive" and He agrees with you
* shimmer`` hugs zee and gives her a kiss
<cal{TW}> probably the thing you could do karen....on your a way of training also.......its  beneficial to you personally...and prepares you for a possible future relationship................discipline yourself.......
<fluxie[F]> I am a sub with four "Masters" different agreements, different uses, but I still consider myself a "single" sub and consider myself a sub when the Lads/Lady are not active with me
<LrdThomas> if the carpenter is carping.... he's prolly watching football. <g>
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol
* shimmer`` giggles and says nada
* SiRmac{v} agrees with shimmer
<SiRmac{v}> mine too
<shimmer``> there is much chuckling going on here, LT Sir ;)
<SteelBlue> full in here. Hello bottoms_up{RD}, smile.
<bottoms_up{RD}> so i guess i am not going to write a best seller from this conversation tonight, huh? finding the elusive answer to the age old question... 'how to keep the spice in your life' *Grin*
<mary_M> well, I have to go, it was good hearing all that you guys had to say
<KarenD>, I'm guessing you mean corporal....but in that other sense....yeah, could do it. But that would mean I'd have to not go shopping like I did yesterday'
<bottoms_up{RD}> hiya SteelBlue *warm smiles* 
<en{TW}> i find that tasks help....remind me in the middle of my day what expectation my Master has of me...and those i have for myself
<fluxie[F]> all sorts of places ;)
<LrdThomas> if submission is offering over power in return for some set of responsiblities... i don't know how one can say they are submissive if their control has not been given.
<bottoms_up{RD}> lol
<cal{TW}> not sure what you mean by corporal
<KarenD> anyway....thanks all....lots to think about here
<mary_M> goodnight all
* `abi peers closely at SteelBlue, my ...ltns
<cal{TW}> i jsut mean......much of what i do requires me to be disaplined......
<LrdThomas> lol
<bottoms_up{RD}> en.. i am hating to admit it .. but tasks, writings, etc... would work for me.. to keep me aware 
<shimmer``> because, LT Sir ... submission is part of who i am, regardless of whether i give it up ... just as you are a Dom, regardless of whether you ahve a slave at that time
<KarenD> maybe I spelled it wrong, cal....I meant physical discipline...
<fluxie[F]> hmmmm...that goal thing almost sounded like a Dom is like a christian line "what would God  expect me to do" it does work at times
<SteelBlue> lol bottoms
<cal{TW}> no i didnt mean physical
<SiRmac{v}> would self discipline make you feel submissive
<`zee> LrdThomas Sir, most respectfully... tis submitting that is the power exchange.. than to You a Dom is not a Dom unless He owns a submissive?
<en{TW}> if teaching is giving information to someone who doesn't have it already...then i can't see how someone who is on vacation from their classroom can call themselves a teacher (isn't that the same thing?)
<SteelBlue> hey, abi, how are you!!!! ltns indeed....
* shimmer`` smiles and nods at zee
* KarenD smiles 'oh well then....I do completely agree....and you're right...that is a good way to keep it present in my life...
<shimmer``> en is too wise for me ;)))
* `zee leans over returning the kiss to shimmer``
<fluxie[F]> If a submissive gives up power( a great gift) for no apparent reason...what does that make them?
<LrdThomas> i have need for control but am not dominant if i have no one to control shimmer.  Likewise for you.
<shimmer``> i'm never dominant, LT Sir ;))
<cal{TW}> im not sure SiRmac{v}...i do know that it is a concsious chocie for me to disapline myself everyday...........and that the more i adjust to that.......the easier it becoems
<shimmer``> i respectfully disagree with you, LT Sir
<bottoms_up{RD}> hiya TubaMan :))
<fluxie[F]> but you might still be "a Dom" LrdT...that is a state, not an activity
<`zee> submissive is an adjective as is is a description
<bottoms_up{RD}> hmmm since i havent fully accepted being a sub.. maybe that is why out of a power exchange relationship i do not consider my self sub.. in thoughts or actions 
<KarenD> I do think that self-discipline is an important trait in a sub...a Dom shouldn't have to stand over her at every turn....tells her to do something and expects that she does it...on her own...
<`forbidden> hi Tuba_Man
<KarenD> so developing that on my own is a good thing....
<Tuba_Man> Hello bottoms_up .. `forbidden
<cal{TW}> i agree karen
* BernieRoehl is ending the discussion log
* KarenD smiles 'I'm working on it in every area but finances'
<bottoms_up{RD}> since we left the topic huh, Bernie? *smiles* 
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to maryM for suggesting the topic and moderating tonight's discussion
* BernieRoehl smiles at bottoms
* fluxie[F] is a bit of a self-discipline junkie....sometimes I fell if I ever find an outside person who can enhance me as would be a fair deal indeed :)
<bottoms_up{RD}> thank you mary *smiles* 
<`zee> BernieRoehl Sir may this girl message You for a moment?
<BernieRoehl> And thanks to everyone who participated.  Even our digression at the end was interesting!
<KarenD> Thank you mary_M was a great discussion
<BernieRoehl> Of course, zee
<`zee> thanks mary
<`zee> thank You Sir
<fluxie[F]> yes MaryM...caused a very active Sinday evening *hug*