December 3 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<Kilted_One> official start to the discussion folks...anyone wishing to leave or change their nicks should do so now
<Mltdwn> who is moderating?
<`melody> cirmilkstances hve a great bareing on it
<vixenVentear> yup....depends on T/their version of the relationship
<genigrrrl> no moderators
<Mltdwn> LOL
* zaRina` will lurk listen and learn,,,,
<Sardaukar> autumn would not a collar be more of a symbol of ownershio rather than a Right
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> true
<`melody> the rite to respect honor and truth..
<Mltdwn> Hi ravynne^
<Sardaukar> Personally I would think a Right of Ownership would be full disclosure, pure Honesty
<Sweetone{LT}> hi ravynne^
<ravynne^> hi Mltdwn...isn't the rights of ownership something that the parties agree upon before entering the relationships...discussed and negotiated??
<Sardaukar> and that would go both ways
<ravynne^> hi Sweetone{LT} :)
* Gaston58 agrees with ravynne^.
<Mltdwn> so what is one referrign to when they talk about 'Rights to Ownership'?
<Sardaukar> true ravynne, but don't you think there are some unwritten rights
<vixenVentear> agreed, Sar
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> like what Sardaukar?
<kaat> rights of ownership are not always is sometimes something that just happens...or grows
<ravynne^> that i don't know Sardaukar...
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> trust
<Gaston58> maybe basic respect for the Dom/me.
<jen{SE}> rights depend on the relationship, some say slave has no rights, some allow some rights
<`shado> unwritten rights as in what?
<`melody> truth without it there is no trust
<Gaston58> each couple is different. some would feel that ownership implies total control, while others are more... laid back.
<ravynne^> trust is earned over time..its not a right autumn_breeze{JFC}...but that's my opinion
<vixenVentear> but there is the initial negotiations....the things progress, change and grows.
<S_W> to define ownership is to derscribe the rights which come with it...but in general - I think as the terms is used in a hardcore 24/7 sense - the rights of Ownership are near absolute
<Sardaukar> such as ..autumn ( please excuse the short form hard to type), such as terms used such as Sir Master or Van'she when addressing the Dom ...please feminize where needed
<zaRina`> i would be interested in knowing if right of ownership is also enhanced by pride IN ownership
<kaat> but there isn't always negotiations vixenVentear
* vixenVentear tackles the stuffin outta alezzia
<this_lil_kitten> well, there are legal limits.
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> trust should bethere from the beginning
<`shado> so the use of Sir is an unwritten right?
<alezzia> smiles hello to all
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> agreed zaRina
<Sardaukar> of Ownership I would think so unless personal preference isstated
<vixenVentear> most definitely, zaRina`
<`shado> in which case it's not really an unwritten right
* vixenVentear personally believes that there should always be a start of some sort of negotiations, kaat
<subsparks> a type of D/s contract in the relationship should be negotiated to give the uniquie defination of Right to Owernship to each different relationship
<Sardaukar> no it is a unwritten right, but if the pref of the Dom/me is that which they wish not to be called it then they are giving up that " inherent right" (lack of better term
<vixenVentear> at the very least a verbal one, subsparks
* kaat smiles...then that is what is good for is merely a statment that many times there is no negotiation...I agree is a good thing...but I have been in relationships where there is no negotiation...
<this_lil_kitten> you've got to have "some" form of negotiation. You don't jump into a relationship not knowing anything about each other's expectations.
<Kilted_One> "Ownership" only comes with slavery no???.....and if it is slavery we are discussion then the slave has no right right??
<subsparks> yes unwritten and verbal of course
<kaat> why must there be negotiation this_lil_kitten?
<vixenVentear> that is an individual characteristic to each personal relationship tho, KO
* ravynne^ looks at Kilted_One...but a slave is also a human being therefore she DOES have rights Sir
<this_lil_kitten> not necessarily... to use a TOTALLY AWFUL comparison. My cat is mine, but not my slave.. it's subjective to the individual
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> no KO i consider myself owned and i am a sub
<Sardaukar> Ownership is not just limited to slavery KO though that is where the term is most comman, but even in the lightest D/s relationship Ownership is present
* zaRina` thinks you can own something, and tend and care and safeguard it, treasure and enhance it, or stick it on a shelf, marked as your own, but have no use for it
<this_lil_kitten> negotiotions at minimum: conversation about likes/dislikes/each others kinks, expectations of relationship.
<Gaston58> negotiations are important so both parties know what each other wants and must give to each other.
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> nimeesha do you consider youself owned ?
* Mltdwn feels there is discussion....but no negotiation.....this is what I expect....and you will do it or you will not Be owned by Me....take it or leave it....your last choice...
<Sardaukar> the symbol of the collar is prevelent to show ownership of a sub/slave
* Gaston58 nods in agreement with this_lil_kitten.
<Mltdwn> and then you discuss what that entails....elliminate any misunderstandings
<`shado> agreed Mltdwn
* vixenVentear ^5's zaRina`
<this_lil_kitten> otherwise you go in blind and it could end up being a relationship that blows up in a week.
<jen{SE}> agrees with Mltdwn, Master said first word to go from my vocabulary was "NO" *lol*
<kaat> but why this_lil_kitten...why is it something you Must do
<Mltdwn> discuss them...not negotiate them
<Mltdwn> My way or no way.
<kaat> agreed...but any relationship can blow up...I don't say that they are bad...negotiations they are
<Mltdwn> I live for Me as wnat to be My slave you become part of My vision...not a meding of two'
<Mltdwn> melding even
* kaat nods to Mltdwn...exactly...that is the way it has been with me...his way or the highway
<this_lil_kitten> Mltdwn... doesn't it have ***Something*** to do with mutual love and respect?
<alezzia> I'm sorry, there are different kinds of relationship and slavery. They are all defined differently.
* kaat nods and agrees with alezzia
* Kilted_One thinks that the only right that a r/l slave has (and that is a free choice slave) is to disolve the arrangement and leave...
<`melody> but there must be some discussion.. we all carry personal issues or even phobias into relationships.. we in perfect cirmilkstances hope to grow and set them aside.. but a pure trust and ability to freely and openly comunicate must be there....
* Gaston58 nods. There should be some..... feeling between the relationship, not just "Do what I say."
<Mltdwn> agreed melody
<Mltdwn> you discuss lots
<Sweetone{LT}> <LT> the laws of Canada come first. The rights of ownership in the personal relationship involve first the master outlining his vision and goals for his life, then specifically identifying the powers he seeks and will accept from a slave. If accepted those become his rights of ownership.
<Sardaukar> From the Dom/mes in the group tonight , what are some of the Right of Ownership you must hace?
<zaRina`> i will do as i am told, but what i am being told to do, should be in the best interest of all involved,,otherwise its just being bossy isnt it?
<kaat> but each relationship is different...what I am saying is that it shouldn't necessarily be a "must" thing to do. I think negotiations are good...but not something that has to be
<this_lil_kitten> well, kaat, if you're going to base your relationship on the fact that one is a dom and one is a sub, and not look any deeper, ie: discuss/negotiate otherwise you have no idea WHO you're with
<alezzia> KO, yes that is true in some respects, but I was once in a relationship where I did not have the right to leave it.
<Kilted_One> of course there are differences vixen, but we are not talking the content of the relationship we are discussion the rights or the ownership
<this_lil_kitten> "what??? you want to use my mouth as a toilet?" I mean, think about that...
<Mltdwn> and I will
<Mltdwn> :)
* `glory grins
<Gaston58> I can understand that some people feel they "need" to be controlled in every aspect, but IMO, that can lead to very dangerous situations.
<kaat> who says that it doesn't go any deeper? *confused look*
* S_W has to agree with Kilted_One on the strict logic of it - though that of course - is not for everyone and hardly goes to the root of the relationship
<Kilted_One> alezzia that is not legal or tolerable in the modern have the right to leave
<Stevius> has anyone ever heard that absolute power corrupts absolutely
* Gaston58 nods.
<vixenVentear> KO....that's precisely what I was talking about.....each joining is different....variety is the spice of kink, as they say
<this_lil_kitten> some feeling> I have some feeling for my rats... I LOVE my Dom.. BIG difference
* kaat tries to understand...thinking that she was just considered superficial...(very concerned look)
<Sweetone{LT}> rights of ownership do not have to be absolute, they can be regarding the body only as an example
<alezzia> True, but difficult none the less. Each contract is different.
<vixenVentear> so very, very true Gaston58
<S_W> when a slave can leave - the power is hardly absolute (and the essence of submission is that it is, at heart, illusory).
<Nsty^Devil{b}> peek a boo
<Mltdwn> we can sit and say different strokes for diff folks...but lets go past that and define some common ground rules/rights
* Sardaukar So are there any rights that are shall W/we say inherent?
<`melody> does a slave ever truely leave... or does he or she carry a part of that Master in them forever... .. i belive in essence ownership is forever
<alezzia> Personally, I think that as a slave I have the right to expect that decisions made for me will not cause me harm in any way.
<Nsty^Devil{b}> i beleive that is an understanding that both parties agree upon
* Kilted_One thinks that some may be confusing the "fantasy" aspect about being owned as a "slave" and really being "owned' as a slave
<this_lil_kitten> that's not what I meant kaat, I meant at the initial onset of the relationship... or before that. You discuss what your expectations are, He might say "do as your told, but the negotiation part is that you may reject or accept that offer, OR he might be the type to compromise"
* kaat nods and agrees with alezzia...exactly
<Sweetone{LT}> S_W, between the time the collar goes on and comes off, the powers can be absolute, and very real
<jen{SE}> the underlying right of safety, i must be able to trust that i am safe under His control
* kaat nods...thank you for the clarification this_lil_kitten...I was worried there...but my comment is merely that that does not hold true for some relationships...even ones that work very well...there are no negotiation
<S_W> the heart of it as I have stated Sweetone{LT} - and that is its paradox <Sorry>
<this_lil_kitten> what I meant was you have to do it then, because if you leave it, and just start off on the basis of "this shoud work ie: I'm a sub, he's a Dom" you're not likely going to find out as much as you should initially
<alezzia> jen, that is exactly right. It does not always happen that way.
* Sardaukar Well said jen
<Masterguny> Evening
<vixenVentear> Gaston58.....the effects of ownership/TPE/whatever one wants to call it, can definitely be a dangerous thing on E/everone's's an extreme lifestyle W/we all lead....and nobody's an expert
* Gaston58 doesn't think there are any "Hard and fast" Rights of Ownership that are applicable to -every- relationship. Each one is different.
<Sardaukar> very true Gaston58
<kaat> agreed Gaston58
<Mltdwn> I think there are a few constants no matter the relationship
<candie```> how about some basic rights? truth, honesty, trust and respect.. on both sides..
<S_W> I thinks we are confusing a discussion of D/s relationships and Onership in the MAster/slave sense. They are two very different and unique concepts - albeit - with muich overlapping in practice
<Sardaukar> and they are? Mltdwn
<Mltdwn> exactly candie```
<`shado> IMO the rights are whatever was laid out and accepted...nothing prior to that is inherent
* vixenVentear concurs with `melody about that forever thang
* Gaston58 nods to candie. Very true. but those are rights in -any- DS relationship.
<Kilted_One> candie you may be confusing "expectations' with "rights"
<candie```> not in some I've seen unfortunatley
<Sweetone{LT}> any relationship, not just bdsm
<Mltdwn> is there not right to ownership in all d/s relationships tho?
<Mltdwn> no matter the level?
<Gaston58> even moreso in BDSM.
<autumn_breeze{JFC}> i think there is ownership of some sort in all D/s and we cannot define it because it is different in each example
<this_lil_kitten> KO, I think everyone has a right to be respected by their partner....
<Masterguny> talk about a switch...transtesticle
<zaRina`> LS owns my ass, but has earned my heart
<this_lil_kitten> otherwise, you blur the line between what is BDSM and what is abuse...
<S_W> I do not belive so Mltdwn. I think Master/slave and D/s are different. D/s is always implied within Master/slave-e but the reverse is not true.
<Kilted_One> I would say that you should "expect" respect, but it is not a right
<Masterguny> with the click of a mouse****POOF ***** gone
<Mltdwn> in a relationship it IS a right IMO
<this_lil_kitten> well, if you stick it in ye olde contract, it would be :)
<`shado> this_lil_kitten.....if the relationship is set that respect is not there and both parties agree who are we to say it's wrong
<this_lil_kitten> true...
<Gaston58> I think there -should- be respect (Dom for sub and sub for Dom.) even if the sub wants to be "used and abused". There should be an underlying "s/he's letting me hurt him/her. I must be careful."
* this_lil_kitten falls off her chair laughing
* vixenVentear *PERKS* switch???
<candie```> ok, respect needs to be earned, but I wouldn't want to be involved with someone I didn't respect
<`shado> thus it all comes down to what the people involved in the relationship have agreed to ....nothing is a given right on either side
<Gaston58> sometimes "Owners" can take their subbies for granted... because they feel they "own" them already.
<`melody> people must show others respect at all times.. trete noone how you wish not to be treatyed.. trust loyality.. and a willingness to expand and learn..
* kaat nods and smiles to melody....
<kaat> that is indeed true Gaston58...that can happen
<S_W> I guess my point Mltdwn is that you are implying a TPE in all D/s - and I don't see it that way. I see it as varying grades. Now - for you - perhpas all your D/s relationships are TPE - but there are some - many - which are not.
<Kilted_One> the truth is that there are a lot of ppl in our lifestyle that dont treat ppl with respect all the I said it is expected but not a right
* Gaston58 nods to candie```. Exactly. But not respect because the person is a Dom or is good with a crop/flogger/etc... but because you just... well... respect the person for who he or she is.
* candie``` nods
<S_W> when you talk then of Rights of Ownership - to me - it impleis a TPE MAster/slave relationship where the rights are what Kilted_One has stated - the right to leave.
<this_lil_kitten> shado, I mean: if you haven't got respect (lets say, Dom has no respect for sub) it puts any sort of BDSM activity on a very superficial level... there's none of the trust/caring/consentual exchange... it's just do what i say/f-you/power taken
<Mltdwn> Understood S_W /
<Mltdwn> and agreed
* Gaston58 nods with this_lil_kitten.
<`melody> has sadly seen a slaves heart wyther from negelct or a Master treated poorly... those things should never happen a prise so are should be cherished
<`shado> look around this_lil_kitten...there are tons out there doing just that
* vixenVentear nods
<Gaston58> doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing, `shado.
<zaRina`> why take on the responsibility of ownership if its not something you really are ready for, or want to be bothered with? A question to the Doms,, what is your responsibility in accepting (or assuming) the right to own someone?
<this_lil_kitten> well, I value respect as a foundation of any relationship.. whether it's with a prof at school or S_W... whatever...
<`shado> not for me to say Gaston58.....i live my life my way not to suit others
<Mltdwn> to ensure safetly and wellbeing....
<Kilted_One> well S_W there is another have the last two words in every discussion....."yes Master"
<Masterguny> Oh way to much zaRina` :-)
<S_W> I think the fantasy of it is appealing to many zaRina` - but the reality is not thought through.
<kaat> lol...good point Kilted_One
<`melody> to be apreciated.. both sides..
<Mltdwn> to teach and allow your slave to grow and deveope
* this_lil_kitten stifles a giggles
<Mltdwn> ...
<Mltdwn> to love and respect them
<Masterguny> to watch out for them at all times
* S_W writes that old chestnut of Kilted_One's down for later reference :-)
* vixenVentear giggles at Mltdwn.....seems a girl's heard that a few times.....LOL
<Mltdwn> to use them as you see fit taking that all into account
<Mltdwn> ??? vixenVentear
* Sardaukar IMO the responsibility is to love , protect from undo harm, to listen and learn to help them be what they can be
<Gaston58> okay... question: Do people here see the situation portrayed in "The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty" to be something to work towards, or fantasy?
<Sweetone{LT}> <LT> responsibility is to manage the powers accepted in a healthy, growing, mature, and nututing way...with a healthy dollop of fun thrown in
<Masterguny> To give them what they desire and know the diffrence between pure fantasy and what you can share
<alezzia> There is a philosophy that it is not wise to love a slave.
* kaat nods and agrees with Sardaukar...unfortunately many don't realize the responsibility that goes with that
<Kilted_One> love?? many think that love should not be in a master/slave relationship at all
<`shado> that's a work of fiction Gaston58
<Gaston58> why is it not wise to love a slave?
<S_W> fantasy Gaston - or more to the piint - fiction :-)
<kaat> why not Kilted_One?
* Mltdwn disagrees alezzia :)
<zaRina`> cause its easy to become too soft
<ravynne^> alezzia or vise versa how many times has one heard to keep their heart locked away??
<Sweetone{LT}> why would anyone not want to love the most important person in their life??
<Sardaukar> that is true KO...but for Me personally if I want a molly maid I will hire one.
<Kilted_One> it hinders the masters/mistresses ability to make the correct decisions
<Mltdwn> agreed Sweetone{LT}
<Mltdwn> I disagree KO
<Mltdwn> It asssists
<S_W> if hardcoe 24/7 D/s is your goal - love can get in the way. It adds - but it takes. IT is a trade-off.
<zaRina`> as an envelop pusher myself,,i know sometimes lean back on "love' when i know had he not loved me as much as he does,, he would have not held back and whupped me siilly
<Sardaukar> it only hinders those who should not be owning slaves in the first place
<`abi> I'd disagree with that KO ... or at least acknowledge that inverse is true ... love in the relationship makes things possible which would not be possible without it
<Mltdwn> agreed abi
<quiet`one> 24/7 can be difficult
* Gaston58 personally can't see why someone would get involved in D/s if there's no emotional attatchment/eros/philos/love attatched.
<Sweetone{LT}> <LT> agrees whole heartedly Sardaukar
<Mltdwn> I could not take My slave where we will go if it were without love
* Kilted_One smiles and notes that abigaille note that it was not necessarily my opinion
<this_lil_kitten> it depends... what is a 'correct' decision depends in part on what you r relationship with the sub is. A decision may be right simply because it's what is right in the context of you love them/you don't love them.
<Masterguny> If it is an exchange and it is to be fufilling then I believe it invloves emotions and with time emotions turns to love
<vixenVentear> agreed 100% abi
<Stevius> right, why would you do any of this if not for love
<Gaston58> agreed, Masterguny
<zaRina`> its my responsibility to not use the heart string,, and accept when i dont like the decision (sighs, i do try)
<S_W> it adds - but it takes; So - it follows - can you OWN someone you are in love with? - in the Master/slave sense
<Gaston58> I think so.
<Masterguny> Yes
<alezzia> ravynne, often it is because the Dom feels it causes them to loose the edge. I feel differently.
<`abi> yes S_W, you can ... but if it were easy, everyone would do it
* zaRina` thinks you can,,if you want to
<Sweetone{LT}> of course S_W
<ravynne^> it can enhance the edge as well alezzia ;)
<Sardaukar> yes you can can own their heart their soul, and still love them, decisions may not be easy but they are made,
<Sardaukar> If you can not make the decisions, then do not own a slave
<Masterguny> It gives you what inside no one has seen and a bond that forever binds you
<elegantsarah{DEM}> may I ask what exactly, the question is?
* Gaston58 knows a Domme who is married to her slave and loves him dearly. They have open discussions about when she gets "Soft" on him, and it actually is a -good- thing, because it renews her fiendishly creative sadistic streak.
<ravynne^> imo alot of Doms might feel that if they are capable of loving...they might be seen as weak? this true?
* Kilted_One laughs just a little and adds to Sardaukar's comment and says that if you cant make the decisons then...."you become the slave"!!!!
<Mltdwn> I think you can always maintain that 'edge' even with may have to tell yourself that I am doing this to doesnt appear that I love you at the time perhaps...but I do so deeply that I am sharing this with you.
<Masterguny> If it is the basis for the relationship it will continue it will also change as everything does
* Gaston58 doesn't think so, ravynne^. Love can further the relationship.
<Sardaukar> Question: what are some Rights of those present have been discussed or negotiated in their relationships ...past or present
<lamb`chop> exactly Mltdwn
<Sardaukar> Aye brother KO
<S_W> no rav - it is not - and again - IO think the term you use in the context of a Master/slave discussion is a little off base.
<zaRina`> if i were to be married, i would ,, for the right person,, include the word obey,,but if i had no intention of obeying, i wouldnt put that agreement into the promise,,
<Masterguny> My slave has the right of desion over her children
<elegantsarah{DEM}> DEM and I negotiated a contract which, on the whole works well, however life does intervene and in a loty of cases, I do not necessarily defer to His decisions
<Sardaukar> nods to Mastergunny
<S_W> WEll - one right an owner has is for other assholes in channel to leave his sub alone when the PM"s are unwanted.
* kaat nods to Masterguny...that is one thing I will never give daughter is my one has a right to make a decision about her but me
<zaRina`> but would you accept His help kaat?
<Masterguny> she asked for it I included it in the contract
<Sardaukar> Anyone else?
<kaat> unquestionably zaRina`...but I would be the final
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> good one S_W!
<Nsty^blush> another right that blush has is anything about her job/career
<ravynne^> the right to work...some Doms/Masters do not want their sub/slaves to work...
<elegantsarah{DEM}> but even that, SW, I would see as her responmsibility to control;
<Nsty^blush> as long as it doesn't interfere with our relationship
<Mltdwn> I have right to those IMO
<Mltdwn> I have rgiht to all
<Kilted_One> S_W..everyone in this channel has the right to be asked in open channel to be pm'd before they are pm'd.....individuals not abiding by that rule can and will and have been kicked
<Mltdwn> and maintain that I will regard your welbeing
* zaRina` thinks i could be supported in a manner i would grow acustomed to, if the chance came,, hmmmm domestic goddess instead of commuter goddess,,,
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> KO in submission these assholes PM without asking
<ravynne^> lol zaRina`
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> they don't need to ask first
<Kilted_One> autumn`breeze{JFC} I said in here....cant speak for anywhere else
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> sorry in here it does not happen
<Mltdwn> My slave will be My property and will do as I see fit. and be given what I choose for them
<ravynne^> Mltdwn? i don't undersetand You are saying You have the right of YOur subs choice to support hereself??
<vixenVentear> it's not uncommon ravynne^
<Nsty^blush> of course rav, if the sub/slave has offered to give Him that right... so be it
<Mltdwn> yes ravynne....she would live w. Me...
<Gaston58> and My slave will cook my dinner and suck My peepee because -I- say so, dammit! <rolls eyes>
<this_lil_kitten> god, I'm sorry, but that sounds... uh,,, harsh... heartless even. Maybe it's just the wording.
<Mltdwn> and if I chose for her to not werk that would be My choice.
<`shado> if that's what she's agreed to Gaston58 yes she will
<Mltdwn> I would consider all the factors involving that any other choice.
* lamb`chop grins at `shado ..and some slaves even like to suck cocks! ;)
* Sardaukar Question to the sub/slaves: are there any Rights a Dom has requested that you have diagrred with or flat out refused to give?
<zaRina`> in making that choice tho, i dont doubt Mltdwn would have made provisions to ensure she did not go without
<ravynne^> i see...ok and if the slave/sub needs things like medication or other...You supply her with that too?
<kaat> to date Sardaukar...none
<lamb`chop> exactly zar
* jen{SE} no have given Master all rights
<Sweetone{LT}> this_lil_kitten, there is a responsibility in ownership...
<vixenVentear> as They all should in that kind of cirmilkstance, zaRina`
<Mltdwn> of course!
<zaRina`> so He has taken His decision to excercise His right appropriatly
<S_W> of course rav - I would think that is a Master/slave chooses that level of ownership - he chooses that level of responsibility.
* dalian has not...once the collar is on it is His rules...period..and i always have the right to beg release and leave
<Nsty^blush> <blush> Yes.. i have refused to give the right to any of my family relationships over to any Dom.... that along with my son.. and my career
<vixenVentear> not with complete rights of ownership, Master Sar
<zaRina`> it cannot be all give give do as i say, suck and fork and oh by the way your not permitted to do this anymore, just cause i feel bossy tonite
<Kilted_One> there is only really one be her Master and owner
<Mltdwn> agreed S_W
<`shado> if the sub/slave refuses Sardaukar then she/he leaves the relationship because they are not living up to what they agreed to
<this_lil_kitten> what tdoes that have to do with talking about the most loved person in your life like a kitchen appliance, Sweetone{LT}?
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> Our Dom has requested nothing we would not do,
<Mltdwn> that is your choice Nsty^blush ....
<Mltdwn> and My slave would
<zaRina`> but if you are prepared to accept the concequenses behind excersising the right and responsibility of ownership,, then go for it
<elegantsarah{DEM}> I refused His right to allow me to use furniture as
<Nsty^blush> that was agreed upon before any contract was signed tho
<Mltdwn> and I would then decide how much she will be responisble for in My household..
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> and we trust He would not go beyond our limits
<Nsty^blush> sarah... you don't use chairs or anything???
<Mltdwn> agreed autumn`breeze{JFC}
<`melody> the last choice given the slave before ownership is to belong after this all choices are null and void
* Sardaukar very true KO
<ravynne^> ok that's a slave..but what about a sub??
* Mltdwn smiles at mel
<this_lil_kitten> it depends on the individuals involved...
<nimeesha{JFC}> A Dom that knows His sub well would not ask her to give over the rights to anything she would not want to....but it is the Dom's position to guide His sub into making the right decisions
<elegantsarah{DEM}> No....but one of the contracts we founbd on the net suggested that a sub couldn't use furniture without permission.....I vetoed that....hard limit, I suppose.....:)
<ravynne^> a sub has choices even within ownership ...
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> agreed sis
<Nsty^blush> <blush> i disagree with that melody... there is still negotiation of the finer points in some cases
<this_lil_kitten> situations can change, and not all Master's are so harsh and uncaring that they would not hear and consider the sub/slave's case after the contract is finalized/signed
<Nsty^blush> LOL sarah... we found the same contract i guess, and we both veto'd it as well...
<`shado> negotiation would indicate that the sub/slave has some control within the relationship would it not?
<this_lil_kitten> that is where respect for them comes in.
<Mltdwn> and Master would take the rights of his slave and not guide her but make the right decisions
* Kilted_One nods to shado
<zaRina`> contract? hmmmm i dont have a contract
<this_lil_kitten> it means he/she has the right to set limits...
<S_W> Question: Is every sub a slave?
<Nsty^blush> <blush> i don't know if control is the right word.. but input.. definately.. she is also a part of the relationship and effects the outcome of things as well
* zaRina` is simply LS
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i think we can cross over at times
<ravynne^> zaRina` do you feel you need a contract? and if so why?
<`melody> this works for me alone.. each individual will vary
<`shado> sub and slave are lavels...each relationship defines what that is
<Mltdwn> no S_W
<kaat> that would depend on your definition of slave S_W....everyone's is different
<`abi> but you probably have expectations within your relationship zarina ... that is an unwritten contract of sorts
<Calentra> hello all
<this_lil_kitten> You know the answer to that S_W....
* kaat nods and smiles to shado...exactly
<Kilted_One> submissives and slaves are not the same and should not be confused with has choices..the other has only one
<Sardaukar> No S_W there is a difference
<Mltdwn> slave = to give up all right of ownership
<Mltdwn> IMO
* dalian nods
<Mltdwn> :)
<`shado> again KO that depends on how the relationship is defined
<Mltdwn> a sub may not
* jen{SE} slave = property
<zaRina`> i never considered needing one,, i decided to let someone into my heart,,He chose to capture it,, what He does to honor and protect it, in His ownership of it, does not need to be written down
* dalian smiles and agrees
<Sardaukar> and in that difference there is multiple levels of what they are
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> i feel like a slave to my kids LOL
* lyxanna thinks we are getting off on a different tangent again....that being definitions
<zaRina`> (however, i dont disagree with the idea of having one,, for the record
<dalian> well put Zar...i agree wholeheartedly on that point
<`melody> am slave to my job and kids
<S_W> OF COPURSE there is a difference - the questions was asked to prompt those who were mixing concepts in the discussion to realize their error Sardaukar :-)
* this_lil_kitten is a slave to a certain Molecular Cell Biology text right now
* S_W stops being Socratic
<nimeesha{JFC}> contracts can be verbal and change as the relationship changes...
* this_lil_kitten raises her hand...
* Gaston58 smiles at this_lil_kitten.
<this_lil_kitten> what about ownership rights when it comes to what happens outside the relationship... or what is brought into it?
* lyxanna can be a slave, sub, slut, masochist or even a piece of furniture at any moment, but thinks it is the relationship itself, not the labels that make for ownership
<Mltdwn> whats up this_lil_kitten
* autumn`breeze{JFC} hmmm forgot to sign that contact before you left lol
<dalian> that would be decided upon by the one who owns you
<kaat> do you have examples of what you mean this_lil_kitten
* vixenVentear *PERKS* slut????
<Mltdwn> outside of the relationship a slave has to make
<Mltdwn> they are not a slave to all...just to ME :))
<nimeesha{JFC}> i think it all boils down to communication...a Dom and His sub need total open ongoing communication to meet each others needs
<this_lil_kitten> like say.... should the sub have a say in who she may be well, for example, given away to?
<this_lil_kitten> that person would have to be trusted, responsible, etc...
<lyxanna> if that is the type of relationship, then yes
<Nsty^blush> <blush> that is something that should be agreed upon in the contract stage i think kitten
<lyxanna> if not then no
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> exactly
<zaRina`> why would you give away your prized posession?
<dalian> and if
<this_lil_kitten> Oh I don't know zar LOL... good question
<nimeesha{JFC}> *ears perk* sign what breeze?
<lyxanna> some do, that is their way
<ravynne^> zaRina` i have seen it done
<this_lil_kitten> I dunno.. temporarily for kicks I guess?
<`forbidden> because you can only lend that which you truly own zaRina`.... or so i've been told
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> the contract honey
<ravynne^> maybe as a test?
<zaRina`> Gents? care to answer that one?
<`shado> nicely put forbs
* S_W chuckles
<khyrah> greetings A/all
<this_lil_kitten> I'm just saying... he/she would have to consent, in contract
* Sardaukar would not give away anything
* elbowfetish would loan rather than give away.
<`forbidden> thanks `shado i shall pass along the compliment to the one who told me :)
<Nsty^blush> give away??? how bout rent???
<this_lil_kitten> but what happens if mid relationship, the Dom/Master wants to change the contract....
<elegantsarah{DEM}> we signed a contract, perhaps as others decide to get married. For us, it was a statement we wanted to make to each other. However, it has not been static
<this_lil_kitten> ?
<`shado> and that's you Sardaukar.....some would...again it's all in the relationship's definition between the people involved
<Sweetone{LT}> zaRina`, for some a slave is nothing more than a contracted service personnel, no different from an employee who can be given to another
<Mltdwn> well said forbidden
<lyxanna> why gents?
<Kilted_One> zaRina`....if I no longer could support her.....if it was in her best interest.....if the situation was better giving her name but a few
<`forbidden> thanks Mltdwn
* lyxanna knows of some femDoms that have "lent out" their slaves
<Mltdwn> answer which one?
<elegantsarah{DEM}> Ypu cannot expect a relationship to remain static
<nimeesha{JFC}> *winks at breeze and ponders the idea of not remembering a certain Someone mentioning signing anything*
* Sardaukar ussually most Contracts are living Contract , thus can be changed at any time IF both parties agree
<this_lil_kitten> but contracts are static, that's the problem...
<S_W> I think the question was with respect to a less than a permanent basis than the sort of reasons you proferred Kilted_One
<Nsty^blush> <blush> that is why in our contract there is a clause stating that things may be added to it at any time and the contract should be reviewed periodically for that purpose
<Mltdwn> a slave can be given out/lent...I am proud of My slave...and her asseets......why should others not be able to enjoy them...?
<this_lil_kitten> yeah, but there's the situation where one agrees under duress.
<autumn`breeze{JFC}> only teasing he had other ideas *wink*
<elegantsarah{DEM}> no....they are not necessarily....there can be clauses/ built in times for things to be renegotiated
<Nsty^blush> i agree Mltdwn
<`forbidden> send her over Mltdwn ;)
<this_lil_kitten> "He'll be done with me if I don't kinda thing"
<Sweetone{LT}> not necessarily this_lil_kitten
<lyxanna> some write in ending clauses, where the contract lasts a certain amount of time
<Nsty^blush> <blush> then that is not a healthy relationship in the first place kitten
* Sardaukar Well F/folks it is almost 10pm , and the formal discussion is almost over , any Final words regarding tonights Topic for the Record?
<nimeesha{JFC}> *giggles*
<lyxanna> no contract about bdsm is legally binding, therefore duress is not an issue
<Sweetone{LT}> how would a slave under responsible ownerhip be signing something under duress?
<this_lil_kitten> it *can" be that situation... "oh look at Hom ,he wants it so bad... I *think* I can live with it"
<`abi> that could be true of any aspect of the relationship this_lil_kitten
<this_lil_kitten> internal struggle.. Dom never knows she doesn't wann
<this_lil_kitten> a
<`shado> if you *think* you can you best think some more
<Mltdwn> she can give ya yer prezzie forbi :))
<this_lil_kitten> yeah, but other relationships don't have contract
<`forbidden> YA!!!!!!!!! :)
<zaRina`> so dont own what you dont intend to keep?
<vixenVentear> E/everyone's different....and things grow and's just a fact of life...not just the lifestyle.
<Nsty^blush> <blush> makes sense to me zaR!