November 30, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Creative Cruelty". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<jewel`{F}> Guny good evening Sir
<MasterGuny> hi ya jewel`{F}
<MasterGuny> who wants to start?
<MasterGuny> were is everyone LOL
* drauma{MzTyger} thinks it best to defer to MasterGuny
<MasterGuny> Creative cruelty..the only thing that brings to mind is a sub and nipple clamps long time ago
* drauma{MzTyger} listens
<jewel`{F}> what does one consider to be creative cruelty?
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would guess a surprise tot he submissive
<MasterGuny> it was a long distance relationship and when I called her she told me she was wearing them
<MasterGuny> so I asked her who gave her permission
<MasterGuny> when she said no one I told her not to remove them till I called back
<MasterGuny> so I did 20 minutes later
<MasterGuny> and told her to remove them and pull
<MasterGuny> could hear her all the way from washington
<MasterGuny> funny she did not want to do it a second time without permission
<drauma{MzTyger}> my first punishment was a bit creative
<drauma{MzTyger}> I was told I would have a certain number of sets of whacks to endure
<drauma{MzTyger}> but not how many constituted a set
<drauma{MzTyger}> various events postponed the punishment, so i was in suspense for several weeks finding that out
<Omy> Don't everyone speak at once
<drauma{MzTyger}> ultimately it was one whack per set, I suppose I had demonstrated a learning of the lesson...
<drauma{MzTyger}> so much of the cruelty we experience regularly is creative, how to distinguish?
<MasterGuny> From what I have seen there are more Domme's into it that General
<Omy> something that hasn't been done to you b4? Different circumstances
<Kilted_One> why would you say that MasterGuny??
<Kilted_One> do you think there is any reason for it
<Omy> Hmmm I like to think I'm creative
<MasterGuny> just an observation in the difference between the two
<drauma{MzTyger}> "go tot he store, buy some pink frilly panties, be sure to tell the sales girl WHY you want them..."
* Kilted_One has seen some pretty creative cruelty from both sexes
<MasterGuny> have seen it from both but more regularly from the Domme's
<drauma{MzTyger}> two years ago simply getting me into the intimates aisle of a store was hard
<drauma{MzTyger}> so, that would have been cruel, asking me to discuss things with a total stranger...
* Kilted_One thinks that drauma{MzTyger} may want to rephrase that <winks>
<drauma{MzTyger}> ?
<Kilted_One> ntimates aisle of a store was hard
<drauma{MzTyger}> perhaps you havent seen how large I am Sir
<drauma{MzTyger}> when I drag my feet, its a struggle
* Kilted_One smiles and thinks that drauma{MzTyger} hasnt quite got the "PUN" yet...hard as in erection!!
* drauma{MzTyger} delibnerately ignores the baaaaad pun
<MasterGuny> creativity in general impresses me when I see it... I usually store it away to try myself at another time
<drauma{MzTyger}> :-P~~~~~~~
<Kilted_One> so what would we class as creative cruelty??? is not all what we do creative to some degree and as it all gives pain in some fashion is it not all cruel???
<MasterGuny> to me it is something that stands out in my mind as different than what I have seen for years
<drauma{MzTyger}> a minor aside, somehow pain seems not quite the right term, I prefer stimulation to pain as a general concept
<Omy> I dunno...I wouldn't agree pain even has to be involved
<MasterGuny> ie blindfolded and made to kneel on rice
<Kilted_One> would that be steamed or fired MasterGuny <winks>
<Omy> being paddled until the last grain of sand falls through the hourglass
<Kilted_One> fired=fried
<drauma{MzTyger}> or, during a sensual 'guess what this is' session, the feel of cold steel, to me it can feel like wetness
<Omy> more creative..having the sub hold the hourglass
<foX^notinsoX> .oO(even more creative ... sub keeps turning the hourglass>
<MasterGuny> striking a match then touching with ice
<drauma{MzTyger}> all the mindfucks apply
<Kilted_One> so are we describing CC and something over and above the "normal run of the mill, we have seen a few times already"
<drauma{MzTyger}> 'guess a number between 1 and 100...I will stop paddling when you get it'
<drauma{MzTyger}> or, call the dice roll...
<MasterGuny> I know a Domme that uses a deck of card that has punishments listed on them that the sub actually wrote on them and when bad he picks one
<jewel`{F}> i would think that the creative part, at least for me, kicks in when someone has taken the time, used their imagination and done something unique
<Kilted_One> so how do we get these ideas?? and is ther things that we can do to help the creative process?
<drauma{MzTyger}> a fetish club here on LI has this wheel with punishments on it, and a contest...
<aymelek> even just waiting for the next strike can be considered creative cruelty i think if the pattern of the strokes is broken- its a mind fuck but it's also creative cruelty
<Omy> I think what we are doing now is a great method KO
<drauma{MzTyger}> brainstorming
* Kilted_One would agree with Omy that this is certainly one way, was wondering if there were other ideas out there too
<MasterGuny> I'll be honest I steal good ones I hear or see
<__Doc__> greets
<MasterGuny> then combine them to make them my own
<Omy> Tapping into our own imagination is another good one
<Kilted_One> does anyone know of a wp or chat or mailing list that covers this topic??
<foX^notinsoX> or thinking quick on One's feet
<drauma{MzTyger}> my high school chem teacher had an interesting way to grade the velence exam, we needed to score 95 or better to pass; could retake the exam as often as needed to acheive a pass - actual grade depended on how many retakes it took
<drauma{MzTyger}> valence
<Omy> haven't heard of one KO...but I'm sure it comes up as a topic on them
<Kilted_One> laughs as he did a search on Goggle and the second hit that I got was...................
<Kilted_One> May 20 2001 EhBC Online Discussion
<Kilted_One> ... Tonight's discussion topic is "Creative Cruelty". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. ... creative
<Kilted_One> cruelty. The fine art of causing pain, suffering, and passion. ...
<drauma{MzTyger}> said to a hubby in enforced chastity - "You will get fucked tonight dear, if..."
<drauma{MzTyger}> later that night, he gets fucked all right, but not the way he thought
<Kilted_One> guess this is not and original topic as we did it back in may 2001
* `abi notes that the third hit is a review of Shape of Things ...
<drauma{MzTyger}> ah, but are we the same we as we were then?
<Kilted_One> so is there mental exercises that one can do to put oneself in a state of mind that can enhance this type of thinking
<`abi> and agrees that a viewing of it is creative cruelty ... it sucked
* aymelek was only discovering this as a release in 2001
<aymelek> so can't have an opinion truly
<Kilted_One> I think we can all have opinions based on our experience and our desires and our persona
<drauma{MzTyger}> how does one encourage creativity of any kind? in music, for improv, one needs an understanding of the structures underlying the music being improved
<drauma{MzTyger}> that knowledge can be unconcious, but it must exist
* DarkAngel^ sits back to watch and learn ,,, as he is more of a soft sensual gentle Dom
* `abi notes that someone has stolen DA's nick again
* Omy bullshit meter goes off scale
<Kilted_One> could this be related to "Lateral thinking" and if so the act of thinking laterally creates a scenario that makes it easier and more natural to think along these lateral lines. Think the same could apply here
<DarkAngel^> shhhh this is being logged ,,, you two will give me a bad reputation
<__Doc__> eek
* Kilted_One gets ready to kick the DA Imposter as the one we know is not soft sensual or gentle
<`abi> creativity means thinking outside the box ... it's awfully easy to buy into 'expected' patterns of behaviour
<DarkAngel^> or doing things that ,,,, surprise the box
* aymelek has been told that seeing each other to often can "break the spell" and found out TOO recently that it can happen
* aymelek wonders how you keep the magic happening, what is the creative cruelty
<`abi> I think that the box can get comfortable after a while aymelek ... shaking it up takes a little more effort
<drauma{MzTyger}> yes, but from the submissives point of view, being whacked irregularly when some music presents a regular beat int he background, one might be surprised when it comes regularly instead of being broken...
<`abi> but it's certainly possible
<DarkAngel^> mind fucks are fun `abi
<aymelek> abi too comfortable
<MasterGuny> Im not a painter or writer and I don't find myself that creative..mind you I do have my moments but I learn techniques from here from reading talking to others...stories on bondage help..anywhere I can find info to make my own
* aymelek agrees with DA
<`abi> and I don't think that creativity requires 'big' gestures ... it can be the very small details which surprise the most .. which can be the most creative and the most cruel
<Omy> even contrasting sensations can work...a nice carress...and then whack! there's the paddle again
<DarkAngel^> I agree `abi ,,, going for big special things can be detrimental ,,, and after a while will run out ,,,, then where are you
<`abi> probably tied to a cross somewhere DA ;)
<DarkAngel^> not me `abi ,, I hide my victums
<aymelek> like i said earlier, waiting for the next what when the pattern is broken (i love floggers can Y/you tell?)
<drauma{MzTyger}> such as, tying the submissive with light yarn 'dont DARE break this'
* Omy reminds DA this chat is logged
<Kilted_One> we edit out all of the illegal bits though Omy
<DarkAngel^> one example ,,, of mind fuck cruelty ,,,, the last 4 or 6 cane strokes ,,,, making the botton call them out (4 Sir,,,,,, 3 Sir,,,) , and each one being harder than the next
* aymelek hates having to count
<Kilted_One> thinks DA may have meant harder that the "previous"
<DarkAngel^> the last one is SOOOoooooo anticipated ,,, I usually gently touch them once or twice ,,,, and make that one wait a longer than norm pause
<DarkAngel^> ya ,,, lol
<aymelek> DA is an ogre
<DarkAngel^> I resemble that
<aymelek> remarkably
<DarkAngel^> well ok ,,,lol
<drauma{MzTyger}> tho, always a Gentleman DA
<aymelek> hehehehehe
<aymelek> always?
* aymelek questions that
<drauma{MzTyger}> to me, to date, yes
<aymelek> ok
<DarkAngel^> how about using a rabit furr flogger ,,, really really hard (which creates a nasty sound ,, but not much ummmfff) ,, but after about 10 hard hits ,,, you touch the sub with a finger ,,,,, ZAAAaappppppp
<Kilted_One> abi can you give us some examples of lil guestures
<DarkAngel^> the soft play becomes electric play ,, *Evil Smile*
<krista-F> oh i love this.......the Dom's secrets revealed!!!!!!
<aymelek> DA sounds like a Master of Creative Cruelty\
<`abi> sure KO ... a pinch in an unexpected place, a voice where you least expect it, a toy that gets picked up and put down
<krista-F> enquiring minds want to know!!!!!!!! film at 11!!!!!!!!!!
<`abi> a spin in the opposite direction ;)
* DarkAngel^ turns away from krista-F ,,,, as he notices her lookingover his shoulder while he reads "Domination for Dummies"
<drauma{MzTyger}> fromout of the blue, "Go AWAY, NOW..."
* Kilted_One laughs at that one
* DebUTaunt thinks what I saw last nite wasn't no dummie
* Omy scowls at DA 14 I want my book back at January DAL
<`abi> any pattern that gets broken
<krista-F> too advanced for this girl DA Sir
<DebUTaunt> apologies for arriving late -- are we talking physical cruelty or mental?
<DebUTaunt> or both?
<Kilted_One> either DebUTaunt
<DarkAngel^> yes DebUTaunt
<`abi> either/or ... bonus points for both
* drauma{MzTyger} notes the rhetorical form of DA's answer...
<DebUTaunt> and defining cruelty as a desirable thing or a hurtful thing?
<Kilted_One> as you wish
* aymelek is going to call it a night - notes her last Master should have been here, He was very good
<DarkAngel^> what is hurting is desierable ? ... so answer is ,,, yes
<DebUTaunt> when it betrays the emotions, it can be destructive
<DebUTaunt> when it plays to a fantasy self it can be enhancing
* aymelek waves to A/all
<Omy> sometimes betraying the emotion is the fantasy
<DebUTaunt> you think?
<DarkAngel^> well DebUTaunt ,, let us just refer to the ,,,, constructive ones
<DebUTaunt> ie if I may...
<Kilted_One> there maybe room in both scenario's for both effects so maybe there is more to it that what emotion it is played to DebUTaunt??
<DebUTaunt> if I have a sub who wants (negotiated secretly)
<DebUTaunt> to be scorned, abused, hurt, abandoned, etc...
<DebUTaunt> and I fulfill that in a creative way, he is thrilled
<DebUTaunt> fulfilled
<DebUTaunt> however, if in some other context, I trod on his feelings, or in some way trivialize him, he is devastated
<DebUTaunt> which would he call cruel?
<`abi> likely both
<Kilted_One> one positive and one negative but both desired and one not
<MasterGuny> but one was unintentional the other creative
<DebUTaunt> one would hope unintentional... yes <smile>
<aurelle> hi all
<DebUTaunt> I would say in years gone by I enjoyed cruelty for the sake of "art"...
<Kilted_One> sure?? are you not confusing the outcome with the both cases the action would be intensional the outcome is not
<DebUTaunt> but I've become more aware in the recent past of real life costs
<Kilted_One> throws a
<`abi> but DebUTaunt ... real 'art' creates, it doesn't destroy .. isn't that the difference?
<Kilted_One> "t" up there and steals the "s"
<drauma{MzTyger}> soemtimes there is art in destruction
<DebUTaunt> I'm reflecting on certain scenes I realize I did for my own edification than anything else
<DarkAngel^> can we hear examples of such cruelty ? ... that we might incorporate in our own play ?
<DebUTaunt> I might do them differently now in the same circumstances
<DebUTaunt> 99% of the ideas stem from denial I think
<drauma{MzTyger}> the creful placement of explosives, bringing a buidling down withiun its own perimeter for example
<DebUTaunt> create the anticipation of that which is craved, promise it... then withhold it
<Kilted_One> you may have to do them differently with different individuals too DebUTaunt??
<DebUTaunt> true KO... thinking as I'm typing here... perhaps I should ponder more before I submit <g>
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
* Kilted_One takes a mental note to search drauma{MzTyger} at every event
<drauma{MzTyger}> mmm, combining wax play with padling, placing wax on the submissive in a pattern, then paddling to make a picture...
<drauma{MzTyger}> best ask MzTyger first KO
* Kilted_One smiles
<Kilted_One> takes a note to change the rules to ban explosives too
<drauma{MzTyger}> as to creative destructino, consider Harpo Marx et al
<drauma{MzTyger}> piano -> harp
<DarkAngel^> I like to be cruel ,,, in ways that pushes the limits during exploration and play ,,, still safe ,, still in control ,, but IMO ,, it can bring a bottom deeper into sub space when they feel such control
<Kilted_One> I like the examples that abigaille gave...little but effective
<Kilted_One> <`abi> sure KO ... a pinch in an unexpected place, a voice where you least expect it, a toy that gets picked up and put down
<Omy> creation of the anticipation as DebUTaunt mentioned I think is a very good method.
<drauma{MzTyger}> a toy that is draped on the submissive unexpectedly
<DarkAngel^> I also like that one ,,,,,,,, that is why I make a habit of holding 2 different canes at all times when doing cane play
* aurelle shivers
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Kilted_One> turn the heat on lass??