November 28 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

* Kilted_One says that the following msg will great ppl as they join the
channel..... "Welcome to #bdsm-kw. Tonight's discussion is "Being Single
and Submissive in a Healthy Manner" and is moderated by KarenD. We ask
that all greetings be kept to a minimum or sent privately during this
time."
<KarenD> Thanks, KO :)
<Woodbine> moderated by KarenD?
<Woodbine> what an honour Karen...
<Traeger> Night everyone....gonna go look for a date.
<Woodbine> lol!
<KarenD> Good evening, and welcome to the discussion.
<Woodbine> there must be some mail order date sites now, eh?
<KarenD> A word of warning, the discussion is being logged to be posted
on the EhBC website
<Woodbine> lol...
<TheWolfe> good evening
<KarenD> so if you want to say something in the discussion and don't
want your name to appear there, please change your nick now.
<KarenD> Now, the topic....as I suggested in the announcement there were
two articles on the web that might be good background reading
<KarenD> one of them is called "Submissive Frenzies'
<fluxie[F]> May I ask a starting question?
<KarenD> the author says basically that submissives can have this
tendancy to feel so urgent about finding someone to allow all their
submissive dreams and fantasies to come out with that they often jump
into relationships too quickly
<KarenD> sure fluxie
<fluxie[F]> what do people here define as single for a sub (vs single
for a Dom(me)?
<fluxie[F]> or vanilla, jfor that matter
<KarenD> I believe that single means essentially that....without a
partner
<fluxie[F]> without a permanent, or long term, or both?
* Kilted_One wonders what the other submissives think it means???
<KarenD> without a partner, period.
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with Karen
<fluxie[F]> oh, ok....I dont really subscribe to that definition then
<KarenD> the author of this article suggests that this need to submit
can be so strong that to some extent, it influences one's
judgement....for safety, for compatibility...
<Kilted_One> is that your definition though fluxie[F]?
<shadodancer> imo...it is a person not in a long term relationship
<sweetslave{AF}> i think the author is probably correct in that
statement
<fluxie[F]> well, I believe I can have partner(s) (either (in)frequent,
permanent, long or short term) and still be single if the expectations
are not directed at a "primary partnership" in any hierarchical sense
<KarenD> I'm not sure we need to argue over definitions here....whatever
single means to us, we can still apply the question...does the need to
submit influence one's judgement?
* BernieRoehl likes fluxie's definition
<fluxie[F]> single or not seems to me to be about expectations more
often than not
(poison_ivy@216-164-132-118.s372.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com) has
joined #bdsm-kw
<KarenD> you have a good point there, fluxie
<fluxie[F]> sorry, but I think it affects the discussion as well, so
just wanted to table the question
<fluxie[F]> thanks
<KarenD> is it submission or bottoming though, if you are going through
multiple short term partners?
* Kilted_One thinks that it is important to understand ppls definition
of "single" before you can understand what they understand as being
healthy
<TheWolfe> oh oh...more definitions
<KarenD> what does 'being healthy' mean to each of us?
<KarenD> for me, it's not jumping into bad situations while looking for
the right one
<fluxie[F]> not screwing up my head, my body, or my life any longer than
a pre-defined scene allots for in my view
<KarenD> and learning to like my life as a single person....
<concubinary> not having regrets afterwards
<KarenD> but you'd be willing to screw up your head for the duration of
a scene?
<Kilted_One> what do ppl think a good situ or a bad situ is??...I
wouldnt be suprised to hear several completely differnt understandings
of them
* KarenD nods to concubinary 'I think that's important'
<fluxie[F]> I think there is a lot to be said for being a single
sub...and worry about the "desperate single subbie" stereotypes
<shadodancer> think that's part of the problem...the image that if you
are single you must be desparate
* fluxie[F] screws up her head regularily for every scene she does...but
that has nothing to do with being single or not :)
<concubinary> it also means REALLY being honest with myself about my
expectations before i play. Not kidding myself just to satisfy
needs/lust etc
<sweetslave{AF}> a bad situation for me would be one that is emotionally
devastating...settling for less than you would normally allow in order
to satisfy immediate needs
* KarenD nods 'that's what I mean by learning to like one's life as a
single person, to _not_ give out that image of 'desperate'
<fluxie[F]> yes, I was far more desperate in vanilla than in bdsm, as
bdsm seems to allow a lot more levels of lifestyle without _too_many_
preconceptions
* Kilted_One thinks that it must be diffecult to be objective though
being in that position of "single"
<fluxie[F]> a bad situation for me, is one that weakens me
<fluxie[F]> how so KO?
<SkyDom> wow! Hi, all!
<lil^bear^> single means desperate?? where do you ppl live at?
<KarenD> What would you all suggest as ways to manage being single and
submissive? Having all those needs and not having a means to satisfy
them?
joined #bdsm-kw
<shadodancer> no lil^bear^.....the perception that it means that
<SiRmac{v}> like you manage single and vanilla.....what's the diff?
<fluxie[F]> welll, remembering that a bad partner is worse than no
partner, and having no partner by choice is a good thing...are a few
things I do
<KarenD> lil^bear, I think the idea is that we're trying to dispell that
image...
<Indiana^Jones> welcome back
<lil^bear^> whose perception? first time bear has heard of it
<sweetslave{AF}> perhaps continuing contact with those of like mind
while continuing the journey of learning about oneself
<Kilted_One> well how many have watched a scene and thought that it went
too far and that the submissive was allowing it to go to far cause
she/he was single ...and then tell me how many have been in that
position and just been having a good  time when it was available was
your thought
<KarenD> SirMac, the difference is the need to submit....particularily
if you have had some experience of submission and know.....just how good
it can feel
<fluxie[F]> but single and celibate dont necessarily go together
left #bdsm-kw
<KarenD> SkyDom, this is the formal weekly discussion, it lasts til 10pm
each sunday night
<SiRmac{v}> are there not parallels in being single and deciding to have
sex?
<SiRmac{v}> in vanilla I mean
<fluxie[F]> or submitting....but I still think that they are three
different things
<KarenD> perhaps....but that is yet another challenge for the single
submissive...
<KarenD> sex and submitting are different things, and the point of the
discussion is not how vanillas handle it, but how submissives handle
it...
<SiRmac{v}> playing to me is another level of intimacy
* fluxie[F] thinks of an analogy between being "Owned" and being
"Leased"...I dunno, I just prefer to hold my own registration
<KarenD> that's a good way of looking at it fluxie...
* fluxie[F] still thinks it is easier to be single in bdsm society than
vanilla though
<SiRmac{v}> everyone will handle it differently.... a search in your own
way to find that Partner.
<KarenD> so I take it that you do play casually then..."leasing"
yourself out for the night
<SiRmac{v}> I like that fluxie
<TheWolfe> Does anyone think it might be easier for "single subs" who
have vanilla partners?
<lil^bear^> casual play?
<fluxie[F]> that makes it sound very untrivial, I prefer tho think that
I may gift myself on my schedule to people I think are right and then go
back to my own life
<KarenD> that's an interesting question, TheWolfe....
<concubinary> maybe, they could have intimacy with their vanilla
partners, only seek the erotic parts of bdsm
<SiRmac{v}> but then you are not single in my view TheWolfe
<TheWolfe> no I'm not *smile*...just a question to further the
discussion
* KarenD smiles 'the other article that I mentioned in the announcement
was written by Jade, at CastleRealm, and talks about some proactive
suggestions for bettering one's submission while waiting for that
Mr./Ms. Right Dom/me to come along
* fluxie[F] agrees with SirMac....there is this whole "third level" in
BDSM that just doesnt seem to translate in vanilla...BDSM for BDSM
without the social expectations of the norm...
<SiRmac{v}> no TheWolfe, I was speaking in general *smile*
<TheWolfe> ;)
<TheWolfe> in the royal sense
* canplay admired jade greatly
<SkyDom> roger, K
<KarenD> Jade suggests a personal inventory, really getting to know
oneself, and hightlighting one's talents and getting better where one
isn't so strong...
<LrdThomas> it occurs to me, that to "better" ones submission while
single, is to grow and strengthen oneself as individuals.
<Kilted_One> I went to the site and mho was that what she said could be
said about any vanilla relationship too
<TheWolfe> agreed
<BernieRoehl> I think that's excellent advice, KarenD
* BernieRoehl agrees with KO
<TheWolfe> for everyone
* fluxie[F] worries that anybody would _stop_ bettering themselves...it
ain't a race, It doesnt end :)
<sweetslave{AF}> isn't that what we all strive for on a personal
level...yet look for one who can help along the journey?
<canplay> knows that jade suggested things such as fitness sessions,
hobbies, take a course to better ones person.. i liked her idea on
taking creative writting course
* KarenD smiles 'I agree to some extent.....but are there not ways we
can better ourselves as submissives, and indeed, as Doms?
<TheWolfe> yes there are
* KarenD nods to canplay 'and massage....and anything to increase one's
physical grace...
<Stephen_R> Is not "better", in this context, subjective?
<Kilted_One> her section on personal grace for example....how many have
been totally turned off by a person's mannerisms without even talking to
the person??
* fluxie[F] can think of a lifetime's number of things
<KarenD> what do you mean, Stephen?
<concubinary> i agree with you Kilted_One but it all depends...Some
Dominants want a graceful submissive, others want a raunchy slut
<Stephen_R> "better" is a reflection of values, which are, to a degree,
personal
<concubinary> as submissives wish to project themselves in different
ways
<KarenD> well, I think that's her point, Stephen....with the first part,
taking a personal inventory..
<Kilted_One> agreed concubinary...but how many want one that picks their
nose?? ya know?
<KarenD> highlight one's individual strengths and flaws and better
those....customize to the individual seeking 'betterment'
<Stephen_R> the quandery, is to better in one's own mind, or in the mind
of the future dom?
<TheWolfe> in ones OWN mind
<concubinary> Kilted_One, you never know! But really you got my point?
* Kilted_One nods..sa
<Stephen_R> TW, you knew the answer :)
<fluxie[F]> I would think packaging yourself for an unconfirmed market
is dangerous
<Kilted_One> as I think you got mine :)
<concubinary> first of all my mind Stephen_R, then i will attract the
right Dominant
<KarenD> one's own mind....and that will draw the Dom that is best for
that individual
<TheWolfe> be yourself not what someone else wants you to be
<TheWolfe> if you are to remain healthy
<Woodbine> to offer more emotionally than one is capable of giving... 
one must be modest...
* KarenD smiles 'yes, TheWolfe...exactly'
<concubinary> yes i did Kilted_One
<TheWolfe> so we're done? j/k
<Kilted_One> I think the question is what can be done to polish
yourself, not change yourself, to make you more attractive to the person
you are trying to find...same applies in vanilla life
<Stephen_R> Now a question... what if one wants to submit....
* KarenD laughs 'nope, we still have a half-hour...I'm wondering...what
might each here do to better themselves?
<fluxie[F]> mind you, that becomes difficult in the face of "good sub "
and "bad sub" reinforcements ;)
<SiRmac{v}> the real concern for a single sub is that before you submit
you had better have some level of trust in that Dom.
<lil^bear^> bath would be a good thing
<Stephen_R> and wants the means of that submission to be defined by the
future dom?
<KarenD> yes, fluxie....and how to better ourselves when we are faced
daily with 'good' sub and 'bad' sub definitions?
* Kilted_One nods to lil^bear^...exacly personal hygiene
<concubinary> for me it's always that way Stephen_R but if i am true to
myself then i will attract and want to be with Dominants that are
compatible
<fluxie[F]> yes KarenD...exactly
<KarenD> how to maintain a healthy personal image....
<wildcat{WT}> permission to enter please?
* fluxie[F] is bettering herself by thinking about whether I agree with
any Good sub/Bad sub stuff I come across, in any media
<Lotta_Skull> no need too ask wildcat...
<wildcat{WT}> oh sorry force of habit lol
<concubinary> good sub/bad sub is stupid! Everyone has such different
views on bdsm
<wildcat{WT}> thank you 
* Johncin thinks you should just be your true self!
<KarenD> what _are_ ourselves?
<fluxie[F]> but it would be foolish to think that it aint out there,
just as going for any Dom is foolish
<Lotta_Skull> personally I would spend time learning more about human
physcology given the time too better Myself ...
<KarenD> is it not easier to read something and think 'gee, that sounds
like fun' without really thinking about whether it's actually good for
us or not?
<SirDirk> What are we discussing?
<lil^bear^> ya know sometimes the mentality on here kills me what is
this good sub bad sub or this desperate cause we single, man cant you
all be just like yourself..who you are..and like who you are and screw
everyone else that doesnt..their heads turn both ways..if your a sub and
single be proud of it..your strong capable able there is no bad sub or
good sub..and is ya  a sub that is with someone then accept them for who
they are..love them and grow with them,
<lil^bear^> its you that counts..whats inside
<sweetslave{AF}> life is always easier from an armchair
<concubinary> fluxie, it's out there but it's ridiculous. Bdsm
relationships are so varied from only bedroom to complete slavery with
no safe words etc. How can anyone claim to judge good or bad further
than their own interpretation and have any credibility
<KarenD> SirDirk, the discussion topic was in the greeting message when
you entered
ERROR| mIRC/NE><GEN Unknown Command "METHINKS" 
 The command sent is unknown by the server and NEXGEN.
<fluxie[F]> it is definately easier to not think of consequences :)
* Kilted_One thinks that Dirk should read the personal post that he got
when he entered
<GODDESSCAT> SORRY :) 
<GODDESSCAT>  bye A/all
<fluxie[F]> one really good thing about being a single sub...is that I
have the luxury of changing at my own speed...without worrying about
whether it will impinge on an existing relationship.
* Kilted_One smiles at the determination and frustration in lil^bear^'s
words
<KarenD> what I've noticed, in the community, online and off, is that
there are a lot of submissives who don't really know who they are in the
first place, let alone how to better themselves
<fluxie[F]> and BDSM seems to cause rapid growth, at least for me
<LrdThomas> agreed karen.
<SiRmac{v}> what do you mean KarenD, can you clarify?
<Kilted_One> isnt that what life is for KarenD? searching for who you
are and what you like/want?
<SiRmac{v}> agreed KO
* fluxie[F] agrees with Karen, but that is for partnered as well as
single
<KarenD> there seems to be a lot of submissives who go along with
whatever a Dom wants without defining themselves.
<TheWolfe> oh?
<Kilted_One> isnt that what submission is about though?
<Lotta_Skull> most definately Karen people often seem too miss
understanding themselves first and jump right into the fire ...
<SiRmac{v}> maybe they are experimenting KarenD
<fluxie[F]> I think the "whatever: is the issue, not the going along
<sweetslave{AF}> how can one commit to another in any capacity if they
do not know who they are?
<Stephen_R> I am having trouble "better yourself" in the context of
finding a partner. Learning new life skills is great, but not in
context.
<SirDirk> Without arguing the point either way, I've found, and chatted
to alot of sub's online and off, who don't themselves want to decide
where they go or how their to change. There are those subs out there
that NEED or WANT someone to take them in whatever direction they should
choose
<fluxie[F]> without knowing what your limits are...how can "whatever" be
safe?
<Kilted_One> that is what a safe word is for is it not?
<KarenD> and if you don't know yourself, how can you offer it to someone
in submission?
<fluxie[F]> so a single sub doesnt have that sort of focus upon them, no
outside controller
<Lotta_Skull> in that case SirDirk ...that is who they want too be ...
<SiRmac{v}> is that what you mean KarenD..... a well defined set of
limits?
<sweetslave{AF}> very true Karen
<LrdThomas> SD, those seeking that kind of leadership become dependent
imho.
<fluxie[F]> if you dont know your limits...how can you apply your
safeword
<chaosbitch> I do not think that BDSM is something that is for people
who do not have a good sense of themselves already...we can grow...but
we should already be established.
<TheWolfe> when it becomes uncomfortable!!!
<Stephen_R> Important, I believe, is learning to express what *you*
want. Aggresively. Truthfuly. And to be trusting and vulnerable.
<KarenD> not necessarily, SirMac, but limits are indeed part of it...
* fluxie[F] agrees with chaosbitch
<SirDirk> Those seeking that type of leadership WANT to become dependant
in my eyes. And if that's what they themselves long for..then so be it.
To each their own. There is no governing commitee on what's right for
each person and what's wrong for them in this lifestyle. It's an
individual case by case scenario
<Kilted_One> fluxie have you wver used your safeword??
next week, my schedule is booked. Thank you lil^bear)
* KarenD nods to Stephen 'but one can't express what they don't
know....'
<SiRmac{v}> are limits more important when you are a single sub.
especially if you play casually?
ERROR| No Such Nick/Channel "wigglytoes" 
 Nickname/Channel is currently unused.
ERROR| No Such Nick/Channel "wigglytoes" 
 Nickname/Channel is currently unused.
ERROR| No Such Nick/Channel "wigglytoes" 
 Nickname/Channel is currently unused.
<fluxie[F]> yes KO, often, in fact...and being single, perhaps more
often than others
<SirDirk> I would have to say yes, they most definately are Sirmac
<Stephen_R> saying "I don't know" is a beautiful start
<Kilted_One> then how did you know when to use it? fluxie?
<{autumn}_U_> i think the limits are equally important SiRmac....maybe
just necessary to more clear about them....
<KarenD> I have spent much time in flux, trying to figure out who I am,
and what I have to offer.....and I have made mistakes along the way, but
that is part of the learning process.../
<fluxie[F]> I entirely agree, and communicating them ahead of any play
is important
<Lotta_Skull> just because they want someone too take control does not
mean they dont know themselves or limits ...
<TheWolfe> limits change but are always there
<SiRmac{v}> agreed autumn.
* {autumn}_U_ nods
* SirDirk agrees with TW
<chaosbitch> I agree TW
<KarenD> I don't think a Dom should take control, and make a sub
dependant....I believe a healthy D/s relationship _enhances_ both
lives...
<fluxie[F]> KO, I know when things go beyond the beyound for me, like
most...I may use it more though as I dont have a frequent L/T partner
and they may not know exactly what I mean
<KarenD> not subsume one of those lives...
<SiRmac{v}> definitely KarenD.. I agree
<SirDirk> I agree with you for my OWN personal relatoinships Karen. But
I don't agree that that what you or I consider healthy applies to
everyone and every relationship
* wigglytoes kicks the stupid computer
<KarenD> okay, so....to head towards a summary....
<chaosbitch> How can a Dom/me make a subdependant?  Wouldn't that be a
choice of the submissive's to give up his or her independence?
<KarenD> how about a round table....knowing yourself is important, yes?
<SiRmac{v}> I think you can generalize that we all want enhancement
SirDirk.... just in varied ways.
* sweetslave{AF} nods
<fluxie[F]> bery important 
* Kilted_One smiles and says that fluxie uses her safe word to set the
limits not the otherway around hence limits can be changed during any
scene...they way a safeword is meant to work and be applied
<fluxie[F]> very
<{autumn}_U_> good point chaos.....people can't "make" other people do
anything....
<SirDirk> Knowing yourself is extremely important, but not always
possible at that point and time in your life.
* fluxie[F] will talk another time about that KO :)
<KarenD> so....*g* assuming you are all well known to yourselves....what
one thing might you do to better yourself at this one point in your
life?
<{autumn}_U_> how much time do i have Karen?....lol
<{autumn}_U_> thats a list that always grows and changes as i grow and
change
<TheWolfe> educate yourself. keep learning
<lil^bear^^> go to school..get more education..so you can support
yourself...be independent..
<chaosbitch> I agree autumn :)
<SiRmac{v}> learn
<chaosbitch> TW as well..
<SirDirk> I think the best way that i can/could better myself is to not
assume i know what's right or wrong for anyone other then myself and
someone I control in life.
* fluxie[F] writes a journal, with a lot of bdsm life in it...it really
helps
* chaosbitch grins at SirDirk
<SiRmac{v}> communicate 
<Kilted_One> does anyone else feel that ppl cant be made to do
anything??
<{autumn}_U_> journals are fantastic for that fluxie.....*smile*
<{autumn}_U_> not without the choice KO....
<TheWolfe> made todo anything, yes
<sweetslave{AF}> for me it is to trust myself to know the answers...as i
do if only i take the time to listen
<KarenD> education, journal-keeping, be independant,
communicate....great suggestions :)
<TheWolfe> violence works wonders
<SiRmac{v}> a gun at my head works
<TheWolfe> anyone can control another with violence
<chaosbitch> sweetslave...i agree..i also need to know that mistakes are
okay too *grin*
* KarenD blinks at TheWolfe 'excuse me?'
<SirDirk> Not true.
<SirDirk> i couldn't control anyone using non-consentual violence.
<{autumn}_U_> whats not true Dirk?
<TheWolfe> responding to KO
<canplay> thinks some mean can not be made to submit with ones heart and
soul
<{autumn}_U_> yes but with violence doesnt that throw the "healthy
manner" thing out the window?
<SirDirk> I.E. meaning that because I'm a human or a Dom, does not mean
I personally could stomach forcing someone to go against their limits or
against their own will or morality.
<sweetslave{AF}> of course we need to learn from mistakes as they are
lessons meant specifically to us
* canplay agrees with Sir Dirk
<TheWolfe>  <Kilted_One> does anyone else feel that ppl cant be made to
do anything??
* {autumn}_U_ nods
<KarenD> voilence is not healthy, please pull this discussion back on
track
* fluxie[F] still thinks being single in bdsm is easier than
vanilla...;) more mid-zones are understood :)
<SirDirk> I thought you just wrapped the discussion up.
<canplay> i feel usuing consentual methods ..One can't make one to do
anything she does not allow
<SiRmac{v}> I think they can KO but where is the relevence
<TheWolfe> just responding to a question
<KarenD> no, it's not over yet...
<SirDirk> awkies.
* SirDirk nods and sits back
* chaosbitch chuckles
<{autumn}_U_> lol
* SkyDom chortles
<Kilted_One> <{autumn}_U_> good point chaos.....people can't "make"
other people do anything....
* SiRmac{v} puts his gun away
<Kilted_One> I was still asking about that post
<{autumn}_U_> its still about choice
<chaosbitch> Sorry, what did you want to know KO
<TheWolfe> thx Sirmac
<KarenD> but it does seem the room is ending it....shrugs 'five minutes
less won't kill us :)'
<TheWolfe> we're still talking
* fluxie[F] would love to continue the discussion, perhaps in an
informal way, allowing for digressions ;)
<Kilted_One> it was {autumn}_U_'s post...wondered what she meant
<KarenD> Okay then, thank you for participating....feel free to keep on
talking but the log is ending now
<sweetslave{AF}> great job Karen!
<SirDirk> Thanks for the discussion Karen
<KarenD> thanks fluxie :)
<SiRmac{v}> thnks KarenD!