November 25, 2001 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our regular Sunday night discussion
<yummy> hey Symmetre, fancy meeting you here
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic channel message that reads as follows...
<Symmetre> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Hello all the new arrivals. Sheesh. Heaven forbid I should look away from the screen for a sec and fall behind! :)
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Finding a Safe, Sane and Willing Partner". The moderator tonight is BernieRoehl. Enjoy the discussion!
<SkyDom> Thanks, yummy.
<BernieRoehl> So... who here has managed to find partners in the BDSM world, and how did you go about it?
<Symmetre> one word ..... internet
<niceguybh> well I guess I did some time ago... through a mutual friend
<yummy> play partners i ask by asking friends and folks i know to play......haven't met that right Dom for me yet though
<Specious1> easiest way is to marry one Bernie. Worked for me! LOL
<suzq{CK}> I did...married him
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> Let's go through those approaches in order...
<BernieRoehl> So, Symmetre -- the internet has worked well for you?
<niceguybh> that must be fantastic to be able to share this with a life partner like that Specious and Suz
<Symmetre> it's difficult enough to meet someone in the vanilla world ... when you add in the extra criteria associated with different bdsm interests ... it's pretty tough to approach people in the real world
<suzq{CK}> yes it is niceguybh
<Specious1> ya its great niceguy
<Symmetre> hence ... my interest in the internet as a tool to find a partner
<niceguybh> :-)
<dalian> it is difficult to mmet that one special Dom...but I don't give up
<BernieRoehl> Do you use chatrooms, or other systems Symmetre?
<Symmetre> tough to approach a woman in a bar and ask her if she likes to be caned .... at least not without getting punched in the mouth
<yummy> i find munches and play parties/fets better places to meet people than the interent....i seem to meet folks from far off parts on the net
<Symmetre> no on the chat rooms ... mainly ads ... alt, bondage.,com etc
<niceguybh> well it's not easy on the other side either... being a sub male
* BernieRoehl nods
<niceguybh> have you had much luck with ads Sym?
<`Beldin> hi all
<`Beldin> Hi abi:)
<BernieRoehl> You mentioned mutual friends, niceguybh -- are these people in the scene, or do you tell vanilla friends what you're looking for? [abigaille:#BDSM-kw PING]
<Symmetre> I've met a couple of women through ads, niceguybh .... but not "the one" yet
<niceguybh> in the scene... and that was through the internet as well Bernie
* BernieRoehl nods
<BernieRoehl> And yummy, you find munches are a good way to meet people
<niceguybh> I was very lucky... my first contact was a beautiful match... that lasted a year and a half
<yummy> yeah i do Bernie, met most of the folks i know (you included) at munches.....
<yummy> i like you can just hang out, chat, get to know people, no pressure
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement
<yummy> through a munch i got an invite to go to a play party and got more involved in the scene
<Specious1> I find that irc is good for that too yummy
<BernieRoehl> Yes, the munches are a nice relaxed way to get to know people
<Symmetre> I would prefer to meet people at munches ... but I find the internet is just such a bigger pool ... I think there's a better chance of finding the person you want ... especially in you have very specific interests
<yummy> carefully negotiated no play at said party and then asked if the Dom would play with me
<Specious1> meet people talk and if you get uncomfortable just click the x button
<BernieRoehl> So with the internet you're more likely to find a match, but they're also more likely to live really far away -- casting the net wider has it's trade-offs
<yummy> i do meet some through the net, but try to encourage them to come out to a munch and meet them there rather than on my own, less pressure, built in safety
<dalian> I don't know...I find the munches better for meeting people...I get very tired of being msg'd in chat rooms with "gotta pic" as an opening conversation
<niceguybh> that's a good idea yummy
<Symmetre> the distance can be a huge problem, admittedly. I met a wonderful submissive woman last year ... who regrettably, lives in rural Colorado
<Specious1> just kidding dalian!
<yummy> works for me niceguybh, don't have to worry if i am stood up
<Symmetre> that's kinda far to go for a drink
* BernieRoehl smiles
<dalian> although as far as the internet goes...I have been fortunate to have a mentor that I've known for four years
<BernieRoehl> Yes, rural Colorado is a long way to go
<Specious1> I find places like this are good though. Most people who come into a room that has a geographic area in the name are from around there
<BernieRoehl> That's one reason why we have the location in the name of the channel, though we still get people from all over the world dropping by occasionally
<BernieRoehl> Now, so far we've talked about the "meeting people" part of the topic. What about the safe/sane part? How do we evaluate whether someone is safe to play with?
<dalian> hopefully they would have some past history which can be verified
<SkyDom> I always pick women who are smaller than I am.
<`abi> it helps if they aren't accompanied by a police officer when you meet them
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<suzq{CK}> hehehe SkyDom
<Specious1> good advice SkyDom! LOL
<BernieRoehl> If they show up wearing an orange prison jumpsuit, that's one warning sign :-)
<niceguybh> I pick women bigger than me Sky... LOL
<yummy> you don't like bbw's SkyDom?
<SkyDom> Smile
<yummy> yeah or they are wearing cuffs chained together and "forgot the key"
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Achilles{tr}> Safety and sanity are things which are relevant to varying degrees depending on varying levels of involvement. A casual meeting at a fet event has more built-in safeguards than a private session in His basement. There need to be varying levels of confidence from both sides. Do those levels not grow with repeated experiences shared?
<niceguybh> that prison role play might be fun Bernie... LOL
<choochoomanz> hello all
* BernieRoehl agrees with Achilles about fet events being safer than private meetings
<yummy> i think so Achilles{tr}, i prefer to do my meeting and initla playing with folks who are new to me at munches or play parties
<choochoomanz> like me
<yummy> built in safety nets for me.....
<Specious1> Thats probably a smart thing yummy. The down side of this lifestyle is that it does attract a dangerous crowd at times
<Achilles{tr}> <---dangerous
* BernieRoehl smiles
<yummy> some Doms refuse to play in public cause they need to be "discrete" but that is often another word for "will be killed if the wife catches me"
<choochoomanz> m 25 sub brantford
<BernieRoehl> <--- charming and generally harmless :-)
<yummy> i have met wonderful folks Specious1, guess i am lukcy that way
* que`sarah chuckles under her breath
* `abi smiles
* yummy look at Bernie......yeah yeah yeah, and an evil mind and a strong flogger arm
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<BernieRoehl> So checking people's references is one way to evaluate whether they're safe to play with
<BernieRoehl> What other ways are there?
<yummy> i talk to them and play 200 questions
<niceguybh> I think references are dangerous to put too much weight on, from my experience
<Symmetre> you talk with them over a long period of time and ask tough questions
<yummy> i figure if they aren't open and honest to questions forget it
<yummy> and i see who else they know, and make sure i listen with my head and not my "hormones"
<que`sarah> Indeed, one can get to know them as a person first, and progress to play later.
<yummy> if my little voice in my head pops up with any concerns it is a an autaomactic "no thank you"
<Symmetre> I just can't get into playing with someone I've just met .... there's zero connection for me ... so it's really a moot point
<Symmetre> by the time I know them well enough to play .... any concerns have been addressed
<niceguybh> I think that's important yummy, to not ignore that inner voice
<yummy> i have played with those who i don't know well a few times, if i am introduced to them by folks i know well
<Achilles{tr}> I've met people in this lifestyle in numerous ways. My two greatest successes have been opening up a long-time vanilla friend to the life as W/we both grew to know it together and, more recently, metting someone special in the community who has proven to be very in tune with Me and I with her <points to abi>. Each has had its ups and downs. Other attempts to match with folks have been less successful. It's always a bit of a gamble.
<yummy> but there are then friends nearby watching out for me (and DMs)
<BernieRoehl> That's a point that was raised earlier -- that one approach to finding a partner is to take someone who's vanilla and introduce them to the scene
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone else here had experience doing that?
<niceguybh> trying to experience that now... we'll see... EG
<yummy> sorry no, i haven't
<Symmetre> I can't imagine doing that
<Achilles{tr}> Well, in My case, it was more a pair of Lovers deciding to explore this together and finding it very compatible for them. It has since evolved a great deal. 8 years and counting.
<`abi> I think it only works if a few factors are present ... a mutual interest in at least exploring BDSM as a starter ... I think it's difficult to drag someone kicking and screaming (in a bad way) to the lifestyle
<Achilles{tr}> I've heard of others doing something similar and it costing them the relationship.
<niceguybh> I have tried to get my wife more involved... but you are right... it's not possible to push someone who doesn't have the desire
* BernieRoehl nods
<Achilles{tr}> Like so many things in the lifestyle... it will vary what works for different people and what it is they are looking to achieve. I went through a casual play at events phase and have moved beyond that for now. Perhaps it will be of interest to Me again in the future... perhaps not. We evolve and change... find new needs and new venues to fuflill them.
<Symmetre> I would always wonder if the other person was really enjoying themself or just doing it to keep me happy .... and I'd never enjoy that
<BernieRoehl> The topic of casual play came up on the EhBC mailing list a short while ago. How do people here feel about it?
<Achilles{tr}> What you want will affect how you achieve it and what you need from a partner. The more you need, the more difficult and time consuming it is to find the 'right' person.
<niceguybh> I would like to know the definition of "casual" play
<niceguybh> not with a permanent partner?
<`abi> I think casual play fulfills one kind of need ... for some people it's the only lifestyle related need they have ... for others it doesn't even factor in as an interest
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I think that's the intent of it niceguybh -- playing with someone who is not a long-term permanent partner
<choochoomanz> anyone ever experience a forcedfeminization durring play?
<niceguybh> LOL, now there's a change of pace
* `abi checks out left-field
<niceguybh> maybe that's next week choochoo
* BernieRoehl notices that left-field has a surprising number of cross-dressers :-)
<`abi> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Yes choochoomanz... I was once possessed by the spirit of Charo in the midst of a scene. I did a brief cha-cha and then regained control. It was just a moment but it was intense.
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`abi> so much for my keyboard
<`abi> coffee splutters are so bad
<choochoomanz> wow
<Specious1> MAN! now theres a spirit to be possessed by! LOL
<BernieRoehl> Actually, feminization (forced or otherwise) is on the topic list
<BernieRoehl> Won't be until the new year, though
<Achilles{tr}> But that IS an important point... finding someone who has similar interests to your own to scene with is as important as deciding if they are sane enuff to scene with. Great.. they are sane. But do they share your interests. A good place to insert those 20 questions to decide what you wanna do.
<niceguybh> I think "casual" play has amazing possibilities... unfortunately, I'm speaking with little experience
<choochoomanz> i was forced last week at a play party in london...4 femdommes transformed me into a goddess for them
<BernieRoehl> Were they people you had played with previously, choochoomanz?
<Achilles{tr}> If thy try to take you to a place you have no interest in going... that might be considerd outside of 'sane' or 'consensual'.
<choochoomanz> was my first time
<BernieRoehl> And if you were willing, it would be a good example of casual (though perhaps very powerful) play
<choochoomanz> although i did volunteer for the dommes
<niceguybh> Can I ask a question... even though the play is "casual", can't the same emotions be involved?
<Specious1> I think casual might be the appropriate venue niceguy if your wife isnt into it
<Symmetre> not for me, niceguybh
<BernieRoehl> I believe that strong emotions can definitely be involved, even if the play is casual (in the sense of not being in the context of a long-term relationship)
<Symmetre> casual play, for me, is little more than flogger practice. There are no emotions in it at all. So for me, it's not the same as with a permanent partner
<niceguybh> well to be honest, I was in a very permanent D/s relationship until recently Specious, so it's not impossible
* BernieRoehl wonders if the term "casual" is perhaps a bit misleading
<Achilles{tr}> Emotions are intense only in relation to other emotions. I think a given person can encounter soem stronger and wider ranges of emotions iwth a partner who 'knows' them better than a casual partner. Ont he other hand... the uncertainty of a casual partner can present opportunities for nervousness and fear that might fade with that growing security of long-term.
<Specious1> thats true but I think might be less "messy" than a relationship where the other participant is looking for something permanent
<Symmetre> it's different for everyone
<yummy> i enjoy playing with friends......can be awesome.and way better than sitting and being a play wallflower until my mythical "right one" comes along
<`abi> no niceguybh...I don't think the same emotions can be involved...I think that if the play is casual, there are going to be walls in place (very appropriately so) which make it quite a different experience from scening with a partner with whom one shares a deeper relationship
<yummy> i am upfront and honest about what i want
<Specious1> anyway folks 6 am comes early. goodnight everyone
<niceguybh> I think I could submit and be hers... even for a few hours...
<yummy> and the play touches something in would be better with a permanent partner but seeing i don't have one well.....
<lil^tigress> playing even causally with someone whom you trust knowing that they can drop you deep into subspace can be as rewarding as the people involved make it
<yummy> i find that those with partners can be very hard on single folk without partners, and quite often try to trivilaize our play
<yummy> that can hurt
<`abi> I don't think it's trivial yummy, but I do think it's different
<Symmetre> perhaps lil^tigress ... but I can't find "dom space" at all with someone I don't care about
<yummy> its not for everyone and face it everyone's play is different
<niceguybh> and you can't care for someone who you don't have a permanent relationship with Symmetre?
<Symmetre> not in the same way, niceguybh .... for me .... it's not just about corporal punishment
<yummy> i just get a little tired of people saying 'oh it so shallow" i hate being told that i am not experiencing somehting as good as they get
<lil^tigress> caring for friends .. can be just as rewarding Symmetre
<niceguybh> exactly yummy....
<Achilles{tr}> There are many levels of scening and involvement in the lifestyle. Light play such as spanking of an otherwise vanilla partner... cyber, casual r/l, long time relationships and even 24/7. Each has its own pluses and minuses and is suitable fro someone. An infinite number of levels in between as well. Nobody needs to defend their own level. Just find it and enjoy it.
<Symmetre> lil^tigress .... perhaps for some ..... I would rather not play with friends. My choice.
<BernieRoehl> I think in some ways it's an apples-and-oranges comparison -- casual play is different, but can be just as good
<yummy> i'm not defending actually Achilles{tr}, just tired of having what I do put down
<`abi> it isn't a question of good or better yummy ... but it is different ... think of dancing with someone you just met vs. dancing with someone you know very well ... both very enjoyable, both very different ...
<Symmetre> That's right, BernieRoehl .... it's not that way at all. But what turns one person's crank may not turn someone else's
<niceguybh> maybe it can be better too Bernie... like sex in the vanilla world...
<yummy> i am not ashamed and don't apologize, i am greatful for those who do play with me cause i have learned a lot about me, what i like, what i don't like, what works what doesn/t and peoples different styles
<lil^tigress> Symmetre we all do what we feel is good for us.. as long as we enjoy doing what it is that we .. do .. do
<Achilles{tr}> I, however, found that causla play was light duty compared to what I enjoy now. As I say.. it suits different people at different levels and places. I sometimes wonder what's next. It just seems to be ever-changing. <smiles>
<yummy> i think playing with a variety of folks is a great way to learn what works for one
<yummy> casual play can be light or harsh....casual doesn't mean you don't know the person you are playing with very well
<Achilles{tr}> Again, that's just Me and effects how I would choose partners and decide on their levels of sanity and applicability to My own needs/wants. the topic of the discussion.
<BernieRoehl> So... sliding back over to the main topic for a moment... how does one gauge the interest in a potential partner, whether casual or long-term?
<`abi> drool
<Achilles{tr}> Mine or yours?
* Achilles{tr} smiles inquiringly
* BernieRoehl smiles
<yummy> i talk to people and get to know them, watch them play etc...
<lil^tigress> for myself BernieRoehl .. a casual play experience is only done with someone who i trust and respect.. if not i find that .. for myself i cant get what i enjoy out of it..
<sahara^> w2hat is the difference between yours or Achilles? :)
* BernieRoehl agrees that trust and respect is necessary, even for casual play
<niceguybh> absolutely
<Achilles{tr}> That's quite true. Casual play is a rather broad term for a lot of levels of play really. Is it someone you just met? Someone you know for a while but only scene with occasionally? Lots of different meanings and priorities come into play.
<lil^tigress> true and each level is seen differently by everyone.. for their own reasons
<BernieRoehl> So... how do people here go about determining if the interest they have in playing with someone is reciprocated?
<Achilles{tr}> Yep. So what I called casual might not be what lil^tigress calls the same. Defining the levels is not anything like as important as just finding the one each of us needs and then finding partners we can enjoy it with.
<Symmetre> I ask! lol
<^sky_> who trusts and respects who
<sahara^> BUT.. aren't you actually talking about free sex?
<yummy> i ask.......i think i have asked you more than once Bernie
<lil^tigress> by getting to know someone.. and talking to them .. and then.. just plain asking
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Achilles{tr}> Free sex?
<BernieRoehl> Free sex?
<sahara^> aren't you talking about free sex parties?
<yummy> go up, ask a friendly question (try to give the person i am asking a polite way out)
<sahara^> exactly
<yummy> no free sex sahara^
<BernieRoehl> Well, we weren't... but we could, sahara^ :-)
<sahara^> lol
<Achilles{tr}> Does scening have to involve sex? I'm not sure I follow.
<yummy> i look for play partners, not sex partners
<`abi> sex is never free
<sahara^> your mising my question bernie:)
<`Beldin> I will second that
<BernieRoehl> Play can involve sex, but it doesn't have to
* Symmetre is divorced ... no such thing as "free" sex!
<Achilles{tr}> OK... to answer the question... no sahara^... that isn't what is being talked about.
<`Beldin> I think I am presently paying for every little bit of sex I have ever gotten:)
<`Beldin> LOL
<sahara^> casual play=free play
<`abi> cheap night Beldin?
<`Beldin> LOL
* `Beldin bow's to abi point:)
<lil^tigress> sahara^ .. for most .. casual play is just that .. does not involve sex.. for others it does each makes and lives by their own rules
* `abi winks
<BernieRoehl> Ah, but play != sex, sahara^
<sahara^> lol
<yummy> play can be as satisfying for me as some sex
<SkyDom> From where? Are you a guy or a gal?
<sahara^> well excuse me folks:) for me it all relates to sex play
<Achilles{tr}> Really good play or really bad sex?
<lil^tigress> for you sahara^ it may but for others such as myself. .it doesnt..
<yummy> something like that Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> Now ya see sahara^.. that's exactly what I was saying. Finding matching expectations of what is to be involved is a VERY important part of finding a partner.
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, lil^tigress
<sahara^> i would say Sir
<BernieRoehl> And clearly, sex or no sex is something that needs to be negotiated before playing with someone on a casual basis
<lil^tigress> play is just that.. no sex.. as that goes back to my teachings where this is not about sex.. but it can be a hell of a nice. perk if everything and everyone are agreed
<sahara^> i wouldn't want to be invovled with any Dom that didn't find this sexual
<Achilles{tr}> There are certainly some for whom sex is a vital component. Others might disagree. Mismatched expectations can result in some pretty bad situations or at least some very disappiointing ones.
<yummy> it is sexual but it need not include intercourse
<`abi> and there is also a distinction between sexual and sensual
* BernieRoehl gets the sense that sex and BDSM is a good topic for another night -- will add it to the topic list
<sahara^> yes your right.. i have known others that are more into pain and deprivation
<sahara^> oh sorry everyone
<yummy> back to the topic BernieRoehl, do you mind being asked by folks to play?
<sahara^> this girl came late
<BernieRoehl> So... we're almost out of time. Anyone have anything else to contribute on the topic of finding a safe, sane and willing BDSM partner?
<yummy> how do you feel when us single folks come and ask you
<niceguybh> and it can just be about service... giving massage, pedicures, domestic duties
<BernieRoehl> Not at all, yummy!
<sahara^> should just disappear
<yummy> que`sarah
<yummy> is there a way you would prefer us to ask the question?
<que`sarah> Yes, yummy?
<BernieRoehl> Being approached for play is always a compliment
<niceguybh> good question yummy... how does a "single" person approach others... at munches or play parties
<`Beldin> or a proposition,,,either way it is good:)
<yummy> you get asked to play - is there a good way/time/place for folks to ask you to play
* ^sky_ is leaving the scene because no one will play with her
<sahara^> well thios girl has a question.. but i know it's best kept for the next time:)
<`Beldin> Bernie...will you Please play with me...............hey I bet that will work
<`Beldin> just not for me
<BernieRoehl> That *is* a good question, niceguybh. Let's keep this discussion going a bit longer
* yummy walks up to them, says hello and puts out her hand..then asks a number of banal cocktail party questions
<que`sarah> Mm, I'd say they're all good, yummy, although I'm happy to say that people have always been courteous in asking me to play. :)
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, sahara^
<BernieRoehl> That'll work, Beldin :-)
<`Beldin> I figure it would Bernie:0
<BernieRoehl> Courtesy is always nice
<yummy> how are you.....have you been to this munch before? are you Dom/sub? did you get in the scene....
<yummy> rarely have i had anyone be rude when i did that
<yummy> i still remember doing that to Achilles{tr} and abi at my first munch in KW
<niceguybh> those don't sound like banal questions yummy... :-)
<yummy> well they aren't rocket science ones niceguybh....pretty easy to memorize and ask....voila instant conversation
<niceguybh> LOL, writing them on my hand
<Achilles{tr}> "Cum here often?"
<Achilles{tr}> Subtle stuff like that.
* `abi remembers it too :)
<yummy> and come to think of it someone demonstrated how they could do that on command
<Opal``> smooth Achilles :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
* yummy giggles
<BernieRoehl> Well, on *that* note, let's wrap up the formal part of the discussion
<Achilles{tr}> Simple opening questions will often tell you a lot about a person just by how they handle themselves and how they interact. Do they keep eye contact? Do they seem interested in your answers or questions? Do they have anything in common with you?
<yummy> and what did it tell you about me Achilles{tr}?
<BernieRoehl> I'm going to close the log, but by all means let's keep on talking