November 23, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Emotions in Submissives". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
* jewel`{F} notices the absence of Male Dominates when women emotions are to be discussed
<Mistress_Carole> that's because they don't understand them
* melody`` laughs
<Mistress_Carole> because they are not genetically wired to do so
<Mistress_Carole> however, I also find it interesting that there are no male submissives here.
<Mistress_Carole> yet.
<Mistress_Carole> ok, I'll start.
<naughtyvickie> like what emotions?
<arhiannah> lol...i was waiting for that
* Mistress_Carole grins
<naughtyvickie> lol
<melody``> so are the emtional issues female based or is it a different combination of emtions for submissives vs Dominates
<naughtyvickie> who says we aren
<naughtyvickie> opssssssssss
<naughtyvickie> who says we aren't allowed emotions?
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> well, that was irritating.
<melody``> when i slip into subspace deeply its not emtional is something different its instinct.. more animal like..
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> who thinks they can TELL you not to have emotions??
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> does anyone else experience the animal instinct phase? I did when I was subbing...
<melody``> I see BDSM to be a combination of our most intense emtions love anger frustration passion lust..
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> disappointment, fear, excitement
<naughtyvickie> i feel a combination of all those emotions at one time or another during play
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> how do you feel afterwards?
<naughtyvickie> drained
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> because you allowed the emotions out? or because the endorphins ran out?
<melody``> with well thought out aftercare.. awsome..
<naughtyvickie> i would say both
<melody``> than later there is sub drop... ew
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> so play allows you cathartic release
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> my theory is that sub drop is an endorphin crash, kinda like a sugar buzz followed by the crash...
<naughtyvickie> it is not a fun time
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> then ... knowing that sub drop is on the way, why do you play in the first place? addiction?
<melody``> emtional highs are cool
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> are they worth the emotional lows?
<jen{SE}> when you know what it is, it is easier to deal with and also way easier to deal with when you live with your Dom
<naughtyvickie> i love the emotions i experience.........kinda of like a drug high
<melody``> i can get them from a good time with friends..than the disapointment of having to come home do laundry
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> that's why every sub needs a sub mel.
* Mistress_Carole{gp} grins
<melody``> lolol
<melody``> that sounds like gp talking'
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> oh, he would if he was around... he's avoiding his emotions by dulling them with Looney Toons on tv... <grins evilly>
* jen{SE} finds the best cure for sub drop is a hard knee to place my head on and take a deep breath *lol*
<DarkAngel^> lol
<jen{SE}> also found as time went on and i played more, the drop was much less
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I wonder if most subs hope that the endorphin rush will never wear off, which is why subs seem to want/need play more often than Dom/mes seem to
<jen{SE}> the play no less intense but the drop lessened
<jen{SE}> that is a dangerous place to go, i did, played numerous times a week for a six month period, never had a chance to come down from the endorphin rush, when you do... ouch
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> but it seems to be what everyone wants... 24/7, play every day...
<jen{SE}> i lost weight, was not sleeping well, all the signs of a an addict...
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I can see that happening
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> it makes sense, actually
<jen{SE}> *lol*, 24/7 is not play everyday... reality does set in *grins*
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> heck, I live 24/7... play twice a WEEK is a special occassion
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, Mistress_Carole{gp} that is a whole other topic, submissives/bottoms expectations *lol*
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> so... now I'm wondering how much of submissive's emotions are actually due to chemicals flowing through their bodies in weird ways
<jen{SE}> i think there is a combination of factors that come into play
<naughtyvickie> about as much as they are during PMS
<melody``> well i know that a breakdown in communication cancause incredible emtional reactions in a D/s relationship.. maybe because of its importance not sure
<jen{SE}> the attention that comes from play, the chemicals that come from play, and for some the need for the pain
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> oh, gawds, subbie drop and PMS at the same time... NOW I know why Doms get scared
<aurelle> lol
<jen{SE}> *lol*,
<jen{SE}> SE just says PMS not allowed in our house
* Mistress_Carole{gp} snorts
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I just tell everyone it's a chocolate moment, carry on
<jen{SE}> has to agree with Mistress_Carole{gp} snort
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> ok, submissives... you have all these wonderful emotions, good, bad, ugly... what do you want us Dom/mes to do about them?
<jen{SE}> i think part of the emotions comes from the closeness that is achieved in a scene, it is like when you cry when you are really happy, or really sad.. etc.. not really different
<naughtyvickie> acknowledge them
<jen{SE}> Whatever pleases You Madame
* jen{SE} sorry could not resist the sassy answer that drives SE crazy
* Mistress_Carole{gp} balls up jen's PMS and whips it at her head
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<arhiannah> lol...i get whacked for that one too jen{SE}
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> can't bug an ex-sub with that one jen, I have defense mechanisms in place... LOL, poor george.
<jen{SE}> nods, nods, much harder to get away with things that way
<jen{SE}> on the serious side i believe the emotions are dealt with as any emotion would be.
* firestar{LO} is getting over an emotional mess of late
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> but yes vickie, I know how important it is to recognize those emotions, even if they're sucky ones...
* Mistress_Carole{gp} wonders how many people are in therapy today because they weren't "allowed" to be sad, angry, etc
<jen{SE}> if i'm happy He shares that, if i'm sad He shares and helps there as well, if i need a hug, i ask please may i have one...
<jen{SE}> it works
<firestar{LO}> mmmm good question Mistress_Carole
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> one of MY favorite lines is "you don't have to be HAPPY about doing it... you just have to do it."
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> (I use it on my kids all the time.)
<_dove> If those emotions are present, for whatever reason, isn't it important to find out why?
<jen{SE}> exactly
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> heck, dove, sometimes we DON'T know why though... and bugging to FIND out why just gets more irritating.
<_dove> "i don't know" is a better answer than trying to hide those emotions, imo
<jen{SE}> no two worse words then "i'm fine".... *lol*, ya know you's in deep doo doo
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I'd rather george say "I'm pissed off, don't know why" than go around being pissed off over something and not telling me it's not something *I* did.
* Mistress_Carole{gp} looks at all the double-negatives in that last line and wonders if anyone understood what I tried to type
<Omy> In other words Carole you like Open and Honest Communication
<jen{SE}> it is extemely difficult for me and some i have talked to, to tell the Dominant what is wrong.. it becomes meeting my need, not His
<jen{SE}> silly but true for some...
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> ok jen, but honestly... and I know this is totally blasphemous to some people... but if you're NOT getting YOUR needs met, why the HECK are you there?
<jen{SE}> *lol*, i know
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> yep Omy, but the communication thingy is a two-way street... gotta come from both sides, or it's pointless
<Omy> true
<jen{SE}> but spoken in terms of little things, not big emotional differences where major needs are not getting met, that is where relationships end
<Loneoak-fs> but its all about meeting the needs of both the Dom/Dome...and the subbie
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> so you can do the mirroring thing "you say you're angry, but you say it's not at me. can you think of what happened to make you pissed off?"
<jen{SE}> but dancing to who's terms
<jen{SE}> if i just spend all my time trying to get the Dominant to meet my needs, who's the Dom.. *lol*
<_dove> i would think dancing to the terms that were agreed upon by both?
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> oh, come ON jen. the Dominants dance to the subbie's tunes. it's a simple truth that everyone tries to ignore... LOL
<jen{SE}> not in this house.
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> ;)
<jen{SE}> *lol*, SE carries a BIG stick (canes)
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> when he plays with you, who's benefit is it for?
<`abi> I'm not sure that I accept that expressing what you are feeling isn't about meeting a Dominant's needs
<`abi> they have a very definite need to know
<firestar{LO}> i think each the Dom/Domme and the B/both have to give/put 100% into the relationship
<jen{SE}> Both of ours, because we match, i do not push Him to play
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I do EXACTLY everything I want to george, that's on his lists of "likes and want-to-go-theres" ... so who's getting what out of play?
<jen{SE}> agree abi, but depends on how it is done
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> exactly abi... Dom/mes can't fix problems they're not aware of... it IS a need to be informed
<jen{SE}> still does not make it easy sometimes to get those thoughts across, i do not think it is wrong to do it, just know for some it is hard
* _dove thinks it is hard on everyone
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> well of course. sometimes it's harder on the Dom/mes... we have emotions we're not ALLOWED to express.
<_dove> What emotions please Mistress_Carole{gp}?
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, subs feel the sameway sometimes
<Loneoak-fs> I try to talk about our session after it is done with firestar..what she needs more of or what was not enough the communication is important all the time
* firestar{LO} agrees with Master
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> well, dove... if a Dom/me IS upset with a submissive, we feel we can't really show HOW upset (sometimes...) because of how much it can CRUSH a sub to see/feel it
<``melody> as soon as communication stops than problems begin
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> if I'm angry about something, george automatically assumes it's him, even if it was the kids, work, the cat, whatever...
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> so I can't be angry...
<Loneoak-fs> aggrees with mel
<jen{SE}> that is true of any relationship
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I ALWAYS try to let george see how proud I am of him, or how happy I am with him... but when I'm upset, I try to hold back
* Mistress_Carole{gp} grins
<_dove> i would think that i'd like to know if i've angered anyone like that - perhaps after emotions have calmed?
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I never was afraid to tell him I was ticked with him when I was subbing to him... it was HIS problem, see?? LOL
<Loneoak-fs> I feel holding back robs the relationship .. its not being honest with you submissive...
<spirited_sassy> or yourself Loneoak-fs
<jen{SE}> how does communication and emotion differ in D/s than any relationship??
<firestar{LO}> holding back is when damage happens imho
<jen{SE}> communication at what level?
<AndrewDom> let's not forget subbies have emotions can be honest, truthful about what did or didn't happen but in a kind and humane manner
<AndrewDom> lots of great questions....
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> IS there a difference? I don't think so, not really... not if the "standard" relationship is a deep one, not superficial.
<spirited_sassy> i don't think it does differ jen{SE}.....communication is needed in all good relationships
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> "sex is easy... INTIMACY is hard."
<`abi> I think that the difference is perhaps in how emotions are expressed
* DarkAngel^ isnt easy
<firestar{LO}> if there is a communication problem, it's going to come out in an emotional way
<AndrewDom> really abi?
<`abi> yes, AndrewDom....really
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> lol at DA
<AndrewDom> please explain
* Loneoak-fs Dragonchaser
<`abi> I think that there are ways to express emotion which are acceptable in a vanilla relationship, which aren't acceptable in a D/s relationship ... it doesn't mean that the emotions aren't experienced or expressed, but there is a greater emphasis on respect, responsibility and protocol
<DarkAngel^> nicely said `abi
<spirited_sassy> nicely put
<AndrewDom> well put, I agree
<Loneoak-fs> but if you dont express all of your emotions from eather side you are dammaging the relationship and not meeting your needs or the subbmissives needs
* _dove agrees with Loneoak-fs
<DarkAngel^> she didnt say not expressing them Loneoak-fs ,,, she said HOW to express them
<DarkAngel^> big difference
<AndrewDom> owever, I'm not sure that the protocol, responsibility or respect in a D/s relationship makes the emotions non-acceptable....if that were the case won't they just go 'underground' and emerge somewhere or in somethign else
<Loneoak-fs> agrees...
<`abi> I agree AndrewDom... which is why I said that they are still experienced and expressed
<`abi> it's the how that is different
<Loneoak-fs> thats what i was trying to say ...Andrew
<_dove> i don't think either party should 'swallow' their emotions, it spells nothing but disaster, ultimately.
* DarkAngel^ often has to deliver a "message" ,,, I have tack, experience ,,,,, and understanding of people and protocol to deliver it whereas others might just start an argument
<AndrewDom> so if they are experienced and expressed...why are they "unacceptable" then...?
<DarkAngel^> the important thing is gettingthe idea across ,, not "winning" an argument
* AndrewDom is trying to understand, not create a hassle here
<`abi> because if you do not express them in acceptable ways then you damage the dynamic
<spirited_sassy> and your own mental health
<Loneoak-fs> why would any emotion in its raw form be unacceptable in a D/s relationship
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> I guess because you can't beat your sub while you're mad at them Loneoak-fs
<DarkAngel^> well Loneoak-fs ,,, anger in it's raw for can result in murder ,,,, your point ,, but I hope that illustrates why your point isnt realistic
<`abi> if You have a relationship which is based on the explicit demonstration of respect...then to act in a way which denengrates that is ultimately counterproductive
<AndrewDom> but by teh very name ("dynamic") it IS in ebb and any conversation ...with the understanding of the roles but not limiting the expression of the inner being
<Loneoak-fs> if I am mad then I shouldnt have a subbie under my cane till calm which is what i pratice
<_dove> Does that submissive know You are angry during that time Loneoak-fs?
* firestar{LO} is confused are we speaking of showing emotion or "acting on emotion" a bit difference in my opinion
<DarkAngel^> ahhhh then you do not express your issue in it's raw for ,, as you just asked why not a sec ago Loneoak-fs .... I agree btw
* firestar{LO} Master and this one never play while/when "angry"
<Loneoak-fs> yes I voice my emotions or i take a walk till i can express my self in a calm focused manor
<_dove> Thank You Loneoak-fs *s*
<DarkAngel^> Domination ,, IMO ,, is control ,, raw expressions are both counter productive and directly at odds with such dynamics
<_dove> There are still ways of expressing those emotions without damaging the dynamic, as abi said..... they cannot be buried, imo
<DarkAngel^> submission ,,,Mmm how is that different ,,, answers ??????
<firestar{LO}> DA Sir, how do you deal with a submissive then Sir when You have anger present?
<Mistress_Carole{gp}> well, I've always wanted to allow my submissive to RELEASE control... so I would LIKE to see all that stuff, the good, the bad, and the ugly...
<Loneoak-fs> yes but for a Dom/e to take the raw emotions of the subbie and train her to focus on them and control the feelings and express them in a focused submissive manor
<DarkAngel^> well firestar{LO} ,, I take a deep breath ,,, then make sure I have all the facts ,,, then drop the subject or discussion till the next day ,,, then I check facts again ,,, but then "I" am in control of myself
<AndrewDom> DA...I agree domination is control..but not raw control..or control in a raw is control of the end decision/action etc...not necessarily of the process to get to that end....that, inho, negates the personhood of the subbie
<firestar{LO}> nods, ty DA
<`abi> and most of that applies to a submissive as well DA... we take a deep breath, we make sure we understand and we ask permission to discuss the issue when heads are calmer
* firestar{LO} agrees with abi
<jen{SE}> agrees with abi, for me there is a protocal to air what i feel
* jen{SE} calling Him a butt head in anger would not be one of them *grins*
<DarkAngel^> well AndrewDom ,, depends upon the level, extent, and type of Power relationship you are involved in ,,, personally I am a type who favours a structured, protocol oriented relationship ,,, so IMO ,, for my case ,, I disagree with you
* AndrewDom agres with calm head prevailing for sure
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<AndrewDom> fair enough
<jen{SE}> SE and i usually do a dinner night, a bottle of wine and talk...relaxed, comfortable and calm
<DarkAngel^> of course ,, that said ,, if you do not allow a slave/sub the structure to discuss such issues ,,, you would soon no longer hold such power over her/him
<_dove> exactly, DA
<DarkAngel^> exactly jen{SE} ,,,
<AndrewDom> agreed DA
<DarkAngel^> again ,,, as I always say - it depends upon therelationship
<DarkAngel^> BTW ,,, shamless plug here ,, but in 2004 DAL will be Hosting a London Series Workshop on Hight Protocol
<Loneoak-fs> but also if a subbie does not express their feelings or emotions and says all is ok when it is not for fear of angering the Dom/e then the relationship will fail again because the needs are not being met
<jen{SE}> does that mean short people can't come DA (height)
<jen{SE}> still says it is easier said then done... Loneoak-fs
<DarkAngel^> in an effort to add relationships to the SM Educational Series
<DarkAngel^> LOL
<wolfgirl> you have to know what your feeling and be able to express yourself, some people are really not intouch with themselves enough to be able to give voice what is really going on in side
<jen{SE}> everyone talks about communication, but few get it right... myself included in the not getting right side
<DarkAngel^> communication is,, and always will be a two way thing ,,, if EITHER party does not participate ,, then the relationship suffers
<`abi> I think that the responsibility of the Dominant is to create a safe environment for that to happen in Loneoak
* AndrewDom has taken/taught communication skills/theory courses and still gets it wrong!!
<Loneoak-fs> jen ya have to make time in the relationship to talk .. mabe not at the time the emotions or anger is running wild .. but at some point
<jen{SE}> that is good to see DA, many seminars on play, but few on relationships
<Kilted_One> ex boss of mine put it the best way I have heard about communication...."Message sent but maybe not recieved or understood"
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<kiiera> i am a late entrant and i do apologize, but wouldn't a sub/slave hoprfuly have outlined his/her perameters before the relationship starts? And given the extremely close nature of a Dom/sub.. would the Dom not pick up on their cares?