November 18, 2001 EhBC Online Discussion
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using twisted.ma.us.dal.net as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion is "Ins and Outs of BDSM". The moderator tonight is TimberWolfl. Enjoy the discussion!
[rhiannon{KO}:#bdsm-kw PING]
<_hemo`> 2 sec TW
<BernieRoehl> (I'll fix that typo on TimberWolf)
<`TW> NP
<BernieRoehl> 1 sec from me, TW
<`TW> as I was saying Earlier
<Edgelust> Hi bernie :)
<BernieRoehl> Hi, Edgelust
* /msg: insufficient parameters
<`TW> tonight we are disscussing
<`TW> "The Journey begins...Coming OUT to ...yourself....., your lover...and finally to the world!"
<`TW> thanks rhiannon{KO}
<BernieRoehl> Great topic, TW
* Kilted_One knights `TW with his @ "I knight thee, SIR `TW"
<`TW> thanks
<`TW> now does anyone have anything they want to share about this......
* BernieRoehl smiles
* Kilted_One mutters to himself that mirc always does its "thing" right at the worst moments
<`TW> it is a major life journey for most of us
<BernieRoehl> Well, I like the way you set up the topic
* _hemo` has at various times tossed his collection of toys
<BernieRoehl> The first step is to come out to yourself -- that is, to acknowledge your own desires
<`TW> exactly Bernie
<BernieRoehl> For many people, that's the hardest step -- it often takes years
<`TW> and that is often the hardest Outting
<`TW> LOL
<Omy_> I think that journey is the long one
<dalian> coming out to myself was easy once I had the term to describe my desires...but I struggle with coming out to others
<`TW> did you find all you lacked was a term dalian?
<Omy_> I spent a great many years thinking I was a degenerate
<`TW> As did I Omy:) and then I realized I am...and that is ok:)
<Omy_> Course my roman catholic upbringing probably had something to do with that
<dalian> a term and that I wasn't alone in my desires...I didn't just think that I was kinky while being submissive...the two terms didn't jive together for me
<`TW> interesting
<oasis{Omy}> there is that urge excitement to share with others... those closest you think may understand.. sometimes... you discover.. how lil some are "willing" to understand
<`TW> so the realization that you weren't alone was important for you?
<Omy_> Sure helped me out
<oasis{Omy}> funny thing... some of our best torments where creatred by the roman catholics
<`TW> hmmmmm did meeting other help your acceptance of yourself OMY?
<dalian> yes, it was...I always struggled with trying to describe to others what I was about without them thinking I was too wierd...knowing others who *knew* what I was about made a hugs difference and that I suddenly wasn't insane
<BernieRoehl> I've been very fortunate, in that the vanilla friends I've come out to have been *very* accepting
<`TW> I guess we all can relate to that at some level:)
<Stevius> the lack of terms is a real issue in coming out...I think even now, we hardly have the vocabulary to adequately describe what we do, and why
<BernieRoehl> Their reactions varied from curiousity to mild surprise. Some have come to munches, and even play parties
<Omy_> Yes TW
* Kilted_One thinks that half of Bernies 'nilla friends turned to the lifestyle after he came out to them :))
<`TW> LOL
<`TW> likely Bernie could Convert a nun I believe:)
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Stevius -- agreed. The first few people I came out to about BDSM were the hardest, because I had to find the right words to explain it to them. Once I'd gone through that thought process, it got easier for subsequent people.
<oasis{Omy}> odd thing the net saved me.. finding groups of people similar interests.. in a safe enough format that i could be myself without it entering my everyday world
<Omy_> Why do I need to explain why Stevius? The fact that it brings me pleasure should be enough
* BernieRoehl smiles, and agrees with KO :-)
<BernieRoehl> I probably could, TW! :-)
<`TW> :)
<oasis{Omy}> lol
* BernieRoehl likes a challenge
<Omy_> Try flogging oasis{Omy} without restraints bernie Laughing 0ut Loud
<`TW> So once the first and perhaps largest hurdle was crossed how did it effect comming out to others?
<Omy_> err Bernie
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Stevius> it should be Omy_, but some people feel a need to explain, or some people feel a need for explanations, to sort things out, but fundamently you are right, its your pleasure and doesn't need justification
<BernieRoehl> It made it easier, for me. Not only because I'd found words I was comfortable with (and that my vanilla friends were comfortable with), but also because the first few were so accepting that it encouraged me to keep going.
<Omy_> I can explain some of the dynamics...but would they understand?
* oasis{Omy} waggles her brows
<`TW> True Omy can a nilla person understand us?
<_hemo`> in some ways hasn't bdsm become more mainstream? Thus possibly making it easier to share
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with _hemo`
<oasis{Omy}> do they have to understand or are we seeking thier acceptance.....
<`abi> only in some ways hemo....generally speaking I think the vanilla world still finds it difficult to understand that nice men can hit women and strong women can relinquish power
<`TW> yes it has hemo........and is that not a good thing
<Omy_> In my BDSM world, pain is part of it...and most people can't understand how one can derive pleasure from it
<pandora``> my vanilla friends keep trying to convince me that i should be Domme, and of course, they think that they know better than me
<Edgelust> Omy, I think sometimes vanilla people worry that we're in it for the 'wrong' reasons and need reassurance that we're just fine!
<_hemo`> Omy use the analogy of hot food painful but sure is good
<`TW> Interest phrase OMY....IN Your BDSM...isn't that part of our problem....it can't be neatly defined
<Omy_> Ohh that's a good one hemo
<Stevius> the hiting women part has really inhibited me...its a pretty sick concept from some people's perspectives
<`abi> and sometimes even a difficult concept for Doms to get past themselves Stevius
<`TW> Yes it is Stevius
<Omy_> I had a personal issue with that myself Stevius...and to this day...slapping a women in the face is not something I can do
<BernieRoehl> I've found that choice of words is really important. I stay away from "I enjoy hitting women", and focus more on "giving strong stimulation and intense sensations"
<Stevius> agreed, I can't say I am overly proud of it
<`TW> That was my Struggling block abi...not the thoughts of others...but my upbringing
<Omy_> There is a german phrase I came across recently...schradenfreud
<Stevius> ah...Bernie the spin doctor
<Omy_> deriving pleasure from the misery of others
<oasis{Omy}> belives personally .. its more "accepted" to be Dominate than submissive... what kind of nut would want some one busting thier ass and ordering them around...
<Stevius> but phrasing is so important in describing this stuff
<oasis{Omy}> <-- happily welll ajusted sick nut
* Omy_ holds a mirror in front of his girl and winks at her
<`TW> and ofcourse there are other issues
<Symmetre> heyas
<`TW> if you were nilla would you be disscussing your sex life with these people
<`TW> would it apply at all?
<`TW> and if not...why then are you based on your kink
<Omy_> Well that's another point...my private life is not spelled public. I don't discuss it with others
* oasis{Omy} winks at herself
<Stevius> TW, I think a lot of people try to weasle around the sex life aspect of bdsm..by talking about lifestyle, or sensation seeking
<`abi> I think of it as less like discussing my sex life and more like discussing my sexual orientation ... which still makes it selective, it just isn't relevant to everyone
<BernieRoehl> I had a close friend back in Montreal who came out about being gay. He did it because he found it too difficult to hide -- it was an important part of who he was. I think the same thing can apply to us.
<Symmetre> rats
<Omy_> I'll discuss it with people in the 'lifestyle' but not as a matter of general discussion
<`TW> Excellent Points abi and Bernie
<`TW> and exactly to the point
<Stevius> thats a good distinction, abi, between sexually orientation and sex life
<`TW> in many ways I think we can learn by those that have come before us with their sexual orientation
<Edgelust> it's hard to hide it from the plumber when he stares at the huge eye-bolts in my doorway :)
<BernieRoehl> For one thing, he got tired of people introducing him to single women
<pandora``> i told my friends about my involvement mainly because my first Master would not allow me to do anything with my friends without asking his permission first, consequently i could not make an instant decision about going to a movie, i had to get permission first and then get back to them, and it seemed unfair to the vanilla friends to have them think i was looking for something better to do
<`TW> ya I get tired of being set up with nilla women from friends and family
<_hemo`> Edgelust, isn't that for your chinup bar? ;-)
<Edgelust> yeah hemo, but why 5 of them? lol
<Omy_> Hmmm good point pandora``
<`abi> double chin Edgelust?
<`TW> lol
<Edgelust> lol
<suzq{CK}> limbo practise?
<_hemo`> hehe
<Edgelust> stretch n limbo workout!
<Omy_> As a Dom pandora``, that's not a problem for me. For the sub though, it certainly raises some issues
<BernieRoehl> The other thing is that there's really no such thing as being "a little bit" out. I know some people think they can tell a few of their friends, and keep it from the others -- which usually doesn't last long. :-)
<`TW> So then if it is relevant for a gay person to come out to friends...is it relavant for us to as well
<BernieRoehl> I think it is, TW
<`TW> or is it just that some of us tire from hiding it
<`abi> it depends TW ... I have several circles of friends ... in some it is relevant, in others it isn't
<_hemo`> good point about fatigue TW
* ^sky__ is planning to tell her nephew at xmas
<Edgelust> lol merry x-mas honey
<BernieRoehl> And the gay community started finding a lot more acceptance once they started coming out. Once people realized they already had gay friends, family members and co-workers, they began to re-think their stereotypes -- which I think is a good thing.
<Stevius> I am not sure if the analogy between gays and bdsmers is entirely apt, TW
<`TW> why not Stevius?
<`TW> excellent point bernie
<^sky__> he is really my only close relative i have left
<pandora``> in a way i think it is Stevius, as i too get tired of trying to dodge being set up with vanilla men by my friends, just as i would if i were gay
<`TW> does that scare you sky?
<`abi> and I think it depends on your individual situation ... if you are living in a TPE situation, that's quite different than if you're hitting a fetnight in Toronto a couple of times a year
<Edgelust> I think it's important that we first totally accept ourselves..not wanting approval..which is unlikely anyway
<oasis{Omy}> north america there seems to be a universal issue with anything sexual... or seemingly sexual
<`TW> very true
<^sky__> no, i think he should know
<`TW> so then by bring things out a s a commuinity we gain?
<Edgelust> yeah oasis, the only sex life many people have is yapping to each other about us
<_hemo`> well by bringing things out and having a community one is no longer alone
<`TW> LOL
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, _hemo`
<`TW> true and as a community can't we help to educate and remove stereotypes?
<oasis{Omy}> what ever turns thier crank :)
<`abi> I think as a community, we gain in large ways when there is a level of understanding great enough that people don't fear for their jobs or custody of their children
<`TW> or from the Police
* BernieRoehl agrees with abi
<Edgelust> one difference between gays & bdsmers is that bdsmers can still visit their lovers in hospital..get their life insurance..pretend to be 'normal'..where gays have zero choice
<`TW> hmmmmmmmmm
<oasis{Omy}> my job my children would be lost without hesitation
<`abi> but I also don't think that every person has to sacrifice themselves on the alter of community acceptance
<Edgelust> I agree abi
<BernieRoehl> True, Edgelust -- we're lucky that way. However, a Master/slave relationship has no legal signficance, even though in some ways it's much deeper and more meaninful than a marriage
<`TW> true i THINK IT HAS TO BE AN INDIVIDUAL DECSION
<`TW> sorry
<Omy_> I agree Benrie
<Omy_> I think the relationship that develops is much deeper than the majority of 'vanillaville'
<Edgelust> but Bernie, you still have a choice as a het couple..to marry...
<BernieRoehl> It's definitely an individual decision, but the more people who do come out, the more acceptance all of us will see
<BernieRoehl> True, Edgelust
<`TW> so how we get to an interesting area
<Edgelust> yes Bernie
<`abi> I agree Bernie ... and I think that most of us come out at least selectively
<`TW> as a master you choose to be OUT....but your sub....has kids and is not so sure
<`abi> and all those little steps hopefully add up
<`TW> or has a job she worries about losing
<`TW> or hell just doesn't want to come out
<`abi> I think that's something that has to be considered before someone enters a relationship TW
<`TW> yes but is it abi?
<`TW> is it negotiated?
<`abi> if I hate golf, I'd better think twice before I move in with someone who is going to spend every weekend golfing
<Stevius> abi, isn't coming out selectively something like being a little bit pregnant..that is, you may not have much control over how it develops
<BernieRoehl> That's one reason I think it's important to let prospective mates know about one's being "out" before getting into the relationship
<`TW> or are people just so relieved to find someone that has an attraction that is mutual and is kinky
<`TW> Or turn it around
<Edgelust> personally, I feel no need to reveal or to hide my kinky sex habits :)...but I do agree that acceptance will come over time if we share info about our lifestyle w/others..but we also have to give some explainations...to assure them we're ok..it IS consensual on a deep level
<`abi> only to an extent Stevius ... I think that there is always the possibility that two friends will tell two friends, but in general, I have been quite successful in selectively coming out
<`TW> does an "IN" Dom have the right to control how "OUT " his OUT subby is
<Omy_> I don't think so TW...that might cross the line of consent
<Stevius> good question TW...like lots of other questions over how far a Doms rights go
<`TW> BUT are you talking TPE?
<`abi> but I also don't "worry" about people finding out, so it's not a huge deal for me
<`TW> OMY?
<BernieRoehl> If the submissive is already "out", it would be hard to put the genie back in the bottle :-)
<Edgelust> that's another interesting topic...Domming vs control freak meanie
<_hemo`> well if that was one of the "limits" discussed, I think Dom has an obligation to respect that
<`TW> LOL OR the DOm ...That was my Point thank you Bernie:)
<Omy_> I don't think it matters TW...TPE or not...rela life may dictate that she can't come out
<`TW> I knew if I kept searching I would find it or someone would
<Edgelust> right like an ex of mine who teaches Catholic High School..she Needs to be in the closet..
<`TW> Does she really?
<`TW> would the courts support her dissmissal?
<`TW> are we just scared of exposure
<Stevius> peer pressure is a scarey thing, TW
<Edgelust> yes because the school is at least partially funded by the Catholics..
<Omy_> I don't think that would matter...I think she'd fell shunned and wouldn't return
<`TW> and OMY ..I agree with you:)
<BernieRoehl> Good questions, TW. I don't think there's ever been a test case, so if she was a good teacher then she mihgt have a case for wrongful dismissal.
<Edgelust> and imagine what fantasies the boys would have after hearing about her lustful nature? lol
<Edgelust> no b/c you are in a role-model mode as a catholic teacher...and they CAN dictate your moral life
<Omy_> I don't think she'd pursue it Bernie...who'd want the puiblicity
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps
<`TW> YEs very True
<Edgelust> they can say..NO homo-sex...
<`TW> it would take a very Rare person that woulkd want to cast themselves in the national spotlight
<Edgelust> I think they'd likely have support for the opinion that she is immoral..
<`abi> and in the end, that's what it comes down to TW
<`TW> but when someone like that does come along...I think we need to support and thank them
<`TW> it is one thing for my Family and friends to know I am a "kinky" ...it is another for the whole world to
<`abi> Terry Jean Bedford
<Edgelust> yeah abi, they wanna shame people into the closet..which is why we have to really feel good about our life style
<BernieRoehl> So... out of curiousity, who here is "out" about BDSM to their vanilla friends, at least to some extent?
<Edgelust> like you Bernie, I recruit all my vanilla pals :)
<`abi> probably did more to bring a discussion of BDSM into the light of day than any of us will be able to do
* BernieRoehl smiles at Edgelust
<`TW> I am out to friends and family..........
<`abi> to varying degrees Bernie
<_hemo`> A couple of friends but not family
<`TW> but when I say that...they know about my toys and that I am kinky ....but not much else
* BernieRoehl nods
<Edgelust> my family chooses to ignore all the signs in my house..mom has actually stared at the eye bolts almost lost in a fantasy *lol* umm and says nothing
<Stevius> not out at all here, BernieRoehl
<BernieRoehl> That's all most of my vanilla friends know too, TV
<Edgelust> I actually take pride in being a kinky grrrl
<BernieRoehl> I generally tell them only the minimum amount they need to know, and then let them ask more questions if they're curious
<`TW> good for you:)
<Edgelust> I've been a rebel from a young age..and now I'm comfie as hell w/it
<`TW> well my Mother was too curious for my liking.....so i cut her off during our question period:)
<`abi> I've found that to be a good approach too Bernie ... generally if I throw the word "fet" into a conversation, they either snap it up or their eyes glaze over
<Edgelust> **kinky rebels unite**
<Edgelust> lol TW
<Stevius> a lot of it must depend on your situation....if you are middle aged, living large in the 'burbs, you don't want to risk messing that up
* Kilted_One laughs and remembers his Dad picking up the steel collar and cuffs and having a good look at them when he thought I wasnt watching, but never said anything, or when he has walked unexpectedly through the dungeon and seen some of the equipement set up witout saying a word
* BernieRoehl high-fives Edgelust
<Edgelust> LOL Kilted One
<`TW> :)
* BernieRoehl smiles in agreement with abi
<Edgelust> KO who knows what that started in his sex life?
<`TW> So before we run out of time...anyone ever come out to a nillia lover?
<Edgelust> before or after she's in the sling TW? :)
<`abi> lol
<`TW> LOL
<suzq{CK}> lol
<`TW> ROFLMAO
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<_hemo`> lol
* Kilted_One came out to his nilla wife who never did handle it
<Edgelust> to this day KO?
<Kilted_One> yeah well she is dead now but it was over four years of not accepting it
<Omy_> Did you know you were 'kinky' before you got married KO?
<`TW> I got lucky I guess...I was in a nillia relationship miserable sexually atleast...when she approached me about "freshing " up our sex life
<Edgelust> KO I'd say killing her was over that edge bad
<`TW> I think to this day she regrets it
<`TW> heheheh
<oasis{Omy}> hmmm came out to my ex he said i was a sexual deviant and frigid of alll things
<Edgelust> I'm sorry KO
<Stevius> wasn't too good for me either...was like saying I had terminal cancer
<Kilted_One> I didnt even know waht Kinky was when we got married at 19....thought I was just like everyone else ya know naughty pictures turned you on sort of thing
<Kilted_One> no worries Edgelust
<`TW> a frigid , sexual deviant???? interesting
<`abi> my dog is finally getting past being a DungeonMaster .... coming out to your pets can be the hardest thing of all
* Omy_ looks at his girl Frigid?? What is that guy talking about? Your a walkign honeypot
<Edgelust> abi, especially if you've been pseudo domming them until now and turn sub on them lol
* oasis{Omy} chooses this moment to blush and hide beneath his chair
<`TW> I don't think any of us did in our youth KO
<Edgelust> I was kinky from a young age
<`abi> well, my dog is a wee bit confused about the come command now Edgelust ;)
<Stevius> ah yes...youth is wasted on the young
<`TW> I must say I look at some of our younger members...and wonder if they are mature enough/old enough to be in this lifestyle
<Edgelust> not all my choice..but I know knew what pleasure was
<Omy_> Hmm I knew I was...but wasn't sure how you went about it...felt better when I found there were fetish movies
<oasis{Omy}> books.. movies... snipets of literature and a kinky boyfriend at age 19 made me realise my desires
<Edgelust> TW, why b/c maybe it's not 'deeply' consensual..you think they might not realize what they're getting into?
* Kilted_One laughs at abigailles predicament...."come dog come" and having to go get some kleenex.....
<`TW> LOL
<suzq{CK}> lol
<`TW> yes exactly Edgelust
* BernieRoehl laughs
<Omy_> Laughing 0ut Loud
<Edgelust> TW, some 'older' ppl also seem confused about why they're involved in it
<`TW> or to realize how comming out could effect there life
<`TW> as Bernie said ..that genie don't like to go back in the bottle
<Edgelust> I had my 1st structured scene@17..and damn it was hot
<`TW> this is true
<`TW> I wasn't really meaning agewise
<Edgelust> I see TW :) yeah I've played w/a couple ppl who might've been in it for the wrong reasons..
<Edgelust> I found out later..or during a scene
<`TW> well everyone
<Edgelust> it can be too raw for some
<`TW> if no one has anything official they want in the Log?
<`TW> :)
<Kilted_One> are you from the South Edgelust??
<Edgelust> Toronto
<`TW> you may want google to find something specific with your nick next time?
<Edgelust> but have a strong pull westward :)
<_hemo`> thanks TW for moderating an excellent discussion
<`abi> lol
<`TW> ok logging out
<`TW> LOL couldn't resist
<Kilted_One> ohh was wondering when you said "it was hot"
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Kilted_One> thanks TimberWolf
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for a great job moderating, TW!
<Omy_> Thanks TW