November 14 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.  Also note that the discussion is being logged.  If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick.  Tonight's discussion topic is "Punishment".  The moderator tonight is autumn whisper.  Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> And now I'd like to introduce tonight's moderator... autumn whisper
<Finn^m^> clap..clap..clap...clap..
<{autumn}_U_> lately this topic seemed to be discussed a lot even in day to day chat in channel so we thought it might be a good topic for discussion....
* BernieRoehl applauds for autumn
* {autumn}_U_ curtsies and thanks all around...hehe
<Finn^m^> :)
* lil^bear^ wiggles her toes
<{autumn}_U_> one point that my friend Dirk brought up earlier was .....punnishment is for criminals ....we punish them.....subs/slaves need discipline and guidance.....i thought that was interesting 
<Finn^m^> I can agree wit that..
<BernieRoehl> And yet, some people also punish their children.
* Kilted_One wonders what "punishment" areas that autumn was going to discuss?
<LrdTZ> and the difference being in Dirk eyes.
<TheWolfe> depends what is meant by punishment
<{autumn}_U_> one guides and teaches.....the other influences separation and resentment i think ....i dont know what Dirk's personal distinction is between the two LT
<{autumn}_U_> but it is individual as anything else is in this lifestyle 
<{autumn}_U_> what i want to know is how does one decide the physical and non physical
<{autumn}_U_> when each is used or a combination
<{autumn}_U_> some people are set in their ways it seems and others more so go with the flow.....
<{autumn}_U_> but for me discipline that is psychological is more effective than physical
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with autumn
<canplay> my Master reserves physical for pleasure and desires, discilpine/punishiment is non-physical here
<{autumn}_U_> can you give an example canplay?
* His^wickdgirl{SL} nods to canplay. I never receive a "physical" punishment if "physical" is meant to represent pain
<canplay> just HIs words ..or lack of them is discipline enough for me
* {autumn}_U_ agrees....
* Kilted_One has known the "silent" treatment to be most effective
<{autumn}_U_> sometimes just that look when you know you've displeased is enough
<C_Chrysalis> if a submissive finds sensory overload is "good play" . . . it is difficult to use that effectively as a punishment . . . 
<TheWolfe> perhaps we need to define punishment & discipline
<{autumn}_U_> what is your view TW?
<TheWolfe> on what?
<{autumn}_U_> i guess i was asking for your definition
<Hardest``> isn't psychological punishment used everywhere...between couples....if u go outside the boundries of what I think is good taste I will leave u......in sports....if u screw up one more play u'll be benched...in bizness..if u screw up this contract we'll take away ur corner office
<TheWolfe> ok
<TheWolfe> Discipline is erotic
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> That's more manipulative to threaten in such a manner don't you think Hardest``?
<TheWolfe> punishment is a "corrective" tool
<Hardest``> more effective mebbe
<{autumn}_U_> i've never thought of it that way....discipline as being erotic....
<TheWolfe> really?
<{autumn}_U_> yep
<{autumn}_U_> the whole issue for me is a sensitive one but never thought if it as erotic
* Kilted_One thinks that several couple get off on the dicipline kick....school Master/Maam....student thingy
<TheWolfe> most ( I think) see play as erotic & discipline as a minor form of punishment
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> role playing a "discipline scene" is really not the same as discipline in a Ds relationship, which I agree with autumn, is not erotic
<Lotta_Skull> agee's with TW
<TheWolfe> well, we are having a discussion about it, what is the sensitive issue for you autumn?
<{autumn}_U_> it's knowing it's going to happen
<Finn^m^> if you have a good relationship with the sub...they should know when they've dissapointed you...and that should usually be enough..if you let them know...
<{autumn}_U_> when i find out or he tells me....i get this automatic sinking feeling in my chest.....
<{autumn}_U_> and trust me it's not erotic....lol
<TheWolfe> punishment is NOT erotic
<TheWolfe> discipline is erotic
<LrdThomas> punishment is a defining characteristic of D/s vis a vis nilla.  it is a tool, used to release the slave from her error, to move forward knowing her master has put it behind her.... it is also the mechanism to ensure emotional baggage doesn't creep into the relationship.  Punishment is also the most misused aspect of d/s.
<TheWolfe> agreed LT
<{autumn}_U_> but even though it gives a momentary sort of absolution of guilt for what i have done.....but it does stay with me
<TheWolfe> and most misunderstood
<LrdThomas> it is also an opportunity to teach or re-teach expected behaviours and attitudes.
<DukeDom> and what else do we do which is not erotic?
* BernieRoehl agrees with LT
<BernieRoehl> Well said.
<lyxanna> agreed apon behaviours 
<{autumn}_U_> yes very
<TheWolfe> I can cane en as a form of discipline that will bring her to orgasm
<Lotta_Skull> knowing where your error was should stay with you thats why your punished ....
<TheWolfe> I can cane en as a form of punishment & reduce her to tears
<katiias> what is the difference, TheWolfe??
<katiias> in the way You administer?
<DukeDom> and what effect does it have on you TW
* canplay thinks pavlov is turning over in His grave
<`abi> seems to be a point of departure here....LT seems to think it puts the error behind, LS seems to think it makes it stay 
* DukeDom thinks Freud is smiling
* `abi thinks Dukey doesn't even vaguely resemble Freud
<TheWolfe> the difference is how it is presented & carried out
<DukeDom> is power not a sexual thing?
<{autumn}_U_> this was a hard topic to find some direction for....i tried and researched some but it's soooooooooo individual to each of us and our relationships.....
<Lotta_Skull> it allows for the actual error too be put behind or forgiven but knowing what you did wrong stays..
* Kilted_One wonders if Freud had a Texas paint stick??
<TheWolfe> the affect on Me is wonderful as far as discipline is concerned
<DukeDom> yes .. but he used it on his mother
<{autumn}_U_> what about punishment TW?
<TheWolfe> as for punishment...it is necessary..however the sadist in Me does enjoy it
<DukeDom> but not sexually?
<`abi> what would happen if you didn't punish TW?
<TheWolfe> sexually it is a definite turn on
<{autumn}_U_> thats another question.....your guiding and teaching and you administer the punishment....do you find enjoyment at that moment or when she shows she has learned.....she/he sorry
<C_Chrysalis> I guess I have a different take on punishment/disapline . . . (terminology being much here) I will do an s/m scene . . but would not call that disapline or punishment . . . 
<TheWolfe> if I didn't punish then there may be confusion
<`abi> how so TW? ... 
<{autumn}_U_> well for me its a need.....i want to be corrected....even if its difficult
<TheWolfe> "does He not care enough about me anymore?"
<DukeDom> a need that isn't erptic ... hmmm
<Lotta_Skull> thats MY take too CC a sceene done for pleasure is a differnt stroke ....
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> I guess to me, discipline is not any particular "moment". Discipline is the constant learning, the performing to certain expectations, in a certain manner, and having the discipline to follow those regardless of personal mood, etc. Failure in that, results in punishment.
<`abi> so punishment proves you care?
<LrdThomas> the key to effetive punishment, is her knowing the mistake, and taught how to correct it... and then her knowing unequivocally, that her master has forgiven and forgotten when its over.  Without that, your wasting your time and playing games with her head.
<TheWolfe> that is one example abi
<C_Chrysalis> keeping "sceneing out of disapline and punishment is important for Me for without the proper frame of mind and training . . . disapline and punishment is of non-effect . . . 
* sweetslave{AF} agrees with LrdThomas
* {autumn}_U_ also agrees with LT
<TheWolfe> there is a discussion before & after punishment
<`abi> I find it interesting that society has for the most part dispensed with physical correction for children, yet our D/s culture suggests that it is a highly effective means for correcting adults
* LrdThomas despises punishing, isn't turned on by it... but always does it... because it is a critical aspect of the relationship dynamic for reasons stated.
<{autumn}_U_> good point abi......
<TheWolfe> physical is one aspect
<TheWolfe> psychological is also very effective
<Finn^m^> every relationship is diff...each has its own dynamic..you have to find what works for both..
<TheWolfe> agreed Finn^m^
<sweetslave{AF}> i would think if the sub is still carrying baggage long after the punishment was administered...then the Dom hasn't held on to his side of the leash so to speak
<{autumn}_U_> for me its more effective TW.....the psychological that is
<{autumn}_U_> how do you mean sweetslave?
<katiias> mebbe i'm off base here ...but...why are long-time subs doing something with their Dom that brings about the need for punishment? should not the expectations be clear in a long term relationship so that the submissive will not be doing something that the Dom disagrees with so severely that it merits a punishment?
* His^wickdgirl{SL} smiles at {autumn}_U_, yes, very much so here as well.
<C_Chrysalis> *nodding to LrdThomas* . . . I do believe that head games when it comes to correction can devalue the communication and trust that is so intregal in a D/s relationship
<TheWolfe> we are all human katiias
<Lotta_Skull> as adults we can consent to physical disapline...children cannot 
* Kilted_One agrees with abi....mental punishment is far more effective and more importantly...seperate from physical interactions....hence no chance for confusion the issue
<katiias> yes and?
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> Beg your pardon katiias, but even us "long timers" make boo-boos. Some where regret is enough of a correction, some requiring more.
<katiias> k
<TheWolfe> the physical is definitely separable by many things
* LrdThomas uses both mental and physical if the need arises... why limit oneself. <weg>
<TheWolfe> tone, lack of comforting contact, not allowing the submissive to go into subspace, etc
<sweetslave{AF}> a sub will go through unbearable emotional turmoil in having been found displeasing, but when given the tools to correct and the forgiveness, combined with the knowledge that it will not be drawn upon later...she learns quickly, makes attempts to correct the behaviour and the emotional left overs fade quickly...not resting as a seed to eat away at her psychological well being long afterwards
<`abi> I have to wonder if at least part of the reason for physical punishment is to give the Dominant as sense of having been responsible for a change in behaviour that in fact the submissive would quite probably have brought about of her own free will
<Kilted_One> but is it that simple for "you" to seperate it Wolfe...you said that it gives pleasure to you....is that seperation?
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> sweetslave{AF}, how very nicely put :-)
<TheWolfe> I don't get sexually aroused with punishment
<{autumn}_U_> and how does one decide between the physical or psychological?....when to use either or a combination of both?
<TheWolfe> but My sadistic side enjoys it
<canplay> my Master removes pleasures as form of discipline,,i questioned His art one day and was made to shave myself ... soemthing that He normally did for me *pouts* 
<C_Chrysalis> I have no problem laying down the flogger . . whip whatever for pleasure . . . but it pains Me to NEED to disapline . . . 
<DukeDom> you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink ... but you can shape a subs behavior ... future actions ... by physical and/or mental discipline alone ... with no desire on their part?
<Kilted_One> <TheWolfe> as for punishment...it is necessary..however the sadist in Me does enjoy it
<Kilted_One> <DukeDom> but not sexually?
<Kilted_One> <`abi> what would happen if you didn't punish TW?
<Kilted_One> <TheWolfe> sexually it is a definite turn on
<katiias> disjointed
<Kilted_One> your words from earlier Wolfe would appear to say otherwise...have I missed something 
* katiias doesnt think those follow as He meant them to... :
<TheWolfe> I enjoy discipline & become sexually aroused by it  
<DukeDom> as do I TW
<{autumn}_U_> i have a question....
<TheWolfe> I enjoy punishment but there is no sexual arousal
<TheWolfe> is that clearer?
<TheWolfe> feels like "The State vs. TheWolfe" *smile*
<DukeDom> lol ... yes ... much TW <smile>
<^^danae^^> actually...i have heard..and seen an interesteing reaction where there is sexual arousal...during punishment...and...arousal from the tears of the submissive being punished
<^^danae^^> i have been punished..truly punished only twice....and each time ny own body has betrayed me by becoming aroused
<BernieRoehl> Can you tell us more about those experiences, danae?
* Kilted_One thinks that danae just made my point again
<C_Chrysalis> so is the differentiation between "play" disapline . . . and  punishment? I cannot not enjoy punishment . . . wish I did . . . I feel that I have not properly instructed . . . or taught one what was expected or they would not "need" punishment
<DukeDom> was it betrayal ... or the desired reaction
<`abi> draw the sporran a little closer KO and no one will notice ;)
<___key___> http://www.100monkeys.org/index.shtml?monkey=199
<katiias> ROFL
<^^danae^^> Punishment..was for me the most awful experience in my life......i A) had to confess to my sins...something i do not do 
* Kilted_One reminds Wolfe that there is no states in Canada....well not yet anyway ;)
<^^danae^^> B) i had to do penance for my sins
<TheWolfe> (TheProvince sounds weak)
<katiias> The Crown
<^^danae^^> the hardest thing for me to understand was that there could be forgiveness
<concubinary> does anyone have any experience of punishment of disapproval not actually physical
<`abi> could there have been forgiveness without punishment daisy?
<{autumn}_U_> i can identify with that danae....
<^^danae^^> Duke Dom in the case of punishment is was a betrayal..it was not the desired reaction....during the confession i was reduced to the lowest i have ever been
<^^danae^^> abi...how can you be forgiven is you do not know what you are being forgiven of
<^^danae^^> therefore confession is a must....
* Finn^m^ hugggs wiggly....bear..:)
<`abi> so the punishment was to teach you what you had done wrong?
<{autumn}_U_> i agree.....even if its difficult danae
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> forgiveness does not require the consciousness of the transgressor,
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> but correction does
<^^danae^^> punishment is difficult....it is the hardest thing you ever have to go through...
* {autumn}_U_ agrees
<{autumn}_U_> it hits you hard inside
<DukeDom> because you want or need it to?
<maryM> knowing you deserve punishment is the hardest thing to go thru I think
<TheWolfe> the punishment should be to adddrees the wrong & move on...a cleansing
<{autumn}_U_> both i think Duke
<^^danae^^> His^wickdgirl{SL} ..then again...if You are not conscious how do You know if You have been truly forgiven
<`abi> I agree His^wickdgirl{SL} ... I'm just not convinced that physical punishment is necessary in order for me to come face to face with my errors
<{autumn}_U_> i dont think it is abi.....
* canplay agrees with abi
<TheWolfe> punishment does not have to be physical
<maryM> I agree with you abi, it is a quick catharsis, thoigh
<{autumn}_U_> i think there are times when a discussion is sufficient....i punish myself sometimes more so than Master ever would
<concubinary> i agree with maryM, it's cathartic but dissaproval is much more powerfull
<^^danae^^> perhaps not...physical....before i served my penance before a hand or touch..i was reduced to a place i do not want to reutnr to
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> I was just making a point, that forgiveness does not require your consciousness.  I think in essence, a Dom forgives before he/she punishes.  They've moved through their anger/fear/issue, gotten rational, decided on a course of action, and are ready to explain it to you. They would not punish if there were no forgiveness, they would release
<DukeDom> it sounds to me as if punishment is being used for anything more than a communication tool ... if not being used for it's eroticism
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> Your absolution, through them and yourself, comes from your awareness
* {autumn}_U_ agrees
<^^danae^^> punishment is used as a tool....it is not about sex!!!!
<TheWolfe> it is not erotic
* LrdThomas agrees with mary.... punishment needn't be dragged out to some long laborious harangue..... show her the eroor, explain the expectation, ask for her comments, punish and move on..... life has too much other stuff to hang onto punishing too long.
<TheWolfe> agreed danae
<^^danae^^> to teach something to show, a error
<TheWolfe> to put it to rest & move on
<^^danae^^> suppose a Dom owns a sub....who...refuses to understand her value...her place..her status...
<DukeDom> in who's eyes danae?
<`abi> I wonder if we punish because it is a tradition, a trapping of the lifestyle ... we do it because we like to do it
<maryM> punishment saves a lot of pain to me. I would rather have "paid" for my sin than to think it was still owing
<^^danae^^> DukeDom if it is about SEX, then it is not punishment...that is like saying being denied an orgasm is punishment...laughing
<{autumn}_U_> me too maryM
<`abi> that is punishment daisy
<LrdThomas> no abi... i punish to relieve her of her werror, and to avoid building up long term resentment and or emotional baggage..... it is critical to keep the relationship fresh, imho.
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> to some people ^^danae^^, that may very well be a punishment
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> or a caning, or whatever.
<earthmyst[ES]> hello there
<maryM> LOL that is cruel, abi, but punishment?  I think not LOL
<^^danae^^> then i see punishment way different then anyone else,,,,
<`abi> so without physically punishing LT, you would be incapable of forgiveness and she would be incapable of changing her behaviour/attitude?
<{autumn}_U_> i agree with you danae.....
<`abi> I suppose it depends on how bad it feels mary...for me...trust me...it's punishment
<^^danae^^> Punishment is about...learning...it is about...trying to change a way of thinking...
<TheWolfe> I agree with you also danae...
<{autumn}_U_> its about guidance and learning and growth
<LrdThomas> i didn't say physical abi... what the punishment is, is irrelevant to this discussion, but imperative to the individual infraction.
<DukeDom> when someone changes a behaviour, is it because they wanted to or because they were disciplined?
<TheWolfe> we all have our own methods
<maryM> Lord Thomas I agree with you, punishment keeps emotional baggage from wrecking us as in the vanilla world
<TheWolfe> they wanted to
<`abi> all right...remove the word phsical LT...would you be incapable of forgiveness without punishment and would she be incapable of change without punishment?
<^^danae^^> abi...please forgive me but being denied an oragams is frsutrating at best...It does Not make You truly think and see what it is You have forgotten or not learned about Yourself!!!
<TheWolfe> consent
<DukeDom> then it's only a comunication tool
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> DukeDom, I think the sub must have the desire to change the behavior in order to please the Master, it can't be "forced" into them.
<`abi> yes danae, in fact it does 
<DukeDom> my point Hw
<TheWolfe> I am lost here
<`abi> denial is a very effective motivational tool to be used with me
<maryM> I do not agree that punishment should be used to teach... if you did not know you were doing wrong why would you be punished, you need enlightening. Punishment is to correct a willful act of disobidience
<{autumn}_U_> well we all have those things that work for each of us....
<{autumn}_U_> what works for one person might be nothing to another
<Finn^m^> what if you're denied denial???
<Lotta_Skull> agreeing with abi sexual deprevation works very well for punishing one of MY girls but not the other....
<{autumn}_U_> oh sure Finn....lol.....
<DukeDom> that's *very* hard to do Finn <smile>
<Finn^m^> I dont deny that DD..:)
<^^danae^^> somewhere along the line i think i must be lost....for part of being a submissive or slave is also about living uo to my true potential..which has very little to do with sex and play....
<^^danae^^> ou +up
* {autumn}_U_ agrees
<LrdThomas> abi, no.  But your wording is confusing and i'm concerned trying to label or over simplify the issue.
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> May I ask, at what point as a Dominant do you choose to pursue punishment? What if the infraction is regretted severely (true regret, not just regret about being caught at it)
<DukeDom> I use punishment as long as it amuses me ... and the offending party
<`abi> I don't think you're lost at all danae ... but for me punishment is not a part of learning to live up to my potential ...communication is ... motivation is ...trust and respect are 
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> As long as it amuses the offending party?
<TheWolfe> punishment is another tool abi that's all
<maryM> here here, abi
* His^wickdgirl{SL} is confused now
* BrothrPain smiles
<BernieRoehl> If I feel that the submissive genuinely regrets what she's done, but still feels the guilt, then punishment may offer absolution.
* ^lil^bear^ applauds abi
<BrothrPain> punishment as a game
<TheWolfe> punishment is not a game
<`abi> I'd agree Bernie...I think it does serve that purpose for some
<BrothrPain> punishment as absolution yes, but punishment that is enjoyed is just a word game
<His^wickdgirl{SL}> If it is meant to amuse both parties, its a role playing scene
<katiias> punishment is not a game
<BrothrPain> if it is enjoyed, it isn't punishment
<^^danae^^> Let me try this again....i have only been punsished twice...this is not to say that my...behaviour was not corrected in various ways...but to be PUNISHED...to be reduced and truly shown how i had let myself down...only happened twice
<maryM> Bernie, do feel punishment is a gift that a Dom might give his sub so that she might forgive herself?
<LrdThomas> ypou folks need to invoke the laff rule.... its simply stated a rule, that if the slave can make me laugh in context to her error, she can ask for the laff rule to be invoked, at which point, all the forgive and forget strictures apply.
<^^danae^^> LrdThomas...ooh i like that RULE
* ^lil^bear^ giggles...bear can make everyone laugh
<C_Chrysalis> if indeed . . . consent is honored . . then one must understand the issue and the punishment to consent and profit from it
<BernieRoehl> That's certainly one valid use of it, maryM.
<maryM> I like that one Lord Thomas
* Finn^m^ can make bear laugh too..:)
<{autumn}_U_> me too....lol
<BernieRoehl> I like that rule, LT!
<Finn^m^> good rule..:)
* Kilted_One has live his life that way LT
<{autumn}_U_> and if nothing else im kooky enough to be too good at that i think...lol
<Kilted_One> vanilla as well as D/s
<Finn^m^> humor is soo important
<^^danae^^> yes it is.....i agree
* BernieRoehl nods in enthusiastic agreement
<C_Chrysalis> for some a physical punishment is a "gift" something done and over with . . one that brings introspection and evaulating the error is "worse" . . . *little laugh* it was for Me as a child . . . 
<^^danae^^> i don't expect to be punished for forgetting to light a Dominants cigarette!!!
<maryM> I think sometimes we forget we started this to make our lives more fun Or as we say in Texas more funner LOL
<Finn^m^> new topic..."blowing loud farty noises on a subs tummy...punishment?..or pleasure?"
* BrothrPain smiles
<BrothrPain> okay, ya'll have a good one
<^^danae^^> i do expect to be punishend for say putting myself in an enviroment that was truly unsafe and jeopardized..my health 
<^lil^bear^> FINN!! roflmao
<DukeDom> lol ... an you didn't recognize it danae?
<^^danae^^>  well, never mind...this seems to be going down hill now...goodnight all
<{autumn}_U_> nite danae
<TheWolfe> well Dom/mes don't always recognize it either DD
* Finn^m^ tries to be flexible..
<`abi> which raises the question....what happens when Doms screw up?
<{autumn}_U_> good question abi
<TheWolfe> They say they are sorry
<`abi> and we forgive them...what a concept
<Finn^m^> works for me..:)
<maryM> Doms SCREW UP?   OH< God!  I never knewthat it wasn't me  lol
<TheWolfe> you don't have to
<`abi> shhhh mary...I didn't say that out loud!
<TheWolfe> you can walk away if it was serious enough
<`abi> as can you TW
<TheWolfe> exactly
<TheWolfe> your point being?
<`abi> that behaviour can be changed and/or forgiven without the use of corporal punishment
<TheWolfe> yes it can
* Kilted_One thinks that he gets a good view of pieced nipples when he screws upwards
<Lotta_Skull> absolution has too come from within...MY worst screw up resulted in ME not forgiving MYself for weeks finally MY girls talked with ME made ME realize I had too let it go ....
<katiias> LOL@KO
<Kilted_One> pierced even
<LrdThomas> i think you made that point abi, and i agree..... but punishment need not be corporal, and i thought we made that point too.
<Finn^m^> nipples???...*perk*
* `abi laughs at KO
* katiias chortles
<^lil^bear^> lol KO
* Finn^m^ would chortle...if he knew how..
<`abi> yes, you did LT ... so what happens when you screw up?
<TheWolfe> s/m isn't a necessary part of our lives for us to live either
<katiias> type this way... c h o r t l e
<katiias> its easy
* Finn^m^ thinks bear need pierced nipples....hmmm..:)
<katiias> honest
* ^lil^bear^ looks to Sir Finn...NOT
<Finn^m^> nooo???
<^lil^bear^> NO
<{autumn}_U_> so the Dom is responsible for his own absolution?
* ^lil^bear^ wonders if she stutters
* Finn^m^ would pout...but it's not manly..lol
<katiias> seemed pretty definite to me lilbear
<TheWolfe> we could have the same agreements & disagreements discussing canes or floggers or bondage 
<`abi> arguable TW ... but if we choose it, then it follows that we can choose and discard various aspects of the lifestyle... I'm not suggesting that people discard punishment if it enhances their relationship, I'm only suggesting that it isn't a necessity for everyone
<LrdThomas> abi, i will answer that question when we next meet at a munch... will take 20 minutes of typing to respond here.... a vlaid question, but a cold irc log isn't the way to make myself clear.
<DukeDom> they *all* sound like fun
<TheWolfe> I don't think anyone disagrees with you abi
<Finn^m^> for me..the relationship should be a friendship..and in  a friendship..thres always 2 way screw-up absolution...
* `abi smiles .... I'll look forward to it LT
<Kilted_One> abi I know what I do when it is clear that I was wrong.....I mentally punish myself....I also apologise to the offended party
<^lil^bear^> agreed abi!!!
<{autumn}_U_> well.....it's that time.......thanks everyone for participating.....*smile*.....
<maryM> nice discussion  
<DukeDom> and thank you autumn
<LrdThomas> thank you autumn.... nite friends.  
<{autumn}_U_> that was a tough one.......
<{autumn}_U_> nite LT
* Finn^m^ tries not to punish lil^bear..even if she jumps in puddles!!!
<Kilted_One> well done autumn
<DukeDom> oh sure ... someone doesn't get *your* sub for 20 minutes
<^lil^bear^> HEY
<Lotta_Skull> I hold MYself responsable for everything and that results in personal emotional punishment ...guess I must look within for forgiveness even after all tell ME its ok it aint with ME ...
<^lil^bear^> now we discussed that....bear did not put the puddle there GOD did...
<katiias> lol
<BernieRoehl> Thank you autumn -- it was a really interesting discussion.
<sweetslave{AF}> excellent discussion autumn
* {autumn}_U_ smiles