November 10, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Consensual Embarrassment and Humiliation". The moderator is BernieRoehl. Enjoy!
<mist{LW}> unfortunately i do too_willing{T}
<BernieRoehl> Hi everyone!
* mist{LW} runs up and huggles BernieRoehl, cause she hasnt been able to for sooooooooooooooo long
<jewel`{F}> Bernie good evening Sir *hugs*
<Fyre{j}> nice introduction Bernie, impecable timing
<mist{LW}> evening Bernie Sir
* BernieRoehl smiles and gives jewel`{F} a big hug
<Symmetre{t}> hiya BernieRoehl
* BernieRoehl huggles mist
<lilmunchkin> hello BernieRoehl
<BernieRoehl> I'll be at the London munch tomorrow, to deliver hugs in person
<BernieRoehl> Hi, firestar{LO}
<firestar{LO}> hi ya Bernie
<Fyre{j}> ok Bernie, I'll be first in line
* BernieRoehl smiels
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> So, I see that ModBot has done it's job and set the topic
<too_willing{T}> good Modbot!
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any opening thoughts on embarrassment and humiliation?
<mist{LW}> ohh, going to be first in line for the huggles
* mist{LW} isnt so good at taking humiliation from anyone
<victoria_angel> me neither mist ;-(
<firestar{LO}> 'the secretary" is playing tomorrow afternoon at Rainbow in london
<firestar{LO}> and at 7 00
<firestar{LO}> oops and 3 00
<Symmetre{t}> I love humiliation! For someone who is responsive to it, nothing will put her (or him) into subspace faster
<BernieRoehl> I know that a lot of people have negative reactions to the concept of embarrassment and humiliation, even if it's consensual
<mist{LW}> it depends on what the humiliation is, and how it is used on me
* too_willing{T} finds it hard to discuss... though the fascination is there...
<mist{LW}> for Master to scold me, or make me stand in a corner because i was doing something He didnt like, is very painful mentally for me
<BernieRoehl> I'm curious... what do people think of when they hear "humiliation"?
<Symmetre{t}> humiliation reaffirms that one party has a level of control over the other ... its far more absolute than a simple whipping or bondage
<dalian> I think of "don't even go there"
<too_willing{T}> it makes me think of the base of humility
<Fyre{j}> embarassment is usually a simple technique to start with when gauging a submissive's sensitivity ... a simple blush test tells a lot
<too_willing{T}> base word
<BernieRoehl> Is there a difference between embarrassment and humiliation, or is it just a qeustion of degree?
<too_willing{T}> i think it would be a question of degree for me
<Symmetre{t}> there's an outrage to humiliation ... the person doing it gets into the other's mind ... and they both know it. Embarrasment can happen by accident. Humiliation can't
* jewel`{F} knows that Master likes the blush test a lot
<ravenswolf> humiliation is intentional
<Symmetre{t}> humiliation is calculated
<dalian> for me growing up as a young child, I had one parent who used humiliation on a daily basis...and while I've healed old wounds...humiliation is still a tough trigger for me
<lilmunchkin> what is the blush test?
<Sweet1`> perhaps the use of humiliation in the d/s context is not the same as the dictionary definition
* too_willing{T} nods at Sweet1`
<dalian> I see a difference between humiliation and embarrassment...same as was said above
<mist{LW}> humiliation is the deliberate attempt to make someone feel small, unimportant, less than human
<Sweet1`> and that since it's consensual and both parties use it a positive thing it's a mutual benefit
<mist{LW}> embarassment is not nearly as harsh
<Symmetre{t}> I disagree strongly mist. I don;t see it as an attempt to make someone feel subhuman at all
<Symmetre{t}> to the contrary
<Symmetre{t}> I see it as an attempt to emphasise that there is a power dynamic in place
<too_willing{T}> so why do some of us enjoy it? i don't see it as taking away from 'self' if it is consensual
<Sweet1`> in the d/s context its not negative, and the sub is actually enjoying it
<mist{LW}> i think if someone is treated as a dog, they are being made to feel less than human tho Symmetre{t}
<Sweet1`> only if it is negative to them to start with mist
<Sweet1`> to some it's rather pleasurable
<BernieRoehl> I attended a workshop on the topic at Black Rose last weekend. It was really interesting.
<too_willing{T}> so what do they get out of being 'made' to feel like a dog? what trigger does it push for them positively?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> only if they did want to be treated like a dog mist{LW}
<Sweet1`> it's freeing
<Symmetre{t}> with all due respect mist, I believe that's up to the person concerned. What works for them doesn;t necessarily float any one else's boat
<Sweet1`> it allows you to go deep within yourself
<Sweet1`> and you actually are stronger for it when you come out the other side
<mist{LW}> perhaps thats why i dont take humiliation so well, as well as the fact that i was humiliated in front of my family, friends and my exs coworkers all the time
<mist{LW}> twenty four years of that can be hard to remove from ones mind
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Humiliation is a tool often used (consentualy) to bring a person closer to their submission
* Fyre{j} is waiting for someone to say humiliation is an assertion of power by the dominant ... it can all be part of the power exchange
<Sweet1`> it should not be looked upon as dehumanizing or degrading or any other negative sense to those who enjoy it
<DarkAngel^{rt}> then it isnt for you mist{LW} ,, and I respect that
<BernieRoehl> "Humiliation" covers a lot of territory. Just as someone may enjoy a flogging but hate stubbing their toe, some people like certain types of humiliation while hating other types.
<twilight_girl> The same way physical pain is exciting for alot of people, emotional pain can be as well. Obviously not to the point of being traumatic, the same way physical play shouldn't cause permanent injury, but some emotional turmoil, such as humiliation of embarrasement cause be a good turn on as well
<Sweet1`> bondage in front of others can be humiliating, just like being made to pee in a cup
<Symmetre{t}> I don;t see it in a pain context. For myself, it's far more about control and power
<DarkAngel^{rt}> both are turn on's for my slave twilight_girl
<BernieRoehl> The woman who co-taught the humiliation workshop described it as "emotional masochism", which seems apt.
<mist{LW}> now see, i actually dont find peeing in front of anyone humiliating, and i can eat from a dog dish without feeling it, that was just an example
<Symmetre{t}> lol BernieRoehl ... I've also heard of it referred to as an emotional enema
<DarkAngel^{rt}> Humiliation is best done within an established relationship where both parties wish it and after a good amount of discussion
<mist{LW}> but put me down as being stupid or not to have done something properly, that is humiliation to me
<Sweet1`> agreed well as the long term 'after care'
<mist{LW}> i guess what has to be known is what is humiliating to one, isnt to another person
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I dont suggest casual play Humiliation play ,,, too dangerous ,, unknown triggers etc
<jewel`{F}> i remember one Woodstock munch that Master and i were at, Master teased and playfully embarrassed me to the point i thought my blush would be in my cheeks for weeks, at the same time that i wanted to crawl under the table and hide it also made me feel very possesed and cherished, that i was truly His
<too_willing{T}> i can understand that feeling jewel`{F}
<Fyre{j}> moi?
* Fyre{j} smiles sweetly
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those Woodstock Munches are wild I hear
<BernieRoehl> That's the sort of feeling that many submissives seem to get from humiliation (for those who enjoy it)
<Fyre{j}> its the water DA never drink it at the Woodstock munch
<DarkAngel^{rt}> any other examples of Humiliation people care to share ?
<Fyre{j}> humiliation can be as simple as having a submissive beg for you .....
<BernieRoehl> Bunches
<Symmetre{t}> humiliation can be as simple or as complex as you care to make it ... depends on the people involved
<BernieRoehl> Some people find it humiliating to have to crawl, or beg
<Symmetre{t}> it can be as simple as being led on a leash
<too_willing{T}> is the not wearing of panties rule a form of humiliation
<Fyre{j}> exactly
<BernieRoehl> Others find certain types of clothing humiliating (things that are revealing and/or provocative)
<Symmetre{t}> to elaborate .... such as being forced to wear a remote controlled vibrating butt plug in public
<Fyre{j}> could be ..... its more a form of control for Me
<DarkAngel^{rt}> could be too_willing{T} ,,, if it makes you feel owned ,, but is close to the edge for you
<BernieRoehl> Some submissives find it humiliating to be treated as animals, or infants, or inanimate objects (footstools, etc)
<Symmetre{t}> or made to pee outside
<too_willing{T}> does humiliation connect with objectification?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> to others ,, not wearing panties is a relief ,, lol,,, it would be a punishment if I made her wear them
<BernieRoehl> Objectification is a form of humiliation
* jewel`{F} nods in agreement with DA
<too_willing{T}> oh.... hmmmm
<`abi> but not always BernieRoehl .... I process objectification very differently from humiliation
<DarkAngel^{rt}> humiliation to one isnt humiliation to anouther
<BernieRoehl> For some submissives, not being allowed to wear panties is embarrassing. Having to inform everyone else that they're panty-less is even more embarrassing. Having to *show* people that they're not wearing any panties is humiliating.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that is why I do not like when people judge a relationship or play within a relationship from outside of it ,,,,
<BernieRoehl> True enough, abi. Can you expand a bit on the difference between the two?
<twilight_girl> How about not being able to talk in public? Or being told to "stay" instead of to "wait".
<DarkAngel^{rt}> there are no hard lines to actualy point to twilight_girl
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those you mention could also be considdered a part of TPE
<twilight_girl> I find its alot easier to be humiliated in front of others than with only you and your partner
* too_willing{T} muses about the wholes symantics of what words mean to people
<Symmetre{t}> humiliation isn't something that can happen in a casual environment. For humiliation to really work ... to really underscore that there is a power dynamic in place ... to really make her wet, so to speak ... it depends on having a very intimate knowledge of one's submissive. You have to know what will make her tick
<mist{LW}> hmmm, perhaps i may have been too quick to judge some forms of humiliation
<`abi> I can try Bernie ...objectification allows me to focus intensely inward ... humiliation does the opposite
<BernieRoehl> That makes perfect sense, twilight_girl
* DarkAngel^{rt} looks at the clock ,,, gggrrr life intrudes
<BernieRoehl> Is it the fact that objectification often involves not being able to communicate, and therefore it's easier to focus inward?
<`abi> and objectification is very yin for me ... it's a quiet peaceful state ... humiliation is very yang ... there is alot of energy, struggle
<Fyre{j}> one of the things DA mentioned was communication, and knowing where that space is to create the ticking Symmetre{t} speaks of
<Sweet1`> i have seen it the opposite way for some abi...for some it's a very quiet place for them to go inside themselves
<`abi> I'm sure it works differently for everyone Sweet1 .. which was my point ... objectification does not equal humiliation for everyone
* Symmetre{t} cuts to the chase ... I love it because I enjoy seeing a woman cringe .. do something that makes her very wet ... she knows I know she's getting wet ... and she can't stop it! It makes her even wetter ... and we both kow that ... and it drives her nuts
* BernieRoehl smiles in agreement with Symmetre{t}
* too_willing{T} blushes... from Symmetre{t}'s comment
<Fyre{j}> what you call "humiliation" are actually things the sub may be too inhibited to allow his/herself to enjoy doing on her own...and by ordering it, releasing the sub's responsibility of guilt, in some way.
<Symmetre{t}> and that's what makes it magic ... that she's getting wet and she knows she can't control it any more
<BernieRoehl> To me, the effect that humiliation has on someone is very profound, and very satisfying.
* too_willing{T} nods to Fyre{j}
* Symmetre{t} agrees with Fyre{j}
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Fyre{j} -- that's one form it can take. Certainly having someone dress or act in a way they wouldn't choose to of their own free will is one form of humiliation.
<too_willing{T}> i would also imagine a lot of trust in specific areas would have to be present first - in my case, my protective defenses would be raised otherwise
<Symmetre{t}> there's no question, humiliation relies on intense, intimate knowledge of the other person ... its no fun if you step on a toe and ruin the mood by going too far
<too_willing{T}> part of the learning curve too....
<mist{LW}> brb, prob with puter
<BernieRoehl> So what other things do people consider "humiliating"? We've mentioned a few (objectification, forced dressing and behaviour)... what else?
<Fyre{j}> upfront communication and aftercare ,,,,, always best to know where all that dampness came from
<Fyre{j}> forced undressing in front of others works too Bernie
<twilight_girl> Humiliation can also be used as a form of discipline. I know that when I'm being humiliated, by behaviour improves istantly. I would do anything to make him stop.
<BernieRoehl> So stripping, perhaps in front of strangers?
<Symmetre{t}> certainly
* too_willing{T} likes doing that!
<Fyre{j}> well stripping in front of family is just a bit too kinky even for Me
<too_willing{T}> family is another matter...
<Symmetre{t}> being blindfolded and fondled by .... well ..... they're not really sure about that
* BernieRoehl laughs
<BernieRoehl> Being handled by strangers (again, not by family!) is good
<Symmetre{t}> especially if the person is blindfolded. Afterwards ... they're not sure who they can and can't look in the eye
<BernieRoehl> Exactly
<Symmetre{t}> did that once at a play party .... was great
<too_willing{T}> other humiliation act could be the exposure of private actions. whether by the telling of or by the doing of them..
<fiestyone> being handled by strangers is exciting to some..not humiliating
<fiestyone> this girl finds being made to leave the bathroom door open....humiliating....everyone has something different
<Symmetre{t}> the vibrating butt plug is another. I have one ... remote control ... wireless remote works to about 20 feet
<Fyre{j}> a simple form of humiliation could be having your flogger carried to you in your crawling submissive's mouth
* too_willing{T} agrees with fiestyone
<Symmetre{t}> so I have tori wear it out and about ... on a trip to the mall, for instance
<BernieRoehl> Privacy is a priviledge, not a right, fiestyone
<Fyre{j}> so are clothes Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, Fyre{j}
<too_willing{T}> so humiliation has to do with the values of what is private to each person and how those values relate to the society we are in
<BernieRoehl> Now, some submissives are somewhat exhibitionistic, so being naked in front of strangers is no big deal. That brings us back to the idea that humiliation is different for everyone.
<Symmetre{t}> once I had tori wear her vibrating butt plug on a family visit ... I'm playing with the remote, making like its the alarm control for the truck and its malfunctioning. Several elderly relatives offeret to help ... truck hood open ... they're pushing the button ... it was great
<Symmetre{t}> she went nuts
<Symmetre{t}> but in a good way, of course
* BernieRoehl laughs, enjoying Symmetre{t}'s idea!
<too_willing{T}> rofl
<Symmetre{t}> serious ... one uncle is pointing the thing out the window, pushing the button over and over ....
<Symmetre{t}> she's almost having a stroke
<Fyre{j}> Symmetre{t} wins the Evilest Bastard of the Month Award
* BernieRoehl chuckles
* Symmetre{t} grins ... thanks
<Symmetre{t}> but what made it awesome wasn;t that her ass wass buzzing ... but that I wasn;t the one doing it ... and she couldn;t say anything or do anything about it
<Symmetre{t}> dang ... need a new keyboard!
<twilight_girl> There must be an infinite amount of ways one can be humiliated
<too_willing{T}> maybe new fingers
<Symmetre{t}> lol
* Fyre{j} sees tori slack jawed saying 'but, but, but' with glazed over eyes
<Fyre{j}> but we digress
<twilight_girl> oh, that's mean Symmetre
<BernieRoehl> Some humiliation play can be more extreme, of course. The demo at Black Rose was quite intense. Not the sort of thing I go in for, but I was very impressed by the effect it had on her.
<Symmetre{t}> but that worked because the whole privacy thing pushed a button for her
<Symmetre{t}> having her sing "I'm A Little Teapot" for me privately is a lot simpler ... yet has the same effect
<BernieRoehl> So is anyone here dead-set against any form of humiliation?
<BernieRoehl> Apparently not
<ravenswolf> only the kind that does damage
<Fyre{j}> What about the limits people see on humiliation?
* too_willing{T} was just typing that same thought
<Fyre{j}> Damage in what way ..... emotional?
<Symmetre{t}> hard limits certainly do exist, and must be respected of course
<too_willing{T}> would have to be dependent on each person...
<Sweet1`> the kind that doesn't allow the sub some pleasure
<ravenswolf> emotional, mental - the nonconsentual kind
<Fyre{j}> can humilation be taken to the extreme of emational or mental abuse?
<ravenswolf> yes - you see it every day in domestic violence cases
<too_willing{T}> what about the consentuality of 3rd parties?
<Symmetre{t}> absolutely Fyre{j}
<BernieRoehl> I think one key question is whether the humiliation results in the submissive being better for having experienced it.
<Fyre{j}> but as an SSC community .. aren't we more in tune with those aspects
<too_willing{T}> if part of the humiliation scene is the observation of the action by a third party, does that 3rd party have to be in on the extent of the humiliation?
<Symmetre{t}> interesting question, too_willing{T}
<Fyre{j}> I would think if they are part of the scene they should know their role so to speak
<too_willing{T}> i am of course referring to lifestyle public play rather than vanilla play
<BernieRoehl> I think it depends on the situation, too_willing{T}
<Symmetre{t}> the whole episode with the butt plug wouldn;t have worked had her relatives knew what they were really doing
<too_willing{T}> in a previous instance, someone said that finally being made to tell another they were pantiless for humiliation, often when someone is being embarassed or himiliated ppl feel embarassed as well
<BernieRoehl> For example, having a submissive crawl around on all fours, offering to nuzzle the crotch of anyone who wants it nuzzled, does involve other people -- but they each individually have the right to "opt out" of participating.
<too_willing{T}> lol, well of course not Symmetre{t} *s*
<too_willing{T}> like the loud drunk at a bar - many would feel embarassed or least odd at the friends discomfort when trying to settle him down
<Symmetre{t}> lmao
<BernieRoehl> Of course, we can make the same observation about physical play -- some people may not feel comfortable watching someone get flogged or caned. And yet in scene-friendly situations, those things happen all the time.
<BernieRoehl> Smacking a submissive's bottom when she acts up may be embarrassing for her, but I doubt if anyone who object to that (again, in a scene-friendly environment)
* jewel`{F} has had her bottom swatted in MickeyD's parking lot
* BernieRoehl thinks jewel`{F} must have deserved it
<too_willing{T}> in a vanilla public environment which holds more sway? humiliation or consentuality with the 'nilla's around
<Fyre{j}> jewel` has had her butt swatted in quite a few parking lots
* Loneoakfs has smacked firestars butt in zellers
<Fyre{j}> besides the whip would have drawn a crowd
<Symmetre{t}> butts deserve swatting ... wherever
* BernieRoehl thinks firestar must definitely have deserved it!
<fiestyone> hmmmmmm this girl must just be very very good.never been smacked
* Loneoakfs nods ...
<lilmunchkin> me either in public
* too_willing{T} nods too
<Loneoakfs> she just dont know when to be quiet sometimes
<twilight_girl> :) gets smacked all the time
* firestar{LO} was in a snit and had major attitude that day
<fiestyone> this girl is the shy retiring sort....that may be why
<Loneoakfs> yeppers attitude ajustment required
* BernieRoehl smiles
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
* jewel`{F} is always good girl
<Fyre{j}> if they can put changing tables into the MacD's washrooms, why not spanking benches too?
<Symmetre{t}> humiliation rawks?
* Loneoakfs roflmao @jewel
* BernieRoehl smiles proudly at his ModBot
<twilight_girl> lol
* BernieRoehl agrees with Fyre{j}
<Fyre{j}> well if I can't spank jewel` perhaps I'll have to put her in diapers
* Symmetre{t} will be off to buy tori some footie pyjamas next week ...complete with trap door. Wonder if she will find that humiliating
<BernieRoehl> Maybe, if she has to try them on in the store
<Loneoakfs> only if you take her to dinner in them
<Symmetre{t}> gotta make sure they fit, Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Absolutely!
* Fyre{j} takes jewel` to the aisle with the Depends
<jewel`{F}> Master, since when "can't" You spank me?
<Fyre{j}> oh, you were talking to Symmetre{t}
<Symmetre{t}> the ones I found don;t actually have a trap door .. will have to go to a tailor to have that installed
<too_willing{T}> very interesting thoughts which still tweaks in my mind about the consentuality question...
<Symmetre{t}> lucky tailor, I figure
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Fyre{j}> there are some longjohns that still have 'em Symmetre{t} not very sexy looking but ..... well you know they do have trapdoors
<BernieRoehl> Where do you get them, Fyre{j}?
<too_willing{T}> wear it for dinner but have to sit on the chair with trap door down?
<Fyre{j}> Mark's Work WhoreHouse .. I men Warehouse
<jewel`{F}> i think You can get them at Novacks in London
<Symmetre{t}> these ones are adult footies, Fyre{j} ... white with cute lil sleepy bears on em. They have them at La Vie En Rose
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to BernieRoehl for moderating, and to everyone who participated.
<Symmetre{t}> any tailor can install a trap door
<Fyre{j}> standing ovation for ModBot