November 7 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<en{TW}> Thank you everyone for joining me tonight for the discussion!
<en{TW}> topic for tonight is "The Purpose and use of *rules* in bdsm"
<en{TW}> please try to keep the hi's and bye's in private etc...
<{autumn}_U_> hiya TimberWolf.....*hugz*
<en{TW}> *smile*
<`TimberWolf> yes en...sorry:)
<en{TW}> np TW :)
<`TimberWolf> :)
<en{TW}> to begin...i would like to know what you all feel the purpose of rules are within your relationship?
<en{TW}> anyone?
<`TimberWolf> hmmmmmm
<tru_s{Ach}> guidelines to begin with
<{autumn}_U_> hmmmmm i guess that depends.....rules based on my need for them....rules that establish the heirarchy so to speak.....guidelines and guidance....
<sweetslave{AF}> rules define the barriers or limits, parameters surrounding the relationship 
<`TimberWolf> well......we don't have play rules....just appropriate behavoiur rules
<{autumn}_U_> a need to feel structure and ownership.....
<en{TW}> i understand the structure 
<{autumn}_U_> thats a good way to put it sweetslave
<en{TW}> i should specify...we are talking about rules given by the Dom to the sub...or rules agreed upon by both...for the sub
<`TimberWolf> I guess what cal and I have are closer to....expectations
<`TimberWolf> I have never felt the need with her to lay down hard and fast rules
<en{TW}> i can understand that too TimberWolf
<{autumn}_U_> it's individual to each relationship i think en.....each set of rules having its own purpose
<{autumn}_U_> to the people who establish and follow them
<`TimberWolf> but would not be opposed to it if the requirement was there
<en{TW}> there is an element of common sense
<en{TW}> i have found in past relationships that some rules i found insulting
<en{TW}> like the Dom was questioning my ability to think 
<DukeDom> it's not required thaty the rules make sense
<Bugsy44> hi folks
<`TimberWolf> hmmmmmm thern why have them if they don't make sense DD?
<en{TW}> not always...but if too many rules don't make sense a sub must wonder....why
<TheWolfe> an example of a rule that doesn't make sense please DukeDom
<lyxanna> i just have a problem with rules that set me up to fail
<DukeDom> for the control of it
<en{TW}> perhaps for the purpose of maintaining control
* en{TW} smiles
<`TimberWolf> rules Maintian control??????
<tru_s{Ach}> communication and understanding are important as groundwork to making and setting rules i think...they only need to make sense to the direct people they involve
<{autumn}_U_> all the rules Master has established for me work towards my own personal growth in some way
<snuggle{FF}> evening A/all
<TheWolfe> through nonsensical means?
<`TimberWolf> or due nonsense rules mailtian the allusion of control?
<DukeDom> but if rules were never broken, there would be no reason to have them
<en{TW}> i think those types of rules must be used in moderation and with other rules that do have an obvious purpose...or the sub will become bitter about following them
<sweetslave{AF}> she would only become bitter is she makes that choice
<`TimberWolf> sorry all stiull not use to this new damn kb
<`TimberWolf> excuse the typing
<TheWolfe> are rules for learning or to be broken
<en{TW}> really think so?
<`TimberWolf> still either
<en{TW}> if someone tells me to do stupid things...and nothing else....then of course i would become bitter and not want to follow them
<`TimberWolf> obviously
<sweetslave{AF}> yes...we all have choices as to how we react to rules or our environment 
<DukeDom> so you have to understand the reason for a rule before following it en?
<en{TW}> not necessarily, although i do question them
<en{TW}> if the answer is...because i say so...i am fine with that
<`TimberWolf> I think any Dom would explian the rules before expecting a sub t5o follow it.......or what is she learning?
<lyxanna> i don't need to understand them, but i would like to know i could follow them
<DukeDom> I can understand questioning them in r/l ... but in bdsm play?
<{autumn}_U_> well....being told to do something once even if it doesn't make sense is alright but a rule.....a constant rule....if it was simply rediculous would make me feel the same en
<en{TW}> as long as my life isn't spent following all nonsensical rules
<`TimberWolf> hmmmm my rl is bdsm
<DukeDom> it would appear to me that you have something specific in mind en
<en{TW}> rules are discussed outside of an active scene
<tru_s{Ach}> the most important rule that many tend to overlook, take advantage of or common sense
<en{TW}> but TW is always my i am questioning Him as His sub
<TheWolfe> and encouraged to do so
<{autumn}_U_> and it's healthy i think and promotes communication and growth
<DukeDom> but you must be open to what others define as their bdsm
<`TimberWolf> I think atleast for us a rule would only be laid out if an expectation was not being met......therefore cal would know exactly why I was "enforcing" a rule
<`TimberWolf> this is true DD
<en{TW}> there are *orders* if i may use that term ;) that may be given during a scene....that i would follow, not question...but as autumn said...if it is something i am to follow repeatedly then i do question
<en{TW}> agreed DD
<en{TW}> DukeDom, would You care to give an example of a non-sensical rule You use/have used?
<`TimberWolf> but rules for the sake of having rules...or to give the Dom a false sense of control are childish
<TheWolfe> I think it is also good to be open to other forms of bdsm & to question them also
<DukeDom> so ... if your partner doesn't like red ... is that a good enough reason for being told not to wear it? ... who decides whether a rule is valid?
<katiias> me
<en{TW}> oh good point TimberWolf...i'd like to get back to that in a moment
<en{TW}> both individuals
<en{TW}> i feel the rule should have at least a purpose to the His mind
<DukeDom> I don't have many hard and fast rules ... I have guidelines which I would expect to be consulted on before they are not followed
<en{TW}> often Doms use rules they have heard about from others ...use them just because they exsist
<DukeDom> but my point is ... I know others have rules which would appear to me to have no logical reasoning ... and I don't mind that
<en{TW}> oh i have no problem with that either
<en{TW}> absolutely none
<LrdTZ> I have my own set of rules that I insist be followed but these rules have been agreed abone before they are enforced.
<en{TW}> TimberWolf...a question about Your last comment....
<`TimberWolf> true with no agreement.......then there is no submission
<`TimberWolf> shoot
<`TimberWolf> en:)
<en{TW}> You mentioned rules just for the sake of the Dom having a false sense of control....
<`TimberWolf> yes........\/
<`TimberWolf> ?
<en{TW}> what is the true control?
<`TimberWolf> true control is an allusion of infitile egomanics
<TheWolfe> lol
<`TimberWolf> in my humble opinion
<TheWolfe> agreed TimberWolf
<`TimberWolf> but submission
<en{TW}> so isn't everything in bdsm false...and if so...then a purpose in rules for the sake of giving the illusion of control?
* lyxanna snickers
<en{TW}> so we can enjoy it
<`TimberWolf> and the control that is bestowed upon a master by his sub is a gift and is a totally different animal
<LrdTZ> Rules for me give the submissive goals to reach.
<{autumn}_U_> all my rules are goal oriented
<en{TW}> well i have recently realized that having more rules might allow me to have a sense of lack of that valid?
<{autumn}_U_> they all have purpose and are given with an explanation
<en{TW}> especially in a life that includes outside elements?
<lyxanna> very valid en....
<LrdTZ> As are mine. for the betterment of the sub and the relationship.
<lyxanna> especially if it is something you are needing and asking for
<lyxanna> that in itself makes it valid
<lyxanna> just like for me, agreeing with some rules, even when i am uncollared, is a way to help me feel,  more myself
<`TimberWolf> cal submits to me and behaves accordingly because she desires to......she has given me control over our make decissions etc...cause she trust me and desires it
<en{TW}> ok, to move onto purpose in more detail....would a DOm here please give us an example of a rule S/He uses?
<DukeDom> but couldn't rules be added or taken away for pure pleasure ... to keep a relationship from going stagnent ... to create some new spark
<LrdTZ> I do not allow profanity.
<en{TW}> i think so DukeDom
<en{TW}> and why is that LrdTZ?
<en{TW}> (i am not trying to give an opportunity to judge these rules...just to understand)
<`TimberWolf> ok that a rule or an expectation?
<en{TW}> rules might be seperated from expectations through the use of punishment (whatever sort that is for the couple)
<LrdTZ> I do not believe that a person has to swear to get a point across. I have one word that I hate to hear and enforce it. Its a rule for the sub to follow and there are consensquese if they don't follow it.
<`TimberWolf> hmmmmmm
<`TimberWolf> no exceptions?????
<DukeDom> I will not allow one of my subs to wear slacks or jeans ... unless she gets my prior approval
<en{TW}> so consequences follow broken rules...whereas disappointment without a "close" follows a broken expectaytion
<en{TW}> perhaps
<LrdTZ> No exceptions. why should anyone need to use the "f" word. 
<`TimberWolf> see to me a rule is hard and fast.....absolutely no exceptions......with or without approval
<`TimberWolf> then I would have to agree that is a rule for LT
<en{TW}> if it is agreed upon, then there can be exceptions if discussed and agreed
<LrdTZ> if the rule has been agreed upon then there are no exceptions. and to change a rule needs approval.
<lyxanna> what if exceptions were agreed apon at the time of making the rules
<en{TW}> then it is still a rule
<`TimberWolf> see expectations change or can be changed as the circumstances change....but a rule should never be bent
<en{TW}> that is how laws work
<`TimberWolf> in my opinion
<`TimberWolf> and en I think to even a greater sense than Laws
<en{TW}> i disagree...with my kids, theier are rules...on occasion i allow the rule to be bent or changed with explaination and approval
<`TimberWolf> to me Laws are expectations we place on ourselves as a group
<LrdTZ> rules are made to be bent but never broken.
<en{TW}> bedtime is 8...but on fri they can stay up til 10
<`TimberWolf> well I can't comment there I haver never had a child
<lyxanna> TimberWolf, what is an example of one of your rules?
<en{TW}> if on thursday my son wants to watch the special on tv...then i may allow him to
<`TimberWolf> but for me if I ever needed to lay down a rule.....she sure as hell better never break it.....or she should look for a new residense
<en{TW}> but the besic rule is still...bedtime at 8
<`TimberWolf> ly I don't have rules..have never needed to
<{autumn}_U_> thats pretty harsh TimberWolf.....
<{autumn}_U_> a new residense?
<{autumn}_U_> yikes
<MasterHawk> Sucks when the power goes out
<`TimberWolf> yes it is autumn....but she has never given me a reason to "have" a rule and I doubt she would
<en{TW}> i think TimberWolf is perhaps not all that different than those who have "rules" just different term
<en{TW}> maybe
<`TimberWolf> perhaps
* {autumn}_U_ nods
<lyxanna> yeah, i can see that
<`TimberWolf> cal knows what I expect........
<en{TW}> please give us one of Your expectations
<`TimberWolf> and my expectations are flexable
<LrdTZ> TW do you have expections your sub has to follow.
<`TimberWolf> yes I do
<sweetslave{AF}> but it is the rule that the Dom sets down and is relayed to the sub...she knows exactly what the ramifications are for her actions in breaking the rules...her choice
<{autumn}_U_> I have forgotten rule in particular....i have been punished for it.....but never would he take it to that extreme i dont think.....
<en{TW}> i think the issue here is simply the use of the term "rule"
<`TimberWolf> flexable to some extent
<`TimberWolf> I would only ever inforce a rule if she totally and continually disreguard my expectations
<en{TW}> TimberWolf, i assume then theat You do not punish?
<MasterHawk> Hi april^^
<`TimberWolf> no I do punish
<en{TW}> how do You decide what is punishable?
<`TimberWolf> if an expectation is not met...and she has no valid reason
<en{TW}> we are talking about the same thing i think
<`TimberWolf> I decide based on how I feel
* canplay thinks expectations,rules and laws are entirely different issues
<{autumn}_U_> i've been asked right out if i felt i should be punished for something....
<`TimberWolf> perhaps
<`TimberWolf> but for me a rule will never be broken
<en{TW}> ok, fair enough
<Lotta_Skull> sometimes that part of the punishment too let the submissive answer for her actions
<april^^> waves to MasterHawk sits and listens curled up beside LS *smiles*
<MasterHawk> *S*
<en{TW}> are there any Doms here who have practical rules or expectations that they insist upon within any relationship?
<{autumn}_U_> and it works Lotta_Skull.....just being reminded that i forgot something and being asked what my punishment should be is a killer
* en{TW} giggles at autumns reference to "forgeting something"
<{autumn}_U_> well i did.....hehe
<`TimberWolf> see en it is really has asked me to teach..and guide her......and to love respect and cherish her....and she has agreed to submit to my wishes.........the day she decides she no longer wants this arrange ment she is free to leave
<en{TW}> <----always getting in trouble for forgetting stuff
<april^^> ohh  yes autumn  it works all to well *bats lashes at Master*
<{autumn}_U_> lol..indeed it does april
<Lotta_Skull> yea I do pplenty that apply to all My relationships ...
<en{TW}> i understand 
<`TimberWolf> :)
<Lotta_Skull> like no lies if you have a problem with ME talk to ME first ...
<`TimberWolf> practical expectations.........effort...communication.....these are practical I think
<en{TW}> yes they are
<{autumn}_U_> i agree
<Lotta_Skull> all examples of honest comunication ..
<`TimberWolf> honesty.....desire to learn and grow......
<`TimberWolf> aggreed LS
<{autumn}_U_> my basic rules are just those....the "foundation rules".....fearless honesty, communication....talking about things even if they are difficult.....
<{autumn}_U_> he'd know anyway, i read like a book when my thoughts are going crazy
<`TimberWolf> sound like a very solid foundation autumn
<en{TW}> yes it does
* `TimberWolf smiles
<Lotta_Skull> and honesty sometimes hurts until you learn too only do what feels comfortable for all
<`TimberWolf> when cal is upset I usually know why before she does
<en{TW}> are there expectations or rules which any of you (doms or subs of doms who) use strictly for your own sadistic pleasures?
<en{TW}> i think that is common in most loving relationships TimberWolf
<`TimberWolf> lets hope so en:))))
<en{TW}> an outside person who knows us well enough when we are too confused to realize
<Lotta_Skull> hehe well there's the rules of the pool table and the paddle in MY Dungeon ....grinz
<Blu^Dragon34> Nice foundation rules autumn...smiles,....Great solid base
<{autumn}_U_> honesty is about being able to accept it though not just receive it and sometimes that in itself is difficult
<april^^> sucks a playin pool too!!
<`TimberWolf> and yes some of my expectations are simply for my sadistic pleasure:))))
<{autumn}_U_> yes they are Blu.....and i firmly believe that without that foundation you can't build the house so to speak
<`TimberWolf> so true autumn....very well spoken
<{autumn}_U_> *smile*
<Lotta_Skull> agree's with autumn very important ....
<`TimberWolf> both points
<en{TW}> a question to the submissives....are there any rules put to you that you disagreed with?
<{autumn}_U_> i don't know that i really dissagreed with them so much as i did question their purpose at first.....
* sweetslave{AF} agree's with autumn
<en{TW}> and after understanding them....were agreeable?
<`TimberWolf> for example autumn..if you don't mind sharing????
<april^^> none that i can think of 
<{autumn}_U_> but looking at the picture of our relationship and where it is going as a whole entity defined them for me
<{autumn}_U_> workbook....i have a journal which i submit daily and a separate workbook
<{autumn}_U_> my workbook is filled with my challenges and was his idea and i loved it.....
<`TimberWolf> :)
<{autumn}_U_> but at first.....
<april^^> sounds very  organized autumn ...smiles
<{autumn}_U_> some of the things i had to do were hard and i questioned them
<{autumn}_U_> but looking at it as a whole ......and in my own growth and progression things i questioned became clear
<`TimberWolf> :))))))))))))))))
<en{TW}> yes, often on a day to day basis we have trouble seeing the purpose...too far away
<{autumn}_U_> exactly
<en{TW}> have any submissives requested a certain rule or rules?
<{autumn}_U_> i dont always see the purpose at first.....but i trust and believe in him
<{autumn}_U_> yes
<`TimberWolf> hmmmmmm is short sightness a required sub trait?
<`TimberWolf> :)))))))
<{autumn}_U_> i felt permission needed to be worked some ways i felt too much freedom and asked him to tighten the reigns a little en
<en{TW}> i understand
<TheWolfe> I'm sure some Doms would prefer it Timber
<Lotta_Skull> goes with impatience TW...*S*
<en{TW}> so back to the purpose of rules being to estabish level of control or submission
<en{TW}> do most of you use the "permission to orgasm" rule?
<en{TW}> and if so...why?
<Lotta_Skull> control which in turn developes submission...
<{autumn}_U_> for me it's that simple......the rules allow me to feel his control through stucture and consistancy.....i need that.....he provides it.....the degree or level is always progressing but not before I am ready or we are ready as a couple
<en{TW}> (i find this commonly used rule interesting)
<en{TW}> so some rules can be scapped and others added as it fits with the development of the relationship
<en{TW}> scrapped
<{autumn}_U_> i think so
<{autumn}_U_> a rule that satisfies us both in some way today might wear thin or not be needed later
* `TimberWolf shivers
<en{TW}> lol...what are You shivering about TimberWolf?
<{autumn}_U_> we discuss and adjust some things but never the foundation rules and we have a structure sort of ummmmm like a heirarchy of importance on some things
<en{TW}> definately autumn
<`TimberWolf> I should go to bed......but have one quick question...if rules can be you all have anything that is constant and unyielding....and if so what do you call them?
<{autumn}_U_> foundation rules
<en{TW}> i have a few
<{autumn}_U_> the ones that never change or never will be compromised
<`TimberWolf> thankyou autumn
<en{TW}> lol...for my Master
<en{TW}> or for anyone
<{autumn}_U_> welcome....*smile*
<en{TW}> not rules
* sweetslave{AF} thinks foundation rules are necessary
<en{TW}> just....respect issues
<en{TW}> like...don't screw around on me
<en{TW}> never harm me puposefully
<en{TW}> etc...
* {autumn}_U_ nods
<`TimberWolf> definitions very are right.......but I think basically we are feel the same
<`TimberWolf> so these foundation rules
<en{TW}> i think so *smile*
<{autumn}_U_> respect , rules, consideration, communication, fearless honesty.....all foundation rules
<`TimberWolf> breaking them cause a breakdown and collapse of the relationship?
<{autumn}_U_> yes 
<TheWolfe> foundation rules that apply to both
<sweetslave{AF}> yes
<`TimberWolf> ok thank you:)
<`TimberWolf> that clears things up considerably
<en{TW}> yes
<{autumn}_U_> i don't see how a relationship can progress and move forward without them
<`TimberWolf> and on tha note....good night all...Keep the Faith!
<{autumn}_U_> nite TW....*smile*
<en{TW}> goodnight 
<`TimberWolf> and thanks:)
<en{TW}> anyone have anything to offer in regards to the permission to hae an orgasm rule?
<april^^> night  TW *smiles*
<{autumn}_U_> it does seem to be the most basic
<{autumn}_U_> and most common one
<`TimberWolf> sorry for breaking your "goodnights in private please"
<`TimberWolf>  rule en:)))))))))))))))
<en{TW}> lol TimberWolf
<{autumn}_U_> i've read a bazillion reasons for it en
<`TimberWolf> LOL
<en{TW}> we'll discuss Your punishment after You leave ;)
<TheWolfe> lol
<{autumn}_U_> lol
<en{TW}> is that rule in palce in your realtionship?
<{autumn}_U_> depends.....the rule is that if I cant reach him to get permission i have to tell him of it in great detail or do it for him again later
<en{TW}> btw...the discussion is technically done but we're still talking so....disregard that fact
<{autumn}_U_> so it's flexible
<{autumn}_U_> its not high on the list of importance
<en{TW}> do you know His purpose for it? is it the control aspect?
<{autumn}_U_> i've asked him that......
<{autumn}_U_> he doesn't feel a sense of control so much out of my physical self as he does of my mind if you know what i mean
<en{TW}> yes i do
<en{TW}> permission is often about the psychological
<{autumn}_U_> so if i was like pavlovs subbie and he said the word and i endured a thrashing orgasm because he said it that would be the ultimate psychological
<en{TW}> (i do not beleive in this urban bdsm myth you mention;)
<{autumn}_U_>'s the permission that gives him a sense of control more than the act itself
<en{TW}> yes
<en{TW}> exactly
<TheWolfe> for Me it is about humiliation, control, & knowing when to hit that special spot with the cane
* en{TW} smiles
<{autumn}_U_> i find the whole humiliation aspect interesting
<en{TW}> so do i autumn
<{autumn}_U_> i dont feel the same as others about that i think
<{autumn}_U_> i dont feel a need for it or a desire like some seem to crave it
<en{TW}> well since the discussion is over...pls tell us how you feel about humiliation
<{autumn}_U_> hmmmmmmmm
<{autumn}_U_> its most blunt form
<en{TW}> *smile* my favourite
<MasterHawk> BBL
<shimmer``> hi folks :)
<{autumn}_U_> if i was told to lay on the floor wearing only a collar and masturbate for him no holds barred thrashing around.....i dont see that as humiliating
<en{TW}> hello shimmer
<{autumn}_U_> hiya shimmer
<sweetslave{AF}> hi shimmer
<en{TW}> for you it is not then
<{autumn}_U_> nope
<shimmer``> heya en :))
<shimmer``> autumn :)) 
<shimmer``> hiya sweetslave :)
<en{TW}> for some it would be...if they have an issue with masturbating in front of another
<{autumn}_U_> he gains pleasure in that and in his pleasure i have mine 
<{autumn}_U_> but
<en{TW}> yes, which is the pleasure of humiliation
<{autumn}_U_> to some that would be humiliating and they would feel it
<{autumn}_U_> i just dont feel humiliated by it
<en{TW}> i don't either
<{autumn}_U_> call me a dirty little cum slut or something and thats different though en....that i find humiliating.....some of the verbal stuff really gets me
<en{TW}> i think it is simply level of comfort
* bottoms_up2 returns... helloooooo all ;)
<en{TW}> we all have things that are difficult
<shimmer``> heya bottoms :)
<bottoms_up2> heya shimmer ;))
<{autumn}_U_> if he ball gagged me had me act like a swine and crawl around sqeualing that would be humiliating to me
<en{TW}> for us
<en{TW}> and if He found pleasure in that...would you?
<{autumn}_U_> not in that i wouldn't....things like that i find ugly and they sting for some reason
<en{TW}> i understand
<{autumn}_U_> to me there is great beauty in the body and submission of it......but then there are some ugly things i dont handle well
<TheWolfe> degradation
<{autumn}_U_> i think thats it TW
<{autumn}_U_> i think its degredation i have such a hard time with
<en{TW}> yes
<en{TW}> but the thing is...we all define the line between degradation and humiliation very differently
* shimmer`` listens with interest
<TheWolfe> but we all have our own views on what is degrading or humiliating
<{autumn}_U_> yes we do.....
<TheWolfe> and they can change
<{autumn}_U_> and thank god Master isn't into
<en{TW}> some would consider being called slut as enjoyably humiliating...some crass degradation
<{autumn}_U_> and if he was it would be something he would move pretty slow with
<TheWolfe> perhaps he is autumn
<{autumn}_U_> you might be right TW
<{autumn}_U_> but he takes me through the difficult stuff good and slow one step at a time
<TheWolfe> perhaps he percieves you masturbating on the floor as an act of degradation
<{autumn}_U_> good point
<TheWolfe> but you see it as acceptable
<en{TW}> the act of submission itself is percieved as degrading to vanillas
<{autumn}_U_> yes......but change adding the ball gag and having me squeal and i would have an EXTREMELY hard time with it
<canplay> good point en
<{autumn}_U_> i poor vanilla friends would have cardiac arrest if i whispered the words let alone discussed the act
<bottoms_up{RD}> wb Kirspin ;)
<en{TW}> lol
<Kirspin> Back again for a bit
* shimmer`` grins at autumn
<shimmer``> hi Kirspin Sir
<{autumn}_U_> hiya shimmer......*smile*....
<{autumn}_U_> lol
* bottoms_up{RD} chuckles.. my friends and family know of my activities.. they mostly only worry about my safety..they are used to me being "strange" ;)
<Kirspin> Hi shimmer
<{autumn}_U_> my family and my boss know of my lifestyle but they took the time to learn and understand 
<{autumn}_U_> its not for them but they dont judge
<bottoms_up{RD}> THATS the important part, autumn ;)
<en{TW}> thanks everyone who stayed and participated/listened!
<{autumn}_U_> exactly bottoms
<{autumn}_U_> it was a great topic en
<{autumn}_U_> *smile*
<en{TW}> thank you :)
<TheWolfe> en, you were mahhhhvellous
* bottoms_up{RD} pouts... i missed alot of it
<{autumn}_U_> lol....yep she was
* en{TW} kisses Master
<en{TW}> Thank You Sir!
<TheWolfe> the usual congrulatory troop don't seem to be here
<en{TW}> lol
[shimmer`` SOUND]
<{autumn}_U_> i know ...what happened to Bernie and everyone?
<TheWolfe> congratulatory
<{autumn}_U_> and where have you been shimmer girl?????
<{autumn}_U_> lol
<sweetslave{AF}> great discussion en
<Kirspin> Yes congratulations en, its hard to do any of these dubject but you seem to have a great knack