November 3, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Feminization". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Lady_Meadows> any one have a suggestion for some sort of first play ritual?
<Lady_Meadows> opps forgot about the discussion!
<Lady_Meadows> so now are we just waiting for someone to start?
<kierana> lol it looks like it
<Lady_Meadows> ok I have a question are we discussing forced feminization or just men who like to be feminized?
<`abi> I think without a moderator, the discussion is free to go in either or both directions Lady_Meadows
<`abi> do you have any thoughts about either?
<Sir_StephenS> forced feminization? *yikes
<Lady_Meadows> in that case I would like to ask about those who like to be this point I just don't get it yet I want to know what it does for you?
* dalian is off to bed to nurse a cold
<Lady_Meadows> k lets start here, anyone here have any experiance in feminization?
<`abi> dunno...I was sort of born that way, although I still have trouble with the whole frilly dress thing
<becky{M}> lol abi
<Lady_Meadows> I had a sub who wanted to get into it...
<kierana> lol do i
<becky{M}> i was born that way too ...
<Lady_Meadows> he wanted to be sent shopping for pink panties
<Lady_Meadows> at first I didn't understand why
<Lady_Meadows> but then when he told me how it made him nervous to shop for them I sort of understood
<`abi> so what do you understand about it now Lady_Meadows?
<Lady_Meadows> well only that he enjoyed the nervousness of being found out at work
<Lady_Meadows> and that sence of adventure turned him on
<Lady_Meadows> he had bought women panties inthe past
<Lady_Meadows> but never for himself
<Lady_Meadows> so I understand the fear...but for some its a turn on and I just don't get it
<`abi> do you think it makes him feel feminine?
<Lady_Meadows> well thats what I Want to know
<Lady_Meadows> I like my men men
<Lady_Meadows> yet many I have met want to be dressed as women so I want to know what that means
<`abi> and are the ones you have met who want to be dressed as women 'men men'?
<Lady_Meadows> they may be...but I can't look at them that way, it turns me off
<Lady_Meadows> so I really want to understand it better
<Lady_Meadows> I could be missing out on a lot of good boys!
<Sweet1`> is understanding it better going to change how you view them?
<Lady_Meadows> it might...
<Lady_Meadows> I didn't like some of the chaps men wear in the past...
<Lady_Meadows> till I realized how convienent it was to flog and spank!
<Lady_Meadows> now they seem to look better to me
<Lady_Meadows> gee perhaps we need a new topic LOL
<`abi> well, we could mutiny, kick the bot and change the topic
<Lady_Meadows> I'm all for that!
<littleminx^> what's the topic?
<Lady_Meadows> someone pin the bot!
* Lady_Meadows hands `abi the electrical tape!
<Lady_Meadows> it's suppose to be feminization littleminx^ any thoughts?
<jewel`{F}> i would have thought that a lot of the male subs would have been in for this one
<Lady_Meadows> or for that matter does anyone have any comments to make on the topic of Feminization?
<Lady_Meadows> going once...
<littleminx^> hmm. i don't wear pants.. and my favourite colour is pink. Not sure i'd be helpful here.
<Lady_Meadows> going twice...
<Lady_Meadows> gone!
<`TimberWolf> lol
* Lady_Meadows opens the floor to a new topic any suggestions
<`abi> well, why don't we go back to your original question, just before the bot arrived Lady_Meadows
<`TimberWolf> can I say hello to everyone if Lady_Meadows is searching for topics
<`TimberWolf> ??
<Lady_Meadows> oh yes any suggestions on first play rituals?
<yummy> lots of negotiation Lady_Meadows
<`TimberWolf> m good question
<Lady_Meadows> oh yes but I mean once all that is done...
<yummy> or i guess you could call it "getting to know you discussion"
<Lady_Meadows> if it is someone special you want to make it a special start
<yummy> it might be someone special it might not
<`TimberWolf> if they aren't special why are you with them?
<Lady_Meadows> grrrr your missing the point!
<`TimberWolf> grrrr I do that:)
<yummy> `TimberWolf - casual play......they might be someone i like but not that special someone
<Lady_Meadows> you've never just played `TimberWolf?
<`abi> so you're asking how to make a first time play session special Lady_Meadows?
<Lady_Meadows> yes thank you `abi
<jewel`{F}> i know for me i couln't play with someone that i didn't have some sort of relationship built up with them first
<yummy> my nerves are tense enough... first time plays are the hardest I find
<`abi> so, is there a ritual that would help relax the nerves yummy?
<`TimberWolf> yes but I like to think...whether it is casual or not...the person must be special...or why would I decide to spend my time with them,,,,even casually
<yummy> yeah getting the first play done and moving to the second one
<`TimberWolf> lol yummy
<Lady_Meadows> lol @ yummy
<Sir_StephenS> lol
<yummy> it can be worth it, but the start of it is normally one of the tenser times......the good part is finding out my instincts were right and that the person is good to play with
<Cliffy> hi everyone
<ravenswolf> aren't first times special by their very definition - that special tension, anxiety, anticipation will never quiet be the same again
<`abi> Lady_Meadows ... do you think you would like it to be something that you did that was specific to that person ... or a ritual that is for you and you might use with other partners as well?
<Lady_Meadows> no something specific to that person
<yummy> what i find hard with ritual is that normally it evolves between two people....i don't think you find it there on day one
<Lady_Meadows> just some sort of indication that this is the first step...of many
<janizz-lurking> may i ask what the topic is?
<`TimberWolf> yes yummy but a ritual...could be something that you always do...regardless of who you are with
<yummy> that is normally the comforting chat during aftercare Lady_Meadows
<jewel`{F}> as simple as going potty first
<yummy> does listening to my heart beat hard count
<yummy> oh that one i do -- its called being practical
<Lady_Meadows> oo actually that could be good
<`abi> okay..let me ask this Lady_Meadows ... what are you hoping to achieve with the ritual?
<jewel`{F}> janizz-lurking the topic was femminization but no one was talking
<janizz-lurking> then...i will say..i love rituals!!!....some at least
<Achilles{tr}> So, LM... You want suggestions for special first time rituals to do for each new person on their first scene which can be specially devised for each person?
<janizz-lurking> the one of leaving my "citizen" the one of submissive.
<Lady_Meadows> yes Achilles{tr}
<Achilles{tr}> ..or a ritual which can be used the first time to help in understanding what a new person will require in the longer term to adjust scenes to their interestes/wants/needs?
<janizz-lurking> i was given a word... that meant...janizz prepare...
<Lady_Meadows> I don't want to just get started, but the person may not be collared to me, so the ones I have heard don't apply very well
<janizz-lurking> first time rituals????? can that be?????
<Lady_Meadows> no not that Achilles{tr}
<yummy> what about how you start the play...with soft touches ... or with a special flogger
<Sir_StephenS> I would do the "just ask\just tell" routine when dealing with a relative stranger, in order to build up a comfort level
<yummy> i find the before play chat to be a ritual of sorts
<janizz-lurking> rituals?...something that is done everytime...Ttwo meet...correct?
<Lady_Meadows> thank you yummy you are getting the picture, but I want more
<`abi> I think Lady_Meadows is talking about laying the groundwork for a ritual which can develop
<yummy> but it is a first time play ritual .. not an ongoing one with a particular person.. you shouldn't need to have it twice (if i need to have it twice i'm not playing with that person the second time)
<Lady_Meadows> yes correct `abi
<janizz-lurking> ahhh..thank abi
<yummy> so Lady_Meadows, it might be how you start to play...its your ritual not the subs
<abitbent> hmm..... protocol basics so to speak
<yummy> as its more for you than for them
<`abi> yes, I think yummy is right .. you have to do something that is for you ... and then let it develop individually with the person(s) you play with ... so it will morph a little differently with each
<Lady_Meadows> hmm ok I like taht
<Lady_Meadows> that
<yummy> the sub would have their own.......and if you played more together they would morph as abi says
<jewel`{F}> something that can be done very sensually is a thorough study of the subs body, checking for cuts and bruises and getting to know the persons body before you start to play so you know the condition of it
* Lady_Meadows listens to the suggestions as they start to come together
<shadoe{S}> it might be more wise to inspect the mind first
<Sweet1`> an inspection...nekkid sub legs spread
<yummy> Lady_Meadows, i guess you would have to see what centres you and brings you in the mindset to play and explore the sub
<Sir_StephenS> I think what janizz-lurking said, about a procees or ritual for leaving her 'citizen status", rings true...something to get the ball rolling in the right direction
<`abi> what kinds of rituals do people have for the beginnings of scenes?
<abitbent> as a sub playing for the first time... i think it's important to keep a clean slate for rituals.... subs bringing rituals to the play wouldn't really be the Tops personal rituals then would they..
<`abi> no, but it can be helpful for a Dom/me to know what kinds of things help to centre a particular submissive abitbent ... that can be part of the negotiation of a scene
<Lady_Meadows> good point `abi
<Lady_Meadows> I would certainly want to know that
<abitbent> true enough abi... helpful things... prolly discussed before at length...
<Sir_StephenS> are we talking about 2 people who have already agreed to play, or 2 people checking each other out to decide whether to play? the two are quite different
<Achilles{tr}> Would this be something for a play party or for a first private scene?
<Lady_Meadows> people who have already established a relationship and agreed to play Sir_StephenS
<yummy> Lady_Meadows, you might want to make the discussion part of the ritual, yes its a bit boring and artificial, but before a frist time play its crucial...what if they want sensation and you want to practise your killer cane techniques
<Lady_Meadows> a private scene Achilles{tr}
<`abi> do you think it would be significantly different Achilles{tr}?
<pretti_n_kink> i wonder if a discussion of this kind of depth is really possible for first time play... unless of course it has been between two that have already formed some kind of friendship
<`abi> well, I think that's what the idea of 'evolution of a ritual' is all about pretti_n_kink ... it doesn't have to be something deep and intense from the start
<pretti_n_kink> if i have to *explain* what would be helpful to put me in a mindset for play... well... chances are it is not going to get me there
<Achilles{tr}> A first scene from an already established relationship which is evolving into play and starts in a private scene?
<abitbent> i'm not sure how it is for other subs.. but rituals are a part of D/s that i find immensely exciting.
* jewel`{F} smiles in agreement with abitbent
<yummy> well pretti_n_kink, you have to talk about it at some point ... be it 3 minutes before you start to play or three days...its all part of the same thing... communication
<Sir_StephenS> I think you want to be careful about limiting communication, pretti_n_kink
<pretti_n_kink> i do as well abitbent... but they are most likely formed over time... to the interest of both parties
<abitbent> for sure pretti_n_kink... i'd think that first time rituals would be previously discussed... and fun to watch a sub forget them.. lol
<Achilles{tr}> If there is already a relationship then that should provide good groundwork to use imagination to establish a starting ceremony or ritual.
<pretti_n_kink> perhaps yummy i am thinking of it in terms of not playing with someone who does not already know quite a bit about me
<Achilles{tr}> Look to what you already know about them and build something which is derived from that knowledge.
<yummy> well at some point you still have to communicate your likes...its the time period that it is done over that differs
<`abi> and I think that's possible, even if you don't know a whole lot ... assuming you have some imagination
* Lady_Meadows smiles at Achilles{tr} in appreciation for his input
<Achilles{tr}> Example: You know they like chocolate. Ritual: They must bring a fine chocolate to You before any scene and feed it to you in some detailed ceremony.
<Sir_StephenS> great example, Achilles{tr}...something small, but symbolic
<Achilles{tr}> Example: They are afraid of knives. Ritual: They must present you with a knife in a prescribed manner and show their trust that You are aware of their fear and will not use it on them.
<abitbent> i suppose you'll find that Tops will change the rituals as time goes on... perhaps to make it more fun for them, or the sub.
* pretti_n_kink swallows... HARD
<yummy> well a ritual needs to work for one or both or why have it?
<Achilles{tr}> Do these help LM?
<Lady_Meadows> yes Achilles{tr} it does thank you
<abitbent> D/s in general needs to work for both i think yummy...
<Achilles{tr}> You're welcome LM. A lot of what We do is imagination. never be afraid to let Your loose. Your partners will appreciate Your efforts.
<abitbent> anyone have favourite rituals?
<shadoe{S}> sigh.. not staying on line well tonight
* Lady_Meadows grabs shadoe{S} and uses the electrical tape to keep him on line
<Lady_Meadows> : )
<Achilles{tr}> I make heavy use of rituals abitbent but to say any single one is a favourite would be difficult. They evolve over time and some even drift into disuse if they nolonger seem appropriate.
<abitbent> are they as exciting for you and they are for your submissive.. or are some one sided?
<shadoe{S}> her lol
* shadoe{S} has girl bits
<shadoe{S}> and thank you Lady Meadows
<pretti_n_kink> personally i think the only ones that last are those that both enjoy
<Achilles{tr}> Yes indeed. shadoe{S} has definite girl bits.
<shadoe{S}> :-)
<`abi> I think that is part of the evolution ... the ones that evolve and remain are the ones that are meaningful to both
* Lady_Meadows nods
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Achilles{tr}> I would say the overall pattern of rituals is one W/we both enjoy equally but there are some which I derive more pleasure from and some she enjoys more.
<shadoe{S}> considering how many times i've been bumped.. i'm not really clear on anything lol
<abitbent> yes... the modbot is neat.. but i like real Bernie better than virtual Bernie..
<abitbent> :o)
* Achilles{tr} slaps ModBot around a bit with a large trout
<Lady_Meadows> `abi I thought you took care of getting rid of the bot LOL
<`abi> it's way easier to Top the fake ones though abitbent ... that ole bot didn't even put up a fight when we changed the topic
<abitbent> lo
<abitbent> loud even
<Achilles{tr}> An example of an evolved ceremony would be how W/we start our scenes. It started out very simply and is now a series of about a dozen moves which are repeated at the front of each scene... but slighlty changed for each event.
<shadoe{S}> what was the original topic?
<Lady_Meadows> Feminization
<`abi> we digressed a tad shadoe
<Lady_Meadows> ah yes I saw that Achilles{tr}'s quite lovely
<Achilles{tr}> I did an introductory first scene for someone at a party where I let them hold an overhead bar, close their eyes and listen to My voice for about 10 minutes.
<Achilles{tr}> It never became a ceremony for them but.. it was appropriate to what they needed.
<abitbent> first time play is suck a whirlwind of activity for a sub... it's amazing rituals even get remembered from previous discussion.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<abitbent> such even