October 31 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> Our topic tonight is "A Discussion of Subspace" Please feel free to join in, but kindly refrain from Walton-style hi-byes until the discussion ends at 10 pm. Hebron is the recommended server to avoid lag. Be advised that our discussions are logged for posting to the ebhc website. If you wish to remain anonymous, please change your nick before joining the discussion.

<`abi> that's the official disclaimer...welcome to our discussion-time everyone

<`abi> I'd like to start tonight's discussion by talking a bit about what the term "subspace" means to different people

<`abi> we're not trying to find a global definition...I'm more interested in how different people view the concept

<`abi> soooo...anyone ever been there?

<KarenD> I have `abi

<`abi> can you describe it for us Karen?

<KarenD> for me....it's a place of ...my focus narrows....there is only me and Him...

<KarenD> there's an almost literal sense of dropping..

<`abi> so, there is a change in your awareness of your surroundings?

<KarenD> it feels like going inside myself but what it really is is everything outside of that focus falling away...

* KarenD nods 'I become aware of only Him, and whatever sensations are present'

<`abi> does anything change about the way you experience things physically?

* KarenD nods 'sometimes....it's hard to predict..sometimes the sensations become more...well, *more*

<`abi> does anyone else experience "subspace" in a different way?

<shimmer``> sorry, i missed which way that was ;)

<`abi> well, how do you experience it shimmer?

<shimmer``> wow, big parade just started here

<shimmer``> sorry

<shimmer``> i think it depends, abi ... on who i'm with, and what the connection is

<`abi> so it's different with different people?

<`abi> can you describe how it's different?

<shimmer``> well, the intensity is different, so that causes different things to happen ... with One i trust, i sink deeper ... and faster

* KarenD nods 'oh definitely.....there's different levels within the space, depending on the depth of connection and that varies with each partner'

* priceless^one asks if there is no connection is subspace possible to attain?

<shimmer``> not that i scene with people i don't trust - i meant a level of trust

<shimmer``> not to me, priceless. i need the connection in order to let go

<`abi> good question priceless^one ... has anyone ever experienced it without a Dominant being there at all?

<shimmer``> not subspace per se, abi

<KarenD> sometimes, priceless^one....it depends on a lot of stuff....sometimes I'm making a connection with myself....but it's unusual that it leads to subspace per se...

* shimmer`` ponders going over to "boytown" in her leathers for the parade

<`abi> how important is the connection for you priceless^one?

<`abi> So...is it safe to say that subspace is scene-related...or can it happen out of scene?

<shimmer``> it can happen out of scene, sure

* priceless^one knows not how to relate to any Dominant without a connection... does not understand 'play' without connection

<`abi> can you give us an example of "how" shimmer?

<KarenD> I have experienced subspace without the Dom being physically present...in Net play...but the emotional connection was pretty deep....but then I look back on it and think that it was the way I was interpreting his words...that the connection was with myself

<shimmer``> abi ... when i was with my Master, all He needed to do was talk to me a certain way, or look at me a certain way that put my head into that space

* KarenD nods

<`abi> that's an interesting observation Karen...how much of attaining subspace is the result of something we do ourselves?

<shimmer``> oh, it's half the battle, imho :)

<priceless^one> does one not needto connect wholly with one's self before they can fully offer their submission? and reach subspace

<mabs> i agree shimmer

* shimmer`` nods at priceless

<KarenD> that's a hard one for me to decide on `abi....I feel so much more connected to myself when I'm connected to someone else....

<shimmer``> it's so true, mabs

<`abi> and to whom are you most connected when you're in subspace Karen...yourself, or your Dominant?

<KarenD> I feel so much more 'real' for lack of a better way to put it....when I have another to focus my natural instincts to serve on...

<`abi> are you "serving" when you're in subspace?

<KarenD> both....I'm connected to the submissive self inside me, and to Him as the focus

* priceless^one asks abi is that not the purest form of service... a complete offering of self and is that offering subspace?

<KarenD> sometimes I'm serving, sometimes I'm just reacting to his choices, sometimes I'm the one coming up with the ideas and he runs with them

<`abi> is that what you do in subspace priceless^one ...offer yourself?

<KarenD> everyone understands I'm talking aboutmy memory of subspace, yes? that there is no current 'him'

<shimmer``> when i'm in subspace, i'm flying ... i don't consider it "serving" at all ... just a pure form of connection

<mabs> and a wonderful release

<`abi> I remember learning in highschool health class that the moment of orgasm is actually a moment when you are least connected to your partner, I wonder if subspace is the same ... is your focus on him, yourself or the connection between you

<shimmer``> yes, mabs :) that too

<KarenD> I think it shifts `abi....depending on the moment

<tru_s{Ach}> subspace to me was a 'space' where nothing existed....total peace, total alienation

<shimmer``> yes, tru :)

<mabs> uh huh

<tru_s{Ach}> a bomb could have gone off inches from my ear and i would not have flinched

<`abi> I've heard subspace described here and elsewhere both as "dropping" and "flying" ... is this different ways to describe the same experience...or are they different sensations?

<KarenD> hmmmm....it's different for me...I have experienced that sense of alienation, but that is subspace gone bad for me...

<shimmer``> i consider "dropping" that instant when i feel my body go slack ... and it all starts to compound ... and then it changes to "flying" :)

<shimmer``> body and mind go slack, actually *grin*

<priceless^one> alienated from self from life from what exactly?

<`abi> yes...Karen and tru seem to have differing senses of what alienation is...could you explain further tru and Karen?

<KarenD> for me, that kind of subspace is a fear...for me, priceless^one....it's an alienation from him...from everything...

<tru_s{Ach}> it's the moment after "subspace" that i do not like....shaking uncontrollably, or crying without apparent reason, confusion while getting my bearings again

<`abi> does it frighten you tru?

<KarenD> I remember one rl reaction to an online scene where I felt like I was dropping into a totally empty space....so completely empty...

<tru_s{Ach}> yes abi, because it is a moment that i truly do not have any control over myself

<KarenD> I've never had that kind of horrible reaction to real life scening..

<`abi> is there control in subspace?

<shimmer``> cyber scenes aren't really scenes, imho ... no offense intended to any present

<tru_s{Ach}> and it had nothing to do with whether or not i trusted the other person.....because i did...and i do, completely.....i think it was more a case of whether or not i trusted myself

<`abi> but if the space is real shimmer...then the scene is real in a sense too

<KarenD> I guess I'm different again, tru....the moments after subspace are my best....when I feel the _warmth_ of my connection to him....I feel so much more vulnerable and connected afterwards then I do even in the space itself...

<shimmer``> i don't know, abi ... i just don't believe it

* priceless^one nods at KarenD that shaky, teary feeling makes me feel wholly alive

<KarenD> well, they are distinctly different shimmer....but I've experienced some pretty profound cyber things...

<`abi> perhaps because you haven't experienced space as a result of an online scene shimmer...but I know many who have

<shimmer``> as i said, it is my opinion alone :)

<`abi> are there any dangers associated with subspace?

<tru_s{Ach}> my first experience with subspace was last year at New Year's....i had nobody there to share my feelings with afterward, to talk to...to even understand what had just happened to me

* KarenD nods 'it's true that I don't like the long term effects of cyber scening..

<KarenD> what about your Dom, tru?

<`abi> anyone feel incapable of using a safeword in subspace?

<shimmer``> yes

<shimmer``> absolutely

<shimmer``> i scened last night ... and there was no way i could have used a safeword

<tru_s{Ach}> i had my 'coming down' time with Him, which was wonderful....

<shimmer``> but then, i was with someone i trusted

<KarenD> hmmmm....feel like I'm incapable...yes. actually incapable ...no, not to date

<shimmer``> and in a very safe environment

* KarenD listens to tru

<`abi> is that part of the fear?

<shimmer``> fear?

<`abi> people have expressed a sense of fear associated with subspace...is that fear the result of knowing that the Dom is completely responsible for knowing your limits?

<tru_s{Ach}> my experiences are very limited in bdsm.....or even in any intimate sense

<priceless^one> does one feel they canlose themselves (a personal fear) in subspace and not come back whole?

<shimmer``> i don't know. the only apprehension i feel is at the beginning, before i've let go ...

* LrdThomas has never seen a sub experience a fear of sub-space.

<`abi> is that something you experience priceless^one?

<shimmer``> i wouldn't use "fear"

<`abi> what would you do if you sensed that fear in a submissive LrdThomas?

<KarenD> not for me `abi....my fear is that the Dom doesn't have a clue of my limits....because when I'm deep enough....I don't know them...I fear when I feel like the bottom is dropping out from underneath me and I'm going to disappear into that emptiness...

<LrdThomas> i would know she wasn't ready to extend the trust i need form her to take her there.

<shimmer``> do you scene with people you don't trust or don't know, Karen?

<priceless^one> yes abi... in allowing one's self to go over the edge you free fall and in that there is a fear for me that I might not recover before hitting bottom

<KarenD> it's not that I don't trust my partners so much as I don't trust that moment...

<Hardest``> which is?

<KarenD> sorry....in that moment, I don't trust myself

<shimmer``> hmm

<KarenD> that moment...is the pure sensation of flying over the edges...

<`abi> is there anything to be learned in that moment Karen?

<KarenD> and not knowing whether I'm going to soar....or crash

<zaRina`> it is at that moment when we are most vulnerable, and it is truely the Doms obligation, duty if you will, to safeguard us, till we can return to our regular level

<mabs> but at that point you shouldn't have to trust yourself

* shimmer`` nods at zarina and mabs

* KarenD smiles at `abi

<`abi> What things can a Dominant do to help a submissive get to subspace? .... are they physical things, mental things, emotional things????...what's the key to the universe?

<LrdThomas> yes

<KarenD> there is something to be learned there but....I'm still not sure of what it is..

<shimmer``> i don't know, when i'm flying i'm not really able to "think" about who i'm trusting, etc ...as LT knows, i am barely able to form coherent sentences such as "thank you Sir" *grin*

<LrdThomas> roglmao!

<zaRina`> at that moment i have no limits, no sense of what is safe or sane, only intense hunger, craving, pure eutophia,,

<`abi> has anyone ever "wanted" to attain subspace and not been able to?

<shimmer``> exactly, zarina

<zaRina`> yes,, usually when i am having to do the "thinking"

<shimmer``> all i was able to think last night was "more ... more ... i want more ..."

<KarenD> I know this doesn't make much sense but....I'm not afraid of the fear in that moment...it is an utterly pure sensation of letting go...

<shimmer``> :)

<`abi> how does that stop you zaRina`?

<KarenD> and the fear is one of the ways I know that I am releasing

<Hardest``> ummmmmm....................

* Hardest`` has a question

<tru_s{Ach}> i never 'wanted' it abi, mainly because i never knew what it was

<`abi> so it was a surprise tru?

<tru_s{Ach}> yes

<`abi> now that you know what it is....can you achieve it at will?

<shimmer``> go for it, Hardest

<zaRina`> well, its like reaching for that orgasam,,, but having to plan ahead on how to get there,,,,,, i want to be taken, led

* priceless^one looks at Hardest.... yes

<KarenD> I've had times `abi when I just couldn't get there....when my emotions were getting in the way...when I was too attached to the stuff and things between us...

* shimmer`` nods again at zaRina :)

<`abi> how important is environment...what helps, what hinders?

<LrdThomas> anything that distracts her from focusing on her master, is a hinderance.

<shimmer``> i agree

<`abi> like what LrdThomas?

<tru_s{Ach}> my first experience was with people i barely knew in strange surroundings....

<`abi> so physical surroundings aren't really a factor tru?

<shimmer``> last night, for example, the Dom i scened with played music - with lyrics- that was really distracting to me - i need pure melody - i found that out last night .. took me longer to let go

<`abi> kinda loses something when you're singing along huh shimmer :)

* shimmer`` giggles and nods!!

<Hardest``> what if the dom u were with said tuff

* priceless^one laffs

<shimmer``> whaddya mean, Hardest?

<`abi> in response to what Hardest?

<tru_s{Ach}> i don't think they are abi, i'm sure they can be.....but i think it is who the experience is with, not where it happens

<Hardest``> what if the dom u were with said ...I don't really care what music u like/don't like...I'm playing what i want?

<Hardest``> music being a repalcement word for anything

<LrdThomas> abi, just what i said.... if something happens in the area around her, that causes a distraction is a hinderance.... what helps, depends to a degree on the girl. But a great example is music.... for some that is necessary, for others a total distraction.

<shimmer``> Hardest ... it would be his choice, of course- but i'm not sure why he would do that ... i did get to subspace last night, but it just took longer

<KarenD> sometimes that would drop me more Hardest, and sometimes it would break the connection between us..

<`abi> depending on what Karen?

<KarenD> if I began to feel like he didn't really care about me, it would break the connection

<mabs> i agree Karen

<KarenD> I remember a scene where we were doing all kinds of pain play and fucking....and he's in my ass and this feeling grew inside...

* priceless^one nods at KarenD and if the connection that level is not possible to attain for me

<`abi> and conversely Karen...under what circumstances would it make you drop?

<KarenD> I felt like I was just another piece of meat to him, that I didn't matter....and I started crying... the moment was broken

<Hardest``> *sigh*.......once again I feellike I'm on the edge of something or other when it comes to these sunday nite discussions...but I gotta say what I gotta thinkj

* priceless^one listens to Hardest keen to hear his viewpoint

<`abi> is there a comparable thing for Doms to subspace.... does Domspace exist?

<shimmer``> go for it, Hardest :)

<DragonCherrry> Yes it does

<`abi> can you describe it DragonCherrry?

* Hardest`` thinks that most of what he has heard here so far is just an excuse to use a DOM to masterbate

<KarenD> what would make me drop deeper? if the trust went beyond the details of music or environment....the trust in him that I did matter to him overall but he was simply making a choice not my own in that moment

<`abi> what makes you think that Hardest``?

<DragonCherrry> u fel the energy coming from ur sub and u feel u are at the vortex of it

<`abi> is that a state of altered consciousness DragonCherrry?

<DragonCherrry> a greater connection for me u can not get any closer emotionaly

<shimmer``> Hardest ... then i apologize for not being clearer ... when i was with my Master, He would take me to subspace - and it was not always a sexual thing. in fact, He often chose not to touch me sexually at all ... i went into subspace from being His and intensely connected with all that He is ... and everything He was doing to me ...by giving Him all that i am

<`abi> do any of the Doms present feel that their submissives get further away from them during their time in subspace?

<DragonCherrry> No, closer

* KarenD nods 'me as well shimmer....with a special ex'

<TheWolfe> we get closer

<LrdThomas> nope

<Kirspin> Defintely closer

<TheWolfe> I agree with DragonCherrry...re: the vortex

<tru_s{Ach}> subspace to me Hardest was, and is, anything but masterbation...

<TheWolfe> it becomes spiritual

* shimmer`` nods at tru

<`abi> how is that closeness expressed if the submissive become nonverbal?

<tru_s{Ach}> the feelings i have are in my head not my crotch

<DragonCherrry> yes sipiritual connection

<shimmer``> well said, tru :)

<TheWolfe> we are both non-verbal

<`abi> spiritual is good....are there any crotch feelings?

<TheWolfe> but the communication is there

<tru_s{Ach}> not for me abi...not so far anyway

<Hardest``> pretty sad relationship when the the penticle is reached when one partner or the other gets their rocks off

<`abi> does anyone orgasm while in subspace?

* Hardest`` thinks LT wins the prize for being honest at least

* priceless^one asks... if the Domspace is an altered space of consciousness then who is the protector in that place

<DragonCherrry> subs

<`abi> how do they protect you DragonCherrry...and from what?

<DragonCherrry> are protected by their Doms

<shimmer``> suit yourself, Hardest :) i don't need to defend what i know to be truth :)

<Hardest``> fine

<shimmer``> it has nothing to do with orgasms to me, abi

<`abi> is there vulnerability in Domspace?

<DragonCherrry> Dom is not unconscius just high with the energy flow, very alive and aware

<LrdThomas> i don't go into an "altered state" whatever the hell that is... i just get totally focused on the lil gem's trust.

<DragonCherrry> ys focused

<Hardest``> Dom is as Dom does

* priceless^one sighs and relaxes knowing someone remains conscious

<TheWolfe> I wouldn't call it Domspace...it's more a higher level of consciousness

* shimmer`` winks at priceless :)

<TheWolfe> perhaps the same for subs

<DragonCherrry> true TheWolfe

<tru_s{Ach}> LrdThomas, have You ever experienced total bliss, sheer happiness...if only for a fleeting moment?

<Hardest``> sorry abs ...couldn't bite my tongue any longer

* LrdThomas has no idea how to answer that tru.

* `abi smiles..that's okay Hardest..we wouldn't want you to hurt yourself ;)

<LrdThomas> i am a very happy man.... best i can do.

* shimmer`` grins

<tru_s{Ach}> and i don't mean when You are looking at a sub's ass either

<Hardest``> yeah.....okie

<Hardest``> lol

<LrdThomas> lol

<Hardest``> well lenne ask something else

<shimmer``> go fer it

<`abi> what kind of aftercare is important to submissives coming out or down from subspace?

<tru_s{Ach}> Hardest, have You ever felt the pure joy of watching Your winning team enjoy victory yet again?

<Hardest``> what happens in a relationship if a subbie doesn't get to subspace?....

<shimmer``> you call it "vanilla"? (joke)

<KarenD> depends on how important subspace is to that sub, Hardest

<priceless^one> are there levels of intensity in sub or Dom space?

<LrdThomas> lol shims

<Hardest``> uh huh

<TheWolfe> depends on the Dom also

<`abi> I imagine that would depend on how important subspace is to the people involved Hardest

<`abi> there is certainly more to any relationship than subspace

<DragonCherrry> subspace is deeper

<mabs> yes so true

<Hardest``> is it?

<shimmer``> subspace isn't a prerequisite in my book, it's just nice when it happens

* LrdThomas would conive, plan, and work devious scenarios till the lil gem floated cum hell or high water. <smirk>

<Hardest``> why as a Dom should I care if a sub reaches sub space?

<`abi> is getting to subspace a reflection on the connection between the partners, on the submissives ability to let go or on the Doms ability to control where she goes?

<DragonCherrry> yes

<`abi> yes to all 3 DragonCherrry?

<TheWolfe> Hardest`` care is the operative word

<DragonCherrry> yes to all 3

<KarenD> thank you TheWolfe

<shimmer``> all three i think, abi

* shimmer`` smiles at TW

* `abi is hoping that someone can wrap "subspace" in a nice succinct conclusion ... any takers?

<priceless^one> TheWolfe much thanks

* priceless^one would like take out pls (grin)

<Hardest``> yeah

<LrdThomas> Hardest, i would be curious to see how you answered your own question please. :)

<Hardest``> subspace is something ur given...not something that is urs to take

<shimmer``> i don't think anyone here intimated that subspace was a birthright

<Hardest``> which was that LT?

<LrdThomas> <Hardest``> why as a Dom should I care if a sub reaches sub space?

<Hardest``> I alredy know my answer....I wuz interested in others

<shimmer``> i would like to know your answer, Hardest

<LrdThomas> i see, thank you.

<KarenD> we're interested in your answer Hardest..

* `abi thanks everyone for participating in tonights discussion...as always, it is refreshing to see differing points of view offered for consideration