October 31 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

October 31, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Having a D/s Relationship Outside of a Vanilla Marriage". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> ohhh too bad then lucy{H}!!!!
<lucy{H}> there's always next time, Sir
* Kilted_One knights Seville{s} with @ "I knight thee, SIR Seville{s}"
<EvilGirl> I have a question about this: Does the ds relationship include sex?
<Kilted_One> so anyone want to kick the discussion off
<dawn{SirL}> EvilGirl...i think it depends on the relationship....lol
<EvilGirl> Ok.
<lucy{H}> that dependson the people involved, EvilGirl
<lucy{H}> some do, some don't
<dawn{SirL}> some want to, some can't!
<dawn{SirL}> lol
<lucy{H}> LOL
<motoki> i tried having a D/s relationship outside of a vanilla marriage - two problems: 1) it wasn't consensual; 2) it was online (the D/s part) - but i still tried
<EvilGirl> I would if the spouse said I could.
<dawn{SirL}> consenual is a really BIG thing....
<krista-F> i have been married for 29 yrs to a vanilla man.
<EvilGirl> Me personally would need to know.
<lucy{H}> motoki, what do you mean it wasn't concensual? do you mean your partner didn't know
<krista-F> i have been in the bdsm scene with his knowledge for the past 6 yrs.
<lucy{H}> while everyone has to make decisions based on their own circumstances i couldn't do it without my husband knowing, that wouldn't sit well for me
<dawn{SirL}> i joined the scene with my hubby's knowledge and blessing...just new
<lucy{H}> me to, dawn
<motoki> yes lucy
<EvilGirl> I should think a marriage would survive longer if everything was out in the open and everyone's needs were met.
<motoki> it didn't sit well with me, either, which is why it stopped
<EvilGirl> Marriages break apart otherwise.
<lucy{H}> that can be teh case EvilGirl, but i think it takes two very emotionally mature people to have an open relationship without jealousy or possessiveness
<dawn{SirL}> exactly...if you aren't happy, and have to find your needs met elsewhere, it would be the same as cheating if your SO didn't know
<lucy{H}> understandable motoki
<krista-F> i cannot either..i am not that type of person...and i will not get involved with someone who is married either..unless their partner has full knowledge as well
<motoki> i tried to introduce D/s to the marriage - i didn't realize at the time, though, that i married a sub
<krista-F> luckilly i have been able to have that for a long time now
<motoki> and i'm definitely a sub
<motoki> same here, krista
* lucy{H} thinks motoki and she might be married to teh same person ;)
<motoki> and he wasn't interested
<EvilGirl> It also could be negotiated that no sex would take place and you would still get the d/s? Everyone stays happy.
<lucy{H}> and some couples do that EvilGirl....and if D/s is all you're interested in then that can work
<krista-F> the man i serve has been married to his slave for a long time....and i have met her personally..
<dawn{SirL}> and if you can get beyond the vanilla Sex, then it definitely can work....
<krista-F> as my husband has met the one i serve..
<lucy{H}> it sounds to me like several here are in this situation....am i right?
<motoki> i'm no longer in the situation - was divorced several years ago
<Kilted_One> not me....not married
<obed1> me neither
<dawn{SirL}> 4*dawn raises her hand*
<motoki> now all i need is my dogs' approval - generally, they approve
<EvilGirl> Not I but realistically it might happen to me eventually.
<lucy{H}> hehehehe
<obed1> i am in a long term relationship to
<obed1> tho
<Kilted_One> one woof for yes and two for no...or is that the other way around
<shadoe> having a D/s relationship outside of a vanilla marriage doesn't work often.. and i'd hazard a guess if anyone did stats.. they'd discover they all end in some type of "divorce"
<lucy{H}> for me it's about openess and honesty...as long as everyone involved is comfortable with the situation then it's all good
<motoki> i'd think so, too, shadoe
<EvilGirl> You could also do stats on the number of vanilla marriages that make it past 8 yrs.
<dawn{SirL}> there are lots of variables that work against it...
<EvilGirl> It would be worse
<lucy{H}> you may be right shadoe, but given the rate of divorce in general that doesn't bode well for any relationship regardless of flavour
<Beowulf3141519> Until you DO the stats, however, having a 'feeling' is not sufficient to make a conclusion.
<shadoe> having been there done that.. i attest to the validity
<shadoe> of both the vanilla marriage that fell apart..
<obed1> i don't think it could work
<krista-F> i believe you are right in that....i am very fortunate.....most people don't last 29 yrs..vanilla or lifestyle
<shadoe> we aren't talking strickly about vanilla marriages falling apart however
<dawn{SirL}> i have been married for 19 years....and this relationship is working very well within our marriage...
<EvilGirl> Ask why they do not work and it boils down to communication or the lack of.
<shadoe> we are talking about vanilla marriages with an external D/s relationship
<dawn{SirL}> however, it has taken along time to come to terms with expectations, needs, trust, etc
<shadoe> and i'm saying.. that's a recipe to fall apart
<dawn{SirL}> once we both (in the vanilla relationship) agreed on terms etc., then i began to look elsewhere
* lucy{H} has been married 10 years, involved in bdsm with consent for a year, D/s relationship for only a short period of time, so will wait to draw any conclusions...but so far, so good
<dawn{SirL}> and only then...
<krista-F> works for me....but then my husband is a very special guy
<dawn{SirL}> me too, lucy {H}...but other relationships, outside of D/S have been successful
<shadoe> and what are the terms dawn?
<lucy{H}> there are many things working against this type of situation, not the least of which is the general lack of acceptance for open relationships, vanilla or otherwise
<EvilGirl> Jealousy would be the factor?
<dawn{SirL}> well, hubby always comes 1st...that goes without saying...
<dawn{SirL}> and the fact that we put each other's happiness first....
<lucy{H}> IMO, if either of your partners is jealous then you need to re-evaluate the situation
<EvilGirl> *smiles*
<shadoe> i don't think jealousy is the factor for the D/s couple.. it's more the fact that the intensity of a d/s relationship overshadows the vanilla relationship
<dawn{SirL}> and if he says "i don't like this" then we discuss and decide if it should continue
<shadoe> is there sex involved dawn?
<EvilGirl> How is that shadoe?
<dawn{SirL}> and as long as we are both getting something out of it, then it continues....
<obed1> but what about the sexual part of a d/s relationship
<dawn{SirL}> *shrugs* not because of MY relationship....
<lucy{H}> dawn brings up a good point...setting out clear boundaries during negotiations is crucial
<EvilGirl> Yes.
<krista-F> you are right in that sadoe....i have found that to be the case at times
* lucy{H} doesn't buy that D/s relationships are more intense than vanilla, but that's just me
<shadoe> of course they are lucy.. just by their very nature, a d/s relationship is intensely intense so to speak
<dawn{SirL}> i think that it can be intense, any new relationship is...but it evens out as you get to know each other and get more conformtable....
<shadoe> it's an entirely different set of expectations compared to vanilla needs
<lucy{H}> perhaps for you they may be MORE intense, but i would venture to guess that the world is larger than one person's experience ;)
<dawn{SirL}> when i first started, i needed contact with my Dom every single day....now we talk/see each other much less often
<Beowulf3141519> yes - a totally differnt set - which means they are not directly comparable.
<EvilGirl> My question is why do both need to be intense. You acquire a d/s to be intense.
<lucy{H}> exactly Beowulf....and if handled well they can be complimentary, not in competition
<`abi> make it 2 ... and yes, it was the intensity that drew and continues to draw me to D/s
<shadoe> i doubt it's one person's experience Lucy.. there wouldn't be so many of us wanting to get on the D/s bandwagon otherwise
<lucy{H}> i require D/s to have certain needs met...ONE of those is intensity, but it's a different kind of intensity
<Beowulf3141519> A lot of us are on the Chocolate bandwagon. Doesn't mean steak isn't perfectly good as well. And chocolate does not drown out my taste for steak
<dawn{SirL}> for me D/S brings a new dynamic to me, which in turn lends itself to new dynamics in my marriage...
<EvilGirl> Exactly so why put pressure on the other relationship to meet the same need?
<lucy{H}> bingo
<dawn{SirL}> believe me, if hubby could be all things to me, i wouldn't be looking elsewhere...but if he was, i wouldn't love him near as much...lol
<lucy{H}> imo, it's unrealistic to expect one person to meet all your needs for a lifetime...if it were realistic the divorce rate wouldnt' be so high
<lucy{H}> but that's another topic for another day
<EvilGirl> I agree with you lucy{H}
<dawn{SirL}> me too lucy
<EvilGirl> I see that now with my friend here in windsor.
<Beowulf3141519> I think that balancing differnent kinds of relationships takes a particular kind of person. But just because it is not universally accesable, doesn't not make it universally UNaccessable.
<EvilGirl> I get different needs met elsewhere but still love her.
<Beowulf3141519> oops - you know what I mean
<EvilGirl> I was the one jealous of her and her other relationships.
<dawn{SirL}> it does require lots of work...for both relationships...sometimes i get caught in the middle of meeting both my Hubbie's and my Dom's needs...
<EvilGirl> So this is a humbling discussion now for me.
<EvilGirl> I hate when that happens cripes *laughs*
<dawn{SirL}> the fact that you can admit it, EvilGirl, means that you learned something from it then...
<EvilGirl> Yes.
* EvilGirl sits in the corner
<lucy{H}> it's a balancing act for sure...but if it's done well it can work
<dawn{SirL}> when you learn something, it is always a good day *grin*
<DrEva> anybody ever seen this type of relationship work?
<Kilted_One> throws EvilGirl a spare pointy hat
<dawn{SirL}> it can be hard not to be selfish.....you have to sometimes handle things with a lot more diplomacy than you think they deserve...
<shadoe> it's a balancing act that's destined not to work to be honest
* EvilGirl wears the pointy hat proudly
<lucy{H}> for some, yes
<Beowulf3141519> So you keep saying shadoe - but can you back that up with facts, and not simply opinion?
<shadoe> name someone it has for.. on a long term basis.. let's try for say.. oh.. 25 years
<Kilted_One> good lass
<DrEva> I haven't seen it work very well, but I hear stories that it's possible.
<dawn{SirL}> *dawn{SirL} thinks that shadoe has had a bad experience?
<shadoe> we all hear stories
<obed1> and if its not possible, then what do you do w/ the one you are with
<EvilGirl> Name me marriages tha tlast that long too.
<shadoe> and no dawn i haven't had a bad experience at all
<shadoe> just a realistic few
<lucy{H}> i think you're setting an impossibly high standard, shadoe...i don't know many vanilla relationships that can stand up to that
<shadoe> hmm... marriages that last that long.. let's start with my inlaws
<lucy{H}> realistic based on....????
<krista-F> are you referring to a D/s relationship and a vanilla marriage Dr.Eva??
<EvilGirl> It isn't distinctive of d/s it is a problem for any relationship.
<dawn{SirL}> these days anything that lasts 25 years deserves applause...
<shadoe> 64 years to be exact
<DrEva> Bottom line is, we do it because our needs outweigh the risk of hurt.
<lucy{H}> ok, so we have ONE...ONE vanilla relationship...any others? ;)
<lucy{H}> so true DrEva
<dawn{SirL}> i would much rather risk my marriage being honest than risk it being dishonest....
<shadoe> tons... i won't bother to name them.. however... i do know them
<shadoe> and i know long term d/s relationships as well
<Kilted_One> needs or wants??
<EvilGirl> Honestly I think if approached with an open sincere line of communication it can work.
<shadoe> however.. long term vanilla with an external d/s
<Kilted_One> needs or desires.??
<lucy{H}> reminds me of a quote by Anais Nin..."and so the day came when the risk it took to remain in a tight bud was greater thanthe risk it took to blossom"
<shadoe> don't know any
<Beowulf3141519> Relationships of any kind survive, and fail. But we're talking about a kind that we do NOT have enough data to make sweeping generalizations about.
<DrEva> the same for me KO
<`abi> 72 for my grandparents lucy ... but it's rather irrelevant isn't it? ... the point is that it's all about weighing risk and reward
<Kilted_One> nods there are a lot that are very fine lines
<dawn{SirL}> and since i have been honest, it was beneficial to me, to us...
<EvilGirl> Hurting someone is doing it behind their back in my book.
<`abi> what am I putting at risk and is it worth it
<lucy{H}> true abi...and about how one wants to live their live...honestly or not?
<shadoe> so dawn.. what's the length of time for your vanilla plus d/s.. am i correct that you are doing this?
<`abi> that is one consideration yes lucy ... there are others
<krista-F> i call it living with honor
<shadoe> and lucy.. are you doing the same?
<dawn{SirL}> yes...19 years vanilla (with other vanilla side relationships thrown in), and only a few months with DS
<EvilGirl> *smiles at krista-F*
<lucy{H}> yes shadoe...i've gone over to the dark side ;)
<DrEva> I don't do vanilla anymore, so this subject no longer applies except in the context of getting different BDSM needs met.
<Seville{s}> well Beowulf...we have absolutely no data for any of these discussions
<shadoe> how long lucy?
<dawn{SirL}> so D/S or not, others invovled is not the issue with us
<Seville{s}> so perhaps we should just say hi and bye
<lucy{H}> but as i stated before, it's still very new so i won't comment yet on viability
<EvilGirl> People should live in harems.
<Beowulf3141519> Seville{s} - then we can only speak on a case-by-case basis. That is still valid
<shadoe> okay.. so dawn and lucy are where i've been before.. i would love to talk to you both in about 3 years
<EvilGirl> This would solve all problems.
<DrEva> I would like that EvilGirl
<krista-F> earlier the point of boundaries was brought up...could someone give an example of that?
* lucy{H} thinks harems would be cool
<dawn{SirL}> i think harems could work in the western world...*except for the jealousy*
<lucy{H}> well, one of my 'boundaries' is that the primary relationship always comes first....so that means my marriage
<DrEva> I think jealousy is the real issue.
<Seville{s}> then please state a case and let's speak to it
<EvilGirl> Yes DrEva
<dawn{SirL}> ah, but if i approached it with your cynism, shadoe, it would die before i gave it a chance to work...so i will continue to be optimistic, thank you
<DrEva> Everyne has jealousy, but they try to deny it.
<dawn{SirL}> depends what you have to be jealous of...
<lucy{H}> jealousy is big...it's not an issue in my marriage though as neither of us are jealous/possessive types...for us open means he is able to see others as well
<shadoe> ah dawn.. how quickly you accuse.. i'm not stating anything with cynism.. merely with an opinion that i believe to be true
<shadoe> perhaps you should be careful on that judgement
<krista-F> my husband does not see others..he has no interest in that.but if he did it would not bother me....
<dawn{SirL}> *begs forgiveness....you sounded cynical...see me in 3 years....*
<lucy{H}> shadoe, i certainly appreciate your perspective as someone who has walked the path before me...but i'm sure you're reasonable enough to allow for the possibility that others may walk the path a little differently, no?
<Beowulf3141519> And as an opinion - it is valid - but opinions are the beginning of investigation. Investigation a path to knowing. Opinions are not knowlege.
<Seville{s}> opinions are beliefs not based on fact
<shadoe> yes.. see you in 3 years.. and if it remains successful then i shall give you my best blessings to continue
<Seville{s}> I do understand that
<krista-F> his only concern re the lifestyle is my happiness and my safety
<shadoe> seeing you in 3 years means a genuine desire to see it work well
<lucy{H}> fortunately, blessings aren't necessary for me to continue ;)
<shadoe> or to be *unfortunately* proven right
<lucy{H}> thanks shadoe, i appreciate that
<dawn{SirL}> * high-five, krista-F...sounds like our hubbys are the same*
<EvilGirl> Is this not the same as vanilla men going to the strip club for a lap dance?
<lucy{H}> how so?
<EvilGirl> No one frowns on this.
<EvilGirl> Wife isn't giving it to him
<dawn{SirL}> i agree with lucy{H}, if i was looking for blessings, i certainly wouldn't be in D/S!
* lucy{H} knows lots of wives who frown on that
<EvilGirl> There is contact physically.
<EvilGirl> There is also jealousy.
<EvilGirl> The women I know allow it
<EvilGirl> It is a need for their husbands.
<lucy{H}> shadoe, may i be nosey and ask what has happened since the demise of your marriage? have you stayed with strictly D/s relationships? feel free to tellme to stuff a sock in it if that's too personal
* lucy{H} prepares the sock
<dawn{SirL}> i think it comes down to the people involved...jealousy isn't just a D/S reaction, or a wife's reaction to a strip club
<shadoe> well demise might be a harsh word
<EvilGirl> It is still jealousy.
<dawn{SirL}> i know lots of women who are jealous when their husbands look at someone else...
<Beowulf3141519> EvilGirl: I think, like a lot of things, that's something else that's a case-by-case basis. Again, it depends where the line in the D/S is drawn as well.
<lucy{H}> sorry, i didn't mean it to sound quite that harsh
<dawn{SirL}> that type of relationship will have trouble no matter what they look for D/S or not
<shadoe> perhaps.. acknowledging we'd grown hugely apart.. and so had lovely lunches whereupon we discussed his potential next mate
<EvilGirl> I understand.
<shadoe> would be more appropriate
<EvilGirl> That is my point tho.
<krista-F> my husband and i point out others to look at...to each other....LOL
<krista-F> and being hetro flexible...i keep him busy with that *eg*
<shadoe> and for the past 6.5 years.. i've enjoyed a strictly D/s relationship
* lucy{H} is actually excited for her hubby when he meets someone interesting...go figure
<shadoe> 5 of which have been 24/7
<Kilted_One> with the same person too shadoe??
<Beowulf3141519> I like that term: hetero-flexible
<EvilGirl> Focussing on d/s as source of possible problem to a vanilla marriage is not all that will kill it.
<lucy{H}> that's nice to hear shadoe...i don't knwo of many D/s relationships that survive that long
<shadoe> yes, with the same person.. *cheeky grin at KO*
<dawn{SirL}> krista-F, exactly...us too...i can't imagine friends of mine doing that tho...which lends itself to the argument that jealousy has more to do with the person than the relationship
<Kilted_One> smiles..was only making a point not being funny lass there are a lot in here that dont know you
<dawn{SirL}> D/S or vanilla, if you are jealous, the relationship will suffer
<shadoe> although KO Sir.. i have to admit i find you hugely cute
<EvilGirl> Yes dawn{SirL}
<`abi> but is he always the same person shadoe? ;)
<krista-F> yes...that is very true dawn.....most of our firends would never understand
<Kilted_One> flatter gets you one free ticket under da kilt
* lucy{H} sits back and watches the flirting
* lucy{H} passes shadoe some lipstick
<shadoe> not always abi.. he's an actor.. *snort*
<Seville{s}> looking over at abi
<dawn{SirL}> you can feel a bit superior to all of those who cannot let go of the pettiness....lol
<Seville{s}> and thinking she is about to get a private message
* `abi chuckles
<krista-F> i recently left the service of the one i have been with all this time..my h was very upset about it...lol
<krista-F> and was glad when i came to my senses and returned to my place of service
<dawn{SirL}> ah...krista-f...he is probably upset because you had to go through the upheaval...
* motoki wonders if anyone in a D/s committed relationship ever seeks vanilla on the side
<krista-F> no.i think his words were....i don't know how he puts up with you ..LOL
<motoki> and if so, why?
<`abi> only if it's ice cream motoki
<Seville{s}> good point motoki
<lucy{H}> good question...i've never heard of that
<Seville{s}> boy
<kierana{DRFL}> lol abi
<krista-F> now that is a very interesting thing motoki.....
* shadoe gives long deep kiss to motoki
* motoki falls over
<Seville{s}> a nice relationship where you don't have to talk and just treat them like crap
<motoki> wait, was that vanilla, shadoe?
<lucy{H}> since when is vanilla like that?
<Seville{s}> it's a joke lucy
<EvilGirl> I think possibly if the d/s will never result in marriage and that is important.
<shadoe> i dunno.. i slipped the tongue too
<kierana{DRFL}> sometimes it is, lucy
<shadoe> is that vanilla?
<lucy{H}> *phew*
<motoki> oh lord - falling over again
<Seville{s}> cause people get pretty self righteous in bdsm
<Beowulf3141519> Hmm... that IS a good question. Possibly not as often. If a D/S relationship is sexual, you can say it's a "superset" of a vanilla relationship. But - with a non-sexual D/S relationship - i can see someone exploring vanilla sex 'on the side'
<Seville{s}> and go off about how much better and more communicative they are
<lucy{H}> or how much more intense they are?
<shadoe> well sheesh.. in the sex world.. sometimes it's not about being beaten first
<EvilGirl> It boils down to needs again. Some want a family.
<Seville{s}> or just how "special" it is
<shadoe> it's just about "gettin it!"
<dawn{SirL}> oh yes....i am just so intense *sarcasm*
<kierana{DRFL}> it doesn't shadoe?
<motoki> well, the only beekeeper i ever met was vanilla - so maybe if i was in a collared relationship, i'd want a beekeeper on the side (and that has little to do with sex)
* lucy{H} has a bookeeper LOL
<`abi> I recognize your sarcasm dawn...but the fact is that if my D/s relationship wasn't intense (after 5 years) then I wouldn't be in it
<Beowulf3141519> Maybe you would. Do you have an innate need for beekeepers in your life?
* kierana{DRFL} is a bookeeper
<motoki> admittedly, though, apiarists can be stingy, like a singletail
<`abi> so, I'd say that it's a pretty big factor for me
<Seville{s}> apiarists are sweet motoki
<Seville{s}> you just have to spit out the wax
<Seville{s}> smiling
<motoki> i love that part
<dawn{SirL}> for me to, abi, but i wouldn't say i am superior to anyone in a vanilla relationship...hense the sarcasm
<`abi> wax?
<motoki> not the spitting out
<motoki> the sweet
<motoki> ok - i'm gonna stop digging myself a hole here
<`abi> it's not about being superior....it's about recognizing what makes you different
<lucy{H}> abi, is your relationship 24/7? i commend y ou for beign able to maintain that level of intensity 24/7 if it is
<dawn{SirL}> well, we all know we are different, or we wouldn't be searching outside of vanilla relationships, would we?
<dawn{SirL}> getting to that point is the big problem in most vanilla relationships
<shadoe> it's not hard to maintain lucy
<motoki> having a point can also be problematic
<shadoe> it's just not always about spankings and floggers
<motoki> which is even more problematic when telling a story
<shadoe> sometimes it's about enduring the snoring
<`abi> it is not a residential relationship lucy, but I'm not sure that's relevant to intensity
<lucy{H}> i guess i'm not sure i'd want something *that* intense ALL the time...i might pop an artery or something...
<EvilGirl> *laughs*
<Seville{s}> snoring??????
<Seville{s}> oh edge play
<dawn{SirL}> *dawn{SirL} holds up the medikit for lucy{H}
<motoki> then, lucy, perhaps you're a candidate for a side vanilla relationship
<lucy{H}> LOL motoki....i'll consider that if my situation ever reverses itself
<Kilted_One> it is if you leave the knife out on the bed side table by mistake Seville{s} <winks>
<`abi> it's when the snoring and spankings start to go together that you have a problem shadoe
<Seville{s}> laughing
<shadoe> *laughing*
<Seville{s}> the knife is always there
<Seville{s}> but I still can't see without my glasses
<shadoe> no it's not!.. the knife got broken by the cat!
<Seville{s}> although that never stops me
<lucy{H}> in the end i think it's about finding the right balance for yourself and that's going to be different for everyone
<motoki> so, what has to happen to allow a relationship (D/s or vanilla) to survive another relationship outside of it (D/s or vanilla)? communication has been bandied about - what else?
<krista-F> honesty.for me
<krista-F> for all involved with me
<dawn{SirL}> exactly....lots of people have different expectations and they have to be agreed upon unilaterally beforehand
<EvilGirl> A non jealous husband.
<Seville{s}> a perceived even handed balance of time distribution motoki
<motoki> lol
<lucy{H}> IMO...and this is just my opinion based on my experience...the parties involved have to be secure in themselves and teh relationship...if they aren't then jealousy is bound to rear it's ugly head
<dawn{SirL}> not saying that things don't change....but if they do, it has to be agreed upon by all involved.
<Beowulf3141519> That there is information for. There have been long-term open relationships dating from the 60s that have been studied.
<krista-F> i value honesty over fidelity.i always have
<motoki> i'd suggest that jealousy is bound to rear its head as a matter of human nature - so the question seems to be more appropriately aimed at "how is jealousy handled successfully"?
<`abi> what happens beforehand is almost irrelevant .. was has to happen in order for it to continue is for all parties to continue to find that their needs are being satisfied
<`abi> when that stops happening, then it falls apart ...simple and complex as that
<EvilGirl> As was said: equal time for all.
<`abi> not necessarily EvilGirl
<motoki> i'd suggest that the jealous partner tie up the other partner and beat them up, but that could just be my bias
<`abi> not everyone requires equal time
<dawn{SirL}> true, abi...although if there is open and honest communication throughout it is less likely that anyone gets unnecessarily hurt
* lucy{H} wouldnt mind a jealous partner under motoki's view
<EvilGirl> True. Enough time for each.
<motoki> actually, it was PERCEIVED equal time
<Beowulf3141519> How about sufficient time for all.
<Seville{s}> I didn't say equal time but a perception of balance of time
<EvilGirl> I said equal.
<dawn{SirL}> there just isn't enough time in the day, sometimes...*sigh*
<`abi> that hasn't been my experience or my observation dawn, but I suppose it's possible
<motoki> "quality time"
<motoki> (which usually involves leather)
<krista-F> i will say.when i first got back into the lifestyle after a 20 yr absence..my husbands only concern was that he would be left behind...or left out in some way
<motoki> horseback riding and such
* lucy{H} goes all glassy eyed at the thought
<krista-F> he saw that was not going to happen...he knows all my lifestyle friends...
<EvilGirl> Left out is the key phrase.
<krista-F> he actually drives me when i go to spend time with the one i serve
<dawn{SirL}> what is your experience or observation, abi, if i may ask?
<lucy{H}> regarldess of how things turn out for me in 3 years, or 10 years or 20 years one thing i know for sure, i will not go back to a strictly monogamous relationship again
<`abi> that things change and life is messy dawn
<Seville{s}> well unless your Master expects it lucy
* lucy{H} agrees with abi on that one
<dawn{SirL}> abi...so true...but anything you can do to minimize the messiness....
<EvilGirl> I also agree with abi
<lucy{H}> Seville, i wouldn't agree to serve a Master who expected strict monogamy, if there wasn't room for play i'd look elsewhere
<`abi> that getting hurt is part of life being messy and that it's impossible to predict what life will dish out
<dawn{SirL}> we have had bumps in the road all the way around, with hurt feelings and such, but being able to talk about it is a big plus...communication is key
<krista-F> all relationships take work...that is the one universal truth
<Seville{s}> well that narrows the field a bit
<lucy{H}> sure does...but in the end it's about knowing what i need
<lucy{H}> i'm ok with holding out to have those needs met
<Seville{s}> absolutely
<dawn{SirL}> true...but if you could predict, where would be the fun in living...
<`abi> communication doesn't do anything except make you aware of what's going on .. it doesn't change what happens .. it just means you talk about it
<lucy{H}> communication is step 1....if you don't make any attempt to fix the problem then communication is an exercise in futility
<dawn{SirL}> but if you can't start by communicating, you cannot validate the feelings and do anything to try and fish it
<dawn{SirL}> fix it i mean!
<`abi> if intensity is overused .. .then 'good communication' is way oversold as a panacea for all evils
<shadoe> so then lucy.. would you say that your D/s is highly based on the physical?
<Seville{s}> fishing is good all the time though abi
<`abi> only if it involves weights and hooks Seville
* motoki refrains from comment
<lucy{H}> good question shadoe...the reason i chose this D/s relationship was because i wanted teh opportunity to learn to serve...i'm still new to the scene and the relationship is new so we're still feeling out a balance
<Beowulf3141519> If you're involved in a D/S relationship, outside of marriage, how could the person you're involved with D/S expect monogamy? You're... married! It's mixed from the start.
<Kilted_One> communication has to be two ways and more importantly has to be understood in both directions.. or it is not communication it is just talk
<motoki> when i grow up, i want to end up with a skilled fisherman who communicates openly & frequently
<Seville{s}> did we define D/s as being about sex?
* lucy{H} giggles
<Seville{s}> I must have missed that
<dawn{SirL}> okay, okay...so i like to fish...lol
<`abi> I think you were snoring and missed it Seville
<shadoe> okay.. so if there were no physical contact..would you still be determined to never be monogamous again?
<lucy{H}> come again shadoe?
<lucy{H}> sorry, that one went over my head
<Beowulf3141519> Ah - no, no you didn't
<lucy{H}> all i know is that for me strict monogamy is stifling
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Seville{s}> when I snore I miss nothing
<lucy{H}> now whether that means in relation to intercourse or "play" cuold be defined within the relationship
<Seville{s}> cause I am at the beach watching the waves roll in and fishing
<shadoe> hokay.. so well.. D/s is not strictly physical.. in fact it's very much more psychological.. is it the physical that you are getting outside of the vanilla marriage or the psychological?
<dawn{SirL}> if it was only physical, then i would be a bottom, not a sub in a committed relationship
<lucy{H}> ahh, ok...i see what you're asking now...for me D/s is *very* psychological...the physical is a way to reinforce that, but alone it's not terribly satisfying...does that answer the question a little more clearly?
<shadoe> yes.. and if there were no physical.. would you still be in it?
<dawn{SirL}> then you could just "do it" online, lucy{H}!
<lucy{H}> quite possibly...but i can't say for sure since i havent' been presented with teh opportunity
<lucy{H}> ugh, dawn, lets not go there LOL
<shadoe> okay that's fair
<krista-F> i have done all types of service....a lot of non sexual as well as sexual
<krista-F> it all has a place in my world
* EvilGirl takes off her pointy hat and gives the teacher an apple.
<krista-F> and i get something from all of it
* EvilGirl hears the bell ring for recess and bolts.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.