October 27, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion
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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Punishment". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> speak of the bot
<too_willing> kewl!
<becky{M}> lol
<Kilted_One> so who has got anything to start this off <besides the bot>
<too_willing> do many people differentiate between punishment and discipline?
<Kilted_One> I do
<jewel`{F}> discipline is a way of teaching, punishent is when something is done on purpose
<too_willing> hmmm - do you differtiate between severities?
<Kilted_One> and feel that it is very important to make sure that it is punishment and why it is being levied
* Kilted_One thinks that that punishment has to fit the crime
<too_willing> yes...
<jewel`{F}> logical consequences
* too_willing nods at jewel`{F}
<too_willing> but how do you decide what fits?
<Kilted_One> personal judgement I gues
<Kilted_One> s
<too_willing> hmm - do you evaluate the difference between what you think fits and the submissive thinks fits?
<Kilted_One> I dont
<Kilted_One> she may voice her opinion but that is all
<Kilted_One> she is not the one that is in control I am
<too_willing> so you might mete out a punishment that might not mean on a personal level to the submissive?
<jewel`{F}> Master will ask me what i think is fair but it is always His decision
<too_willing> yes i agree with the concept...
<too_willing> (totally by the way)
<Kilted_One> yes that can and Im sure will happen too_willing
<too_willing> when deciding how the punishment fits the crime, do you look at the base causes for the infraction and try to address them?
<Kilted_One> in some kinda perverse way I think that it is my duty to punish if things have not been done correctly or if I feel that punishment is required, if I dont then I feel I am letting the importance of what we do slip somewhat
* rhiannon{KO} totally agrees with that statement...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> a very important point Kilted_One
* too_willing is in agreement as well
<Lady_Meadows> agree without a reaction from you your sub would lose respect and faith in the agreement
<rhiannon{KO}> if I am not being punished for my "sins" i get the impression that Master doesn't give a poop what i do...
<Kilted_One> the punishment is what is being done to "address" the issue so it is very fitting that it be related to it
<DarkAngel^{rt}> consistancy is very very important ,,, and something every Dom/me has to keep up
* too_willing nods to rhiannon{KO}!
<Kilted_One> good point DA
<DarkAngel^{rt}> the "main" sin ,,, is and always should be --- displeasing the Dom
* rhiannon{KO} nods.
<Kilted_One> if not punishment can get "confused with play" with some ppl
<rhiannon{KO}> sometime that knowledge alone is punishment enough,,,,knowing Master is not pleased...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> and in correcting or directing my slave,,, I continually steer her behaviour to please myself
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I never use Corporate Punishment ,,,, my slave is a pain slut ,, and I enjoy such play with her ,,,, creates (for us) mixed messages
<too_willing> is there a difference in meanings by the severity of a punishment or discipline?
<rhiannon{KO}> lol....thing is, i enjoy it also...(pain) but to me me there is a big difference between play and punishment....\
* too_willing is taking this all in...
<`abi> there is for me too rhiannon{KO} ... and it's all about intent
* rhiannon{KO} nods..
<ArTe^minx> (minx) i agree rhiannon{KO}... a playful smack can be as hard as i can take it.. a punishment smack.. well, one would bring me to tears.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> understandable rhiannon{KO} ,, but not all do ,,, as well, I personally dont like to chance it ,,, thus I find "other" ways to punish
<rhiannon{KO}> i can understand that too DA...
<too_willing> like what DarkAngel^{rt}?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> if my slave puts her pleasure before mine ,,, I deny her orgasm
<Kilted_One> I think it is easy to set things up so that it is clear that the headspace is in punishment mode and not pleasure mode and then the submissive/slave isnt getting enjoyment out of it
<DarkAngel^{rt}> once for 3 days ,,,, the lesson was very well learned
<jewel`{F}> there are many times that any punishment Master could give me is not as bad as the feeling i get knowing i have displeased or disappointe Him
<too_willing> i often think i do more in my head than what is meted out...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> what ,,, alternative ways has others punished?
<ArTe^minx> (minx) Sir will just send me home.
<rhiannon{KO}> that in itself is worse punishment then getting a canning ArTe^minx.
<too_willing> i made a mistake in communication and was denied my voice and eyecontact while we were out in a kink friendly environment - that was hard
<Kilted_One> denial, sent to their room, made to do something they dont like, write about it the list goes on and on
<ArTe^minx> (minx) oh, i hate it with the passion of a thousand dying suns. it's the worse possible thing for me.
* rhiannon{KO} smiles at ArTe^minx, sencing how much he/she reallllly hates it..
<jewel`{F}> Master has yet to use any sort of corpral punishent with me, loss of privilages, writing apologies, writing essays,
* ArTe^minx (minx) has been accused of drama. <shrugs>
* rhiannon{KO} giggles. no way!!!!!!! *smile*
<too_willing> is the attention paid to how the punishment is done as important? ie reading/evaluating an essay...
<Symmetre{t}> the good ol' oral presentation is always a good one when it's time to make a point ... have her talk about whatever it was she did wrong ... complete with hand-outs
<rhiannon{KO}> lol
<Symmetre{t}> when she acts up I threaten to go buy a flip chart
<`abi> go ahead and laugh rhiannon{KO} ... I'll bet KO is writing that one down
* too_willing giggles at a flip chart..
<ArTe^minx> mm. diagrams.
<rhiannon{KO}> no, i am laughing cuz its just what He makes me do already.
* `abi chuckles ... oh
* Lady_Meadows taking notes
<Kilted_One> the three coloured pen essay was the best one
<too_willing> so is it just as important to the submissive that the Dominant pay attention to what is done and how it is done?
<Lady_Meadows> I would think so too_willing
<rhiannon{KO}> for sure too_willing, i take punishment very seriously, and i hope to see that Master does too.
<Lady_Meadows> if they put a half ass job into doing the assignment then it is like a s slap in the face back at you
<Kilted_One> each word had to be rotated in colour and the rotation of words always had to be the same ie red,green then 12blue and always in that order
<DarkAngel^{rt}> whenan assignment is given ,, the Dom MUST pay close attention ,, review the work and give a responce for the hard work
<rhiannon{KO}> if Master was half ass about punishment, then i would treat it half assed in turn.
<DarkAngel^{rt}> nice ass that I saw tonight rhiannon{KO} *evil smirk*
* rhiannon{KO} smiles at the perverted DarkAngel^{rt}..
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I resemble that
<Kilted_One> thinks that DA must be looking in his "rear view mirror" again
<too_willing> so could punishment be considered a 'ritual'? - that which gives meaning to a D/s relationship
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I demand an active participant in rosethorns own slavery
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol
* Kilted_One thinks about that as I dont really think that I feel it is a ritual, but still thinking about it
<too_willing> but it is a process whereby each person has to 'pay' attention to the relationship - albeit the mechanics is one that always changes.
* Lady_Meadows likes too_willing discription
<DarkAngel^{rt}> it could be ,,,, lol,, my little one claims I always get all formal on her when displeased ,,,, I use that now ,,, as a way to make her realize ,, and to discuss theinfraction
<too_willing> thank you, Lady_Meadows
<Lady_Meadows> yVw
* too_willing wonders if Kilted_One is still thinking... hard...
<Symmetre{t}> thing is, if you're going to assign a punishment you have to not only pay attention to it and follow through ... but you have to know where you're going with it. You have to look at where you're going with the punishment, what you want out of it in the short term, and in the longer term as well. Individual punoshments are like steps in an overall direction
<Kilted_One> Im struggling with calling punishment a ritual I think because I see a "ritual" as being a set of actions/demands/expectation/series of events that have been agree upon ahead of time and are repeated in a "ritual" manner...punishment on the other hand is not the same every time as it fits the crime
<rhiannon{KO}> totally true Symmetre{t}..
<Symmetre{t}> you need to know what the effect is, individually and collectively
<too_willing> but would that relate more to discipline? 'discipline is a way of teaching'...
* Kilted_One looks down and confirms that he is NOT hard too_willing <EG>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> levels of punishment was mentioned ,,, I do punish less if the infraction was one that was confessed,, as in I would otherwise be unaware of
<`abi> I don't think that punishment is a ritual ... it is an accoutrement of the lifestyle ... but a ritual is something which is proactive ... punishment is reactive
<Symmetre{t}> what is the basic purpose of punishment then, too_willing?
<too_willing> atonement.... stopping an action from happening again...
<Kilted_One> nods to abigailles comment ty you said what I was struggling with....
<DarkAngel^{rt}> I give mercy to a confessed slave ,,, thus she is more willing ,, eager actually to confess ,,, thus she assists in keeping her own disapline
<Symmetre{t}> I agree with abi ... it is reactively triggered ... but it must be proactive in a sense too in that it must correct an inappropriate behaviour
<too_willing> but is the structure which initiates punishment not similar every time - not the actual action but recognition, the devising of the punishment, action of the punishment and the forgiveness afterwards?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> confess ,, repent,, absolution
<too_willing> much more eloquently said, DarkAngel^{rt}
<DarkAngel^{rt}> ty too_willing
<DarkAngel^{rt}> absolution is very important in my mind ,,,, do not keep bringing things up that she has served penance for
<Symmetre{t}> agreed, DarkAngel^{rt}
<DarkAngel^{rt}> otherwise you belittle the disapline she has searved
<Kilted_One> but I think that the difference is that the action or punishment is not thought out before hand and is not repeated on a 'ritual" or repedative basis, making it reactive in nature
* too_willing nods sagely to DarkAngel^{rt}
<too_willing> but in a religious sense, penance is a ritual, regardless of the form it takes...
<rose{MD}> i agree too_willing
<DarkAngel^{rt}> depends on the couple I think
<shadoe{S}> hiya
<too_willing> lol... well of course it depends on the couple... <grinz>
<Kilted_One> are you sure you are not confusing the "method" of giving and receiving the "penance" as the ritual and not the actual penance itself??
<`abi> yes, but it differs from religious penance too_willing ... because in BDSM there is no punishment if there is no transgression ... religion assumes transgression
<Kilted_One> after the punishment has been dealt and accepted you have to forgive and forget and move on...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol,,, what I mean is that ,, it sounds like mine might have some ritual ,, if it could be called that ,, whereas others dont, they structure based on the situation
<`abi> it would be a ritual if you were punished every Friday whether you did something wrong or not
<Symmetre{t}> to my way of thinking, a ritual is planned and repetitive .... punishment is neither (hopefully!)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> for example ,, at the end, I might usually have rt belly to me ,, and kiss my feet (not all the time, but usually)
<DarkAngel^{rt}> no,,, that would be setting the entire disapline into a ritual ,,, parts might be
<DarkAngel^{rt}> thus rt knows once she has bellied ,, that my concern and having delt with the issue is resolved my my mind
* too_willing winks at rhiannon{KO}
<Kilted_One> is there any "bad" punishment??
<Lady_Meadows> what about those subs who intentionally misbehave in hopes of punishment?
<Lady_Meadows> I've heard of those who intentionally misbehave in order..
<rose{MD}> subs do that Maam ? *grin*
<DarkAngel^{rt}> those are the ones who should never be punished with Corporal Punishment then ,,lol
<Lady_Meadows> to push Masters buttons
<`abi> that's called being bratty Lady_Meadows .... and it is usually in hopes of attention, not real punishment
<too_willing> i would think that a bad punishment would be one where the Dominant hasn't thought out the consequences or doesn't pay attention
<Lady_Meadows> looking for a reaction
<shadoe{S}> if the relationship is satisfying for both parties.. misbehaving for attention shouldn't be necessary
<lovelydevilcunt> and bratts = waste of time no abi??
* too_willing nods at shadoe{S}
<`abi> depends on the Dom/me lovelydevilcunt ... some thrive on it
<Symmetre{t}> Lady_Meadows .... that to me would suggest a problem that goes far deeper than what the misbehaviour would suggest on its own .... i.e. something's rotten in Denmark, Macbeth
<too_willing> so does the Dominant then devise a punishment that would bring to light (hopefully) the reasons behind the feeling of needing attention?
<DarkAngel^{rt}> lol,, I let my little slut be bratty when we play ,, but that is part of the dynamics of our play
<Symmetre{t}> ideally, yes .... too_willing
<jewel`{F}> Lady_Meadows there are some that do do that, myself i think it is disrespectful and a form of topping from the bottom
<shadoe{S}> maybe the dominant would be smarter to recognize some talk is needed.. rather than punishment..
* `abi nods to DA ... and for some it is part of the dynamic of the relationship
<yummy`treat> it only works if the Dom allows it to work
<Symmetre{t}> as opposed to a punishment that gives her what she wants ... on the surface
<yummy`treat> so i figure those that allow that in their relationship - well it must work for them
<`abi> exactly yummy
<too_willing> on both sides...
<DarkAngel^{rt}> remember ,, the main sin (IMO) is displeasing the Dom/me ,,,, so if they allow brattiness ,,, more power to them in their relationship
<too_willing> thereby satisfying both parties
<Cliffy> hi everyone
<Cliffy> hi too_willing
<yummy`treat> some need the whole scenario as an excuse to play
<Cliffy> hi fiestyone
* Kilted_One reminds ppl of the laugh rule
<yummy`treat> they just use the same words some use....but with a different meaning that works for them
* too_willing laff rule?
<Cliffy> is this the ehbc channel discussion?
* too_willing knows the golden rule..
<rhiannon{KO}> yes Cliffy.
<lovelydevilcunt> i know that one KO
<Kilted_One> yeah if you do something that clearly shouldnt be done but you make me laugh while doing it you can claim immunity with the laugh rule
<lovelydevilcunt> :)
<lovelydevilcunt> i knew it
<lovelydevilcunt> and i like it
* too_willing really likes that one!
* rhiannon{KO} smiles at lovelydevilcunt...
* too_willing is taking notes on that one!
<jewel`{F}> oh i like that KO
<rose{MD}> i will have to remember that rule Kilted One and tell Master
<rhiannon{KO}> it has saved me on more then one ocassion.
* jewel`{F} makes note of that to send to Master for His opinion
<too_willing> so what about differing severities... small infraction... is that still considered a punishment? or discipline?
<Kilted_One> I think that adds a little levity into an otherwise straight D/s situation in some cases
* DarkAngel^{rt} is too serious for levity
* Kilted_One smiles at DA and knows the real truth cuase rt has told me <winks>
<DarkAngel^{rt}> that bitch ,,,,, lol,,, I will get her
<Kilted_One> Im sure you do DA......frequenty she says
<DarkAngel^{rt}> only cause she "want's" to be got
<DarkAngel^{rt}> as well that is why disapline works ,,, because most slaves want to be controlled
<Kilted_One> so on the same vein, how does one tell if the submissive is "wanting attention"
<DarkAngel^{rt}> they want to make their owners happy and proud to own them
<rhiannon{KO}> can i ask if any sub/bottom feels that her Doms punishment is sometimes worse then her infraction, and if she does feel that way, what does she do about it. or is there something she can do about it????
<Lady_Meadows> k someone reply to too_willing queston
<rhiannon{KO}> what was the ???
<DarkAngel^{rt}> it is up to the Dom ,,, of course
<jewel`{F}> i have never felt that way rhiannon{KO}
* Kilted_One thinks that ?? has been answered....punishment fitting the crime
<DarkAngel^{rt}> just as if they decide to disapline or not ,, after an issue is discussed
<`abi> if that is the case rhiannon{KO}, then I'd say it means that you are giving different value to the transgression and that what is important is to find out why it is more important than you perceive it to be
<`abi> and somewhere in the punishment process there should always be a place to make sure that both people understand exactly what is being punished and why
<Kilted_One> and what to do about it is to "discuss" and determine why there is a difference
* DarkAngel^{rt} is about to turn into a punkin
<rhiannon{KO}> so true abi..;)
<too_willing> ummm... KO can you elaborate on that statement
<`abi> I think that sometimes that is really the most valuable part of the process ... to understand why things are important
<too_willing> hmm - that is so true throughout a D/s relationship
<rhiannon{KO}> once again abi,,,,i totally agree with ya girl.
<too_willing> same here
<Kilted_One> if my slave thinks that I am being too severe in the punishment then it is clear that her expections/understanding of what I expected are off and she did not understand how "wrong" the error was
<fiery^desire> greetings A/all
<shadoe{S}> errr.. isnt it just possible that your slave's instincts might be right and the punishment doesnt fit the crime?
<shadoe{S}> we are all human after all
<rose{MD}> But a slave should not question her Masters judgements. Right?
<shadoe{S}> feable human flesh that does err on occasion?
<rhiannon{KO}> not true rose{MD}...
* too_willing nods to rhiannon{KO}
<shadoe{S}> she may not question.. but that doesn't make an unfair punishment right
<Kilted_One> you saying that the Dom/me might be wrong shadoe{S}??? wash you mouth out....we are never wrong <smiles>
<rose{MD}> i mean if she has a problem yes talk about it but His decision is final
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<too_willing> decision is different than judgement
<shadoe{S}> sorry KO Sir.. i don't eat soap *impish grin*
<rhiannon{KO}> it all depends on what rights she has rose{MD}..
* Kilted_One laughs
<rose{MD}> this is true rhiannon
<Kilted_One> most definately there has to be communication
<rose{MD}> i agree there Sir
<shadoe{S}> nod nod
<Cliffy> as a top, I find true "Punishment" to be the most difficult thing
* `abi has a thought .... someone stifle that Bot ... this is just getting interesting
<shadoe{S}> and most submissives/slaves i know would not say a word during the punishment
<Kilted_One> I also take away her alibi too shadoe{S}, I try to use words like "now do you understand what I am asking"??
* too_willing agrees wholeheartedley with KO
<ephemeraleve> dare i ask... what the difference between punishment and discipline is?
<shadoe{S}> however.. when it was time for open discussion.. you gotta know the topic will come up
* rhiannon{KO} stuffs the Bot's mouth with a towel, and shoves Him in the corner..
<trufriend> poor bot
<Cliffy> I think the difference between punishment and discipline is that punishment is a specific infliction for a specific offense
<Justice> glub, glub, glub (wrong bot)
<Cliffy> whereas discipline involves all around comportment
<rhiannon{KO}> hehehe woops, sorry Justice.
<too_willing> well there is new definition for the topic.
<Cliffy> in that respect, Punishment is a part of Discipline
<too_willing> i've heard that punishment is for the very deep transgressions in the relationship, discipline is for everyday shaping of behaviours
<rhiannon{KO}> wooooo thats deep...
<ephemeraleve> that was my understanding too too_willing
<Kilted_One> does it have to be afterwards shadoe{S}, I try to have it before hand....
<shadoe{S}> then you are rare
<`abi> works best for me that way too KO ... the understanding needs to come first
<shadoe{S}> most of us walk into a situation without even realizing we are messing up
<Kilted_One> I try not to spent any more time that I really have to on the spit shadoe{S} <winks>
* BlkTiedDom thinks the discipline is used as a means of "redirection" for a specific behaviour, whereas a Punishement is for a transgression which has an outlined consequence
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Kilted_One> nods, yes that happens but before I met out the punishment I want to discuss why expectations were not met....
<too_willing> so BlkTiedDom, would you have specific punishments predefined for specific transgressions?
* `abi thinks Justice makes a much nicer bot