October 12 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

October 12, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Protocol". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Justice> hi jewel, BlackOrchid, arhi, NorthLad
<BlackOrchid> so about Protocol......
<BlackOrchid> ???
<BlackOrchid> sometimes I think it can be a very thorny issue, but when it works well, it's so beautiful
<`abi> thorny in what way BlackOrchid?
* starla{TDM} is not sure what you mean by protocol
<BlackOrchid> Some people get all bent out of shape if you don't follow the protocols they expect.
<BlackOrchid> Some get bent out of shape if you don't use them at all
<`abi> and I would add that some get bent out of shape if you do
<jewel`{F}> or if you use them and they don't think you should be
<BlackOrchid> starla, by protocol I mean a set of rules of behaviour that provide context for interaction
<drauma{MzTyger}> from websters - F Protocole, gr protokollon - the first leaf glued tot he rolls of papyrus and the notorial documents, fr protos first, + kolla glue
<BlackOrchid> an example is the 'net protocol if putting curly brackets around names of people with whom you have relationships when you're online
<QTIP> this is a broad subject. there is the ritualized behavior chosed in a 1 on 1 relationship. there is also behavior which shows respect for roles chosen among those in the community
<QTIP> chosen, not chosed
<BlackOrchid> yes, that's true QTIP
<drauma{MzTyger}> ...Diplomacy, a preliminary memorandum, as of resolutions arrivced at in negotiation
* starla{TDM} listens
<BlackOrchid> I don't believe I should have to follow protocols set out for my behaviour if I chose not to. not all of them are based on politeness
<jewel`{F}> in some cases it can be as simple as using proper manners as well
<LadyNichola> Clearly, it's a broad topic
<BlackOrchid> however, I won't break a known protocol if I can avoid it, such as referring to a Dom/me with whom I'm involved with an honourific if they ask me to use one
<drauma{MzTyger}> in scientific circles it refers to a set of proceedures that accomplish some task
<LadyNichola> maybe we can trim it down
<private-beauty> but my protocols will not be the same as everyone elses
<BlackOrchid> how so, LadyNichola?
<LadyNichola> in D/s circles... it refers to observing a set of rules that govern social interractions
<BlackOrchid> no, that's true private-beauty
<LadyNichola> so you have casual/informal social interractions
<LadyNichola> And then more formal ones...
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would expand that beyond D/s circles, swappers have protocols, so do other kinksters
<BlackOrchid> indeed. but we're talking about kink protocols here, aren't we?
<LadyNichola> protocol (to me) suggests a good deal of formality
<drauma{MzTyger}> !whatis ponyslut
<jewel`{F}> i would agree LadyNichola
<BlackOrchid> i agree with that too
<LadyNichola> also suggests to me the concepts of diplomacy/negotiation and peaceful relations.
<BlackOrchid> but the amount of formality can differ depending on the depth of protocol, can't it?
<LadyNichola> I suppose so BlackOrchid
<QTIP> personally, i can't see not being polite. i'm probably more cooly polite toward those for whom i have little regard
<jewel`{F}> also by how well you know a person, some expect it more than others
<`abi> because we do not really have institutionalized protocols, such as one would find in the House of Commons or a royal court or a church
<BlackOrchid> QTIP, it's not so much about being polite in my view, as much as following an unwritten (or sometimes written) set of guidelines about behaviour
<drauma{MzTyger}> sometimes being a liuttle rude is a kind of politeness, it acknowledges a depth of relationship
<LadyNichola> agreed BlackOrchid
<BlackOrchid> that's true, drauma
<LadyNichola> Sorry, I don't get it drauma
<LadyNichola> "being rude is a kind of politeness"?
<BlackOrchid> and sometimes that lessening of formality must be earned
<drauma{MzTyger}> like when you call someone by an insulting nickname, not meaning it
<QTIP> agreed BlackOrchid...but now that lines of demarkation are starting to blur between the gay and str8 kinky community nearby me, i'm having to learn a new set of protocols when i'm with the group i have less experience with
<QTIP> one doesn't just move a Leatherman's hat off a chair
<BlackOrchid> it's true, QTIP, that protocols in each community will differ. protocols online are different than they are in person, for example, but they often bleed into one another
<drauma{MzTyger}> some of hte old norse nicknames were downright fighting words
<BlackOrchid> I didn't know that, QTIP
<jewel`{F}> There is one Dom that i respect very much, He is always "Sir" yet at the same time i may get "smart assed" with Him with in limits and boundries, some may think it is being rude, but at the same time if i were not to have at least one sassy remark for Him, He would worry about me
<drauma{MzTyger}> yes
<drauma{MzTyger}> bratting is a way of acknowledging the relatinoship
<spirited_sassy> being sassy and being rude are two different things though
<BlackOrchid> but jewel, isn't that about building trust and understanding the difference between respect/deference and being "real"?
<drauma{MzTyger}> male freinds with a good relationship might well greet each other as 'you old fart' and 'you slimy bastard'
<jewel`{F}> between the 3 (Master, the other Dom, and myself) of U/us yes, but there have been others that have done a double take at some of the comments i have come up with
<`abi> do we have any universally accepted protocols?
<arhiannah> lol...i double take at some of the comments you come up with jewel
<BlackOrchid> drauma, they might also ask each other about the 'ball and chain' ;)
<drauma{MzTyger}> nods
<LadyNichola> I don't think there are any universally accepted ones...
<BlackOrchid> I don't know about "universal", abi, but there are some that are common
<drauma{MzTyger}> "Yo, bitch, bring me a beer!"
<LadyNichola> but there are some...ditto
<BlackOrchid> LOL Nichola
<`abi> such as ....
<LadyNichola> "Old School", "Old Leather", "High Protocol D/s"
<BlackOrchid> Not touching another person without permission if you see they are collared
<BlackOrchid> Not grabbing someone else's toys and playing with them
<LadyNichola> share an awful lot in common
<jewel`{F}> speaking with the Dominant first before speaking to the sub
<BlackOrchid> that too, jewel, yes
<shareena_> even if they are collared I don't think you should touch someone without their permission
<drauma{MzTyger}> respect for another persons personal space is often lacking *sighs*
<shareena_> sorry meant "even if they are NOT collared"
<`abi> any thoughts on what those accepted protocols do for us?
<LadyNichola> As with diplomacy...
<BlackOrchid> agreed, shareena, but even if you don't respect the simple politeness many respect a collar
<drauma{MzTyger}> a minimal degree of respect is a good thing to engender
<LadyNichola> protocols allow us to discuss dangerous concepts
<BlackOrchid> abi, I think these protocols set up boundaries that help us learn how to find ways of respectfully interacting with each other
<LadyNichola> with relative safety
<`abi> an intriguing idea LadyNichola ... and one that I think is part of what BlackOrchid is suggeting as well ... can you expand on it a little...examples...
<LadyNichola> respectfully, I think BlackOrchids point is slightly different
<BlackOrchid> I agree Nichola.
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, the idea is to engender common courtesy, but there are times when it isnt clear what that would entail
<LadyNichola> her point appears to be that protocol reinforces roles and responsibilities
<`abi> good ... I adore being wrong ;) ... can you both expand then please
<LadyNichola> and that those boundaries ensure mutual respect and a sense of duty
<BlackOrchid> yes, and determine what "courtesy" is in a specific context
<LadyNichola> am I close Black Orchid?
<BlackOrchid> very close, Nichola
<`abi> and does that not help to create the safe place to discuss dangerous concepts?
<BlackOrchid> yes, but I think we were coming at it from different perspectives, wouldn't you say, Nichola?
<LadyNichola> My point is that protocol provides a specific mechanism for discussing (and negotiating) dangerous concepts
<LadyNichola> not merely a welcoming environment
<LadyNichola> but specific rules as to how one can communicate.
<drauma{MzTyger}> in most relationships the Dominant protects and guides the submissive, while the submissive does the bidding of the Dominant...for some this includes service of the DOminant, and in that service the submissive might interface to the public for the DOminant...
<jewel`{F}> or the other way drauma{MzTyger}
<BlackOrchid> that's true, drauma, and for that one sometimes needs to have protocols for representing one's Dominant
<BlackOrchid> to show appropriate levels of respect and deference
<jewel`{F}> there are times that the Dominant will do the talking as it were for the sub
<LadyNichola> to reflect favourably on one's Mistress
<drauma{MzTyger}> so, at some times the submissive will be totally focused on the Dominant, and unavailable to others, at other times contact wiht the DOminant would be screened by the submissive
<BlackOrchid> yes on both sides, Nichola
<drauma{MzTyger}> the key to discriminating which is in effect is the focus of the submissive...
<BlackOrchid> the rules that set up respect and deference are intended to reflect favourably on the Dominant
<LadyNichola> Actually, now that I think aout it... that comes close to being a universal value
<BlackOrchid> what does, N?
<LadyNichola> "slave" Submissive" or "toy"...
<LadyNichola> they all are reflections of their
<LadyNichola> "Mistress, Master, Top... or whatever
<`abi> is the reverse also true?
<LadyNichola> dont get ahead of the pack abi...
<LadyNichola> havent established that the first statement is true LOL
* `abi chuckles and returns to a pace behind
<LadyNichola> yet
<drauma{MzTyger}> isnt that the proper role of a fox LadyNichola?
<BlackOrchid> and yet we don't often agree on the differences between "slave" and "submissive" (as evidenced by recent email list discussions)
<jewel`{F}> as a collared sub i personally feel that all my words and actions reflect on Master
<spirited_sassy> i agree jewel`{F}
<`abi> perhaps the very choice of language is part of the reflection BlackOrchid
<BlackOrchid> could be, abi
<private-beauty> as do i jewel
<LadyNichola> True BlackOrchid...but I guess if you're looking for a universal protocol... you have to find a universal value... that this protocol defines (if that makes sense)
<jewel`{F}> i know at times i can get very smart mouthed, but i always try to behave in a way that Master would approve of
<BlackOrchid> though I think that choice of language and the related reflections are sometimes a matter of expectation, which is very subjective
<delyssa> don't our words and actions reflect on anyone we're associated/linked with? Not just Masters/Dom/mes, but also friends, etc.?
<BlackOrchid> I agree, delyssa
<LadyNichola> not really delyssa
<private-beauty> i don't think so either delyssa
<drauma{MzTyger}> not to the same degree delyssa
<LadyNichola> are My actions a reflection on people that I disrespect?
<BlackOrchid> true, not to the same degree
<LadyNichola> or dislike
<LadyNichola> or who have had no role in shaping my behavior
<LadyNichola> (like a teacher or a parent for example)
<BlackOrchid> one's interaction with people they don't respect is often subject of consideration for those who might interact with the person who is subject to that disrespect
* drauma{MzTyger} blinkz
<LadyNichola> ouch... that one gave me a headache BlackOrchid
<spirited_sassy> huh?
* BlackOrchid explains
<private-beauty> often times my friends because their relationship dynamics are different so are their protocols
<arhiannah> i don't interact with people i don't respect...solves that problem nicely...however, i don't hold it against others to associate with those same people....i'm no one's keeper
<BlackOrchid> I have seen situations in which protcols from a sub were specifically dropped because of a Dom/me's disrespect for someone
<LadyNichola> ohhh..
<delyssa> I didn't say that it has the same level of impact, but we are judged (to a certain extent) by the company that we keep - as unfair as that is sometimes.
<arhiannah> agreed del
<LadyNichola> Like saying don't call "joe" Sir Joe.... because he's an asshole?
<BlackOrchid> exactly, N... and I can think of a specific example of that particular case, too
<LadyNichola> I can think of examples where _I've_ said that
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, if one isnt willing to submit to him, and isnt in a fealty relationship wiht him, the honorific of Sir is perhaps inapropriate
<QTIP> i belong to a number of local groups. there are people in those groups i don't much care for (for whatever reason). i still say hello and goodbye to them. i can't see being rude out of hand. the way i act is best described as "cooly polite."
<BlackOrchid> in that case the person wanted to be called Sir X by everybody around him but he was not well respected by many, so quite a few people chose not to call him "Sir" X and only "X" from that point
<BlackOrchid> in other words, the protocol of referring to that person by a chosen honourific was dropped
<delyssa> I might be 'respectful' to someone, but that doesn't mean I like them or enjoy their company. Acting respectful if the situation calls for it is not the same as really respecting the person. But, having said that, I find myself very shy about using Sir, Madame, etc. even with people I have immense respect for.
<LadyNichola> Generally speaking, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt when I first meet them
<G`Kar> hello all
<QTIP> doesn't showing respect (even being cooly polite) reflect self-respect?
<drauma{MzTyger}> in the vanilla world, it is appropriate to call the leader of a musical group Maestro when in rehearsal; but, perhaps not at the grocery store
<BlackOrchid> quite so, but my point was that protocols can be used to withdraw respect as much as show it
<LadyNichola> So if you say.... I am "Sir Spotty"... I'll go with it
<G`Kar> in the vanilla world, ???
<LadyNichola> behave like an ass...
<G`Kar> i though we shared the same world or am i mistaken ?
<LadyNichola> and it's just "spotty"
<drauma{MzTyger}> not for protocols, they alter slightly
<jewel`{F}> i would think that if someone is expecting any and all to address them with an honourific they are a bit full of themselves, just my opinion but those that demand to be called Sir etc usually are the ones that don't deserve it
<BlackOrchid> I would agree with that, jewel... and that's why the once-accepted protocol was dropped
<spirited_sassy> i think the honorifics must be earned
<arhiannah> amen sassy!
<BlackOrchid> I eventually came to the same conclusion, sassy
<G`Kar> god you people are idiots no wonder they say bdsmers are screwed up
<drauma{MzTyger}> if we were a tight community that would be possible, but we are not, we are many insular communitys
<BlackOrchid> whatEverrrrrr
<LadyNichola> hmm seems that the Gorean point of view is slightly different
* `abi smiles at the fine example of how protocol or lack there-of reflects on the user
<drauma{MzTyger}> his take on it anyway
<private-beauty> and doesn't He make a fine point for honorifics being earned?
<QTIP> "thanks for sharing" ;-)
<BlackOrchid> indeed, beauty
<drauma{MzTyger}> well, perhaps he has earned something in the way of respect, in his own circle
<LadyNichola> This "earned thing... is a little troubling...
<LadyNichola> adn drauma makes a good point there
<arhiannah> yes..voted most likely to have his head up his ass
<private-beauty> why so ?
<drauma{MzTyger}> I view it as a dynamic
<BlackOrchid> I've seen many people in emails use capitalization as a form of online protocol, but I don't believe in it because I feel that should be earned as much as in-person protocol
<LadyNichola> Well, look...I feel that I've earned respect ten times over
<LadyNichola> I really don't feel I should have to jump through hoops and pull out testimonials
<jewel`{F}> There are many Dominants that i will only use the Sir or Ma'am in greeting but nothing past that, then there are those that are always Sir or Ma'am, those are the ones that have earned both Master's and my respect by showing Him and i respect as well
<LadyNichola> just so some newbie greenhorn will "honor" me by calling me Ma'am
<private-beauty> i think what is being talked about here with earning is the sub honouring the Dom
<BlackOrchid> but N, why should I refer to you as "Lady" if I am not playing with you or submitting to you?
<LadyNichola> because _I_ consider it polite conduct.
<spirited_sassy> or me as i don't even know you
<private-beauty> no LadyNichola but, then You would not expect honourifics from a stranger to You would You?
<spirited_sassy> i would be polite
<BlackOrchid> that's a different matter.... if you ask me to call you by that title we can negotiate that
<LadyNichola> No negotiation BlackOrchid...
<LadyNichola> when you meet someone called "John"
<LadyNichola> you say, "Do you prefer John or Jack?"
<LadyNichola> and if they say "Jack"
<LadyNichola> you call them Jack
<LadyNichola> Seems to Me basic manners..
<`abi> I'm not sure it's quite the same LadyNichola ... because John or Jack is not an honourific
<BlackOrchid> Maybe that's true, N, but that's not an honourific. it's a name
<private-beauty> i don't think that is the same as Master/Mistress title
<spirited_sassy> i agree
<LadyNichola> "Jack is a notorious domesticity"
<BlackOrchid> zactly, beauty
<LadyNichola> for John"
<`abi> perhaps another example would be a Doctor ... do you automatically call him Doctor Mike
<`abi> on the assumption that he has earned the title somehow
<drauma{MzTyger}> in the clinical setting, you should
<BlackOrchid> If he is my doctor I would. If he is not he is just Mike
<drauma{MzTyger}> int he library, no
<private-beauty> ummm to be called a Doctor you would have had to have earned the title with years of schooling and practice
<drauma{MzTyger}> In a funny way it is a courtesy to him to NOt call him Dr, it saves him from embarising querys from non-patients about their ailments
<slave_earl> `abi, it costs nothing to assume the title is earned, if one finds out it is not deserved. it can be dropped
<LadyNichola> There you go slave_earl
<LadyNichola> my point precisely
<private-beauty> but what are we talking about then ?
<drauma{MzTyger}> some titles are 'given' pejoritivly, for example, 'Professor'
<private-beauty> Sir of Madam? Master/Mistress?
<BlackOrchid> My opinion is that unless I am honouring you for some reason, you should be referred to by name, not honourific
<slave_earl> private-beauty, Sir or Ma'am
<`abi> I think that it does perhaps cost something ... it might just cost a devaluing of the honourific if it's thrown around without regard for it's validity
<BlackOrchid> that's why I chose to use it sparingly, abi
<LadyNichola> A fair point abi and BlackOrchid...
<private-beauty> the afore i mention are out of politeness
<LadyNichola> (and you know that I agree with you both in many respects)...
<BlackOrchid> I think using honourifics without having earned them can devalue their use
<melissa{G}> one could also look at the free use of the honorific as devaluing that to one's own Master or Mistress.....
<BlackOrchid> thank you, N
<jewel`{F}> so am i or others in the retail or some other sort of service job devaluing it by calling customers Sir or Ma'am?
<LadyNichola> agreed melissa
<`abi> on the other hand ... I also think that a certain tone is set by the presence of protocols
<LadyNichola> There we go abi
<BlackOrchid> jewel, those are protocols in a different context - which is non-scene related service
<drauma{MzTyger}> I once met a slave who insisted on using an onoriffic in every sentance when we were in casual conversation, it got tiresome after a few minutes
<`abi> ...but I'm not sure it works without a structure to support it LadyNichola
<arhiannah> totally different situation jewel...i get called Ma'am all the time at work...and it's because they don't know me by name...to them i'm just a voice on the phone
<melissa{G}> Guapo was just saying the same thing, drauma{MzTyger}
<LadyNichola> To be honest with you guys.. I used to be a real Martinet about this...
<BlackOrchid> what's a Martinet??
<drauma{MzTyger}> MzTyger detests being called Ma'am, if you as a sales clerk were to do that you would be instructed not to.
<LadyNichola> polite word for bitch
<BlackOrchid> oh, thanks for the definition, N
<LadyNichola> I used to be a real bitch about honorifics
<LadyNichola> and then one day, I just stopped...
<LadyNichola> I figured if you weren't smart enough to see that a) I liked being called that and b) had earned it..
* BlackOrchid sighs in relief
<jewel`{F}> Master is a stickler for them with in guidelines He has for me
<`abi> I think that we have tried to carry forward some of the protocols of Old Guard Leather, without the structure that made them work in that culture
<drauma{MzTyger}> I would think the honorific that was DEMANDED would somehow have less worth than one that was genuinely meant
<LadyNichola> That (to bring the argument full circle)... is a reflection on them...
<LadyNichola> not Me.
<BlackOrchid> quite so, drauma
<arhiannah> but....earning someone else's respect hasn't necessarily earned mine Nichola...all i know of you is what i've seen online and in your posts to the list...i don't know you personally
<BlackOrchid> Nichola, should you be considered to have earned an honourific to the general community if you've earned it with a number of people??
<private-beauty> agrees with arhiannah
<LadyNichola> I don't really care to be truthful
<BlackOrchid> that's my point, arhiannah
<LadyNichola> sorry... ambiguous
<LadyNichola> To be truthfull
<LadyNichola> I don't care whether I'm honored or not... by people I don't know well
<spirited_sassy> so having not met You LadyNichola you would expect me to call you Ma'am??
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<spirited_sassy> or Mistress
* drauma{MzTyger} thinks perhaps Lady...
<melissa{G}> should't everyone be treated with common courtesy and respect until they show that they do not deserve it?
<LadyNichola> I don't "expect" people to call me anything
<BlackOrchid> so Nichola, I feel I've talked with you a number of times though I may not know you "well" (that's very subjective) - would you expect me to call you by an honourific just because we're familiar to each other?
<LadyNichola> However... beware...
<melissa{G}> that, at least can be done without an honorific
<spirited_sassy> beware of what?
<jewel`{F}> that it can melissa{G}
<LadyNichola> I'll be judging you, just as much as you are judging Me... it's a two way street
<BlackOrchid> fair enough, N
<BlackOrchid> I think perhaps the subject of protocol was too wide. we've only scratched the surface of protocols with honourifics when we could have talked about so many more
<drauma{MzTyger}> its always wide
<LadyNichola> That I agree with
<`abi> well, perhaps the topic next week can be "Protocol: The Next Generation"
<BlackOrchid> LOL @ abi
<LadyNichola> lol
<spirited_sassy> lol
<drauma{MzTyger}> not DS9?
<melissa{G}> lol
<arhiannah> lol
* BlackOrchid groans
<QTIP> does D/s9 work better for you BlackOrchid?
<private-beauty> perhaps we can go where no Dom or sub has gone before
<drauma{MzTyger}> LOL!
<melissa{G}> just PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.... don't bring Kirk!
<BlackOrchid> LOL
<drauma{MzTyger}> not even spock?
<`abi> I'm sure Modbot will pass on to Bernie that we'd like to continue this discussion
<BlackOrchid> this is degenerating quickly
<BlackOrchid> Or maybe it's de-Generations-ing quickly (ducking)
<melissa{G}> *groan*
<arhiannah> beam me up scotty
<LadyNichola> Just saw the star trek episode when they were "thralls"
<jewel`{F}> it is definately getting Lost In Space
<melissa{G}> sub-space?
<drauma{MzTyger}> eeeek, nooooooo
<melissa{G}> hehehe
<LadyNichola> oh gods..
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<BlackOrchid> OMG - that was horrible, melissa!! <groan>