October 8 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<@kathryn_kw> pk.. i guess the discussion can get underway
<@kathryn_kw> this will be logged and put on the ehbc website so anyone concerned with anonymity should change their nicks or leave :)
<@kathryn_kw> Ok the topic is " How Far is too Far "
<@kathryn_kw> basicly about health and safety issues but also can touch on responsiubility and consequences as well
<candie```> hi `abi :)
<Sweetone{LT}> i would start by saying it's when you cross the line of keeping your charge emotionally and physically safe
<@kathryn_kw> ok but sometimes as subs we can also cross the line
* dalian agrees with Sweetone{LT}
* dalian nods
<@kathryn_kw> eg pushing ourselves farther than perhaps its wise to go
<@kathryn_kw> its not just the Dom/me here
<@kathryn_kw> oops fart= far
<@kathryn_kw> sheesh
<@kathryn_kw> sometimes when things get too intense we may go further than we should eg regarding health and safety
<@kathryn_kw> this also includes mental and emotional health
<@kathryn_kw> not just physical
<Sweetone{LT}> but if the dom is there to bring you back, is that too far?
<@kathryn_kw> eg not using a safe word
<@kathryn_kw> possibly
<@kathryn_kw> but here again it will vary with individual's and partners
<@kathryn_kw> what may be too far for one person/couple may not be with someone else ?
<Sweetone{LT}> exactly, that's why i used the line of emotional/physical safety
<Sweetone{LT}> because each is different
<@kathryn_kw> for example .. a sub may have abuse issues.. eg past rape
<Stevius> kathryn could you elaborate on what is far
<@kathryn_kw> and even in playh it could trigger emotional and mental nasties tha may have long range negative effects
<Sweetone{LT}> but if the dom is there to bring her back, then there may be no lasting harm
<@kathryn_kw> Stevius it can vary.. from edge play to humiliation etc
<Sweetone{LT}> and it may actually help to get over a hurdle
<@kathryn_kw> if the Dom/me is capable
<dalian> or qualified
<@kathryn_kw> other things can be pushing phobias/ fears
<Sweetone{LT}> too far, may simply be pushing too fast for something
<@kathryn_kw> how many subs or Dom/mes are professional phychiatrists or counsellors who could try to make sure no damage ensued ?
<Sweetone{LT}> before the sub is ready
<@kathryn_kw> good point
<@kathryn_kw> ok... what about responisibility and consequences ?
<Sweetone{LT}> do they have to be certified to be there for the sub afterwards? many times it may simply be a matter of holding the sub, or saying reassuring things to her
<@kathryn_kw> not only to ourseves as individuals but to society and the bdsm community at large ?
<dalian> i think it depends on the issue being pushed
<@kathryn_kw> exactly dalian
<@kathryn_kw> Sweetone and dalian you both have gpod points
<@kathryn_kw> but who draws the line and where ?
<Sweetone{LT}> how do you mean to the community?
* `vixie peeks in
<Sweetone{LT}> why does there have to be a line drawn?
<@kathryn_kw> ok.. if i get injured and require a doctor'
<Sweetone{LT}> isn't that part of the journey?
<@kathryn_kw> s care
<@kathryn_kw> assualt charges could be laid and negative media covrerage
<Sweetone{LT}> well, injury can happen at any time...this is a high risk, high reward lifestyle
<`vixie> but others don't see that Sweetone{LT}
<@kathryn_kw> bdsm acts including humiliation on a public street or non bdsm friendly location where a lot of people are around ?
<Sweetone{LT}> so, we are living this now to please others?
<`vixie> no, i'm just saying that others don't see this lifestle the way we do
<@kathryn_kw> Sweetone .. what my point is thagt unless we have a country of our own where we can set our own rules and laws
<@kathryn_kw> we have to be concerned about other people .. not just ourselves as individuals
<@kathryn_kw> how will our actions reflect on the bdsm community at large
<Sweetone{LT}> most of what we do is in the privacy of our own homes...
<@kathryn_kw> what will the consequences be ?
<@kathryn_kw> eg the police coming down hard on fet nights and play parties ?
<@kathryn_kw> it can and has happened
<Sweetone{LT}> what does that have to do with going too far?
<@kathryn_kw> public backlash and negative media attention can get nasty knows it ,,the Master sees as the birth of a beautifull butterfly)
<@kathryn_kw> going too far as in consequences and responsibility
<dalian> maybe for simplicities sake...we should keep the issue to private interactions? knows it ,,the Master sees as the birth of a beautifull butterfly)
<@kathryn_kw> private makes it a lot easier agreed
<@kathryn_kw> but issues have come up re public play which is why i wanted to include it here ":)
<dalian> perhaps going too far is simply when the Dom/sub loses sight of each other in any interaction
<@kathryn_kw> agreed
<@kathryn_kw> so how do we avoid that or what do we do to fix it if it does happen ?
<`vixie> how so dalian?
<@kathryn_kw> brb please continue
<@`abi> anyone have any thoughts on the difference between pushing a limit and going too far?
<dalian> what i mean is...when the Dom/sub focuses on what they do simply for their own individual end...and not as a combined effort...i feel that at that point, the people involved are no longer taking "charge" or acting responsibly in each others interests
<Sweetone{LT}> perhaps kathryn_kw, responsibility and consequences of public play are another topic??
<dalian> good question abi...i'm almost drawn to associating it with pushing limits too far
<@kathryn_kw> back
<@`abi> and how does one determine that dalian?
<Stevius> abi, what role does pushing a limit have, is it important to d/s play
<@kathryn_kw> keeping in mind.. safe sane and consensual
<`vixie> i had a limit pushed once too far and when i had surgery the following week i had to make up a reason why i had bruises on my body so they wouldn't ask my parents
<Sweetone{LT}> can we throw out that saying??? ssc...it means little
<@kathryn_kw> who draws the line and where. or is it in a constant state of change ?
<dalian> to be honest...i don't have a conclusive answer abi
<@kathryn_kw> why does it mean little Sweetone ?
<@kathryn_kw> too who ?
<Sweetone{LT}> because safe is relative to those involved..there is no standard...sane, well, the same thing...the only thing that really applies is informed consent
* `abi smiles at dalian...I'm not sure there is one....I think that's why we push limits with caution...so that we don't cross the line accidently
<@kathryn_kw> and yes vixie.. conequences :)
<Sweetone{LT}> anyone looking at what we do can say we are neither safe, nor sane
<@kathryn_kw> lol
<tndrsub> that is where the informed comes in Sweetone{LT},,
<Sweetone{LT}> informed consent
<@kathryn_kw> true some people would consider anything we do as being insane :)
<tndrsub> then we make our decisions based on that,,as to our limits and how far to go,,consensually,,
<@kathryn_kw> informed consent .. to me implies that we are aware of the potential effects.. responsibilities and consequences
<@`abi> and yes Stevius...pushing limits is an important part of d/s play to me, albeit not to everyone...it's part of what helps me to discover myself and to grow...but my personal safety is also important, so I'm careful not to cross that line
<@kathryn_kw> that is a key point abi
<tndrsub> that is exactly what informed consent is,,weighing the risks vs benifits
<@kathryn_kw> buthow many people are all that informed ?
<Sweetone{LT}> why aren't they?
<tndrsub> any who scene that arent are the ones who get hurt
<@kathryn_kw> but who does the informing.. is it a mutual negotiation and learning processs
<@kathryn_kw> how many of us know those who will not negotiate ?
<@kathryn_kw> i know a few
<Sweetone{LT}> i know of some
<@kathryn_kw> eg you consent to be a sub or slave
<@kathryn_kw> you consent to anything and everything regardless
<@kathryn_kw> how safe and informed is that ?
<tndrsub> i can only speak for myself,,i make my hard limits clear,,any areas i am unsure of i speak with people in the lifestyle i rspect for concell,,and if i am in doubt i say know
<tndrsub> sorry,,i meant say no
<@kathryn_kw> :)
<Sweetone{LT}> but you only consent after you are informed of what that life entails.
<@kathryn_kw> how many know of those who will not allow any limits?
<tndrsub> indeed not,,growth occurs after stretching oneself,,making mistakes is also another way of how we learn in life
<@kathryn_kw> again.. i know a few :)
<Sweetone{LT}> kathryn_kw...there is a difference in playing with a partner on occassion, and living the d/s lifestyle
<dalian> i should hope so
<tndrsub> i luckily,,maybe because i am fairly new,know nobody without limit that truly lives the lifelstyle
<@kathryn_kw> of course there is Sweetone :)
<Sweetone{LT}> negotiations and limits and things like that take on a different meaning in a d/s relationship
<tndrsub> indeed
<Stevius> abi, if pushing limits is an important part of bdsm, then they aren't really limits, strictly speaking
<@kathryn_kw> can you elaborate on the differences Sweetone ?
<Sweetone{LT}> it is about a journey...not doing everything all at once...
<tndrsub> agreed
<Sweetone{LT}> it's about growing together and doing new things as they are ready to...it's about keeping your partner emotionally and physically safe, yet experiencing new and wonderful things
<@kathryn_kw> very good points so far Sweetone
<@`abi> yes Stevius they really are limits....and some are hard limits...but even those that eventually shift and move still serve to deliniate the edges of my comfort zone
<Sweetone{LT}> there is no negotiation once the collar goes on...the dom has made his committment...and will keep his charge safe...there is no need to worry if he will do this or that...there is responsible control
<@kathryn_kw> sounds very good on the surface... but
<@kathryn_kw> i wonder how much of that is realistic.. for many people ?
<Sweetone{LT}> this is not a fantasy...it does happen...there are a few of us that actually live that way
<@kathryn_kw> but i do like the concept
<dalian> depends entirely on the two involved...things change sometimes and that is not to be the case
<Sweetone{LT}> it is a reality kathryn_kw
<tndrsub> its like anything else in life kathryn_kw,,the few that are not true to the lifestyle and its responsibilites make it bad for others
<@kathryn_kw> for some people Sweetone .. i agree
<@kathryn_kw> but not for all
<Sweetone{LT}> no, it's not...but not all want it either
<@kathryn_kw> yes they do tendr
<@kathryn_kw> good point dalian
<dalian> i want it....but there are very few who are actually capable of taking on such immense responsibility
<Sweetone{LT}> that is true dalian
<tndrsub> that is where patience pays off dalian
<dalian> that's what they tell me....i'm still waiting....lol
<@kathryn_kw> and thwre is where the responsibiities and consequences come in
<Sweetone{LT}> but i think that is partly where mentoring comes in
<@`abi> the concept falters only when you realize that you are
*always* in control of your destiny ... forfeiting that control to another is simply making a different decision...the relinquishing of control is still *your* decision
<@kathryn_kw> " they can make it bad for others "
<@`abi> and hence you are responsible for whatever happens to you as a result of that decision
<@kathryn_kw> again.. good points abi
<@kathryn_kw> any toehr thoughts ?
<@kathryn_kw> oops
<@kathryn_kw> other
<dalian> i think abi said it in a nutshell
<tndrsub> agreed
*s_syrian@ppp-154.tct.net (Stevius) CtrlF1 whois; ShiftF8 ping
* `abi chuckles....the advantage of being a nut :)
<@kathryn_kw> lol abi
<@kathryn_kw> huggles
<dalian> maybe to determine how far is too far is to consider what too far would be for each of us individually
<@kathryn_kw> ok and how do we do that ?
<@`abi> I agree dalian ... and especially not to look to others for that standard
<Sweetone{LT}> but that will change as the relationship progresses
<tndrsub> indeed we all have different likes and dislikes,,fears and quests
<Stevius^> Sweetone{LT} has an interesting solution...in her world there are no limits
<@kathryn_kw> no limits ?
<dalian> no limits is an ideal i would like to attain...however, i have met no one i would place that much trust in...period!
<@kathryn_kw> i know the feeling
<Sweetone{LT}> i have.. :))
<@kathryn_kw> :)
<dalian> but no limits is how i would feel most fulfilled in a D/s relationship
<Stevius^> it is an ideal
<@kathryn_kw> well you have found one of the rare ones Sweetone :)
<@`abi> sure she does Stevius ... she has just determined in advance that they won't be crossed
<tndrsub> takes a majical combination
<Sweetone{LT}> yes i have kathryn_kw :))
<@kathryn_kw> ahhhh but abi that is still putting some limits on a situation is it not ?
<@kathryn_kw> :)
<@`abi> no kathryn ...it's choosing a situation in which you know your hard limits won't be challenged
<Sweetone{LT}> boundaries are different from limits abi
<Sweetone{LT}> limits are simply a measure of the here and now for the dom to chart a course
<Sweetone{LT}> they are a signpost
<@kathryn_kw> ahhh ok.. how do you define boundaries as opposed to limits
<Sweetone{LT}> boundaries such as things that are illegal don't get crossed
<@`abi> your definition of a boundary would be my definition of a hard limit Sweetone{LT}
<@kathryn_kw> i think many of us use the terms interchanagbly
<Sweetone{LT}> they are mutually agreed upon
<@kathryn_kw> i agree abi
<@`abi> although "legality" isn't always my measuring stick
* dalian chuckles
<@kathryn_kw> :)
<@kathryn_kw> ok
<@kathryn_kw> so basicly we can agree that boundaries for some are equal to hard limits for others ?
<Sweetone{LT}> well, for the most part, boundaries/hard limits are usually common sense things...
<@kathryn_kw> :)
<dalian> are they?
<@`abi> there is nothing common about sense Sweetone{LT}
<Sweetone{LT}> that is true abi
<dalian> cept for dead things and children maybe
<@kathryn_kw> errr depends on whose definitions of common sense we use :)
<Sweetone{LT}> but that is illegal dalian...
<dalian> k....i stand corrected
<@kathryn_kw> a lot of what we do would be considered illegal in the courts
<@kathryn_kw> :) #bdsm-kw
* ^vixie glares at her ghost
<Sweetone{LT}> if one has a medical condition, that becomes a boundary
<Sweetone{LT}> that is pretty much common sense...no?
<dalian> good point Sweetone{LT}
<tndrsub> and should be spoken of upfront Sw
<@kathryn_kw> eg if i whip and mark you i will be charged by the police if they desire even though it is consensual
<Sweetone{LT}> not really kathryn_kw...
<Sweetone{LT}> if they have no case, why are they going to bother?
<dalian> sensationalism for one
<@`abi> I think there is a danger in trying to universally determine hard limits
<@kathryn_kw> political points in the media
<becky{BH2}> hiyas brat ;o)
<^brat{SteelBlue}> hi becky{BH2} :)
<@`abi> one of the most dangerous things for newcomers is to feel that there is some standard they must meet
<@kathryn_kw> its still assault under the law sweetone :)
<@kathryn_kw> fine line but its there
<@kathryn_kw> agreed big time abi
<Sweetone{LT}> well, then boxing is also illegal by that standard
<Sweetone{LT}> and fencing...
<@kathryn_kw> should be
<@kathryn_kw> like i said.. a fine line
<dalian> true abi...maybe because as a newbie...we feel as if we have to measure up
<@kathryn_kw> sigh
<@kathryn_kw> and as newbies we didnt know a lot
<@kathryn_kw> other than from books.. the net etc
<@kathryn_kw> not what rl was really like
<tndrsub> i must be doing something wrong then,,as i newbie all i know is that i know nothing other than my hard limits today
<@kathryn_kw> lol tendr
<@`abi> no...you're doing everything right tndrsub ... as long as your expectations are your own and not someone else's then you're doing fine :)
<dalian> it's been a wonderful journey on the path of learning...and i take it as that...life is a series of teachings
<@kathryn_kw> anyeay .. its getting time to wrap this up... many thanks to all for participating... not many people here tonighgt
<tndrsub> thanks abi,,i am going on only my expectations,,not trying to live up to someones elses
<@kathryn_kw> but some good points were raised
<tndrsub> indeed
<dalian> thanks kath for moderating...great discussion
<@kathryn_kw> who was logging this.?
<Sweetone{LT}> thanks kathryn_kw
<@kathryn_kw> can you email it to bernie ?
<Sweetone{LT}> i did...i think...
<Sweetone{LT}> yup, will do
<@kathryn_kw> thanks for participating Sweetone
<@kathryn_kw> many thanks all
<Stevius^> thank you kathryn
<tndrsub> thank you everyone,,as always its been a learning experience
<@kathryn_kw> we now return you to our reguarlily unsheduled channel programming :)