October 3 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our regular Sunday night discussion.
* Kilted_One spanks vixen{KO} with a @! *fwap*
<BernieRoehl> Between now and 10 pm, please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages.
<BernieRoehl> Also keep in mind that the discussion is being logged, and will be posted to our web site.
<BernieRoehl> If you wish to say something, but still remain anonymous, please change to a different nickname.
<BernieRoehl> Our topic for tonight is "Balancing Sexual Submission with Sexual Equality".
<BernieRoehl> It's nice to see that we have a mixture of Doms and subs here tonight, as well as a mix of males and females, so we should have a range of perspectives.
* vixen{KO} would like the topic clarified a bit, if You would, Sir...
<BernieRoehl> Of course, vixen.
<vixen{KO}> thank You
<BernieRoehl> The person who suggested the topic was having a bit of a struggle...
<BernieRoehl> between her beliefs in sexual equality (male/female) and her desires to submit to her (male) partner.
<BernieRoehl> Being in a relationship in which a man was absolutely in charge (her words) was enormously satisfying to her, yet (in her words) completely inconsistent with her strongly-held feminist beliefs.
<BernieRoehl> So the question is... how have others in similar situations reconciled the two?
* vixen{KO} nods and can identify somewhat having also had such thoughts at times in the past as well.
<victoria_angel> that can be most difficult, especially when there is also a marriage involved
<Kilted_One> is the difference not in that one is consentually giving up something?
<Mstr_Jim> Thats a contradiction in itself...feminist beliefs and submissive as well??
<BernieRoehl> Is it a contradiction?  Perhaps.
<abigaille> I don't see it as a contradiction Mstr_Jim
<Kilted_One> I dont think so Jim....you need to have the rights in order to be able to give them up
* vixen{KO} doesn't think they are a contradiction, Sir...
<slave_c{MJ}> how can one be truly submissive if they are a feminist??
<abigaille> I suppose it depends on what feminism means to you slavec
<slave_c{MJ}> when i decide to be a submissive, i give up my "rights" as a female -- not literally of course, but as far the relationship is concerned
<vixen{KO}> just because i consentually submit to my Master and consider myself His property, doesn't mean i submit to the rest of the populace
<victoria_angel> you have a choice to whom you are submissive to and to whom you aren't....
<abigaille> to me it means being free from societal dictatons about how I will live my life
<slave_c{MJ}> i beg for my Master to take control of me
<Kilted_One> but that means that you had them to give up c
<slave_c{MJ}> the key word is not "had" to  -- i chose to because i am submissive by nature
<slave_c{MJ}> therefore, i am not a "feminist" by the definition of that word
<Kilted_One> it also means how you interact with society as a whole not just in your personal relationship
<slave_c{MJ}> i believe they contradict each other
<victoria_angel> slave_c - i am too, but i do not take that to work, for instance
<abigaille> I'd say you are slave-c...if you can use the word "chose"
<slave_c{MJ}> ahh,  work is a totally different matter
<slave_c{MJ}> what we do with our professional lives, is separate and apart from our personal lives
<Kilted_One> is it?
<abigaille> feminists did not fight for women to be one thing...they fought for us to have a choice
<slave_c{MJ}> well, by the definition of tonight's discussion at least
<trufriend> does it have to be?  are we fighting the stereotyping?
<slave_c{MJ}> but we DO have a choice -- to be submissive to our partner when we are with Him
<victoria_angel> not really slave_c - you can have a 'submissive personality' which carries in traits and actions everywhere, but you don't necessarily 'submit' to co-workers occupationally....
<SiRmac> maybe we need a definition of feminist
<slave_c{MJ}> and then we give up our "feminist" freedom stuff
<abigaille> I dont think I've given up anything slave...I've gained
<slave_c{MJ}> no, i am not suggesting that i (we) submit to our co-workers.  That is a separate life
<slave_c{MJ}> but i agree with you
<slave_c{MJ}> when i am submissive to my Master, i have everything i wish
<abigaille> I have chosen to take something...my submission...and I definitely define myself as a feminist
<slave_c{MJ}> i do not need the feminist stuff to be happy
<SiRmac> what does being a feminist today mean? 
<`zee> hello Neighbours and neighbourettes!
* BernieRoehl has a dictionary handy
* `zee quietly takes her kneel to the side
<BernieRoehl> According to Funk and Wagnalls, feminism is...
<bliss100> feminist...the practice of social and economic equality for women
<trufriend> i was told something rather interesting yesterday by a customer.....she spoke of women being backseat leaders.....i thought a lot about that and i tend to agree with her...although her reference was to dance, i think it is applicable to everyday functions too
<bliss100> oops sorry BR
<BernieRoehl> "A doctrine advoctating the granting of the same social, political and economic rights to women as the ones granted to men"
<`zee> to me the feminist movement is about having women be who they are..and to be proud of that
<slave_c{MJ}> agreed -- so what does submission have to do with this?  we choose submission over our feminist "rights" because we feel the need or desire
<abigaille> no slavec...we choose submission because of our feminist rights
<BernieRoehl> Yes -- and since men have the right to be either Dominant or submissive, women should have that same freedom.
<victoria_angel> we also have the rights to exercise our submissiveness, freedom, etc....
<slave_c{MJ}> i must disagree abigaille -- we choose submission because it is WHO we are
<bliss100> may i ask, what is the opposite of feminism?
<trufriend> not to forget the male submissives here.....could we include this...that every person has a right to be themselves, without fear of being cast aside or ridiculed?
<slave_c{MJ}> and WHAT we are
<victoria_angel> yippee BR
<abigaille> that's right slavec...and feminism allows us to be what we are
<`zee> submission strengthens that within us..whether it be female or male.. 
<Kilted_One> if one doesnt have equality then it cannot be exchanged in a D/s relationship....and it only has to be exchanged within the relationship....outwith the relationship one is still expected to be ttreated as an equal
<victoria_angel> bliss - my Sir - said (jokingly) masculism....
<slave_c{MJ}> agreed zee
<slave_c{MJ}> and if i may add, GIVES us strength  :))
<SiRmac> in a D/s relationship are we agreed that both D and s are equally powerful?
<bliss100> but isnt the opposite that the male has all the rights and power?
<`zee> equal but not indentical... as in our steps create a dance..steps the same create not a fluid movement
<Sire> I agree Kilted-One
<victoria_angel> SiRmac - the submissive has power enough to control the D/s sides
<`zee> victoria_angel.. the power of each takes it turns at every given moment... i don't think any O/one has the ultimate all the time!
<abigaille> I would say SirMac..that more than equality...an ideal D/s relationship has "balance"
<SiRmac> agreed on the exchange of power 'zee
* bliss100 is thinking submission is the relinquishing of feminism, of equal rights
<Kilted_One> mac would you say that in a tpe that both parties have the same level of power?
<SiRmac> no KO but the ultimate power is equal. The power of choice.
<Sire> (nusha) only with that one (or more) person who you choose to submit to, not society at large.
<victoria_angel> submission is a consentual agreement as to the terms of 'power', where some of the partners need either more or less control to satisfy the relationship
<Sire> (nusha) I'm a bit confused about this "ultimate power is equal" stuff
<`zee> bliss100.. submission should give the ultimate right of submission to you..not giving it up but giving you the right to chose to
<Kilted_One> is that power or rights mac?
<bliss100> dont understand Zee
* vixen{KO} ^5's `zee
<victoria_angel> bliss - you have the right to submit....feminist by definition
<bliss100> i understand how u have the right to submit, but when u do u surender ur rights and become like the traditional baptist housewife who never had it
<SiRmac> I'm saying you can be equal in a D/s reltionship because both D/s choose their part/role. Their right, their power to choose. 
<bliss100> lol nothing agasinst baptists LOL
<`zee> bliss100.. you are not giving something up..as in losing it..you are taking that right and doing with it what is your right to do..the feminist movement was initally for that until others with hidden agendas took control ..imho
<Mstr_Jim> agrres with SirMac  
<trufriend> bliss, you phrased that once to me as a "strong submissive", a person who chooses to submit but can easily stand on their own
<Sire> nusha:  I disagree SiRmac.  I didn't choose my role...it was chosen for me by the powers that be
<Mstr_Jim> oops ( I chose to spell poorly :))
* vixen{KO} sighs, having been brought up in that very strict Baptist mode
<bliss100> i said that tru? LOL
<slave_c{MJ}> but a TRUE submissive (i believe) chooses his/her role and thereby gives up the "power" and the feminsm stuff
<Kilted_One> I think you maybe confusing the "right" to chose and giving up "power" mac
* abigaille always thought you looked particularly prayerful vixen :)
<trufriend> to me, the 'act' of submission does not mean we leave our soul and our brain at the door....
<bliss100> i dont see how surrendering your paycheque to your dom makes u just as much a feminist as the next housewife
<slave_c{MJ}> agreed 100% trufriend
<trufriend> nor do we leave our option of choice there
<abigaille> someone would trip over it for sure tru
<victoria_angel> bliss, i am a housewife, mother, employee.... and yet i too struggle to give up full control when my Sir snaps his fingers
<Sire> You choose to submit to a particular Master, you don't choose to be submissive...that's something that should be innate in you.
<trufriend> yup!
<vixen{KO}> it's the old being on the knees position that's natural abigaille.....have always been submissive but a strong woman.
* trufriend smiles at abi
<slave_c{MJ}> surrendering your paycheque is not a necessary part of submission!!  There is still a real world out there
<bliss100> hmm slave
<Sire> nusha: So WHAT is a necessary part of submission then?
* lyxanna looks at it this way...feminism was the fight for women to be able to choose, no matter what their sex, to do what they wanted....and if that means i want to submit, so be it...if that means i want to single parent my child, so be it....if that means i want to work in a factory, so be it....it is all about choice
<bliss100> i see it as symbolic of everything else u surrender to your dom
<trufriend> i was born submissive Sire, with a hard exterior....kinda like a turtle  hehe
* `zee agrees with lyxanna
* Kilted_One has hugged tru...neve rfound any "hard" exterior there lass
<slave_c{MJ}> true submissives are born that way -- and what they choose to do with that is their choice -- male or female -- nothing to do with feminism
<SiRmac> agreed lyxanna. exactly
<trufriend> but lyx, are we not stereotyping submissives to be women.....
<bliss100> but lyx that is NOT what feminism was, the first women who foguth for ourr ights didnt fioght for us to be able to become submissive if we wanted to, it was to give us pwoer, to vote, to work, to go to university, to become equal in power, social and economic, as men
* trufriend blushes
<trufriend> thanks KO
<abigaille> but feminism has everything to do with choice slavec
<bliss100> man my typing sucks
<lyxanna> to a point bliss...but they also gave us the choice to choose for ourselves....
<`zee> bliss100.. it was a fight so we could be anything we chose to be... proud of who we are...
<Kilted_One> and bliss outside your d/s relationship do you not still have all of that?
<trufriend> therefore associating submission with "giving up" our feminism....
<bliss100> in my chosen career at the moment yes KO, but in many other careers no
<lyxanna> and trufriend....no one says a male submissive is less of a man...so why is it a femsub is less of a feminist
<SiRmac> bliss I believe there is power in being submissive
* `zee is a stronger woman since embracing her submissive soul
<trufriend> the many male submissives....are they giving up their feminism?!
<victoria_angel> tru, my nature has always been submissive, and my Sir saw that in me over 24 yrs ago when we first met.....i only recently identified that 'term - submissive' and now am exploring the D/s experience with my eyes wide open - i have chosen and am satisfied to be submissive
<trufriend> not all women consider themselves feminists though
<trufriend> that is misleading
<SiRmac> powerful choice va 
* lyxanna has a problem with this idea of "true submissives" and thinks that should be saved for another day
<bliss100> yes there is power SM but not equality
<trufriend> so am i victoria_angel
<trufriend> i am proud to say i am submissive.....that i WANT to be submissive
<slave_c{MJ}> as am i -- it is my true nature
<slave_c{MJ}> i am happiest when i am submitting to my Master  :))
<Sire> nusha: but tru, you are not submissive to all.
<bliss100> is also a proud woman (no, really?) but i am not comfortable being a submissive, i feel it lessens me as a feminist
<lyxanna> and that is your personal choice bliss
<bliss100> i didnt choose to feel this way licks
<bliss100> in fact it causes a lot of grief
<trufriend> no, i'm not "submissive" to all, i am submissive to whom i choose to share that intimate part of me with
<lyxanna> i know bliss....but to voice it is a choice
<Sire> I guess it all depends on which definition of feminism you're using bliss
<`zee> Sire Sir.. i am submissive to A/all yet only submit to Ones i chose..it is who i am ...not what i chose to be at times.. but that is just 'me'
<SiRmac> bliss why does it lessen you as a feminist
<bliss100> because it means i surrender my power, and it means i give up my e2quality
<lyxanna> i know the conflict too bliss...how am i, this strong woman that fights for what she believes in, feel at home submitting to someone else....why do i like this
<victoria_angel> Bernie - may i pose a question to the Dom/mes?
<Mstr_Jim> isn't that what submission is about??
<BernieRoehl> Of course, victoria_angel
<SiRmac> i say you still keep power as a submissive bliss
* vixen{KO} considers herself to be a prouder & stronger woman because she is happily submissive...have never been more of a woman than i am now...
* `zee smiles to vixen{KO} and knows the feeling!
<SiRmac> right on vixen
<trufriend> `zee, i have worked in the retail trade for over 20 years now, because i chose to 'serve' people, that is one aspect of submission...dealing with people daily.....helping, assisting, making them happy and satisfied
* autumn^whspr agrees with vixen
<trufriend> it is no different then 'serving' a Dom, only with a Dom, it is much more personal
<cyberbrat_> i feel as though i wield aboslute power in my submission. it's the ultimate offering of self that i am choosing to make....for Another.  i am intensely proud of that aspect of myself, grateful for the opportunity to express it
<vixen{KO}> and i'll stand up to any person (male or female) that would like to oppose such a thought....now is that making me less of a feminist?    i frickin think not!!!!   LOL
<bliss100> but power as a submissive is not the same as power
<shimmer``> being feminist enables me to make the choice of acting on my submissive tendencies... without feminism, i wouldn't be who i am ..
<shimmer``> i see no contradiction there
* `zee smiles to trufriend..it is interesiting how our submissives souls lead us to 'serve' in many ways of our lives
<trufriend> i am happiest serving others
<SiRmac> agreed shimmer
<bliss100> shimmer, w/o feminism many many women would be submissive, that is what women wwere before they found some equality
<lyxanna> but then i weigh the fact that i am a stronger and happier person after i have "let go" of that strong  part of me i am better able to be that strong person
<victoria_angel> Is a man or woman who accepts that their role in life is to financially support their partner (ie - a Dom/me supports a submissive) - is it because they cater to the needs of their partner?  or are they simply living in a slightly different co-dependant relationship than to a D/s relationship?
* `zee nods to trufriend..these girl on her way to be a pallative care nurse
<trufriend> i put myself second to the gift i offer in being able to serve.....i have pride in that ability
<cyberbrat_> i don't know that they were submissive...i believe they were supressed.
<shimmer``> there is a difference between subjugation and submission, bliss ... what you are referring to is society's enforcement of standards in which women were not considered equal. This is not close to the same thing.
<bliss100> oppressed
<SiRmac> bliss i disagree, today women have choices, before feminism they did not.
<Kilted_One> ahhh bliss the difference in the case you site is that one is consentual
<bliss100> i am talking about the day to day life, the actions the women had to take, being expected to please their husbands with their day to day performance
<bliss100> yes i know KO
<shimmer``> the keys words there being "had to"
<bliss100> yes i know shimmer
<shimmer``> if i submit, it is out of choice
<trufriend> bliss, women have always been leaders, strong, opinion giving....they have only chosen to do it silently until the 20th Century
<vixen{KO}> suppressed.....very much different....bravo bratty
<shimmer``> ergo, the equality is there
<bliss100> but as we already stated a few times, feminism had less to do with choice as equality
<SiRmac> right KO .... consensual
<bliss100> and i dont see d/s as equal
<shimmer``> feminism has everything to do with choice
* lyxanna is not setting out to change blisses mind
<bliss100> it starts as equal until thw submissive surrenders and then it isnt equal until she leaves
<Sire> nusha:  but do women *really* have a choice.  How would *most* people react to your submission?
<Kilted_One> victoria_angel I dont know if I see me "accepting my role in life" as being the bread winner.....I just happen to be right now....things may change who knows....I dont see this as being pertinent in the D/s relationship
<bliss100> the submissive gives away the equality
<trufriend> no they don't bliss....they still hold the ultimate power.....with "no"
<bliss100> feminism BECAME about choice
<bliss100> it didnt startb out as such
<SiRmac> equality is a difficult concept
<`zee> don't see it that way..she gives willingly up her control..not her equality as a person
<bliss100> indeed it id SM
<bliss100> equality has to do with power, power is about control
<shimmer``> if i chose to submit, then i am willingly giving away that ultimate "equality" ... no one is absolutely equal to the other, each has strengths and is better at certain things... equality is merely a concept
<BernieRoehl> I remember one submissive who gave an interesting analogy.  She's free to walk wherever she wants, but once she gets on a ferris wheel, she has chosen to surrender control for a while.  She can't just get up and walk around anymore.
<shimmer``> and i disagree that feminism "bacame" about choice ... but that isn't germane
<shimmer``> became too
<victoria_angel> KO, that was my 'Sir's question - but there are various levels of submissiveness in everyone and every situation is different. 
<BernieRoehl> That's how she described her submission.
<`zee> that is a nice analogy BernieRoehl Sir
<bliss100> ya except if ur riding the ferris wheel for an entire lifetime someone is gonna come and "evaluate you" LOL
* BernieRoehl smiels
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`zee> i think of it as a dance..each O/one taking the steps that make it a dance.. if both don't step in equal movements..the movements wouldn't make up a dance
<shimmer``> relationships are never 50/50 ... some days they are 20/80 , 40/60 .... "equality
<BernieRoehl> So, in terms of the original question... how does one find the balance?
<`zee> equal = to balance things...not 'same' or identical movements
<shimmer``> " works in different ways
<victoria_angel> zee - equal and OPPOSITE movements
<bliss100> thinks a woman who chooses to live under her father's roof, and follow his rules, and do things to please him, is less than a feminist too, but thats just me
* `zee nods and smiles to victoria_angel
<shimmer``> carefully, Bernie Sir ... carefully :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
<shimmer``> and slowly .. and with conversation and discussion and respect
* Kilted_One has thought about victoria_angel's question some more and think that it maybe a reference to the vanilla way of thinking that the "Male bread winner" is more dominant because he is in that position....however I dont think that is the case in a D/s relationship
<victoria_angel> the balance, BR comes with equal amounts of give and take
<SiRmac> like any relationship balance is difficult. you listen, you give, you take.
<victoria_angel> KO - working for someone else is scarcely considered dominant ??
<BernieRoehl> That sounds like a good answer, shimmer.  I'd say "a good note to close on", but we still have 15 minutes left in the discussion!  :-)
* shimmer`` smiles :) thanks, Bernie Sir ;)
<`zee> if you have found your own balance..Each of you..share that like riding a teeter toter.. for so long i always ended up high..looking around admiring the view..oblivous to the one at the bottom sliding off and me crashing down..now i make sure i am balanced and sense the others balance as well
<shimmer``> it is checks and balances, most certainly, zee 
<BernieRoehl> Here's a (somewhat) related question...
<`zee> all the time shimmer``... all the time...
<victoria_angel> i think though, maybe our 'submissive who posed the question' has a problem that i've thought of though - is he/she submissive enough in the eyes of her Master?
<Sire> It is my opinion, victoria_angel, that its an essential part of one's responsibilities as Master to bring home the "bacon".  To be the breadwinner-it comes with the turf. And while the power does not necessarily flow from this it is just the way I feel things have been since time eternal.
<Kilted_One> victoria_angel it could be for everyone under the person in question....typical in a pyramid structure....everyone but the one at the top has some level of control being exerted on them and exerting on the ones below them
<shimmer``> i dunno, Sire ... i bring home the bacon (nevermind that it's not kosher) and it is as valuable as any man's work
<BernieRoehl> Some submissives I know have recently "come out" to their vanilla friends.  How should they approach explaining their lifestyle choice, in a way that a vanilla feminist would understand and accept?
<Kilted_One> Sire there are plenty of D/s relationships where the "bread winner" is the the "s"
<victoria_angel> so, therefore, being responsive to the needs of another isn't necessarily being submissive Sire/KO???
<Sire> Yes shimmer, I do not dispute that.  Yet I cannot just sit by and not either bring in the bacon or try.
<Mstr_Jim> if they cannot accept your choice to submit....thats their loss!!
<shimmer``> i've been having a tough time with that too, Bernie Sir ... "what do you mean you're submissive ... not YOU???.. youre FAR too strong..."
<SiRmac> by sayig that they chose their lifstyle, happily and willingly Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Exactl, shimmer.
<shimmer``> Sire - that is your choice ... as it is mine to pay for my own keep
<shimmer``> it is a matter of pride
* `forbidden has explained to her 'vanilla' friends that being a slave is where her inner strength comes from and flurishes
<slave_c{MJ}> i don't think anyone would "come out" to anyone they felt couldn't handle the information in the first place
<`forbidden> it's not an easy task
<shimmer``> not to mention that it's nice to have groceries and a roof over my head ;)
* vixen{KO} thinks that being submissive takes a very strong will....
<BernieRoehl> True enough, slave_c, but some sort of explanation is usually still necessary.
<Sire> And yes Kilted One I do not see anything wrong with that for those couples.  In fact it may also be out of necessity-our system is designed so the government needs taxes from both.
* shimmer`` smiles at vixen ... me too!
<Kilted_One> I would say that I am responsive to the needs of my slave vixen but I would not say that I am "submissive" victoria_angel
<`forbidden> most find it amazing that i have enough trust in my Master to give up control to him
<`zee> my sister had a hard time for i have been and am independent in many ways.. my brother-in-law..said' whatever floats your boat'  but had to promise for her to never see me in a collar and leash..lol
<shimmer``> trust is the essence
<SiRmac> breadwinning and D/s are , should be irrelevant
<victoria_angel> no offence KO
<slave_c{MJ}> i have come out to friends, and they are happy for me, because it is my choice, and they want me to be happy -- no further "explanation" is necessary, they are told what they need to know 
<shimmer``> many Doms have said to me that there is incredible beauty in the submission of an independent and strong woman, zee *smile*
* `forbidden agrees with slave_c{MJ}
<`forbidden> they are happy that i am happy
<Kilted_One> I say no reason to take offence victoria_angel
* SiRmac agrees with shimmer
<Kilted_One> say=saw
<`forbidden> they don't really understand what i get out of it but they can tell i'm a happier, fuller soul
* `zee smiles softly to shimmer``
<slave_c{MJ}> exactly forbidden, they know understand why i am so happy and content
<SiRmac> do you think they still see you as a femiist forbiddn?
<slave_c{MJ}> they may not understand completely, but they are happy
* `forbidden never said she was a feminist SiRmac
<Sire> nusha: I could never come *out* to my crowd of peers; which are mainly stay at home moms.
<shimmer``> most of my friends know better than to think of me as NOT being a feminist :)
<Kilted_One> there is an old saying that things fought for are worth much more shimmer
<shimmer``> indeed KO Sir :))
* `forbidden is an independant and strong woman
<`forbidden> if you call that feminist whatever
<Lotta_Skull^> thinking if O/our F/friends only knew what it is that makes us so close and has made our bond so strong they would freak! *L*
<`forbidden> i call it me
* cyberbrat_ chuckles and agrees with Lotta_Skull^
<shimmer``> the feminist credo hangs in my home ... i see it every day - just to keep me on my toes ;)
<Kilted_One> and the opposite is also true....easily gotten....easily given away!!!
<slave_c{MJ}> you may be surprised Lotta_Skull
* `zee has found the discipline and focus she has learned helps her in her strength..
<slave_c{MJ}> it's not an easy subject to broach to friends, but it is rewarding after you have done so
<`abi> forbidden...years ago, in the early days of feminism, one of the things we talked about was our hope that our daughters would be able to take their strength and independece for granted....I'm glad that we were successful :)
* vixen{KO} burnt her bra many eons ago to have the given right to choose to be exactly the kind of woman that makes her truly happy....and that kinda woman is fully and completly slave and proud of it!!!
<shimmer``> i had a friend freak on my when i told him i was sub ... he figured it meant a lot of casual sex and dangerous beatings with many partners ...
<Sire> nusha:  I am very much dependant, at this moment.  But, I consider myself a very strong idividual.  I am strong in my beliefs and morals.
<shimmer``> my=me
<SiRmac> so shimmer, your friends see you as a submissive and as a feminst?
<Kilted_One> I think you may talk from good personal experience c, however there are plenty out there that have not found the situ rewarding
<shimmer``> SiRmac ... all know me as a feminist ... only a couple know i'm sub
<`forbidden> that i can understand abi
* vixen{KO} hugglex abi
<`zee> when they learn of the honour and respect and honesty within this lifeway..many don't believe it is possible..but applaude the value of it
<Sire> nusha: and I am quite capable of jumping into the "captain" role whenever the need may arise.
<`forbidden> i have never known different to not have choices
<shimmer``> *hugs* vixen :)) 
<slave_c{MJ}> i think then that it is WHO we choose to tell (and why) that may make the experieince rewarding
* vixen{KO} hugglez shimmer too
<Lotta_Skull^> W/we have with a few and once I make the comparison too how thier relationship is a dictatorship and ours is negotiated and agreed apon they have seemed a little amazed ...
<trufriend> i am a submissive feministic woman....i get morning breath, i need to shave my legs constantly....but you know what?  i am a woman, first and foremost
<Lotta_Skull^> then we feel proud of our acomplishments 
<shimmer``> you shave your legs??? traitor ... *grin*
<trufriend> lol
<shimmer``> (kiddin)
* vixen{KO} plucks....but that's another topic...LOL
<trufriend> well, i could let a Dom do it for me.....<wink>
<`abi> yes shimmer....but we now have "feminine" shavers ;)
<shimmer``> lil masochistic vixen girl :))
* BernieRoehl notes that the automatic message is telling people that trufriend is moderating. That's a typo... (sorry, tru!)
<vixen{KO}> ;)
<shimmer``> hahaha, abi, i always buy the men's one ... on principle!
* Kilted_One adds colour to the PUCKS
<`abi> but she was doing such a good job Bernie!
<`abi> lol shimmer :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
* vixen{KO} throws an 'L' up there fer her Master....lol
<shimmer``> lol
* `abi watches to see what KO catches the L on
<Blacqueswan> Is there a topic...?
* trufriend smiles
<BernieRoehl> Well, electric shavers are perhaps a less profound note to end on, but end we must.
<shimmer``> there was
<victoria_angel> giggle - wondered how we got to the 'sports channel'...wink
* `forbidden looks at her clock
<Mstr_Jim> we're out of here...bed time....take care all
<BernieRoehl> It's 10 pm, and the formal part of our discussion is now over.  Thank you to everyone who participated!
<`forbidden> there was a topic Blacqueswan sorry ya missed it
<`abi> well, there was Blacqueswan, but tru seems to have lost control :)
* Kilted_One is having an "l" of a time
<BernieRoehl> I should have the log file uploaded to our web site this evening.
<SiRmac> thnks all
<vixen{KO}> i am woman.....permission to roar Master?  *winking to KO knowing that her "roar" is worse than many person's bit...LOL*
* `zee enjoyed her first discussion
<victoria_angel> thank you BR
<BernieRoehl> Please feel free to continue discussing things informally.