September 26 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<Kilted_One> I have set the following auto notice............ #bdsm-kw 
Greeting: Welcome to the channel. discussion in progress. Topic 
"Virtual Collaring... Too Easily Given and Given Up?" No need for 
hellos and goodbyes during discussion
* shimmer`` pulls up her chair and cradles her hot chocolate ...
<Kilted_One> I would like to start the discussion by saying that I 
would ask that we try and keep from gettin personal
<tarinaa> hot chocolate..sounds yummy
<Kilted_One> unless you want to about yourself
<cylen> hello SirEel
<SirEel> Hello peoples
* shimmer`` waves at SirEel ;)
<SirEel> Hiya shimmer....I came to see what people had to say about 
velcro collars
<callay{TW}> toohot for a hot drink:(
<callay{TW}> wb charlie
<charlie2> thanks
<shimmer``> never too hot for hot chocolate
<shimmer``> what do you have to say about velro collars, SirEel?
<Kilted_One> would anyone who wishes to change their nick do so now
* shimmer`` pops a c in velro
<SirEel> I call 'em velcro collars because they go on and off so easily
<Kilted_One> as this is being logged and will be placed on our wp
* vixen{KO} likes that term, SirEel
<SirEel> virtual seems to equal velcro
<Kilted_One> does anyone have and opinion on this topic?
<shimmer``> not always, SirEel ... i've known irc couple that have been 
together 1-3 years
<shimmer``> couples, too
@<vixen{KO}> but the term does infer something easily adapted
<SirEel> An exception, shimmer
<SirEel> I've seen some with a new collar almost daily
<shimmer``> is it an exception? and do "real" D/sers do that, or is it 
only those that do D/s on irc?
<Kilted_One> can anyone remember an on line collaring ceremony?
<shimmer``> yes, KO Sir
<callay{TW}> never seen one KO
<Kilted_One> tell us about it??
* vixen{KO} hasn't see one in many moons.
<shimmer``> um .. well, it was during my Gor days, Sir ...
* Kilted_One smiles
<shimmer``> it was actually quite beautiful :)
<SirEel> I've seen online collaring ceremonies that were quite 
beautiful
<Kilted_One> anyone seen one lately??
@<vixen{KO}> many online collaring are very elaborate and 
beautiful....or at least they used to be....
<shimmer``> not in the last 6 months or so, no
@<vixen{KO}> it doesn't seem to be THE thing to do anymore....
<shimmer``> i used ta have the logs
<Kilted_One> why do you think that is??
<shimmer``> well, i thought it was cause i stopped going to Gor, 
personally
<`lucius> I would think that after having the real thing..online only 
would pale
* `^Destiny^` nods
<shimmer``> i agree, lucius :)
* vixen{KO} thinks the novelty's worn off for those that are prone to 
the prose and pomp that goes with online ceremonies.
<shimmer``> could be, vixen
<Kilted_One> but several ppl have never had a r/l kolar
<SirEel> There is a big diff between virtual and real....and it often 
seems there is a stronger committment in real life than cyber
<shimmer``> not necessarily so, SirEel ... i know rl subbies that give 
"slut" a whole new meaning :) and i don't mean that judgementally
@<vixen{KO}> and i also believe that in many circumstances of late, 
that many of the serious vKOlars are utilized by those having long 
distance unions
<Kilted_One> do you think that all of the virtual kolaring has diluted 
the meaning of it??
<callay{TW}> yes vixen!
<willing1> absolutly KO
<shimmer``> KO Sir ... i think it is deeper than that
<SirEel> I do, KO
<Kilted_One> why do you say that will??
<Kilted_One> go on shimmer explainpls?
* `lucius is still waiting to be collared
<willing1> because they have become common place now, there is no 
seriousness given to them any more!
* vixen{KO} thinks the only dilution that has happened has been from 
those flippantly using the anonymity of vKOlars as a game to 
play....not as serious as r/l
* `lucius agrees
<`lucius> How do you sub online?
<shimmer``> there are people who will never enter the actual real life 
world of D/s, to whom this is all they wil ever have ... as such, they 
make their own rules .. a lot of them are people whom i call the 
"walking wounded" ... they seek something and think they have found it 
in the fleeting attentions of an online "Dom"
<Kilted_One> is that wrong? is that something that we should work at 
reversing will?
<SirEel> I won't give a cyber-collar.....they have little meaning and I 
am not looking for a cyber-relationship.....I seek r/l
<SirEel> I agree w/ that, shimmer
<shimmer``> lucius- ya want me to serve paga?? *grin*
<Kilted_One> but there are several that do Eel
* vixen{KO} would like to see vKOlars taken much more seriously....
<callay{TW}> what if the online has become real yet you have not 
met..??
* vixen{KO} can identify callay{TW}
<SirEel> How can online have become real, if it's never tested in 
r/l???
<shimmer``> it can happen, callay *smile*
<cylen> night
@<vixen{KO}> Master and i were just that way for quite a while
<callay{TW}> it did;))
<callay{TW}> us also:))
<shimmer``> and sometimes it fails
<callay{TW}> and my collar was very important
<`lucius> I've met trainers on line...then in rl
<Blksmith> I think it is important for people who enter into a long 
distance relationship to realize right from thr start there may not be 
the same level of involvment as there would be in an actual physical 
one
<`lucius> ...in fact, that's how I've met most play partners recently
<callay{TW}> very true Blk
<SirEel> True, Blk
<swannie^^> with all due respects Sir......ldr are not the same as 
vcollars...
<SirEel> ldr???
* callay{TW} nods
<Kilted_One> but going back about a year there were ppl getting and 
giving vkolars that had never met and they meant something more that 
they seem to mean today
<callay{TW}> loong distace relationships
* vixen{KO} has witnessed lately too many vKOlars slapped on as if 
looking in an underwear drawer and pulling out the one that is 
embroidered with the day of the week....LOL
<swannie^^> long distance relationships
<SirEel> Thank you, calley
<shimmer``> i've known subbies that will take any collar online, just 
to have one ... some measure of desperation
* tarinaa smiles..agrees with vixen
<SirEel> Thank you, swannie
<willing1> I agree with vixen
<shimmer``> and i've known "Doms" that will collar any subbie that will 
acccept
@<vixen{KO}> true
<SirEel> That's why I call them velcro collars
@<vixen{KO}> like notches on the headboard
<SirEel> Damn!!! I need a headboard
<shimmer``> but i would theorize that those to whom it means something, 
it isn't as casual
<Kilted_One> so what can be done to reverse this trend??
* vixen{KO} would DCC ya one, Sir...if'n a gurl could...
<shimmer``> psssssst get a wrought iron one, SirEel ;)
<SirEel> Is it up to us to reverse a trend?
<Kilted_One> how?
<SirEel> I have an antique brass one, shimmer
<shimmer``> don't make notches on it, then ;)
<swannie^^> only by example SirEel Sir .....
<SirEel> One "Sir" is plenty, swannie^^
* vixen{KO} thinks that if we aren't willing to help reverse a trend, 
then we've no room to b*tch, Sir
<Kilted_One> do you thing that this trend affects rl kolars and if so 
in what way?
<shimmer``> that's what i say most days *grin*
<Blksmith> It is not the fact that the colloars are 'virtual" tht has 
cheapened them it is the ease with which that are thrown about that has 
cause the deminished meaning
<callay{TW}> education
<swannie^^> i believe that many subs are very unrealistic about what 
r/l means...
<shimmer``> well, i think that as BDSM loses it's "taboo" ... it 
becomes more casual ... as such, even rl collars get more mundane
@<vixen{KO}> true, Blksmith
<swannie^^> like carpet burns on the knees ...
<SirEel> I think it's important to separate out all the diff 
categories....there are those who start online and seek r/l....there 
are those who will never go r/l....there are those looking for r/l in 
the real world....and those who seek r/l, but use IRC as a means to 
that end
@<vixen{KO}> as are a good number od dominants, swannie^^
@<vixen{KO}> oops....of dominants
<SirEel> Wedding rings once meant a lot more too
<shimmer``> oh puh-leeze :)
<shimmer``> let's not talk about the good old days!
<swannie^^> true vixen ..i stand corrected
<Kilted_One> do you see a parallel there Eel?
* vixen{KO} wasn't correcting you swannie^^.....just adding too, luv
<swannie^^> i know *smile*
@<vixen{KO}> ;)
<Blksmith> a symbol only has meaning if the poeple exchanging them give 
them meaning
* shimmer`` hugs swannie just cause :)
<SirEel> I wasn't really, shimmer....only pointing out that 
relationships these days are more transitory than they once were
<Kilted_One> is that a bad thing Eel?
<shimmer``> people used to live shorter lives too, SirEel
@<vixen{KO}> and the internet only makes all relationships even more 
transientory....
<callay{TW}> i think in our community we do have a responsiblity to 
educate...and sharing what a collar means us in r/l is important
<SirEel> True, shimmer
<SirEel> Not a bad thing, KO....just a thing
<Kilted_One> good point calley
<shimmer``> well, what does a collar mean to us??
<Kilted_One> how bout setting examples??
<victoria_angel> if i may though, i hate to see collars on the 
youngsters who practice goth or punk...
<charlie2> callay is that why you asked me here to educate me on what 
it really means to have a collar????
<callay{TW}> that is part of it love.....
* vixen{KO} thinks the least that serious players can do is to set a 
good example....
<`lucius> you wouldn't want to be at a furry con then victoria_angel
<SirEel> The goofy neighbour on Dharma & Greg wears a leather collar 
with a D-ring
<SirEel> It's become a style too
<shimmer``> never watched the show *proudly*
* willing1 agrees with you vixen{KO}
* tarinaa nods..
<shimmer``> if i may ask a question?
<Kilted_One> well they have made wearing kolars rl just that lil bit 
easier though dont you think va??
<victoria_angel> lucius, please explain 'furry con...'
@<vixen{KO}> and goth & punk will fade as a fad, as it were....and OUR 
Kolars will hold their stead
<Kilted_One> as away shimmer
<shimmer``> what does a collar mean to people here?
<swannie^^> commitment...
<shimmer``> i am curious to hear what people think
<swannie^^> honor
<swannie^^> caring
<swannie^^> love
<SirEel> To me a collar means a real commitment between two people in a 
D/s relationship
<shimmer``> define please, SirEel?
<swannie^^> respect for both partners
<victoria_angel> KO, eventually, i too will have a fulltime collar, but 
as a working mother - it must be in utmost taste, as it cannot be 
removed ...
* willing1 is collared real life to Ruffles...and to me it means honour 
love and committment
JOINED #bdsm-kw 9:23pm est 
<SirEel> Well, shimmer....swannie is taking all the good 
answers....I'll just parrot her
<Kilted_One> it means to me that she is mine...she is owned by 
me...willingly given and accepted...it is my name she wears on her 
throat
<callay{TW}> it means commitment
<swannie^^> sharing
* shimmer`` grins
<swannie^^> support
<callay{TW}> maybe more stronger than a weddign ring
* tarinaa wont take a rl collar...becasue she is a single full time 
mom....
<shimmer``> now ... do you think a virtual collar means the same thing? 
or should it?
<Kilted_One> yes
<SirEel> What does that have to do with it, tarinna?
<SirEel> +a
<callay{TW}> my collar is non traditional because i am a part time mom 
and have an ex who would cause me gret grief....
<callay{TW}> but to us...we know what my collar means
<SirEel> It should, shimmer, but often it doesn't
<tarinaa> it means that if a collar is offered chances are it would be 
virtual..not chancing bring my kids into this
<shimmer``> why should it? After all, this is irc, not rl.
<victoria_angel> tarinaa, my Sir feels that i can wear a silver collar 
with lock fulltime - i agree as it will be pretty jewelery to those who 
see it and significant to my Sir and myself
<swannie^^> but shimmer ...that is what is wrong with the vcollar if 
ppl feel that way
* callay{TW} nods at victoria
<swannie^^> it should be a stepping stone ...a first step
<shimmer``> what right do we rl D/sers have to impose our values on irc 
D/sers who may not want the same thing we do?
<shimmer``> *playin devil's advocate here*
<callay{TW}> hm
* `lucius has to leave...
* shimmer`` puts on her lil red horns
<Kilted_One> a piece of chain a special necklace what difference does 
it make to the wearer of a rl kolar??
<swannie^^> we can't impost but we can accept that those who use irc 
for games are just that ......game players ...sub and Dom alike
<callay{TW}> i dont think it does KO
<callay{TW}> as long as the two involved know the signifigance of it
<victoria_angel> KO, the collar - it isn't what it is made of, but it 
is what the mindset is of the 'item' which is around the neck
@<vixen{KO}> ^5's swannie^^
<shimmer``> some are,swannie .. but to some it is all they have
<shimmer``> exactly, victoria
<Kilted_One> exactly calley and va
<swannie^^> but do you bastardize something that is "all you have" or 
do you value it for "what you have"
<SirEel> Yes, some only have IRC, but the use of the velcro collar 
diminishes the meaning for us all
<victoria_angel> believe me, i was in tears accepting my first training 
collar - the experience is what makes it important
<shimmer``> i dunno, swannie ... it means different things to different 
people, just as TPE does
<Blksmith> a collar does not have to be on the computer to be virtual 
it could also be psychological
<shimmer``> all real collars are psychological, imho :)
<SirEel> I think we all define D/s slightly differently....there is no 
right or wrong, just what tow ppl have negotiated
<swannie^^> *nodding @shimmer*
<Kilted_One> but has vkolars not got as simple as exchanging pins?? as 
in high school??
<SirEel> tow -=- two
* tarinaa nods agreed Sir Eel
<shimmer``> we read typo, SirEel :)
* Kilted_One types typo
<shimmer``> lol
<SirEel> I am a writer, shimmer....typo is ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
* tarinaa is fluent reading writing speaking typo
<victoria_angel> you don't collar the neck, you collar the mind - a sub 
needs to 'feel' inside her/his head that the collar is there, whether 
or not it actually is
<shimmer``> ewwwwwwwww?? LOLOL
<swannie^^> but with all due respect SirEel ..i have seen some ppl who 
only do online .....being collared in one room and scening in another 
wiht a different perons
<swannie^^> person even
<shimmer``> i've seen that too, swannie
<SirEel> I've seen that too, swannie......and I guess they have a 
different value system
<swannie^^> i do believe we can all agree that this is wrong if the two 
others involved are not aware ..
<Kilted_One> why do you think there is a lack of kolars in channel 
right now if they are all so common as we think they are??
* callay{TW} nods again at victoria
<shimmer``> but then, Gorean collars do encourage that in some channels
<shimmer``> cause we're real players, KO Sir
<victoria_angel> agrees with shimmer
<shimmer``> MasterZarith Sir :) may i msg you a sec please?
<SirEel> Some marriages are monogamous....some are open.....which is 
wrong, swannie?
<MasterZarith> yes :)
<callay{TW}> KO: could it possibly be becaause many here live it real 
life...and there is signifigance in not accepting somethign that is so 
valuable til youare edrtain?
<swannie^^> please read my full statement ...i did not say any was 
wrong .....i said if the partners don't know Sir
<callay{TW}> certian even
<Kilted_One> could it be that they are searchin for something and are a 
lil ashamed of it and stayed away tonight??
<SirEel> My mistake, swannie
<shimmer``> i dunno, KO Sir ... i
<shimmer``> ve never seen that many vcollars in here
<swannie^^> i have shimmer ..
* shimmer`` looks at her fingers and sighs in despair
<swannie^^> but i have seen velcro r/t collars in here too
<shimmer``> well, i'm relatively new here
<SirEel> This is my first time in this room, myself
<SirEel> Matbe 2nd
<SirEel> ACK
<SirEel> Maybe
<Kilted_One> does anyone think that they are acceptable...velcro kolars 
that is??
<shimmer``> hehehe, i'm an Undernet grrrrrrl
<KinkDom> I dont know if this is relevant... but I met, and collared My 
slave VT
<Kilted_One> so did I KD
* vixen{KO} thinks velcro ones have a purpose....sad as that is
<shimmer``> i don't think it's for me to accept or not, Sir - it is up 
to those who are involved
<KinkDom> that has since blossomed
* Kilted_One points to vixen's throat
* shimmer`` smiles
<SirEel> I don't think velcro collars are acceptable, but I have no 
problem with a cyber-collar with a commitment behind it
<callay{TW}> i wear mine here becasue i wear mine in real life everyday 
it is a part of who i am
<shimmer``> i am more libertarian than you, SirEel ;)
<swannie^^> but KinkDom Sir .....look at Your commitment to the 
relationship ...do you believe it would have worked out this way if it 
was just a game to You
<SirEel> You are, shimmer?
<KinkDom> hmm.
<MasterZarith> For those who cannot go anyfurther, it seems acceptable
<shimmer``> indeed. i believe it's none of my business
<KinkDom> swannie, it started as a game..
<KinkDom> very quickly became something more profound
<SirEel> I don't make it my business, shimmer, but did respond to a 
question asked here
<shimmer``> for those of us to whom it means anything at all, vcollars 
will not change that
<callay{TW}> i do understand that for some ppl for whatever reasons 
virtual is the only D/s they can ever have...there is signifigance for 
them in thier collar
<shimmer``> so did i *grin*
<Blksmith> If it looks like a collar, talks like a collar and smells 
like a collar, It's a collar it is not up to others to judge the 
validity of it for those who are giving and recieving them
<shimmer``> ultimately, what other people do online is none of my 
business ... if they enjoy getting a new collar every second day ... so 
be it. It diminishes nothing of what i believe in.
<Kilted_One> has this medium not just allowed us to act out more of our 
dreams and fantasies??
<KinkDom> *here here Blksmith*
* tarinaa smiles at Sir Blksmith
<swannie^^> once again Blksmith Sir ....as long as they are honest with 
their partner...
* willing1 agrees with you blacksmith it is up to the ppl involved in 
the collaring to decide what it means to them
* callay{TW} nods
<willing1> there is very different definitions for everyone
* vixen{KO} quacks and ^5's Blksmith, Sir.....very profound
<willing1> Blksmith even
<shimmer``> as there are in every aspect of D/s, willing1
<shimmer``> put 6 D/sers in a room, you'll have 15 opinions
<SirEel> Only 15, shimmer?
<KinkDom> having said that... and just to stimulate discussion...
<callay{TW}> lol
<shimmer``> i was being nice ;)
<Kilted_One> mutta be a qt day shimmer lol
<willing1> yes shimmer you are correct..as you would in a vanilla 
situation on what a vanilla marriage should "look" like
<swannie^^> a cammel is a horse put together by a committee of D/s'ers
<shimmer``> LOL, KO Sir ;))
<KinkDom> I _do_ get ticked off when I see how lightly others seem to 
take it.
* shimmer`` shudders at the thought of a vanilla marriage
<Kilted_One> so what can be done to reverse this trend KD??
* willing1 shakes at the mere thought with shimmer``
* shimmer`` giggles
<Kilted_One> one hump or two shimmer??
<SirEel> I did that once
<shimmer``> huh?
<KinkDom> regrettably its still a matter of personal direction
<shimmer``> who did i hump?
* Kilted_One points to the camel ref for shimmer
<callay{TW}> notme shimmer:/
<KinkDom> but I think the collar is one of the "landmarks" of a D/s 
relationship
* shimmer`` grins ... that was swannie, Sir!
<KinkDom> Like the use of honorifics
@<vixen{KO}> true KinkDom.....it's all in the numbers anymore....the 
larger the population the more variety of KOlars that will be about
<Kilted_One> do you think that we who care can set examples for 
others??
<SirEel> Yes, KD, and honourifics are falling by the wayside too
* cyberbrat_ nods hard at KinkDom
<KinkDom> I think that is the only thing W/e cn do.
<cyberbrat_> er, Kilted_One
* cyberbrat_ nods at KinkDom this time
<callay{TW}> we can try and we can share the importance of what a 
colalr means tous...we an NOT change anothers thoughts or feeligns on 
it
* Kilted_One smiles at brattakins tab key outta control
<Blksmith> leading by exampleis difficult at best in reality in 
cyberspace it can only be more dificult KO
<KinkDom> I think also it places a greater emphasis on O/ur 
responsibility.
<Kilted_One> but is it worth it Blksmith?
<KinkDom> Blksmith... You may be right... but although one can have 
less quality impact in cyber
<shimmer``> i try and teach the lil lost "subbies" that come into 
channel on Undernet ... and talk to them, but often they don't wanna 
hear it .. they aren't here for the emotional comittment of D/s. They 
are here for cybersex and for that ever-elusive feeling of "love"
<KinkDom> the sheer number of interractions has to count for something.
* cyberbrat_ knows several C/couples, who share collars r/l, that she 
considers models and examples for her
<Kilted_One> if we value the kolar as hightly as we do is it not worthy 
of some effort to retain is full value??
<Blksmith> It's worth is measured by those who lead and those who 
choose to follow
<MasterZarith> what we can do is answer questions to people when they 
ask them, like folk in here to already
<SirEel> It's true, shimmer, some don't want to know.....but others are 
willing to learn
* callay{TW} smiles at Blksmith
<KinkDom> I think W/e can do more than that MZ
* shimmer`` nods at MasterZarith
<KinkDom> I think we can insist.
fun4di" 
<callay{TW}> insit on what???that they bef oreced to sosemthing???
<callay{TW}> forced in to soemthing?
<KinkDom> It is very easy to say "screw it... just horny net geeks"
<SirEel> Insist? When one is just here for the cyber-thrills and could 
give a damn about what's done in r/l?
<shimmer``> heck, i didn't even know people *did* D/s in rl ... LOL
<swannie^^> *nodding* i agree KinkDom Sir .....we don't have to tell 
ppl how to follow their relationships but we can insist that thay don't 
deminish what we value
* vixen{KO} is reminded of the wind and the chalf
* Kilted_One real reason for the topic tonight was to get ppl thinking 
of the value of vkolars again and what they one were
<callay{TW}> ll shimer
<KinkDom> no, not forced... but difficult to explain... there are times 
when its easier to say.. forget about it
<SirEel> You can't insist when ppl don't wanna know
<callay{TW}> yes vizen
* MasterZarith doesn't think the HNG's will ever go away.
<KinkDom> thank you swannie
<shimmer``> i swear, callay ... i thought it was only in my imagination 
and online!
<SirEel> I'll teach you all about it, shimmer
<SirEel> <wink>
* shimmer`` grins at SirEel - how generous of you, Sir ;)
* tarinaa shakes her head
<callay{TW}> well until i heard aboutti on line i thought i was really 
sick
<cyberbrat_> HNG's won't ever go away, but there is no harm in showing 
them consistently the signifance of a collar... No one loses anything, 
and one just might gain something.
<Blksmith> you're not sick callay your special
<shimmer``> yeah, that and the Beauty books :)
<Kilted_One> KD do you have some guidlines that you could offer to 
support your comment??
<shimmer``> after that, the Story of O :)
<callay{TW}> thank you blk:))
<charlie2> i agree she's very special :)
<KinkDom> well... one example would be how a vslave allows their Owner 
to be addressed
<KinkDom> a Vslave has just as much obligation to correct.
<SirEel> Drat! I have to take this phone call from my parents.....(even 
Doms have parents)........I'll try and get back
<^^AL> KO can i qm you for a min to ask a qersonal question?
@<vixen{KO}> Doms have parents?
* Kilted_One nods to AL
* cyberbrat_ grins at vixen{KO}...impossible!
<callay{TW}> thank you charlie:)00as are you dear:)
* shimmer`` looks at vixen aghast
* willing1 chuckles...
<KinkDom> there is a tendency to think that only the Doms guide the 
"rules"
<shimmer``> we like to let the Doms think that *wink*
<KinkDom> but a Vslave can have a huge impact on the behavior of her 
peers.
<Kilted_One> ohh KD I think we know who rules the irc waves and I dont 
think it is Dom or Domme ;)
* vixen{KO} thinks the rules and the limits that the rules are lax are 
EVERYBODY's responsiblity
* callay{TW} bites her tongue
<KinkDom> fair enough.. I left Myself wide open for that one..
<shimmer``> i bet you're enjoying that, callay ;)
* tarinaa smiles at Sir KO..da net gods!!!!!
<KinkDom> I meant the overall etiquette.
* vixen{KO} passes a clothespin to someone over by callay{TW}
<KinkDom> truth be told... I think that the largest impact to be made 
on re establishing the value of a Vcollar
<Kilted_One> just check how many in here tonight right now what the 
ratio is....>>>>>
<KinkDom> are the submissives online.
<callay{TW}> cloesthpin???
<callay{TW}> ack
<victoria_angel> KD, i think that in some channels the use of 
formalities goes to extreemes and that takes away the effect too
<KinkDom> they chat back and forth a good deal more than We do.
* vixen{KO} agrees with KD, Sir
* Blksmith sits down beside callay
<shimmer``> us? chat? KD Sir?
* shimmer`` looks innocent
<callay{TW}> ut oh
@<vixen{KO}> so then W/we need to walk that fine grey line then, 
victoria_angel?
<callay{TW}> i thhhink personally..that until someone has earned 
myrespect...i wont callthem sir...
<KinkDom> victoria.. you may be right that formalities can create 
distance
* tarinaa smiles at callay..so true
<KinkDom> but they also preserve the landmarks of D/s
<Blksmith> I agree callay I have said it before respect must be earned
<shimmer``> indeed callay! i know some that call even HNGs Sir, just 
cause they have a capped nick .. not this subbie,. no way, no how
<victoria_angel> i feel that respect is earned, not given
<Kilted_One> the point I was makin was that the submissive has way more 
say in numbers here that in r/l
<callay{TW}> brb gotta make Master a snack
@<vixen{KO}> k
<swannie^^> i used to call all Dom/mes Sir and Ma'am ...until i saw 
that i was demeaning the use for those who truely are to be respected 
by me ...
* vixen{KO} snafoos her clothespin back from Blksmith and smirks
<KinkDom> there are no "small' intimacies
<victoria_angel> Blk, we think alike...lol
<swannie^^> now i reserve it for those ppl only
* shimmer`` ^5s swannie
<KinkDom> swannie... I think I fall into the category you respect.
<swannie^^> ^5
<Blksmith> seems so victoria_angel
<KinkDom> and I know you think highly of My slave.
<swannie^^> You Sir most certainly are!!!!
<swannie^^> yes i think very highly of rosey ...
<Kilted_One> but do you think that is so because of all the wannabes 
swannie??
<KinkDom> she must still use the honorific and respect the collar... no 
matter how asinine the
<KinkDom> wannabe Dom is
<KinkDom> and no matter how velcro the collar is.
<KinkDom> thats the point
* Kilted_One spanks vixen{KO} with a @! *fwap*
<Blksmith> luckily I always travel with a good supply of cloths pins 
vixen
* vixen{KO} gets out her velcro and attaches it to her op chair....
<swannie^^> yes KO Sir ...
<KinkDom> W/e have to respect the framework... even if we dont respect 
the Dom or the collar
<^^AL> lol vixen{KO}
<callay{TW}> back
<Blksmith> and your front too callay
<shimmer``> i disagree KD Sir ... completely, and not just for D/s
<shimmer``> i respect individuals, not frameworks
<swannie^^> perhaps KinkDom Sir i have been too annoyed ...i start off 
with Sir but many loose that quickly ...
@<vixen{KO}> this is for a different discussion tho.....
<shimmer``> it is the individuals that make up the framework
<KinkDom> but surely thats what the Vcollar is...
* Kilted_1 thinks we are getting off topic just a little
<KinkDom> a shared symbol of some semi rigid relationship
* vixen{KO} watches KO steer the convo
<callay{TW}> oh nooooo
* shimmer`` bites her tongue and enjoys it
<Kilted_1> lol
<tarinaa> got to go...
<Kilted_1> now now now
* callay{TW} looks at Blk....
<shimmer``> hehehe
<callay{TW}> lots of them???
<Kilted_1> so any last thoughts everyone??
<callay{TW}> where do you keepthem??
<swannie^^> with all due respect Kilted_1 Sir .....i think it's a very 
important part of the topic...
<shimmer``> small pleasures, KO Sir ... small pleasures :)
<tarinaa> be well..:)
<Blksmith> thta is a secret cally
<Kilted_1> it maybe but I think the honourifics part can be discussed 
at another discussion
* vixen{KO} doesn't see more than a passing relativity between vKOlars 
and honorifics...
<swannie^^> i have lost some of the ediquette because of the velcro 
collars..
<KinkDom> Respect is hardest given when it is least deserved
<shimmer``> respect shouldn't be given when it isn't deserved
@<vixen{KO}> wise wordz those, KinkDom, Sir
<victoria_angel> KO, i believe, an online collar can work, only if 
there is truth and honesty between the partners
<callay{TW}> brb
<KinkDom> done this.. way off topic
<callay{TW}> master need s me
<^^AL> i agree with you on that shimmer``
<swannie^^> i believe that KinkDom Sir knows my feelings on proper 
protocol.....
* KO nods to va
<shimmer``> sorry KO Sir
<swannie^^> thank you KinkDom Sir ....you are so very right ....i have 
learned something very important from that ...
<KinkDom> quite so... and these damn washable collars are a symptom of 
generally lowered standards
* WarHwk looks around
<WarHwk> oops lol
<WarHwk> i think she escaped
* vixen{KO} thinks more wannabes should be wearing wet hemp KOlars....
<KinkDom> lol
<willing1> lol
<shimmer``> i'd rather smoke em ;)
<KinkDom> never mind wet hemp CAPS
* KO officially closes the conversation and opens up the discussion to whatever