September 29, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

* `abi sets mode: +o lil^tigress
<yummy> hi lil^tigress
<lil^tigress> hello MistressKatherine
<MistressKatherine> So we had a good time at our Munch in Brantford this past Friday nite
<MistressKatherine> roughly 10 people showed up
<MistressKatherine> I host the brantford Munch
<yummy> that is great MistressKatherine
<yummy> yes i've seen your ads for that
<yummy> but too far away for me to go
<MistressKatherine> Me and my subbie are planning to start to attend the other Munches in Ontario over the next little while
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<yummy> well that is a good idea
<yummy> and friendly of you
<MistressKatherine> where are you from yummy
<Sir_StephenS> hello all
<suzq{C}> hello Sir_StephenS
<yummy> Toronto
<_dove> hello Sir_StephenS
<jen{SE}> hello
<MistressKatherine> hello Sir Stephens
<yummy> maybe you will get to one in this area one day MistressKatherine, it would be wonderful if you do
<lil^tigress> hello Sir_StephenS
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<yummy> hi edri{AF}
<_dove> hello edri{AF}
<suzq{C}> hi edri{AF}
<lil^tigress> hello edri{AF}
<edri{AF}> well hello
<MistressKatherine> hello edri
<edri{AF}> looks like everyone is getting settled in their new digs?
* jen{SE} is going for ciggie before discussion starts
* jen{SE} is now known as jen-afk
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<yummy> hi comfortablynumb
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<yummy> hi Varky
<comfortablynumb> hi yummyu
<suzq{C}> hi comfortablynumb
<suzq{C}> hello Varky
<Varky> hello yummy Session Close: Sun Sep 22 21:00:32 2002 Session Start: Sun Sep 22 21:00:41 2002 Session Ident: #BDSM-kw
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<_dove> Hello Varky, hello comfortablynumb
<Varky> hi suzq{C}
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<suzq{C}> hi jewel :)
<jewel`{F}> hey suzq{C} *hugs*
<Varky> hello jewel`{F}
<lil^tigress> ok.. it looks like about time to get started
* lil^tigress tonights topic is about LIMITS .. how, when why are limits pushed and when should they be if at all .. where do our limits come from
<comfortablynumb> hi suzq
<jewel`{F}> Varky hello
<yummy> i don't know where they come from but i think they are something we all have
<yummy> some stuff - kids, scat, permanent injury just doesn't work for me as part of bdsm
<lil^tigress> how do we decide though what limits it is that we do have
<MistressKatherine> I agree yummy , I wont be apart of that either
<yummy> how do you decide, i think you just know
<Hamilton_Aaron> When limits change, is it the _fundamental_ limits, or just stuff that we hadn't thought about enough?
<Varky> but do you push the limits ?
<yummy> i think you can push soft ones but not hard ones
<Varky> or stay well within them
<_dove> Some hard limits are from a lack of knowledge
<yummy> i think soft limits are things that don't make you cringe but where you aren't sure, or haven't gone before
<yummy> they could go either way
<lil^tigress> in some cases for myself.. it is limits that over time I have moved them say from one side of the coin to the other that ok if i really want to keep this as a limit when for so many it is not. .then i should try it at least once to be able to honestly say.. no way
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<jewel`{F}> i think that when we start out as well we have limits to what we are able to or want to do, but over time some of those change and we may get new ones as we learn more about the lifestyle
* lil^tigress for those who just entered ..tonights topic is about LIMITS .. how, when why are limits pushed and when should they be if at all .. where do our limits come from
<yummy> i think it would be sad if what we liked our first few months didn't change
<jewel`{F}> so do i yummy
<lil^tigress> yes where is the growth.. for we all have to grow.. even if just inside of ourselves
* ^^zaR^^LS thinks limits need to be pushed to test the boundrys of the limits,,otherwise you can get mired down
<yummy> i know i like having what i can take or experience pushed
<jewel`{F}> it is always a learning and growing experience
<yummy> somehow that really works for me
<comfortablynumb> when you stop learning you stop growing
<yummy> and luckily for me it works with the Dom that i play with
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<lil^tigress> how do the dominants feel about limits.. do they have many or do they want to push some themselves
<Sir_StephenS> eventually I think you will get to the point where pushing limits don't really apply
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<Aleric> Cananda sucks.
<MistressKatherine> testing
<yummy> Sir_StephenS what do you mean? is there a point when there are none left to push?
<^^zaR^^LS> ;P
<edri{AF}> heh
<MistressKatherine> OK I feel that a Dom/me should be in touch with their subs in recognizing their limits
<Varky> so how and when can limits be approached or pushed
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<Varky> i think there are always limits
<edri{AF}> people who can't even spell what they are belittling suck
<^^zaR^^LS> when your getting bored?
<Varky> even if changing
<Sir_StephenS> there are always some sorts of limits, if only implied
<^^zaR^^LS> its too easy to get comfortable
<^^zaR^^LS> and stay in one spot
<MistressKatherine> their are different ways of testing ones limits....such as psychology
<Hamilton_Aaron> I'm still fairly new, but as a dom I know I don't have a huge number of hard limits - but there's lots of soft limits I just don't feel like pushing at the moment.
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<MistressKatherine> beating, asphixiation, ect ect
<shadoe{S}> lordy.. figuring out how to connect and then get here was damn near painful
* lil^tigress for those who just entered ..tonights topic is about LIMITS .. how, when why are limits pushed and when should they be if at all .. where do our limits come from
* jen-afk is now known as jen{SE}
<yummy> did it push you to your limits shadoe{S}?
<shadoe{S}> my intellectual ones fer sure lol
<MistressKatherine> with psychology, you can break a person to the point of insanity if your not careful
<yummy> well dal net tested all our limits and became too much for them, so had to move
<yummy> how do you guard against that MistressKatherine?
<Hamilton_Aaron> Well, who's going to push a sub (or a dom :-) ) enough that you drive them nuts? Ideally, things should get discussed a lot more than that.
<yummy> but things aren't always ideal
<MistressKatherine> as a Dom/me you have to watch the physical as well as personal sighns of each submissive, in order not to push to far
<yummy> i've seen a scene go past a subs limits - she called red and it was ignored
<yummy> was scary
<MistressKatherine> just stateing that with psychology one can due damage if intended to do so
<jen{SE}> some of my best scenes is when SE has pushed me farther than i thought i could go
<MistressKatherine> I believe in watching my subs signals from his body
<MistressKatherine> as well as his breating
<Sir_StephenS> ignoring a safe call is a pretty dumb thing to do, in addition to being scarey, yummy
<Varky> i agree
<lil^tigress> but shouldnt that be standard with most it is that they watch their submissive for any signs of stress
<yummy> Sir_StephenS i thought so i know it took the sub a long time to get over it. I know i made a note of who was not hearing the safeword and have it noted in the "don't go there" file
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<MistressKatherine> many of Dom/Dommes dont use safe words , instead they watch for body signals
<yummy> yes but if one is used isn't that treated as a hard limit
<MistressKatherine> yes yummy , safe word if used is used as a hard limit
<jen{SE}> nope, if you agree no limits as part of your relationship, then no limits, but to reach that point there is a very high level of trust
<MistressKatherine> exactly has to be lots of trust there
<yummy> jen{SE}, does that mean there are no limits or that the Dom's and sub's limits are the same?
<MistressKatherine> my sub and I do have limits in some areas of the lifestyle
<jen{SE}> exactly yummy, to go to that level, you are with someone who matches your believes
<jen{SE}> i trust SE not to take me someone He can't bring me back from
<jen{SE}> hmmm, somewhere
<yummy> but you got to know him before you got there - know him and trust him didn't you? or was that from day 1?
<MistressKatherine> no I feel that every Dom/me and subs limits are not the same
<MistressKatherine> all depends on the sort of D/s relationship your in or contracted too
<Varky> i think that too
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, not far from day 1
<yummy> how long did it take jen{SE}?
<lil^tigress> how would one decide that something is a soft limit or a hard limit
<jen{SE}> limits are always there, they may be unspoken but they are there in body language, body tolerances, emotional tolerances etc..
<Hamilton_Aaron> I think if something squicks you it's a hard limit. :-)
<shadoe{S}> i trusted Himself from the day i met Him
<shadoe{S}> instinct.. whatever.. i haven't been proven wrong
<jen{SE}> day 2 *lol*
<jen{SE}> agrees with shadoe{S}
<MistressKatherine> I would say a soft limit deals with intense pleasure while a hard limit deals with intense pain and suffering
<shadoe{S}> this was a guy i met over the internet.. he held a knife to my body the first time we scened.. i didn't flinch
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, not if you are a Maschocist MistressKatherine *lol*
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<MistressKatherine> that I am not into
<Sir_StephenS> definitely the squick test is applicable to limits
<`abi> I would say that hard limits are ones which are highly unlikely ever to be revoked
<MistressKatherine> explain squick test
<yummy> i don't know some thinks make me squick now but i can see doing them one day
<jen{SE}> limits are different for every couple, a sadist and a masochist have way different ones than a couple who are into control
<yummy> things
<`abi> soft limits are ones which are limits 'at the present time', but which have the potential to change
<MistressKatherine> yes i agree abi
<Hamilton_Aaron> No one said a hard limit can't change - it'll probably just take more time.
<Hamilton_Aaron> (if it changes at all.)
<MistressKatherine> true aggreed
<jen{SE}> limits change with time and experience
<Sir_StephenS> thats true, yummy..squick is a moving concept; MistressKatherine, I (think) the squick test occurs when something really turns you off
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<kammy{Riven}> greetings A/all
<lil^tigress> true.. some hard limits can change. .over time.. learning.. over a lot of things.. but would it be because in the end we wanted it to change
<shadoe{S}> and some limits have nothing to do with the physical.. and everything to do with the emotional.. if someone had told me 15 years ago that i'd be "obeying" a MAN... i'd have said bite me
<jen{SE}> to me a limit would be something that would do irreviserable damage to go there, that would be a hard limit
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* lil^tigress for those who just entered ..tonights topic is about LIMITS .. how, when why are limits pushed and when should they be if at all .. where do our limits come from
* jen{SE} waves night, have to go
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<yummy> do limits come from bad experiences or are they more "instinctive"?
<Sir_StephenS> I think I asked this on a previous session, but does anyone find themselves imposing new limits on things they used to do or thought they would like to the opposite of pushing
<`abi> I don't think they necessarily come from bad experiences yummy...I think they come from not wanting to have bad experiences
<jewel`{F}> yummy i think they can be both
<jewel`{F}> also a bit of fear of the unknown
<yummy> persoanlly i think they are both as i have had a few things go to near hard limits after being scared and/or hurt
<Varky> i would say both
<yummy> are any of yours from bad experiences jewel`{F}?
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<`abi> yes, Sir_StephenS ... there are things that I've tried and decided I didn't like and don't wish to do again ...not necessarily a limit in terms of 'wont do' though
<jewel`{F}> yes i did have some and still do that are from past or bad esperiences
<shadoe{S}> i'd say both as well.. for example, scat play is a limit for me because i personally find it really distasteful.. it has nothing to do with a bad experience
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<shadoe{S}> on the flip side.. age play is a hard limit because i did in fact have bad experiences as a child
<kammy{Riven}> i have had limits that Master has eased outta me....based on past bad experiences...and am grateful He did
<shadoe{S}> an example kammy?
<jewel`{F}> for me gags and spanking as in open hand spanking were areas that Master was very patient with me about due to a bad experience
<MistressKatherine> I feel a subs limits diff from Dom/me to Dom/me
<MistressKatherine> that is differ
<yummy> i know mine do depending on how much i trust the Dom/me
<MistressKatherine> right
<yummy> i will be much less trusting with someone i don't know
<kammy{Riven}> well anal for one shadoe{S}...
<shadoe{S}> *smiling at jewel*.. and i was asking for spankings before i even realized it had anything to do with this lifestyle
<yummy> but if someone knows me well i love to be pushed
<lil^tigress> but then is there anyone who doesnt enjoy being pushed .. when you get down to brass tacks that is
<jewel`{F}> my first spanking experience was not planned at all, i had no idea it was going to happen, and the person that did it hit me so hard they not only knocked my feet out from under me but left bruises that lasted 2 weeks with only 4 swats
<kammy{Riven}> i enjoy being pushed....puts me into deep subbie mode...true submission for Him
* `abi changes topic to 'BDSM in Southwestern Ontario ... Discussion topic : Limits'
<MistressKatherine> a sub could have a certain amount of limits with one top... yet with a more experienced top they may have a higher limit
<shadoe{S}> good lord.. jewel.. that doesnt really sound like a "typical" spanking.. at least not the starting out kind
<shadoe{S}> no wonder you had an aversion to it
<yummy> are spankings a limit now jewel`{F}?
<jewel`{F}> i do like when Master pushes my limits
<MistressKatherine> is all too do with your comfort zone with your top and your level of trust
<kammy{Riven}> thats too bad jewel`{F}...doesn't do much for "trust" when that happens
<yummy> i agree with you MistressKatherine
<jewel`{F}> they are not limits with Master no, but if i were not with Him it would take me a long time to build that trust up with someone else
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<`abi> it is partly to do with that MistressKatherine ... it's also partly to do with your own personal comfort levels with some things ... those may or may not change with partners
<jewel`{F}> i told Master about that and He was patient and worked very slowly into being able to spank me
<kammy{Riven}> thinks as trust builds, limits fade
<jewel`{F}> the odd playful swat here and there then one or 2 light swats in a scene
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<jewel`{F}> kammy{Riven} yes they do
<kammy{Riven}> had alot of limits in the beginning....
<lil^tigress> yes kammy{Riven} for a great many as trust builds between two people the limits change for each at least with the softer ones for a time or is there anyone who would disagree
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<SirPatrick> good evening
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<MistressKatherine> yes but a good and well experienced Dom/me has the ability to work on your pshycological side that can deffinately change your views on the lifestyle as your sub will open up and be more trust worthy towards you
<Varky> with soft ones - limits change - but for the hard ones ?
<jewel`{F}> i don't think anyone would disagree that with trust and patience that limits can change
<`abi> I think that it depends on what the limits are based upon
<kammy{Riven}> my trust in Master, grows....and in that my limits subside cos i know i can trust push them gently, or harshly, and not harm me physically or mentaly
<MistressKatherine> true abi
<`abi> trust can change the ones which are based on fear and inexperience
<jewel`{F}> maybe not all limits but some can change as one grows and learns more about themselves and the lifestyle
<MistressKatherine> and very true kammy
<kammy{Riven}> thank You Ma'am
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<MistressKatherine> the top must earn the trust of the bottom
<`abi> I also think that some limits get 'added' with experience
<kammy{Riven}> exactly Ma'am
<`abi> how often have you heard someone say "oh, I have no limits" and then discover that they have no limits only because they haven't really thought about it
<Varky> must go - nite all
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<kammy{Riven}> true abi
<kammy{Riven}> everyone has limits
<lil^tigress> some just do not realize or admit them even to themselves
<yummy> abi i have heard people say that, then it turns ou their Dom's limits are the same as theirs or they can't concieve of more than spanking
<MistressKatherine> right or have never experienced and once did find there is a limit
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<kammy{Riven}> even Dom/mes have limits
<MistressKatherine> right as I do also kammy
<yummy> have any Doms found that their subs wants them to go past their limits?
<jewel`{F}> that can happen too `abi, as well as seeing people say that they have hard limits only to see them doing exactly what they say is a hard limit, whether it is lack of knowledge of what they are actually saying is a hard limit and what they are doing being the same thing
<yummy> the Dom's limts that is
<MistressKatherine> there maybe some things that my sub or subs in my past have been into or involved in which i do not agree on nor will be apart of
<yummy> did you move your limits?
<MistressKatherine> I will not beat my sub too extreme blk and blue
<MistressKatherine> even if he allowed me too
<kammy{Riven}> personally i think personality has alot to do with limits for the Dom/mes...
<kammy{Riven}> and of course which aspects of bdsm they are into
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<lil^tigress> but kammy some dominants who are quiet in what some would say is vanilla life.. are.. down right evil at times in bdsm
<MistressKatherine> yes well
<MistressKatherine> put kammy
<Sir_StephenS> lol lil^tigress they say, watch out for the quiet ones
<kammy{Riven}> yes i know lil^tigress...and as well could be said for slaves/subbies
<lil^tigress> but then the other side of the coin. .is that some rough harsh people are really quiet as an opposite
<lil^tigress> true kammy so very true
<Sir_StephenS> I suppose a common limit for a Dom/me is when they decide not to do something because they feel it is not in the best interests of the sub
<MistressKatherine> my partner and I are in a 24/7 D/s relationship and my limits as a Domme are that I will not push him beyond my own comfort zone
<_dove> That is a good limit MistressKatherine, keeps the sub safe
<MistressKatherine> I dont feel comfortable in leaving him all marked up and sending him to work
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<Hamilton_Aaron> Yes, as I'm fairly new a lot of my limits are that I don't have enough experience to do something safely - wading in slowly-ish. :-)
<kammy{Riven}> control of the Dom/me so important in All aspects
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<_dove> Pushing a sub's limits can be very delicate
<kammy{Riven}> oooo yes dove..:))
<lil^tigress> true but what if intimidation was used in say a kidnap scene that the one knew about just not when or the full particulars.. would that be a real limit then
<MistressKatherine> workshops are a teaching tool to better the tops and bottoms in applying what we have learned in our scenes
<_dove> Depends on why that limit is / was in place
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<lil^tigress> any last comments before we wrap this up
<MistressKatherine> no it wouldnt be tigress
<MistressKatherine> becuz the victim knows it is going to happen
<kammy{Riven}> let the heart trust slowly.....and You will be taken beyond Your limits...both sub and Dom/me
<kammy{Riven}> and be grateful and thankful
<MistressKatherine> I would like to add that my subb aND I are the host of the Brantford Munch and invite any newbies to come and join in with us
<MistressKatherine> next munch will be posted on the ehbc list. oct 18
<lil^tigress> if any would like to continue this discussion please do so.. however I am closing the log
<MistressKatherine> nite all