September 21, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "The Nice Guy vs the Nasty Dom". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<delyssa> Evening Sir.
<Sir_StephenS> hi sinfuldesires
<aymelek> hello TW Sir
<sinfuldesires> hello Sir
* jewel`{F} slips in hugs `TimberWolf and delyssa
<sinfuldesires> hi jewel
<delyssa> Who's gonna start? *grins*
<slave_earl> will wager five on the Nasty Dom
<`TimberWolf> girls behave...and begin the discussion
* jewel`{F} hides then points to `TimberWolf nice gut
<jewel`{F}> guy even
<delyssa> uhm
<delyssa> lol
* aymelek always behaves
<Sir_StephenS> I believe the subs should start the discussion
<ravenswolf> and here i was going to vote for the Doms
* `abi starts the discussion ... okay, you're next Sir_StephenS
<Sir_StephenS> afterwards I'll chime with some insightful comments
<sinfuldesires> lol
<jewel`{F}> why does it have to be Nice Guy or Nasty Dom, can't there be a Nice Dom and a Nasty Guy?
<`TimberWolf> yes jewel`{F} there can be
<slave_earl> jewel`{F}, maybe next week
<Corporal> nick/private_beauty
<`TimberWolf> but when they reside in the same body...they are known as serial killers
<jewel`{F}> lol
<sinfuldesires> lol
<jewel`{F}> okay so what does that make You Sir?
* delyssa chuckles
<aymelek> munchkin even
<`TimberWolf> an asshole
<Sir_StephenS> haha!
<jewel`{F}> no comment
<Sir_StephenS> who's moderating this
<slave_earl> thinks the topic is sexist!
* sinfuldesires looks down and tries not to laugh
<delyssa> No moderator, I don't think.
<`TimberWolf> most things in this community everything seems to be based on exptremes
<jewel`{F}> according to ModBot's pm to me it is unmoderated
<`TimberWolf> niether in this case are accurate
<MasterGuny> not a god topic
<MasterGuny> good
<delyssa> I think it's an interesting topic.
<ravenswolf> me too
<sinfuldesires> has met both extremes and many things on the outer and inner edges
<Sir_StephenS> what is a nice guy, and what is a nasty guy
<Sir_StephenS> please discuss
<`abi> there has been a perception that one negates the other
<jewel`{F}> i know a quite a few Doms that are very nice people, but they can get real nasty or evil when they want to me
<jewel`{F}> be even
<delyssa> If I can struggle with the idea of being submissive to one, while being strong willed, opinionated and in control in other ways, do Dom/mes not possibly struggle with their role?
<delyssa> and being a strict, extreme, intense or rough Dom doesn't mean you're "nasty"
<jewel`{F}> nope it doesn't delyssa
<sinfuldesires> well who is going to define nasty
<`TimberWolf> put my quirt in mny hand and I will:)
<Sir_StephenS> agreed delyssa...but its hard to be nice when you are strict, extreme, intense and rough
<aymelek> nasty i think would very from person to person since everyone has different interests
<sinfuldesires> nasty as in a Man who thinks they are a Dom/Master because they have dabbled a bit online ?
<sinfuldesires> can be many interpretations
<delyssa> I disagree, Sir_StephenS... at least in my limited experience. If a Dom is strict, demanding or anything else with me, that does not mean he's not nice.
<ravenswolf> also doesn't mean he's nasty
<`TimberWolf> is nasty a bad thing>
<Sir_StephenS> I think the question is...does a person have to give up some elements of being nice in order to be a Dom? I believe that is the case.
<ravenswolf> depends on your definition of nasty
<private_beauty> what is meant by nasty?
<delyssa> I think in general terms, nasty is a bad thing. In the context of this discussion and bdsm in general, I think it's more of a comment on what we do, not who we are.
<QTIP> sociopathic?
<`abi> why do you believe that sinfuldesires?
<`TimberWolf> I believe I can be quite nasty at times......does that make me unfit to Dom....or perhaps morefit to DOM
<`abi> oops why do you believe that Sir_StephenS
<jewel`{F}> Master is very firm and strict with me, He can also be very intense and rough during a scene, but He is far from nasty
<`TimberWolf> is it not a possiblity to be nasty in a sadistic way?
<sinfuldesires> agree with that Sir
<delyssa> but that doesn't mean it's bad or wrong, TW, right?
<`TimberWolf> not at all my girl
<Sir_StephenS> my interpretation of a 'nice guy', abi, does not fit my interpretation of domination
<aymelek> Sir StephenS do You think nice guys can't Dom then?
<delyssa> But, Sir_StephenS... is that not also partially due to the concept of being dominant vs. domineering?
<`abi> why not Sir_StephenS?
<janizz> nice guy = loving, caring, respectful, responsible, compassionate....isnt the signs of a Top Sir_StephenS
<slave_earl> seems to me, W/we are trying to define nasty in vanilla terms
<private_beauty> but then does it mean Sir StephenS that you cannot be a nice guy if your dominate?
<slave_earl> would the definition be different in D/s terms?
<Sir_StephenS> first, nice guys can dom, in fact they may have an exceptional need for it, as a balance to their nice side
<QTIP> I've looked into the eyes of a sub I'd been cruel and somewhat brutal to in a training session and thought, "I care for you."
<`TimberWolf> if Bernie will forgive me......I don't think anyone would argue he is generally known as the nicest guy in SW ontario...does that mean he is not a good DOM....or even does it mean he is not sadistically nasty when the time comes to be so?
<private_beauty> oh hell Bernies can be very nasty
<Sir_StephenS> very true, Timberwolf; those two aspects coexist
<delyssa> but that doesn't negate the fact that Bernie is a nice guy
<`TimberWolf> exactly private_beauty
<private_beauty> but in that instance nasty is very nice
<`TimberWolf> I have never considered being nasty a negative trait
<delyssa> I'd never want to be with a Dom I didn't think was a considerate, nice, kind person... but that doesn't mean I'd want him to be a pushover either.
<private_beauty> so nice guy with nasty undertones then delyssa?
<janizz> ~enjoy~
<delyssa> I wouldn't be involved with anyone... Dom, friend, lover, etc. that I didn't think was nice. But that is totally separate from their role as a Dom/me, imho
<`TimberWolf> I would say that a nasty streak is almost a prerequisit, to being a DOM
<Sir_StephenS> I do still believe there is an inherent conflict in the actions to be nice, and the actions associated with dominance, either vanilla or scene; those two words just don't go together, as much as we would like
<QTIP> In my opinion, the nastiest thing I could imagine in a relationship is acting without conscience. That includes lying.
* jen{SE} *smiles*, you have to be cruel to be kind
<`TimberWolf> exactly jen
<`abi> on the contrary Sir_StephenS, I think that they must go together in the BDSM context ... or what you have is abuse, not D/s
* delyssa agrees with abi.
<Sir_StephenS> basically, 'dominance' is not a 'nice' thing, imo
<ravenswolf> i agree abi
<private_beauty> very good point abi
<Sir_StephenS> which does NOT make it abuse, though
<ravenswolf> dominance can be veryyyyyyyyy nice Sir Stephens - but dominance without the caring 'nice' aspect can be abuse
<delyssa> If a Dom I was with was being mean simply to hurt me, or spite me, that's totally different than someone being almost rough on me with demands in an effort to teach and guide me.
<jewel`{F}> there is no way that i would let Fyre dominate me if i thought He didn't care about me
* DarkAngel^ likes being mean *Evil Smile*
<`abi> it's a very nice thing ... but it requires the ability to balance sadism with caring
<ravenswolf> exactly
<Sir_StephenS> I guess I associate the words differently; caring is not nice, not being nice is not abusive, imo
<jewel`{F}> Sir_StephenS so a Dom can't be nice, or caring?
<`abi> and to use sadism to satisfy the needs of the bottom, which arguably isn't sadism .. but it is certainly both nasty and nice
<jewel`{F}> say by helping out a sub of a Friend when it was needed?
<Sir_StephenS> those are two different things, I believe jewel`{F}
<Sir_StephenS> when someone refers to me as 'nice' I know they are not referring to any sort of dominant action I have taken...quite the reverse
<jewel`{F}> are they? even if that same Dom can also be very strict, and firm in His expectations
<`abi> no one has ever said "Wow, that was nice!" at the end of a scene Sir_StephenS?
<ravenswolf> the two terms are not mutually exclusive - at least not in my head
<Sir_StephenS> sure, but those are different sorts of behaviour, jewel`{F}
<Sir_StephenS> and "that's nice" is an expression
<DarkAngel^> it took me over 1/2 hour to get in tonight ,,, and I think I am lagging
<DarkAngel^> ouch
<BernieRoehl> I was lagging earlier, but I disconnected and reconnected, and it seems fine now
<`abi> not nice.... Nice.... and it generally means that something has been greatly enjoyed and seen as a pleasurable thing ... nice
* delyssa brings DA up to speed
* `TimberWolf watches delyssa and DA
<DarkAngel^> ok,, back to the discussion
<`TimberWolf> hmmmmm
<`abi> "That's nice" when you're wearing plaid pants is an expression, at the end of a good scene, it's a compliment
<DarkAngel^> well `abi ,,, I havent gotten "that's nice" ,, but I have gotten moans and soft purrs
<`TimberWolf> ok what about the perception that "nice guys finish last" does that apply to Dom's as well
<BernieRoehl> I came in late and missed much of the discussion, but I recall that the original idea of the topic was the contrast between a "nice guy" (caring, considerate, gentle, etc) with being a "nasty" Dom
<motoki> nasty in what sense?
<sinfuldesires> exactly
<`TimberWolf> nice Dom's are less desirable than a nasty one?????
<`abi> unless you give permission for her to finish after you TW
<`TimberWolf> lol abi
<BernieRoehl> Nasty in the sense of cruel, "evil", sadistic and other fun stuff
<sinfuldesires> so nasty in a good way'?
<motoki> both have their place
<BernieRoehl> yes
<motoki> i don't think it's either/or
* DarkAngel^ tels BernieRoehl to stop talking about him ,,, I am blushing
<sinfuldesires> lol
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<jewel`{F}> well if they are nasty in that way i would think they are a nice guy
<private_beauty> that casts things in a whole new light then
<`TimberWolf> actually Bernie, in the conversation you missed I used you as an example
* BernieRoehl smiles
<motoki> if they are nasty in the sense of not slowing down to let you out of the car - that sucks
<BernieRoehl> I look forward to reading the discussion log!
<sinfuldesires> well nasty in that context.... that would mean that some of the Dom's would fall into both catagories
<`TimberWolf> typically Bernie is considered a very nice guy, and not surprisingly so....he is also considered a nasty DOM
<BernieRoehl> I enjoy the balance between the two
<sinfuldesires> agrees
<DarkAngel^> he is a mean bastard ,,,,Mmm isnt he *innocent grin*
<`TimberWolf> I think they can go hand in an effect well balanced DOM
<delyssa> but nasty, in that instance is meant as a glowing recommendation.
<motoki> like Capt Kirk in that one episode with his good side & bad side LOL
<Sir_StephenS> yeah...or Dr. Jeckyll and you know who
<sinfuldesires> personally in what i look for there would be substantial qualities from each catagory to make someone interesting in my eyes
<DarkAngel^> It covers the rainge that many woman do want ,,, a dangerous nice guy ,,,, yes ?
<BernieRoehl> Which do you find more appealing initially, sinfuldesires?
<private_beauty> exactly DA
<`TimberWolf> I think most Doms in their life time have gone through a period where they surpressed some of their more nasty tendencies, thinking they were not appropriate in polite society
<Sir_StephenS> are we talking nasty as being a compliment, basically
<private_beauty> someone you can trust to be mean
* BernieRoehl throws that question open to everyone... which is the stronger initial "hook"?
<sinfuldesires> well personally I look to make sure that a Dom does have the qualities to be relaxed , kind, inquisitive so the nice guy is who I would first be looking at
<jen{SE}> the entire person BernieRoehl, not just a side of Him
<BernieRoehl> Fair enough, jen, but I'm curious about first impressions
<sinfuldesires> without the nice aspects what you have left is just abuse is it not?
<ravenswolf> i look for dominant - if he has that - then the rest can be sorted out afterwards
<jen{SE}> i have in the past been attracted to some people consider the quintessential nice guy as well as some that would be considered nasty
<private_beauty> yes jen but what was the first thing you noticed, the chair pulling or the hair pulling?
<`abi> I think nasty grabs my attention first]
<Sir_StephenS> what about the subs who look for the 'look of dominance', sinfuldesires...the relaxed and kind person would strike out
* BernieRoehl smiles at private_beauty's clever wordplay!
<`TimberWolf> is that because it is more of an attention getter abi
<`abi> nice guys are everywhere ... nasty is sexier and harder to find
<Sir_StephenS> yes, abi, agreed
<`TimberWolf> nice tends to be more subtle?
<jen{SE}> *lol*, well since i've been with the King of hair pullers for over three years now , i would have to say hair puller *lol*
<Sir_StephenS> very much so, abi...nice guys are a dime-a-dozen
<`abi> Subtle has never really been my thing TW ;)
<sinfuldesires> well I beleive that Doms can be nice while being dominate, there is definetly an air about most Dom's that a sub/slaves will pick up on even when they are being "nice"
<jen{SE}> i am attracted to what i call fire... it's in the eyes
<delyssa> For me, I needed "nice" to feel comfortable beginning to explore this, even if some people didn't see "nice" in the same way I did.
<jen{SE}> some nice guys have the fire, some nasty ones...
<Sir_StephenS> hmm..its all so complex
<delyssa> but I didn't want someone so nice that I wouldn't experience what I needed and wanted to explore.
<sinfuldesires> true delyssa
<motoki> i need a bit more Dom than "nice guy" to open up at first
<motoki> but they aren't mutually exclusive
* DarkAngel^ is enjoying the conversation ,,, but cant stay ,,, lookingforward to reading the log .... - afk
* BernieRoehl nods
<delyssa> No... a Dom that can be nice when necessary, but without letting that negate his power, position and role within our dynamic.
<`TimberWolf> lol delyssa I believe your perspectives are messed up though, since you classify me as nice:)
<Sir_StephenS> thats interesting motoki; how would the Dom actually behave, compared to the "nice guy"
* motoki nods
<delyssa> well, as I said, Sir... there are some who would think I couldn't tell a nice guy from an axe murderer.
<motoki> hmm i guess by taking the reins as appropriate
<sinfuldesires> still thinks that most doms are a coupling of each characteristic
* motoki agrees with sinful
* jewel`{F} agrees with delyssa about TW being a nice guy
* `TimberWolf hides his axe collection
<`abi> the toys are sharper delyssa
<BernieRoehl> I agree as well, and ultimately I think we all see that there needs to be a mix of the two
<BernieRoehl> What's interesting is what "works" for some people and what doesn't
<sinfuldesires> and for each sub/slave we each look for different mixtures of the Doms characteristics to compliment ourselves
* BernieRoehl nods
<Sir_StephenS> I agree sinfuldesires; my point was that one can't be everything all the time, so there is a trade off
<`TimberWolf> no Sir_StephenS but what you must be all the time is yourself
<sinfuldesires> see I disagree though Sir
<motoki> if nice gets in the way of the Dom/sub, it's too nice - if Dominating gets in the way of respect and being "nice", it's too Dom
<`TimberWolf> and that person is sometimes nice...sometimes nasty....just hopefully never boring
<sinfuldesires> I truely believe that one can be both "nasty" in that context we have set out and "nice"
<delyssa> I think some are confusing nice with being easygoing... I know I do it sometimes, wanting to get off easy and not getting that free ride (so to speak) but that doesn't mean someone's not being "nice"
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, like attracts like, i find i will always be attracted to someone who matches my wants and needs
<sinfuldesires> easygoing or a pushover
<Sir_StephenS> good point delyssa
<motoki> a pushover Dom - isn't that an oxymoron?
<`abi> I agree sinfuldesires ... there is nothing quite like having someone take you to your knees (literally or figuratively) and then lean in to whisper that he loves you
<sinfuldesires> exactly
<private_beauty> it's out there motoki
<motoki> mmmmm
* motoki lingers on abi's last comments and grins
* spirited_sassy just smiles
<jewel`{F}> feels pretty good doesn't it abi
* `TimberWolf snaps his finger...ok class wake up!
<Sir_StephenS> yeah abi! I can do that
<sinfuldesires> being flogged or punished, but still feeling the gentle support of a Dom's arm or a tender word during a scene or whatnot classifies both catagories at once does it not?
<motoki> ohhh yes
<`TimberWolf> opps guess I snapped spirited sassy to hard
<Sir_StephenS> you are talking about contrast, sinfuldesires, which exaggerates the feelings of each
<Sir_StephenS> its very powerful stuff when you mix the two together
<BernieRoehl> When this topic came up previously, one observation was that it's sometimes difficult for the Dom to reconcile their feelings of tenderness and affection for their submissive with the desire to be nasty and mean with them
* sinfuldesires ponders that
<`TimberWolf> yes an interesting struggle
<ravenswolf> someone recently told me that it's very hard to dominate the one you love
<motoki> how do you guys do it?
<BernieRoehl> Many Doms have said exactly that, ravenswolf
<delyssa> So, how do Dom/mes reconcile that? I know many subs/slaves struggle with their own dualities of personalities.
<BernieRoehl> It's a very common (and therefore interesting) struggle
<private_beauty> i have heard it the other way, where the Dom has a difficult time being as nasty as they should because of the affection they feel towards their sub
<jen{SE}> hmmm, the meanest thing He could do would be withdraw the Dominance so to maintain the Dominance is actually being nice
<delyssa> Is it difficult to dominate the one you love, or does that level of emotion also add to the richness of the dynamic?
<jen{SE}> i find it very much adds to it delyssa
<BernieRoehl> Yes, same issue private_beauty
<`abi> but it requires a deprogramming of sorts ... after years of societal conditioning to the contrary
<`TimberWolf> personally I often find it easier to allow the inner demon out...with someone I know loves and accepts me
<private_beauty> yes <<<<<slow typist
<Sir_StephenS> Bernie, thats what I meant before, about a tradeoff, which arises from the struggle to reconcile
<QTIP> perhaps the nastiest thing about being kinky is not accepting that part of oneself
<`abi> I think it requires a self-acceptance and self-awareness which ultimately is part of what makes kinky people more interesting than their vanilla counterparts
<delyssa> Does that inner struggle ever go away?
<Sir_StephenS> excellent comment abi about the deprogramming
<`TimberWolf> I have always found it difficult to understand how someone can play with a stranger...or someone they can't does that DOm relax enough to trust that takes trust for a DOM to beat a girl without merci
<`abi> it is a thankless job
<QTIP> and an ego trip for both ;-)
<jen{SE}> sometimes it just takes testosterone (sp)
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, TW, and yet there's a certain... freedom that comes from not having prior relationship dynamics to take into consideration
<jewel`{F}> if they don't know the sub well how do they know that she isn't goint to turn on him if she doesn't like the way the scene turned out?
* delyssa coughs
<BernieRoehl> Some of the most physically intense scenes I've ever done have been with people I'd just started playing with
<jen{SE}> and there are scenes and there are scenes, most won't beat without merci someone they don't know *lol*, that takes a couple of dates
<`TimberWolf> BernieRoehl, anyone that can do braver than I
<`TimberWolf> I am a nasty SOB once I trust the one I play with...but until then...I am literally afraid in some ways to allow the beast out
<BernieRoehl> Mind you, I generally do my homework about someone before doing an intense first scene
<delyssa> But BernieRoehl... isn't there a difference between playing with someone for the first time, but you've known them and seen them with others vs. playing with a near total stranger for the first time?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, absolutely delyssa
<`TimberWolf> I see how it would be incredibly powerful BernieRoehl
<jen{SE}> *smiles* and remembers my first scene with SE neither one of us had seen the other play before... it was an eye opener
<BernieRoehl> For example (and I mention this because I know she won't mind), the first time I played with Sarah at the very first DAL was a very heavy scene -- but we had mutual friends, and we negotiated a *lot* before playing
<`TimberWolf> interesting
<BernieRoehl> And of course, when playing with someone for the first time, you have to really read their reactions -- you can't assume *anything*
<spirited_sassy> i agree BernieRoehl
<spirited_sassy> body language is key
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<jen{SE}> hmmm, that would be an interesting discussion, reading a body or body language, because there are so many differnt types of reactions to scening
<`TimberWolf> now Bernie, becuse you need to accurately read someones reactions in a case like that....did you find it harder to lose yourself in the scene
<BernieRoehl> Yes, TW -- very true
<BernieRoehl> Good idea, jen! I'll add it to the topic list
* jen{SE} gets them every now and then
<BernieRoehl> Certainly, when I play with leigh, it's easier to get into "the Dom zone" because I don't have to be learning my partner as I play
<BernieRoehl> With a new partner it's more difficult than with a long-term partner
<jen{SE}> it also ties to tonights topic, nice or nasty, some Dominants when they play appear quite nasty where others laugh and converse their way through a scene, but i would guess the end result to the bottom would be the same
<jen{SE}> so does reading the Dominant's body language/style what gives the impression of nasty or nice
<spirited_sassy> perception......others perception
<jen{SE}> when some of the nastiest play i've seen has been done by a Dominant with an angelic face *lol*
<jen{SE}> exactly spirited_sassy
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.