September 18, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Ethics in BDSM". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<jen{SE}> hmm,,, does the turnout have anything to do with the topic
<catsbrat{CM}> it is possible
<jen{SE}> Hello Sir Seville
<Seville{s}> hey jen
<`abi{A}> well there's a stranger ... it takes a discussion in ethics to bring you out again?
<Seville{s}> did the discussion turn into krplach?
<Seville{s}> laughing
<Seville{s}> I have very few ethics abi
<jen{SE}> yep, no discussion so far
<spirited_sassy{CP}> we were waiting for you Sir
<Seville{s}> and tha tis why I M LOVED
* `abi{A} smiles... lovely to see you Sir
<Seville{s}> ty sassy
<Seville{s}> so ethics?
<Seville{s}> who has them?
<Seville{s}> and what do they cost
<Seville{s}> ?
<`abi{A}> everyone has them. The ones without them are the people who have ethics which differ from your own.
<Seville{s}> I'm seeing by the list here that probably the submissives have more than the dominants
<Seville{s}> when are you running for office abi?
<`abi{A}> right after Dr. Eva gets elected
<`abi{A}> honestly...have you ever met anyone who didn't believe they were ethical?
<Seville{s}> nope
* jen{SE} digging around in her cupboards looking for her ethics
<Seville{s}> every one believes that they are ethical but their actions belie their words
<Seville{s}> but there are ethics of honour abd then there are situational ethics
<`abi{A}> so either everyone is or no one is
<Seville{s}> sheeesh I wish I could type with a cat on my lap
<`abi{A}> that's no challenge...the challenge is typing with one on your keyboard
<`abi{A}> cats are completely unethical
<jen{SE}> is there any base ethics.... or do they change based on political or religious believes
<Seville{s}> laughing
<Seville{s}> base ethics
<Seville{s}> hmmmmmmmm
<`abi{A}> of course they do jen...that's called moral relativity
<Seville{s}> probably some ideals that people should uphold
<Seville{s}> like honesty, trust etc
<Seville{s}> but in reality many people have shaded meanings for all of those
<`abi{A}> sounds lovely Seville{s} ... but is brutal honesty ethical?
<`abi{A}> is blind trust ethical?
<Seville{s}> brutal honesty is usually a disguise for someone to be cruel
<jen{SE}> nods and agrees
<spirited_sassy{CP}> agreed
<`abi{A}> precicely .. and while cruelty is sometimes very say therefore that 'honesty' is a base ethical value, doesn't quite hold\
<Seville{s}> anytime I see a sentance whiche starts...."I'm just being honest"...I know that the person is lying
<`abi{A}> my personal favourite is "I shouldn't be saying this, but..."
<Seville{s}> is the cruelty to harm the other person?
<Seville{s}> mentally or physically?
<`abi{A}> so...the morality is based on intent, not action
<Seville{s}> I've seen people be cruel to you abi
<`abi{A}> I know...and they are some of my favourite people!
<Seville{s}> but never to destroy you as a person
<`abi{A}> so...then the means justify the ends
<`abi{A}> which works until the desired 'end' shifts
<Seville{s}> I know you are being a bit of a sophist right now but you know the difference
<Seville{s}> did you sign up for the means justifies the ends?
<Seville{s}> if so then yes you are correct
<`abi{A}> my end couldn't take it
<Seville{s}> so what did you do?
<`abi{A}> seriously, there cannot be universal morality as long as there is change
<`abi{A}> and change is the only certainty
<Seville{s}> change is truly universal
<Seville{s}> ah nothing like philosphy to drive folks away
<Seville{s}> or my spelling
<`abi{A}> yes...and morals will always change with it....whatever 'it' is
<Seville{s}> expediancy
<jen{SE}> morals change based on culture, in some cultures it is moral to beat your wife
<Seville{s}> that would be the it
<jen{SE}> in others it is not moral to have sex except to procreate....
* jen{SE} avoids the no sex culture
<`abi{A}> there 'personal morality'?
<Seville{s}> sex ethics?
<Seville{s}> are they related?
<Seville{s}> smiling
<`abi{A}> or is that relative too?
<Seville{s}> not for me
<`abi{A}> because.....
<Seville{s}> I have a personal morality but hmmmmmmmmm
<Seville{s}> sometimes it has not been accepted by others
<jen{SE}> i believe i have my morals, they mean not much to others, but they are mine..
<`abi{A}> which is what makes it personal morality and not social or universal morality
<`abi{A}> so, why is it important?
<Seville{s}> well it's only personal because all those other people won;t get with the program and agree with what I say
<Seville{s}> I mean what's so hard about that?
<`abi{A}> it would save so much time Seville{s}!
<Seville{s}> I think so.
<jen{SE}> specailly sincse some of Yours Sir, involve, good food and good wine
<Seville{s}> and good people
<jen{SE}> oops, went comman crazy ther for a moment
<Seville{s}> ok this morning
* jen{SE} does not have a cat on my lap or keyboard to blame for my poor typing
<Seville{s}> I saw a couple walking down the street
<Seville{s}> Queen street
<Seville{s}> and she was quite obviously in some sub mode and walking to show
<Seville{s}> how totally she was controlled
<Seville{s}> no leash
<Seville{s}> no chains
<Seville{s}> just a glazed look
<Seville{s}> and the appearance of deep satiation and control
<jen{SE}> ahhh, the thing behind the thing.. (a Lady Nichola quote)
<`abi{A}> you shouldn't let shadoe walk around like that, there's alot of traffic on Queen Street
<Seville{s}> ethically is that ok to parade so naked on the street?
<Seville{s}> for me sure
<`abi{A}> I don't think that ethics are about 'what other people will think'
<Seville{s}> but for others they would say that it was non consentual
<Seville{s}> or some other dreck
<motoki> sometimes just being on Queen St is nonconsentual
<Seville{s}> there is no island abi
<Seville{s}> laughing motoki
<Seville{s}> and thank ghod for that
<`abi{A}> personal ethics are about what you can live with and why you can live with it
<`abi{A}> social ethics are about what other people will allow you to live with and why (and that's subject to frequent change)
<Seville{s}> you know what abi?
<`abi{A}> probably not Seville{s}
<Seville{s}> for being so smart
<`abi{A}> You are going to cook for me?
<Seville{s}> you deserve some application of personal ethics
<`abi{A}> lol...I don't think that's allowed in public
<Seville{s}> and I would be happy to cook for you
<Seville{s}> talk to my social convenor and let
<Seville{s}> 's set a time
* `abi{A} smiles
<Seville{s}> seee
<Seville{s}> I am ethically food easy
<`abi{A}> is that the same as ethnic food?
<Seville{s}> pretty much
<`abi{A}> that I've sung for my supper....are there currently ethical standards in the BDSM community at large?
<`abi{A}> safe
<`abi{A}> sane
<`abi{A}> consensual?
<`abi{A}> leave no footprints, take only pictures
<`abi{A}> oh wait, that's hiking ethics
<motoki> more leather
<Seville{s}> I think that the current ethical standard is don't ask don't tell
<Seville{s}> which is pretty darn sad
<`abi{A}> Well, usually ethical standards evolve to address a change .. and I think the community has become too large for 'be discreet' to be enough
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<`abi{A}> but why do you think it's sad Seville{s}?
<Seville{s}> I think that is is sad because it advocates group think over personal responsibility
<motoki> not necessarily - i think that depends on the group or subgroup involved
<Seville{s}> I don't personally believe that we need the level of rules that are currently being imposed
<`abi{A}> in general, would you say that personal morality is better than group morality?
<jen{SE}> just had a conversation recently where it was mentioned that in the "old" days people would discuss the party and the play they saw, it was a way to learn and to share the experience.... now not acceptable
<Seville{s}> and if you can make the case that we do then the current group is way too large and it's time to opt out for smaller groups
<Seville{s}> so that those kind of rules are not necessary
<`abi{A}> but in those 'old days' jen...we pretty much knew everyone who was at the party ..that's no longer the case
<motoki> perhaps smaller groups in Seville's living room *g*
<Seville{s}> well you had an invite if I recall
<Seville{s}> then we have to change the party abi
<`abi{A}> I don't think it's an either/or thing Seville{s} .. I think that there is a place for the larger group and the smaller group
<motoki> i still owe you balance, Sir
<motoki> so to speak
<Seville{s}> of course people can choose the party size that fits them
<`abi{A}> and the 'ethics' of those groups will be different
<`abi{A}> or they can choose both
<Seville{s}> personally I choose smaller without the odious rules
<Seville{s}> many others disagree with me
<Seville{s}> but hmmmmm
<Seville{s}> I don't care
<motoki> i think the community *is* breaking off into smaller groups
<motoki> we were talking about this recently ... maybe at camp
<jen{SE}> both have a draw and serve meet differnt needs
<`abi{A}> I'm happy to play in small groups with no rules...but I also like playing in larger groups...and there, I want rules
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Seville{s}> but there is the difference abi