September 17 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

* DarkAngel^ points to the clock ,,, let the discusion begin ,,, and we can skip all the Hi ,, Goodbyes
<this`lil`kitten> 'lo jen
<mystic`celt> hi arhiannah{R}
<mystic`celt> oops
* mystic`celt takes back the hi
<DarkAngel^> has anyone swung ?.. in a BDSM setting ?
<mystic`celt> no, was poly tho
* jen^^ has not
<mystic`celt> but only to Master and sister sub
* arhiannah{R} hasn't
* DarkAngel^ raises his hand *evil grin*
<kathryn_kw> ok Stephen take it away
<kathryn_kw> the discussion is being logged.. anyone having difficulty with that please change your nick etc
<becky{BH2}> my apologices.. seems i have the wrong Stephen here...
<DarkAngel^> uh oh
<kathryn_kw> maybe we can begin by asking is poly similar to swinging ?
<DarkAngel^> lol
<kathryn_kw> np becky
<Stephen_S> yep, np becky
<DarkAngel^> is it ?
<jen^^> doesn't think so, poly is still commited relationship, swinging is no commitments
<DarkAngel^> is it ?... swinging (vanilla) can be with good friends ,, just one couple,, or even a 3some
* jen^^ notes, my computer is misbehaving, can someone else log, just in case, i will continue the log as well
<Sweetone{LT}> i can if you want
<becky{BH2}> no poly is more about a relationship shared by 3 or more... swinging is .. well who knows who ones partner might be next week.. no real realtionship.. i believe
* jen^^ thanks Sweetone{LT} :-)
<DarkAngel^> so is (I do not know) poly only a BDSM term ?
<arhiannah{R}> not necessarily
<mystic`celt> no, the mormans are poly
<mystic`celt> so i would say not just bdsm
<DarkAngel^> ok,, kewl
<becky{BH2}> poly hasn't a thing to do with bdsm.. it's a seperate lifestyle
<dalian> as i see it, a poly relationship is one built on the foundation of a long term comittment...swinging is well...varied and spontaneous in nature
<becky{BH2}> tho the two poly and bdsm could be nicely compatable *s*
<mystic`celt> actually there is a large population in bdsm that would not agree with you becky
<mystic`celt> i was collared to a Master who had another collared slave
<becky{BH2}> oki mystic`celt... please explain ?
<DarkAngel^> I agree ,, I do not think since some things are not part of MY kink ,, I can say they cant be a part of anouthers lifestyle
<mystic`celt> and there are many poly relationships that i was aware of being on a poly mail list
<dalian> but i don't think the philosophy behind a poly relationship is directly related to bdsm lifestyle
<becky{BH2}> agreed dalian
<mystic`celt> well becky, my sister and i belonged to our Master, we shared the house in a 24/7 relationship, serving him
<mystic`celt> we slept in the same bed as he did, and we played together
<mystic`celt> and it was a bdsm relationship
<arhiannah{R}> i think bdsm'ers have incorporated poly as an acceptable form or variation of the lifestyle...
<DarkAngel^> well neither is bi ,,, or homosexuality ,, either is swapping,, or is casual play ,,,, or are we wrong in drawing the lines based on OUR interests
<mystic`celt> yes arhiannah{R}, that is what i saw
<DarkAngel^> I agree arhiannah{R}
<mystic`celt> i think the problem i have with swinging is that there is no long term commitment
<DarkAngel^> I think polly is or can be a part ,,, totaly depends on the couple,, or grouping
<mystic`celt> where as with poly, the commitment is as firm as a d/s couple who are just two
<arhiannah{R}> right DA....OUR own interests aren't always what another believes....therefore, tolerance is a must (imho)
<dalian> but is the poly relationship in a bdsm environment meant to be a poly relationship...or one to provide a variation in the lifestyle?
<mystic`celt> it is ment to be both dalian sis
<DarkAngel^> I think Almost anything can be part of a BDSM lifestyle
<kathryn_kw> i can be both or either
<arhiannah{R}> nods
<kathryn_kw> depending on the people
<mystic`celt> some tho, are poly without the collar
<mystic`celt> i know a couple near here who are collared but also bring in other submissives to play with them both
<kathryn_kw> personally i think all parties would have to be very together people and very comforrtable to make it work
<DarkAngel^> when going to a Play Party ,, if I should casually play with a fem sub I just met there ,,,, is that very different from picking her up in a bar ?... especially if her Dom is there and watches/joins me
<dalian> and some wear the collar but are not truly poly
<mystic`celt> what makes it work kathryn_kw, is that there has to be trust, and really good communication
<kathryn_kw> too avoud potential jealousies insecurities and possessiveness ?
<kathryn_kw> by one or more of those involved ?
<mystic`celt> yes, you need to bring any problems out right away or they can rapidly grow into insurmountable ones
<dalian> i sometimes wonder how a Dom/me can handle the responsibilities of not just one sub but two in equal measures
<mystic`celt> if its casual DarkAngel^ i think then it becomes swinging rather than a true poly relationship
* mystic`celt laughs
<kathryn_kw> hi cliantha
<mystic`celt> well dalian, most are unable to, that is why i had to return my collar, not because of my submission or behaviour
<DarkAngel^> true mystic`celt ,,, especially since we were talking about swinging ,, and got sidetracked with polly
<kathryn_kw> well are swining and poly related or very different ?
<mystic`celt> but because the Dom was unable to get over the feelings of guilt he had at not giving my sister and myself the attention he thought we should be getting
<Sweetone{LT}> very different
<mystic`celt> even tho neither of us had felt that way
* dalian agrees with Sweetone{LT}
<kathryn_kw> ok Sweetone can you elaborate ?
<kathryn_kw> makes sense mystic ?
<Sweetone{LT}> poly is within the relationship, swinging is with others from outside the relationship
<mystic`celt> makes sense, but hurts like crazy to hear it
<becky{BH2}> kath doesn't involve the kind of commitment that a poly relationship does.. so quite different in that respect
<kathryn_kw> ok good definition
<mystic`celt> hard to know you did no wrong
<kathryn_kw> another good point becky
<becky{BH2}> that almost made sense.... sheezs
<mystic`celt> yes becky i agree totally
<kathryn_kw> lol
<mystic`celt> poly is more like a family of three or more
<kathryn_kw> so is commitment the key ?
<mystic`celt> swinging is strangers passing in the night
<mystic`celt> yes, very much so
<arhiannah{R}> i think so kath, yes
<DarkAngel^> so is that mean swinging is very simmilar to casual play ?
<becky{BH2}> true mystic`celt
<kathryn_kw> ok good
<mystic`celt> yes DarkAngel^, in my eyes it is
<dalian> i think so...even if the swingers are a common group...the comittment simply is not there
<kathryn_kw> so poly can work with the right people but are we saying that swinging cannot coincide with bdsm ?
<kathryn_kw> if commitment is the key
<candie```> swinging is casual play.. no commitment...
<Sweetone{LT}> why can't swinging coicide with bdsm?
<kathryn_kw> then what about subs or Dom/mes who are uncollared and play with many different partners
<arhiannah{R}> no..i don't think that's quite right can coexist
<kathryn_kw> no commitment
<mystic`celt> swinging can work in bdsm, but there is not a commitment there
<DarkAngel^> I think it does kathryn_kw ,,, I have always thought casual play was very related to each other
<kathryn_kw> so what is the difference .?
<Sweetone{LT}> isn't it 'swinging' of sorts if a dom lets another dom use his charge?
<kathryn_kw> playing devils advocate i am :)
* cliantha{Mlt} thinks swinging is fun :)...and easier then poly
<mystic`celt> casual play, and swinging are one and the same i thing
<mystic`celt> think
<arhiannah{R}> right..i agree mystic`celt
* candie``` agrees with cliantha{Mlt}
<mystic`celt> but much more dangerous sis
* DarkAngel^ didnt realy enjoy swinging ,,, wasnt enough conection
<mystic`celt> not only for health reasons, but for safety
* dalian will try almost anything once ;)
<cliantha{Mlt}> agreed mystic`celt...point taken
<candie```> DarkAngel^ there can be connection with the right people... my husband and I don't swing with people for one night stands.. we want a friendship
<mystic`celt> well, i went to this swingers club in Michigan
<cliantha{Mlt}> physical pain is often easier then emotional pain
<dalian> alot easier!
<mystic`celt> there were literaly mattresses all over the floor
<cliantha{Mlt}> still very important to know who you are swinging with
<kathryn_kw> well ok but here i would assume. that if you were going to get into bdsm with " swingers " i would expect they would at least have an interest in it if not some possible experience
<DarkAngel^> agreed candie``` ,,, and that click,,,, spark ,, is what makes ANY relationship work
* candie``` nods
<mystic`celt> and people simple looked eachother over, and nodded, went upstairs and screwed, in all sorts of groups, most without condoms
<kathryn_kw> i doubt vanilla swingers would play bdsm games
<dalian> that is scary
<kathryn_kw> or am i mistaken here ?
* candie``` looks at kathryn_kw
<mystic`celt> actually they do use floggers, and had harness setups, as well as massage type tables
* candie``` smiles
<mystic`celt> there are rooms where you could go, and screw anyone there
<DarkAngel^> sounds like court
<mystic`celt> i mean literally arms and legs all over the place
<Sweetone{LT}> well, that is by choice
<DarkAngel^> oops *evil chuckle*
<kathryn_kw> lol i must be nieve then :)
<kathryn_kw> smile
<becky{BH2}> lol
<mystic`celt> but you have no idea who you are with, what they like, what limits they have
<kathryn_kw> ok so realy what we are talking about is basicly sex or play with total strangers would constiute swinging as opposed to poly/bdsm
<mystic`celt> i mean even in the hot tub they are having sex
<DarkAngel^> well vanilla ,,, would they realy get neer anyones limits ?
<candie```> mystic`celt not all swinging is like that tho.. that is a very dangerous way of swinging
<kathryn_kw> casual onne night stands and no commitment ?
<mystic`celt> that is what they call swinging in the states from what i saw
<mystic`celt> no commitment at all
<dalian> that kind of spontaneity could be fun if practised safely...woulldn't want a steady diet of it though
<mystic`celt> it was not really spontaneous tho, you went there for one reason, and that was to fuck or be fucked
<kathryn_kw> so it seems its not nearly as simple as what it may sound like on the surface
<arhiannah{R}> no....that's a very loose (bad choice of words huh?) variation of swinging....most swingers i know have "some" connection with their partners....
<mystic`celt> there is no tenderness, most roll off and go searching for the next partner
<kathryn_kw> ok so again we seem to be making a distinction again
<mystic`celt> oh, there are some who have people they meet more than once sis, am not saying there are not
<kathryn_kw> eg connection and at least a bit of a commitment.. long term friendships rather than seeries of one night stands :)
<mystic`celt> at least in bdsm, there is aftercare
<arhiannah{R}> not exactly a distinction...perhaps, our own preferences are colouring the broad range of what's acceptable to one...isn't for another?
<kathryn_kw> or should be
<kathryn_kw> but not always in my experience
<kathryn_kw> ok one of the things we touched on but may be a major factor is
<kathryn_kw> ssc
<kathryn_kw> emphasis on safe
<mystic`celt> i think that for me anyway, i need to know that the person i am with will value what i offer him
<kathryn_kw> we stress that a lot in bdsm
<kathryn_kw> but from the sounds of it
* DarkAngel^ tried ,,, but didnt find a click in swinging
<kathryn_kw> casual swining does not seem to sound very safe
<candie```> no means no in swinging as well.... no one is forced to do anything...
<kathryn_kw> eg potential diseases etc
<kathryn_kw> so is this another major difference here ?
* mystic`celt thinks casual swinging is like going out and grabbing any body off the street and spreading your legs
<kathryn_kw> brrrrrrrrrrrrrr
<mystic`celt> except that you do it in a club setting
<kathryn_kw> would rather do without imho :)
<kathryn_kw> but thats just me :)
* LeatherSmith will take a pass
<mystic`celt> so would this one, never again going to one
<candie```> has anyone here been to a CANADIAN swingers club?
<kathryn_kw> not i candie
<DarkAngel^> yes
<arhiannah{R}> as opposed to Labatt's candie?
* arhiannah{R} ducks
<DarkAngel^> lol
<Slashh> Hi all
<mystic`celt> the ones in Montreal were the same from what i heard sis
<candie```> hehe
<kathryn_kw> was curious about them but never had the experience
<candie```> Montreal is a bit different..
* candie``` goes to one every month lol
<mystic`celt> oh, how sis
<kathryn_kw> ok
<little_one^^^> yes candie!
<DarkAngel^> thought it was boring ,,, too cliquy ,, and didnt click with anyone there
<candie```> their legal system deals with them differently
<kathryn_kw> candie perhaps you can shed some light on the topic
<kathryn_kw> not many of us here have had swinging experience
<arhiannah{R}> one of these days candie...i'm going with and the strip club ;)
<candie```> but in clubs here.. they are mostly off premise.. if they are on.. then it is being run illegally
<candie```> lol arhiannah{R}
<candie```> its only as risky as you allow it to be
<candie```> if you don't like people who just jump in with anyone.. then don't hang out with them
<mystic`celt> how do you know what the people you go with are like sis
<candie```> we don't just hop into bed.. we make friendships.. get to know them.. then if it works... great
* DarkAngel^ quietly slips out to swing with his pillow
<mystic`celt> how long does that take tho sis?
<kathryn_kw> ahhh back to the connnection again
<candie```> one couple we swing with and go family camping as well
<kathryn_kw> smile
<candie```> it takes as long as you need to feel comfortable mystic`celt :)
<kathryn_kw> ok anothe point we havent touched on much
<kathryn_kw> ontario swining is primarily couples only is it not
<mystic`celt> on average tho, how long would that take?
* candie``` nods
<kathryn_kw> not for singles ?
<little_one^^^> i am a single tho kathryn_kw!
<Halifax> Good evening everyone.
<mystic`celt> i think even in the states, tended to be couples, with a few singles allowed
<candie```> mystic`celt it depends on how often you see them.. one couple took us 6 months
<mystic`celt> actually the club i went to allowed single females only
<mystic`celt> single males were not allowed
<mystic`celt> go figure
<arhiannah{R}> i think what candie is trying to say (and i KNOW she'll correct me if i'm wrong) that the group she swings with...happen to be other couples....but doesn't exclude singles
<mystic`celt> then that is not at all like what i saw sis
<candie```> single females because 90% (I'm guessing) of the women are bi
<dalian> that does not surprise
<candie```> single men are not allowed
<mystic`celt> yup, would have to agree
<BLiSs201> why arent single men allowed?
<candie```> right arhiannah{R} :)
<Opal``> hello everyone
<kathryn_kw> maybe too many hngs :?)
<mystic`celt> that i am not really sure of BLiSs201
<candie```> there are many reasons BLiSs201.. I don't agree with the concept myself.. but when asked, most couples don't welcome single men so the clubs don't allow it
<Halifax> I am sure that is true.
<BLiSs201> why dont they?
<BLiSs201> why is it ok for single women to swing but not single men?
<Halifax> Single men tend to be too much on the make I imagine.
<mystic`celt> have no idea lol
<candie```> well, for one.. you open a swingers club up to single men and you would have a million men there and only a few couples
<BLiSs201> but isnt that the point? to be on the make?
<TheWolfe> lol...everyone is on the make!
<kathryn_kw> i would suspect there could be some truth in that
<candie```> so Prive gets around that by charging single men outrageous amounts of money for admission
<kathryn_kw> hmmmmm not if you are going to get hit on all the time
<Halifax> Yah, but couples are a little more restrained about it...
<mystic`celt> i think perhaps candie``` is right
<kathryn_kw> think of a couple of the fet nights in toronto
<cliantha{Mlt}> yes...a swinging club full of wankers ewwwwwwwwy
<arhiannah{R}> lol
<kathryn_kw> same things happens with women collared or not
<kathryn_kw> they get hit on a lot
<Halifax> Wouldn't that be a wanking club?
<mystic`celt> lol
<kathryn_kw> by single doms and subs
<Opal``> sounds like PWP
<BLiSs201> i am assuming the single women go for the same reason single men would go
<BLiSs201> to find sexual partners
<candie```> and as far as bdsm goes.. imo.. if you are "lending" out your sub.. it is swinging.. more controlled but falls under the general term anyway
<little_one^^^> not always BLiSs201
<Halifax> Yah, but the aren't going to agressively hit on everything in sight...
<Opal``> no women are looking to find deep and meaningful relationships
<BLiSs201> t a swingers club opal>?
<arhiannah{R}> a swingers club?
<mystic`celt> not all women are lol
<kathryn_kw> perhaps women desire a bit more class than some guy with a hard on salvitating over them before they even know his name ?
<kathryn_kw> :)
<mystic`celt> not in a swingers club
* candie``` has met some pretty pushy women..
<arhiannah{R}> am not candie
<arhiannah{R}> ;)
<candie```> me needs to wear a sign at the swingers club sometimes "I AM NOT BI" hehehehhe
<BLiSs201> and i'm assuming thats why couples go to swingers clubs, to find sexual partners
<Halifax> LOL!
<Halifax> It isn't about WHY it is about HOW Bliss...
<BLiSs201> its about how?
<Opal``> some are even looking for partners they can enjoy dinner with before or after the sex
<BLiSs201> so married men dont hit on women at swingers clubs?
<little_one^^^> why do you go to a munch BLiSs201 its the same as going to a swingingers club!
<BLiSs201> to see my friends
<candie```> no BLiSs201.. you go to swingers clubs for the sexual tension.. when we first started.. we had no intention of swinging.. just wanted the electricty.. the dancing.. fondling.. more than you could do at a regular bar
<little_one^^^> yes someone that has the same thoughts as you!
<BLiSs201> but lilone single men are allowed to come to munches
<Halifax> Different attitude at a munch
<arhiannah{R}> i beg to differ!.....munches are NOT the same as going to a swingers club
<mystic`celt> i think tho a munch is not blatant sex
<kathryn_kw> " yet "
<kathryn_kw> pout
<BLiSs201> thats what i'm saying "blatant sex"
<arhiannah{R}> lol kath
<kathryn_kw> ducking i am :)
<candie```> they are only the same in the fact that you are going to meet other like minded people..
<mystic`celt> i mean these people walked in, and at 8pm all the clothing came off
<little_one^^^> if a single wants in bad enough their are ways they can get in!
<mystic`celt> and wham, there were people in all sorts of positions
<kathryn_kw> sounds like a nudist club
<BLiSs201> then my queston remains candie, why no single men? if they are like-minded
<Halifax> And if you are a person with some level of discretion and class you'll be welcomed.
<kathryn_kw> clothes off dont worry me :)
<arhiannah{R}> goes back to what candie club charges big $$$ for single men's admission to the club
<Opal``> but i think in swingers clubs.. you try to get to know ppl so you have some idea with who they sleep with and if they are safe... maybe they are afraid of what the single men are doing outside the club
<mystic`celt> umm, dont think nudists start fucking on the stairs
<dalian> lol
* candie``` has been to a nudist club too hehe
<kathryn_kw> good point Opal
<kathryn_kw> agreed mystic :)
<arhiannah{R}> (go figure candie ;oP)
<kathryn_kw> actuall nudist clubs are very non sexual :)
<candie```> BLiSs201.. because most couples swing with other couples or bi females... and the clubs go with the majority on that
<BLiSs201> so its discrimination based on majority?
<candie```> yes
<candie```> unfortunately
<BLiSs201> ok
<candie```> but then I wouldn't want to go to a club and see a 100 men standing around either.. it's a couples thing imo
<BLiSs201> thats an honest answer
<Justice^> pretty much Bliss - there are more whites than blacks, more gentile then jews so that kind of discrimination should be right too
<Halifax> But that's not so hard! Get a date and take her swinging!!
<candie```> that is how singles get in Halifax
<Halifax> Of course!
<candie```> the clubs have a "bring a friend" night for the people that like to bring in singles as well.. each couple may bring a single person, male or female
<little_one^^^> i have taken single male friends of mine with me to swingingers clubs
<Justice^> sounds rather condescending
<Halifax> There you go!
<kathryn_kw> how did that work out littleone ?
<Opal``> but what would happen if you brought a different male every time?
<candie```> that's ok
<kathryn_kw> brb
<little_one^^^> well if they got into trouble i would be in trouble to
<candie```> that person is the member's responsibility.. if your guest breaks the rules.. you lose your membership
<little_one^^^> but all and all they new the rules
<little_one^^^> most ppl go by the rules at least in the club
<arhiannah{R}> or risk losing their membership
<candie```> most hehe we walk the line tho hehehehe
<Halifax> Of course!
<mystic`celt> you can bring a guest, yes, but not for more than one visit at the one i was in
<little_one^^^> some timees candie
<arhiannah{R}> is there a way, if that single male discovers they quite enjoy the club...and wants to return...for them to obtain a membership as a single?
<arhiannah{R}> at a reasonable $
<candie```> depends on the club
<mystic`celt> some permit it, others dont
* candie``` nods
<mystic`celt> but is easy to bring a female friend i am sure
<candie```> every club is different with their rules of conduct
* arhiannah{R} nods
<mystic`celt> and just go seperate wasy when there
<candie```> generally a single can't get a membership.. male or female.. but there are clubs that do offer that too
* Halifax prefers the roman orgy style
<Halifax> Except of course, for the goats...
<arhiannah{R}> lol
<candie```> I don't like private orgy house parties.. ICK
* this`lil`kitten chuckles
<BLiSs201> lol
<Halifax> LOL!
<Opal``> why not candie?
<candie```> too impersonal..
<candie```> I see my friends there.. but you can't do anything with them cuz others want to butt in..
<mystic`celt> that is what i thought swinging was as well, too impersonal
<arhiannah{R}> more often then not...isn't it the atmosphere at the club you attend, that enhances what you have with hubby? (afterwards...*wink wink nudge nudge*)
<Opal``> and what about conventions?
<candie```> I've never been to one.. but I hear ecxtacy 2000 in TO last month was a good one :)
* BLiSs201 saw a lot of leather and fet wear there
<Opal``> you were there Bliss?
<candie```> Swinging is a very broad term.. just like BDSM - you set your own rules and guidelines within the lifestyle
<kathryn_kw> okay so it seems that some of us .. me included had some misconceptions of what swinging is about
<BLiSs201> not for the orgy but for the booths/business
* candie``` finds most swingers no half as open minded as they portray themselves to be..
<kathryn_kw> lol
<mystic`celt> i think just as in BDSM there are various levels of swinging
* BLiSs201 isnt open minded
<Halifax> Minds like steel traps.... rusted shut...
<kathryn_kw> lol
<mystic`celt> and you have to take just as much care there as htere
<kathryn_kw> you not open minded Bliss /
<mystic`celt> here
* kathryn_kw gets out the shovel :)
<BLiSs201> hell no kathryn
<kathryn_kw> smile
<BLiSs201> plenty of thinhs escape my understanding
<kathryn_kw> so really it sounds that swinging or bdsm is still based on connetions and potential relationships
<cudacuda19711971> i need to make some thing kinky out of jeans nikes and a shirt
<Halifax> Well...
<Halifax> You could just put the jeans and shirt in a small pile and wear only the nikes...
<arhiannah{R}> LOL
<becky{BH2}> lol
<mystic`celt> some swingers look for connection, others tho, have no wish to meet again after the encounter
<candie```> yes kathryn_kw.. but not all swingers want the friendship.. just wham bam thank you ma'am
<kathryn_kw> cucda we are having a sheduled dicussion
<cudacuda19711971> i mean by cutting them
<cudacuda19711971> how could i make them kniky
<kathryn_kw> please wait till after 10 pm
<arhiannah{R}> will you be wearing them while cutting them?? *weg*
<Halifax> Well, IMHO sex isn't worth it without some sort of connection and closeness...
<cudacuda19711971> no
<Halifax> Thats just me of course.
<mystic`celt> i agree Halifax
<candie```> there definately has to be some chemistry..
<arhiannah{R}> exactly
<kathryn_kw> sounds similar to bdsm to me Halifax
<candie```> or it doesn't work
<kathryn_kw> so we arent all that different then
<Halifax> Of course it is very similar!
<kathryn_kw> :)
<cudacuda19711971> i want to suprise my woman by getting all kinky with a fetish
<arhiannah{R}> there are similarities
<Halifax> The basis of all this is the very human need for intimacy...
<Halifax> Remove the intimacy and it's empty....
* BLiSs201 has a hard time understanding that concept halifax
<cudacuda19711971> i need to make some thing kinky out of jeans nikes and a shirt
<arhiannah{R}> touchdown! for the field goal...
<kathryn_kw> :)
<Halifax> Well - that's just me Bliss!
<kathryn_kw> well i was polite :)
<arhiannah{R}> ;)
<cliantha{Mlt}> you rock kat :)
<kathryn_kw> huggles
* candie``` could not scene with someone I didn't feel a connection with on some level... (not that I have)
<little_one^^^> lol...
* candie``` smiles
* BLiSs201 often wonders why intimacy beyond a loving relationship is needed
<kathryn_kw> ok anyone want to try to put this alltogether before the discussion comes to an end /
<Halifax> If there's no connection it's just not worth it.
<Halifax> LOL!
<kathryn_kw> many of us want intimacy in bdsm as well Bliss
<kathryn_kw> smile
<Halifax> "Swinging is good but it's hard for single guys but it has to have intimacy unless you don't care about it!"
<mystic`celt> i think that what we have found is that BDSM seems to require more commitment than swinging does
* Halifax puts it all together in a vague bundle
<Opal``> not much
<Halifax> BDSM is on the emotional edge...
<Halifax> Swinging can be much more casual...
<BLiSs201> now THAT i can understand
* candie``` thinks the discussion was more about swinging than how it can relate to bdsm
<kathryn_kw> well considering not many of us have swinging experience i think we had some good points raised and a good exchange of views
* candie``` nods
<kathryn_kw> thank you all for participating
<Dr_Eva> just in time, I see
<kathryn_kw> smile
* Halifax bows
<kathryn_kw> :)
* jen^^ closes log and will e-mail to Bernie Session Close: Sun Sep 17 22:03:29 2000