September 14, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Contracts". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Omy> Contracts: What are the benefits?
<slave_earl> anyone here have a contract?
<AndrewDom> I wonder first of all if we shouldn't talk about what a contract is
<AndrewDom> verbal? written?
<maidenEarth> assumed?
<AndrewDom> yes
<`abi> I think that it's equally valid to discuss all of them
<Omy> I would say in the lifestyle they are pretty much a written affair
<slave_earl> formal contracts are written, castlerealm has a few good examples
<AndrewDom> yes, have seen those, and tried writing one myself..but..upon thinking of that isn't there something rather artificial about that
<Omy> What makes you think that AndrewDom? I think they provide clarity.
* AndrewDom wonders if there isn't a link; a bond; a connect then any type of contract is like trying to coral a herd of wet cats
<AndrewDom> because, although some clarity does ensue, there are always ways out
<Omy> That is a sign of a good contract no? COvers exit strategies
<AndrewDom> there are always interpretations..and a smart subbie will, upon testing or teasing her Master, find them!
* AndrewDom likes clever, and intelligent subbies!
<slave_earl> the contract should be a written interpretation of what the collar means
<Sweet1`> they should reflect the nature of the relationship and be tailored to those involved
<AndrewDom> and can that be contained in a piece of paper slave_earl?
<slave_earl> in part
<AndrewDom> and that is the weakness
<slave_earl> it is an ownership paper
<AndrewDom> is it?
<Omy> I dunno if I agree with that slave_earl. To me the contract was an agreemnt on the basics of the relationship. How it worked what was expected, etc.
<slave_earl> does not cover the emotional side
<AndrewDom> isn't ownership of the mind, of the heart?
<Sweet1`> how can you own someone's mind or heart?
* AndrewDom realizes he's playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, but there are so many trite and unchallenged aspects of Contracts floating around out there, imho of course
<Omy> I think for some it gives them a starts here
* AndrewDom will be quiet now
<Omy> I dunno about trite...but I suppose there are some. However, as long as the two adukts are consenting to it, isn't that what really matters?
<MasterGuny> Funny we were speaking of these last night LOL
<maidenEarth> Theoretically I understand a contract as a starting point, an beginning understanding, where both parties wil outgrow the need for one when the relationship is established, does that work realistically?
<MasterGuny> there are different types of contracts
<MasterGuny> there are contracts from everything from a single play session to a 24/7 relationship
<MasterGuny> or a cotract for training anothers submissive
<Omy> This is true MasterGuny...single play session more likely to be a verbal arrangement no?
<slave_earl> to me, the collar is like the wedding ring the contract like the marrage license
<MasterGuny> not necessarliy
<Symmetre> I think a contract may serve a purpose in that the simple act of developing one stimulates dialogue about likes, wants and limits .... but as an enforceable item ... it just doesn't work for me. It's the great inbetween ... too formal for casual play ... too loose for anything longer term
<Omy> It could be that slave_earl...but that's really limiting its usefulness
<jen{SE}> but are not legally binding
<MasterGuny> I have a document section with about 20 different contracts for different aspects
<MasterGuny> none are legal and all recognize that
<Omy> Course not jen...but if not honored.....
* starla{TDM} has a slave contract..hanging framed onher bedroom wall
<jen{SE}> What are reprecussions if they are not honoured?
<MasterGuny> a loss of trust
<Omy> The relationship is going to suffer...maybe even disintigrate
<slave_earl> and to loose trust is to loose everything
<kashina-> i agree slave_earl
<Omy> agreed
<Symmetre> I suspect that relationship would suffer regardless if the terms were committed to paper or not
<MasterGuny> my collar contract has 15 pages and covers just about everything
<Omy> True Symmetre...but its not subjective when its down in black and white
<kashina-> just about??
<MasterGuny> including outs and limits that the sub may place in those spaces
<starla{TDM}> ok..doenst such a formal the 15 pages take away from the relationship aspect..
<kashina-> sheesh...i looked for a loophole....i hunted for just one....i couldn't find one flaw lol
<slave_earl> relationship aspect?
<starla{TDM}> my contract is pretty simple..i have the right to leave if i become unhappy..
<MasterGuny> not at all but you can reflect on it and use it as a guide as things change and direction could grow fuzzy
<MasterGuny> it can be used against me as well
<AndrewDom> so if it's a guide, is it a contract?
<kashina-> guidelines...expectations...demands...and reprocussions
<MasterGuny> it says that I will do certain things and I have to live up to that as well
<kashina-> and if You don't MasterGuny....what reprocussions are You faced with?
<Omy> Well there is viagra if your have trouble 'living up' to thingd MasterGuny
<starla{TDM}> and does this contract change? as the relationship progresses?
<MasterGuny> the loss of my slave which is the worst and at a minimum a loss of trust
<AndrewDom> minimum?????
<MasterGuny> mine has a clause about revisions written into it
<Omy> I prefer a finite time to a contract starla{TDM}...that way it can be modified.
<jen{SE}> how detailed do people make their contracts?
<starla{TDM}> good question jen{SE}! but 15 pages to me seems like a lil much
<jen{SE}> The slave will wash the dishes everyday at 12:00 and 6:00pm *lol*
<Omy> I think that varies jen{SE}...anywhere from 1 page to 15 pages it seems
<Symmetre> that's longer than my divorce settlement
<jen{SE}> if too much detail does it not trivalize (sp)
<MasterGuny> depends on the type of detail
<slave_earl> starla, it is not meant to be a romantic contract, it is a slave contract
<MasterGuny> it can be a learning experiance just reading it for a new sub
<starla{TDM}> but are we not also in this lifestlye looking for a relationship?
<MasterGuny> I know I am
<slave_earl> starla, not necessarily
<_dove> i would think it would depend on the contents of the different contracts
<MasterGuny> Im looking for a life partner
<starla{TDM}> i dunno..maybe all the years before Master i was wrong then..cause if someone presented me with a 15 page contract..well..i would turn and walk out and not look back..makes it seem so..trivial like jen{SE} said
<jen{SE}> and what does it do to sponteneity,
<MasterGuny> have to read the document before making that desision starla{TDM}
<MasterGuny> nothing
<`abi> depends jen ... you could put 'must be spontaneous' into the contract ;)
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<AndrewDom> can you legislate that abi?
<AndrewDom> seems like that's a trait of the Dom/Domme/sub/relationship
<Omy> persoanlly, I think a contract is good for clearly defining the outside boundaries. Then the 2 consenting adults build inside that box
<slave_earl> Omy, good point
<MasterGuny> I was amazed and the amount of documentation there is on contracts out there if you look for it
<jen{SE}> yes, but most comes from teh on-line world MasterGuny
<jen{SE}> and on-line and real time two very different lifestyles....
<slave_earl> for some
<kashina-> thats where 'editing' comes in ;)
<jen{SE}> i don't disagree with contracts, but i do believe they need to be in context, reality based and also relevant to the personalitie involved
<MasterGuny> I never read it like that though there were long distance and cyber contracts as well
<jen{SE}> geesh, i can't type or spell tonight
* starla{TDM} nods in agreement
<_dove> A lot of the contracts online have nothing to do with cyber or long distance relationships
<MasterGuny> found most of mine at fetish society under links
<Omy> The contract can be as long as the 2 adults want it. A short contract doesn't work any better then a long contract. Its about communication, respect, and commitment
<starla{TDM}> and trust a contract doesnt guranatee that the Dom wont cross the line..only trust gurantees that..
<Omy> That is a two way street starla{TDM}
<jen{SE}> Okay devils advocate, how many ppl do we all know who have had contracts but when things got uncomfortable did not live up to the contract, eg 1 year of service becomes 2 months
<AndrewDom> that's the nub as far as I'm concerned..respect, honor, committment, trust, communication, ...
<Sweet1`> the contract is invariably the first thing thrown out the window
<_dove> jen, my opinion only, but that would mean to me that the contract wasn't right?
<slave_earl> Omy, it is not exactly a two way street, the playing field is not anything like level
<AndrewDom> I disagree a lot slave_earl
<Omy> No slave_earl...but trust is a 2 way street.
<MasterGuny> my contract is suybject to negotiation up until it is signed and it is the last step I have before a collar
<slave_earl> Omy, trust may be a two way street but the repricutions are totally different
<_dove> It is most definitely a two-way street slave_earl
<starla{TDM}> ok can we start this again..maybe i lost something here..for the only contract i ever had is with TDM as previously what is a contract suppose to do? what does it say? and what is it suppose to way of thinking is..if i need to sign all this stuff saying i will do this and this and not this..and same for Him..then sheesh why get involved
<jen{SE}> nods, nods
<Omy> Work tasks are not part of my contracts starla{TDM}
<jen{SE}> does a contract give a sense of security to the submissive?
<Omy> Are they slave_earl? If the trust is broken, so is the relationship. Seems to be the same reprocussions to me
<starla{TDM}> or a sense of Dominance to the Dom?
<Omy> To some it does my last girl is was her security blanket
<jen{SE}> i was just going to say or a heightened sense of control to the Dominant
<_dove> or a recognition of the Dom's control by the sub
<Sweet1`> why does one need a security blanket in a relationship that is consenting and desired?
<slave_earl> Omy, if the dominant proves untrustworthy while having a submissive in bondage, the consequences can be deadly, the opposite is not likely
<MasterGuny> for one slave I had she beat me over the head with my contract as I think she had a photographic memory LOL
<krista-F> lol
<jen{SE}> so in that case MasterGuny is not the submissive using the contract to control You?? just kidding don't hit me
<_dove> lol
<Omy> Shouldn't the slave have figured that out before getting into a contract?
<starla{TDM}> no jen{SE} good step over the line and are no longer in control
<MasterGuny> not making me aware of were my boundaries were and responsabilities she would of made a great lawyer
<silken^flame> ok folks ,, can anyone tell me the need for a contract?
<MasterGuny> there is no need there is a desire
<jen{SE}> hmm, maybe here in lies the difference, i hear much about my contract with this one and my contract with that one, for some of us this is a life long partnership, so why a contract that will change with each passing year as we change together
<silken^flame> ok Guny ,, why the desire?
<MasterGuny> boundaries resposabilities expectations and punishment
<slave_earl> jen, for others itis for as long as the dominant desires
<`abi> perhaps as a tool in reviewing and assessing and thinking about where you are and where you want to be jen?
<silken^flame> and you have to have that in writting in a contract that is not even legal in a court of law?>
<MasterGuny> (kashina-) guidelines...expectations...demands...and reprocussions
<MasterGuny> she said it better LOL
* kashina- laughs
<silken^flame> you can't just talk about it?
<jen{SE}> possibibly abi, but i still just talking together handles that pretty well
<jen{SE}> but that is for me
<`abi> it does for some people jen, but some people like and/or desire a more concrete tool
<MasterGuny> its nice to see it better in black and white remember you only retain 10% of what you here
<starla{TDM}> see i think we are looking at this from two being..casual play as long as the dominat wants it..and one being long term marriage..friendship laughter and BDSM..
<MasterGuny> hear
<slave_earl> there is something about giving yourself to another in writing that nothing else can quite be the same
<jen{SE}> hmm, SE does have unique ways of making my memory a little better than that, not to mention the inherient desire to make Him happy
<naughtyvickie> if a contract is only verbal, and life being as hectic as it can be some of what was discussed could be forgotten, so isn't it a good idea to have a written one so that you have a reference to look at
<kashina-> same reason people get married slave_earl? marriage.....collaring......Marriage certificate...slave contract.
<slave_earl> it does serve to make it more real
<slave_earl> or feel more real at least
<jen{SE}> make what feel more real??
<Sweet1`> so for some it is the tangible to the abstract emotions?
<slave_earl> that one is actually owned by another
<Sweet1`> why doesn't the collar do that?
<slave_earl> it just adds another level
<`abi> It can Sweet1` ... or the contract can be a written expression of the expectations of the collar
* _dove agrees with abi
<slave_earl> the collar can be a constant reminder that one is by written contract owned, the slave of another
<kashina-> or the expectation of the commitment that is being agreed to
<jen{SE}> everyone has their own comfort zone
<slave_earl> a slaves comfort zone becomes defined bytheir owner
<MasterGuny> and its comforting to sit down and be able to read it see it grasp it
<`abi> I don't really think you can define someone else's comfort zone earl
<_dove> i disagree slave_earl
<slave_earl> it happens very naturally when one surrenders entirely
<kashina-> does a written contract not make both parties sit down, discuss, co-operate and compromise between one another exactly what it is each one expects out of the relationship they are entering into together
<TDM> a contract can dictate what is expected but not what one can be comfortable with
<slave_earl> and it is a very good place to be
* _dove agrees with TDM
<jen{SE}> and i do enjoy being uncomfortable sometimes
<slave_earl> that too jen
<Sweet1`> so in other words, the contract is simply informed consent for the relationship
<starla{TDM}> t o me a written contrat makes it so formal..i like impish i like humor i like being able to do something and not have to this in my contract..maybe that is where i have an issue
<TDM> and I find that often one thinks they can deal with something till it comes time to actually do it
<Omy> That I have seen several times TDM
<TDM> kashina-, it depends on how the contract is written to an extent I think
<TDM> I talked with starla a lot before we did anything formal
<kashina-> but is it not up to both to alter it to suit their particular relationship?
<Johncin> this contract thing is way to serious, life is meant to be lived to it's fullest
<jen{SE}> someone once wrote and i don't remember verbatim, the thinking slaves loses the opportunity of pure submission, by the time she thinks, how i am going to do something, how will it make Master feel, etcc. etcc. the experience of the moment is gone
<starla{TDM}> exactely Johncin!!!
<Omy> Life is serious and fun at times Johncin
<kashina-> a contract never stopped me from being devilish lol!
<AndrewDom> good for you kashina-!!!!
<AndrewDom> now put that into a contract!!!
<MasterGuny> it can be a part of this lifestyle same as a collaring cerimony for others..this lifestyle is what we make of it as individuals
<TDM> I did consider her thoughts before making a contract but she had no say in what was put in it
<kashina-> she had a say on whether she signed or agreed to it or not...true?
* starla{TDM} tugs on Your beard..all it says Master is You own me...grins
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<TDM> Contracts aint for everyone, but some of us are very serious people
<TDM> yes I own you starla LOL
<slave_earl> starla, what more would you expect a contract to say?
<AndrewDom> not me, I've said my piece I think...
<starla{TDM}> i dunno 15 pages of to say more then that LOL
<Omy> 1Laughing 140ut 1Loud starla{TDM}
<krista-F> it was in the small print starla{TDM}
<TDM> We have a very short simple contract
<kashina-> expectations to act in public...what is taboo....basically a guideline for not pissing Him off
* kashina- giggles
<starla{TDM}> but kashina- as subs or slaves..dont we already know what to do and not to do..and isnt that where training comes in?
<TDM> it basically states that I own starla, and in return I am responsible for her
* Johncin dosen't believe a man and a woman need any kind of contract, only love for each other
<slave_earl> that You will take care of her
<slave_earl> that You will think of her welfare
<Sweet1`> isn't that a given?
<TDM> agrees with Johncin, but its just something some of us like to have to add to our commitment
<slave_earl> that you will allow no harm to come to her
<maidenEarth> I think that communication is the key in any relationship, to make it work, and a contract seems to be a good tool as part of communication
<starla{TDM}> but that is implied in our contract and i think in any relationship..even vanilla..that you will each have responsibilities..a contract doesnt need to state that
<maidenEarth> avoids misunderstandings perhaps.
<TDM> a collar is not really needed either but many of us like our slaves in a collar
<kashina-> a contract is an agreement between parties ... verbally or put it down on paper is more or less just a reference of what has been agreed to and a commitment to live up to that
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<maidenEarth> How many vanilla realtionships would benefit from people sitting down and writing out what they expect from each other?