September 12 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, by my watch it's time for the discussion.  Tonight's topic is "The Nice Guy vs The Nasty Dom -- Finding the Balance".
<aelan> I've never read any
<aelan> night all
<BernieRoehl> Please try to avoid "hi" and "bye" messages between now and 10 pm.  Also remember that the chat is being logged, and will be posted to our website.
<BernieRoehl> If you want to say something but still remain anonymous, just change your nick.
<BernieRoehl> The person who suggested the topic had a specific question in mind...
<BernieRoehl> They were wondering how to reconcile the fact that they're normally a sensitive, caring and gentle individual,
<BernieRoehl> with the fact that in scene they were strict, demanding and very Dominant.
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone have any initial thoughts?
<`abi> the concept of gentleness expressed through sadism is a complex one
<BernieRoehl> It is indeed, abi.
<Opal``> i'll say
* BernieRoehl wonders if we're on the verge of another netsplit
<BernieRoehl> Is it possible to be both at the same time?
* vixen{KO} enters and holds on tightly....
* katiias throws the rope to vixen{KO}
<BernieRoehl> Everyone hold hands...  :-)
<kashina-> damn
<katiias> oops didna werk Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Should we wait, or keep going?
<katiias> mmm
* vixen{KO} thinks that "nice" and "nasty" have oh, so many different connotations each...
<katiias> mebbe topic is givin dalnet the shakes
* vixen{KO} ties the rope around her waist and blurbs on anyway...
<BernieRoehl> True, vixen.  Saying "he's such a nice guy" is very different from saying (in a different context) "mmm... that's nice!"
* jalyn agrees
<vixen{KO}> and what is nice for one sis or bro may not be to others.
<BernieRoehl> So (for the sake of discussion) let's take "nice" as meaning "sensitive, caring, nurturing" and "nasty" as being a very good quality in a Dom (or Domme).
<katiias> sounds like the perfect combo
<BernieRoehl> I see the net split has healed itself.  Welcome to those who just re-joined us.  You didn't miss too much... we're just trying to be clear about what "nice" and "nasty" mean.
* katiias smiles
<`abi> yes, I think it's possible....if the Dom/me is connected and in-tune with the submissive, then s/he is expressing the gentleness that s/he a way that lets the submissive feel it in a way that is meaningful to them...if I didn't trust in the innate gentleness of the Dom, I would be very reluctant to let him cause me pain 
<vixen{KO}> agreed abi
<BernieRoehl> It's a good combo, katiias, but (speaking as a Dom myself) I find that finding that balance isn't always easy or obvious.
<katiias> and why is that, Bernie?
<vixen{KO}> does that fine line a Dom/me walks between the two not waver constantly?
<BernieRoehl> Well, most people who know me from my vanilla life are astonished when they find out I'm a Dom.  (I hide it well... *smile*)
<BernieRoehl> Knowing just how nasty to get (particularly with new submissives) has always been a challenge.
<jalyn> I would think that particular balance hard to stay within
<jalyn> for a Dom that is
* vixen{KO} thinks that flexibility is a high priority in being a Dom/me...
* BernieRoehl nods
<katiias> prolly there's no need for the *Dom* to come out in your everyday thats where the nice sensitive caring side comes out, eh?
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps... though in my day-to-day life, my Dom side does occasionally come out.  It's proven useful from time to time as well.  :-)
* katiias chuckles...knowing how Domme-like she is at werk.... to get ANYTHING accomplished!
<kashina-> i think that as long as all 'play' is reinforced with genuine affection then it should not be difficult to assure a sub that he is genuine in his attention and care of her
<katiias> yet in reality..this one
* BernieRoehl nods
<katiias> s nature is submissive
<katiias> dang...enter key got away from me
<jalyn> well said kashina
* vixen{KO} thinks that everyone....Dominant, submissive and hell, even plain ole vanilla types all have to balance between just the right amount of "nice" & "nasty"
<kashina-> true vixen
* BernieRoehl agrees with vixen, but wonders if Doms (and Dommes) have a bit more of a balancing act to accomplish because of the more extreme range they cover between "nice" and "nasty"
* vixen{KO} also thinks that those of us in the lifestyle are just more intune to those varying in many other aspects of the lifestyle...
<jalyn> but in retrospect do we actually succeed in that balance?
<abigaille> they also must combine them....moving seamlessly from one to the other....that's fairly unique to Dom/mes
<vixen{KO}> yes,'re right....the Dom/mes carry the balancing pole and the submissive's hope they'll be under it when it lands...LOL
* BernieRoehl laughs
<BernieRoehl> Well put, vixen.  :-)
<chaosbitch> brb
<kashina-> the D/s relationship demands more of the's intense validation of control over physical, emotional and mental well being demands it
<BernieRoehl> Can you expand on that, jalyn?
<vixen{KO}> being the Dominant and having to find that balance is like being the first car on a rollercoaster...being submissive is riding in a car back there and following the flow and adapting to it.
<jalyn> if we take into account our past usage of balancing between nice and nasty....when we sit back and think about many of us later decide that perhaps more would have been better...or less...and on that vein did we actually succeed in that balance?
<BernieRoehl> Good question, jalyn.  I know some Doms who are very self-critical, and always wonder if they should have been more extreme, or whether they went too far.
<BernieRoehl> (Mostly new Doms)
<abigaille> I think it would depend on whether it was appropriate at the time everything about BDSM, limits doesn't mean the old ones were wrong at the time
<jalyn> not at all...but therefore we then change ot adapt in order to learn from past experience...hence Bernie's comment about new Doms
<vixen{KO}> true jalyn....because our natures in the lifestyle is that of vast extremes, it is only natural that validation is also highly questioned and yet highly variable dependant on time and place.
* BernieRoehl scrolls back, and notices that so far most of the input has come from the subs
<abigaille> that's because we're less gentle Bernie :)
* BernieRoehl laughs
<Wolfe^en> trying to decide whether to be "nice or nasty" *smile*
* vixen{KO} whispers her Master's apologies for His absense in the discussion tonite....KO's worn out *wink*
<BernieRoehl> Can any of the Doms provide some insight?  I don't mind talking about myself (and in fact can do it endlessly, on request) but would prefer not to.  :-)
* BernieRoehl smiles at Wolfe^en's comment
* abigaille wonders whether any of the Doms present ever feel pressured by submisives to be "nastier" than they are comfortable being
<Wolfe^en> not really sure where this discussion is mentioned. everyone must do a balancing act betwenn the two & in between
<trufriend> i'm sorry, what is the discussion tonight?
<Wolfe^en> no abigaille
<BernieRoehl> Nice guy vs Nasty Dom -- finding the balance.
<vixen{KO}> mean like having Their limits pushed too, abi?
<Wolfe^en> one doesn't need to donate equal time to both
<trufriend> Nasty in play or downright bad?
<BernieRoehl> I've occasionally had submissives say that they could have taken more, but that's usually when I'm just starting to play with them and haven't explored their limits yet.
* Swede_ is not pressured into being nastier
<Swede_> usually i gotta be nicer..hahaha
<BernieRoehl> It's also good (in my opinion) to err on the side of caution.  I also believe in the old show-biz adage, "always leave them wanting more".  :-)
<trufriend> nasty vs. stern
<Wolfe^en> submissives should be left wanting more, but that's another topic
<^cylen> *s*
* BernieRoehl smiles
<abigaille> why do you think that is TW? it because you have a wide nasty comfort zone or some other reason?
* vixen{KO} thinks Bernie's line "always leave them wanting more" makes it sound like a 3 ring circus...
<Wolfe^en> I encourage input..if that is where she would like to go, I take it as a "greengreengreen"
<abigaille> yes, vixen....I'm presuming that the higher nasty comfort level doesn't always reside with the Dom/me
* BernieRoehl pictures Himself with submissives on small round platforms, while He wears a ringmaster's top hat and swings a long singletail
<Wolfe^en> perhaps one requires a sadistic side to go there...I'm quite comfortable with that
<vixen{KO}> besides....we, as submissives, always want more....but it also varies between wanting more "nice" as well as wanting more "nasty"
* BernieRoehl nods
* jalyn agrees
<BernieRoehl> Like TheWolfe, I am (generally) willing to be as "nasty" as a submissive wants.  I will even encourage her to use "green" to give me the feedback that she's ready to be taken that far.
<abigaille> have you ever reached your nasty limit before her Bernie?
* vixen{KO} thinks E/everyone needs to be reminded that none of U/us are clairvoyant (at least nobody's stepped forward and admitted it) even tho Master says i should be...
<BernieRoehl> Not in an overall sense, abi.  There are some specific activities that squick me, but not because of their intensity.
* BernieRoehl agrees with vixen
<abigaille> what about the intensity of that ever "too much"?
<BernieRoehl> I personally like *lots* of feedback, both verbal and physical.  Not just because it gives me a rush (which it does!) but also because it lets me know I'm not taking the person beyond their limits.
<BernieRoehl> Can you expand on what you mean by "intensity of gentleness", abi?
<abigaille> I can try :) ...  
* BernieRoehl smiles
<abigaille> we've been talking about "using" nastiness to take a submissive somewhere...I'm wondering about using gentleness to manipulate the experience in a similar way
<BernieRoehl> Interesting.  Go on...
<Wolfe^en> could be used in ageplay or ramping up or down or a way of prolonging things
<abigaille> example....if I am "steeled" to take nasty and a Dom turns it around on me with something really gentle....I'm suddenly somewhere that I didn't expect to be
<vixen{KO}> true Wolfe^en....or even just to throw a good mind-fuck into the workz of things, too.
<Wolfe^en> that could be interpreted as nasty abi
<BernieRoehl> Yes, keeping the submissive a bit off-balance is always fun.  ;_0
<BernieRoehl> :-)
<abigaille> lol..I suppose it could TW
<vixen{KO}> you mean we come balanced?
* BernieRoehl laughs
<abigaille> in Picassoian sort of way vixen
* BernieRoehl chuckles
* vixen{KO} nods
<vixen{KO}> and here i was blaming it on the mirror.
<BernieRoehl> One thing I've tried from time to time is ramping up the intensity (of a flogging, for example) while saying very comforting words... (very gently) "you can take a little more, can't you?  For me?"  :-)
<BernieRoehl> And yet... that in itself is (as TheWolfe points out) rather nasty.   :-)
* jalyn nods and agrees :)
<Wolfe^en> one can also be "nice" & bring someone to tears
<abigaille> It's a good example of gentle sadism Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Exactly, abi.  :-)
<Wolfe^en> nothing like a quiet lecture to set the tone
* BernieRoehl nods
<^cylen> hell i can cry with a bloody look...never mind a nice talk...
<abigaille> ...or equally TW, of seeing a Dom/me gentle enough to be visibly moved by what they've achieved  
<vixen{KO}> agreed's all different levels of control.
* Wolfe^en looks at `cylen
<BernieRoehl> So... one way of striking the balance is to use one within the other -- gentle sadism, being nasty through niceness.
* ^cylen sniffles
<abigaille> and vice-versa Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Yes, exactly abi.
* BernieRoehl gives cylen a little hug
<BernieRoehl> And people have also mentioned ramping, and the importance of feedback.
<BernieRoehl> However, there's also the question of making the transition from day-to-day "nice guy" to in-scene "nasty Dom".
<Wolfe^en> assuming that is a leap
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone here have any thoughts on that transition?  Or whether it should even *be* a transition as such?
* BernieRoehl glances around at the other Doms in the room :-)
<vixen{KO}> some people have to go from nasty to nice guy/gal just to get their head into the lifestyle when is, after all a very caring lifestyle...far more intune with a partner than most vanilla type relationships
<Wolfe^en> no transition really, it is not a role..I'm not playing anyone but Me
<Blksmith> I would like to know where it is written that a Dom is or needs to be "nasty". 
<Wolfe^en> it isn't Blksmith
<BernieRoehl> And yet... in our daily lives, don't we need to curb our natural Dominant tendencies?  And if so, aren't we playing a role when we're at the office (or whereever)?
<abigaille> Do you think that is an unrealistic portrayal of Dom/mes Blksmith?
<Blksmith> Which abigaille?
<abigaille> that a Dom is or needs to be nasty Blksmith
<abigaille> I mean...the image of a guy in leather wielding a flogger isn't exactly the stuff that a Kodak commercial is made from
<BernieRoehl> It's an interesting question.... does a Dom need to be nasty?  Or are we making some big assumptions about what our submissives want?
<Blksmith> If you are a Do for the pyupose of being "nasty" you are doing more harm to the "lifestyle: than good. Dom's should be in a frame of mind to ensrue that both sides DOM and sub get everything out of the experince posible
<Wolfe^en> we are making an assumption if we think all subs want the same thing
<Blksmith> being nastry for nastry sake is wrong
<abigaille> the article this month in Psychology Today makes a point of drawing a distinction between sexual sadists and Dominants
<BernieRoehl> I think we can all agree with Blksmith on that.  But do submissives want their Doms to have a "nasty" streak to them?
* vixen{KO} claps for Blksmith....
<vixen{KO}> true....this isn't Old Gaurd anymore
<BernieRoehl> (I'm just reading the article now, abi... it looks very good)
<Wolfe^en> <Wolfe^en> we are making an assumption if we think all subs want the same thing
<vixen{KO}> hmmmm  perhaps it could be scanned and posted to the list?  or would someone pass it on please?
<abigaille> it raises some interesting points Bernie, but it doesn't really explore them in much depth...worth the read though
<vixen{KO}> exactly Wolfe^en...N/none of us can make any assumptions in this in general life...W/we all must make the most of what is here and now.
<jalyn> perhaps nasty in respect to pushing limits but not nasty where the Dom is taking me places without concern for my well being
<BernieRoehl> Actually, it was posted to the list late last week, vixen.  If you missed it, I'll email it to you.
<abigaille> kind of nasty with a :) beside it jalyn?
<vixen{KO}> thank you, Sir
<BernieRoehl> That's an interesting (and somewhat delicate) line, jalyn.
* jalyn read it and thought it very thought provoking
<jalyn> yes abi....lots of :)'s
<Blksmith> back to Bernie's point about dominant tendencies in evreyday life. Dominance in everyday life is confidence and a good tool. Dominace when met by submisiveness in a controlled scene is part of a role we choose to play. real life and the roles we play as Dom/sub overlap but should be seperate to asllow us to live our lives with out causeing anyone that does not understand or participate any discomfort
<shimmer``> hi folks :)
<abigaille> in other words Blksmith...don't be nasty to anyone who doesn't want you to be :)
<Stephen_R> hiya shimmer
<Blksmith> exactly and don't assume a dominant role just beacuse you think you can dominance  just as with respect must be earned!
<BernieRoehl> Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.  :-)
<Wolfe^en> way BernieRoehl
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Blksmith> Do unto others as they allow you to do to them
<Wolfe^en> *smile* good one Blksmith
<shimmer``> very libertarian thought :)
<BernieRoehl> That might be a good note to end it on.  :-)
<vixen{KO}> Do unto others as negotiated...
<kashina-> ooooooooooo i like that vix  ;)
<BernieRoehl> It's 10 pm, and we're going to wrap up the formal part of our discussion.
<BernieRoehl> Please feel free to keep chatting.
* abigaille waves goodbye
<BernieRoehl> Thanks to everyone who participated!
<kashina-> thank You for tonight Bernie  :)
<jalyn> thanks Bernie!
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure!
<kashina-> heya lil  :)
<vixen{KO}> thank you Bernie....interesting topic