September 12 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

September 12, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

<ModBot> This message is generated by Moderator Bot, ModBot for short. I've set an automatic message that reads as follows...
<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Overcoming the Stigma of 'Masochism'". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Jaysker{princess}> i did
<BernieRoehl> Good, then the message went out okay
* Jaysker{princess} ducks
<DarkAngel^{a}> DA and aurelle here
<BernieRoehl> Hi, DA!
<BernieRoehl> So... the stigma of masochism
<krista-F> i have always had a problem accepting that name for myself
<BernieRoehl> I've found that it's been very easy to "come out" as being involved in the scene as a Dom, and I know Dommes who have also found it quite easy (not all, but many)
<BernieRoehl> However, submissives have a harder time -- people worry about their mental health
<BernieRoehl> So the question is... how do we address that stigma?
<krista-F> i got over it when i was nominated as Masochist of the Year here...lol
* BernieRoehl smiles @ krista-F
<krista-F> flattery will work every time *g*
* jen{SE} never had a problem with it
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<DarkAngel^{a}> LOL ,,, aurelle says she will give you a run for your money krista-F
<krista-F> no..seriously it took a long time for me to accept that about myself
<kneels> i hear you BernieRoehl..that their is the stigma that others will be concerned that they are somehow seeking an abusive relationship..but I am not sure what can be done to combat the stigma
<krista-F> i was nominated DA ..i didn't win
<DarkAngel^{a}> LOL
<kneels> if one is strong enough with who they are...do they really worry about those that do not understand it?
<krista-F> lost out to a guy suspended by 16 fish hooks thru his body
<DarkAngel^{a}> aurelle)) jen, did you win?
<DarkAngel^{a}> aurelle)) im not that advanced
<krista-F> it was never about what others thought of me...it was more what i thought of me
<jen{SE}> *lol*, does not compete, not in the running
<BernieRoehl> Some of it is just making the public more aware of what submission is (and isn't), but on a one-to-one basis, how do submissives reassure the people in their lives that everything is okay?
<dana^^> its troublesome though kneels...
<DarkAngel^{a}> still working on that one Sir
<jen{SE}> Bernie Sir, are we not mixing two different things, submission and maschochism, not the same in my book
<krista-F> jen...i didn't even know there was a competition..it was for my scenes over the previous year kind of thing..i just do waht i do.
<krista-F> no they are not....but a submissive can be a masochist as well
<BernieRoehl> Good point, jen
<BernieRoehl> And the difference in this case is quite significant
<maidenEarth> A dominant can be masochistic as well.
<BernieRoehl> However, I think there's a stigma associated with each of them
<kneels> true jen{SE}....yet i think BernieRoehl is lumping them together in that they both can be seen as "abusive" to an outsider..you missed the question prior to coming in i think
<jen{SE}> kneels, i miss many things, that would not be the first *smiles*
* BernieRoehl smiels
<BernieRoehl> (smiles, rather)
<kneels> oh i am afraid you will have to get in line behind me for that fault jen
<maidenEarth> smiels shmozzle
<kneels> it is an oddity that i AM in the loop
<BernieRoehl> So, has anyone here had any experiences (good or bad) with dealing with the stigma of being submissive or masochistic?
<jen{SE}> i tend to keep it pretty private Sir, so for the most part no i have had no good or bad experiences
<maidenEarth> Well, I have had the Dominant part of me dismissed because I like to be beaten.
<maidenEarth> "if you like pain then you are a sub"
<kneels> well that has mostly been the case with me jen...add to it that i outside of bdsm independent and outgoing..and i cannot say that anyone has ever worried about me that way
<jen{SE}> i recently read a link someone sent that i found quite interesting.. the difference between a painslut and a mascochist
<kneels> now..try explaining to a man you would like to date that you are a submissive masochist ...and..fawk
<BernieRoehl> Interesting, mE -- clearly not everyone in the community understands switching
<jen{SE}> a pain slut takes the pain and turns it into something pleasurable.. a mascochist takes the pain for the sake of the need for the pain
* jen{SE} not verbatim, have a terrible memory
* twice|afk sits back and just reads
<jen{SE}> *lol* @ kneels, probably better than dating him and telling him you want to beat him *eg*
<twiceshy> lol jen{SE}
<maidenEarth> BernieRoehl, this of course was not anyone in my circle, but casual chat, so i don't know how pervasive the idea is.
<kneels> ahhh..very true jen{SE}
<maidenEarth> jen{SE}, wait a sec... its hard to tell a guy you want to beat him? Since when?
<jen{SE}> i am not sure either maidenEarth but the opposite side is similar, most submissives will not pick up a toy to top, they feel because they are submissive they can't do that..
<jen{SE}> i do not have a Dominant bone in my body (with the exception of SE's) but i have a blast whacking the heck out of someone, just for the fun of it, the play..
<maidenEarth> Yes I know that jen{SE}
* BernieRoehl nods @ mE
* BernieRoehl smiles at jen's aside
<jen{SE}> *lol*, maidenEarth was referring to a Vanilla date
<maidenEarth> ahh, what a waste of time
* twiceshy likes to ask nilla men to beat her * in a joking manner * just fo rthe SHock value
<BernieRoehl> And how do they react, twiceshy?
<twiceshy> some ask lots of questions and are curious some back away slowly
<kneels> if they are really interested in you as a person..they try to understand
* twiceshy chuckles at the ones that back away slowly
<twiceshy> i agree kneels
<jen{SE}> i have found most are titilated at the slap and tickle, but put them face to face with a masochist and i suspect the shock value would increase
<BernieRoehl> True
<krista-F> agreed
<twiceshy> me i dont hide who i am some one asks what i like or what im looking for i tell them be it Nilla or BDSM
<krista-F> ive had them not back away slowly....but RUN!!
<BernieRoehl> Of course, every now and then I'm sure you'll find one who's a budding Dom
<twiceshy> lol krista-F
<Kilted_One> does that mean they have thorns??
<jewel`{F}> for myself, i have never really noticed a stigma as far as being a masochist goes, i think most nillas tend to feel protective of a masochist where as they fear the sadist, and feel they are the really sick ones
<twiceshy> *perks * Thorns
<maidenEarth> I have seen opposite though, a submissive who is not into any pain at all, and my preference when topping is someone who enjoys strong sensations and upping the limit, so I prefer a masochist.
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, if you think masochists are not scary read a book called Venus in Furs
* BernieRoehl smiles
<Kilted_One> and that was written almost a 100 years ago
<jen{SE}> yeppers KO Sir it was
<jewel`{F}> i am sure if they got to know what a masochist really can be, the slightest mention of it at all and the mental health facilities would be overflowing
<jen{SE}> a maschochist much like a sadist, will stop at not much to get the need met, but then i am referring to the outside the SSC lifestyle S & m
<BernieRoehl> So why do people make that assumption? (That being a masochist is a form of mental illness)
<jen{SE}> cause we are crazy Sir???
<`vixie> because it is seen as the opposite of societal norm
* jen{SE} just kiddign *grins*
<tvsubbie4> fear of the unknown, Bernie
* BernieRoehl smiles @ jen
<`vixie> someone who craves pain must therefore not be normal
<krista-F> because until recently it was on the official list of mental disorders
* BernieRoehl agrees with vixie that that's certainly part of it
<twiceshy> because its a Taboo in the Nilla world ** not the norm*
<maidenEarth> I think as a group we are, as in the sw ontario community, very open and non judgemental. That there are not too many examples of people experiencing discrimination because of their masochism is proof.
<tvsubbie4> "mundanes" havent experienced any of what we have, and the knee jerk reaction is to be afraid
<jen{SE}> we are normal to us, we are not normal to most of the outside world, they cannot wrap their head around what we do
<`abi> Jack McGeorge makes an interesting point. He asserts that we waste too much effort trying to convince people that we are normal...when in fact, we arent
<maidenEarth> When you get into the wider public however, they are simply craving more and more things to dissaprove of.
<dana^^> or maybe they just arent wired as we are...?
<`abi> we are not normal ... but neither are monks and neither marathon runners
<jen{SE}> *smiles* at abi, i remember Him saying that as well as saying, that a certain type of monk, they determine the degree of mental aberration, not that it doesn't exist, but the degree of it...
<spirited_sassy{CP}> I couldnt agree with you more abi
<maidenEarth> Fundamentalist Christians aren't normal either. Nor are hard core Star Trek fans, or ...
<spankablecyn> lol
* twiceshy doesnt care what is suppose to be normal or Not normal ...i am who i am i like what i like ** Beat me make me squirm* if that make some one else squirm oh well
<`vixie> there are many things that are not 'normal' as well maidenEarth
<`abi> yes, jen .. and whether the degree of dysfunction makes them functional within the framework of our (BDSM) culture
<maidenEarth> well, its just an illustration that normal is described by the company you keep.
<dana^^> smiles with twice...
* twiceshy smiles
* maidenEarth leaves the discussion reluctantly
<twiceshy> i try not to waste good energy on what Other ppl think of me ** mores so when its negative * i tend to look forward at growing being me true to who i am ** and thats not always a easy road in its self some times*
<jen{SE}> i have found over time, i socialize less and less in a vanilla framework and keep mostly to others within the lifestyle
<jen{SE}> the vanilla friends have gone by the wayside and the lifestyle friends have taken their place
<twiceshy> i hear ya there jen{SE}
<krista-F> that has been the case with me as well to a great degree
<spankablecyn> for me there is a difference between erotic pain and chronic pain or any unwanted pain, some people just don't understand that there is difference. I try to explain it is like the difference between rape and sex
<twiceshy> spankablecyn i understand you there
<krista-F> i just find i have to censor too much of myself with vanilla people.can't say what i did on the weekend....etc.
<twiceshy> there is a BIG diff
<dana^^> i do think there is a stigma around being a masochist... its hard trying to explain why you crave pain.. whether its sensual or simply stress relief...
<jen{SE}> yet the funny part about that is most dinner parties we have are not far off from vanilla ones *lol* we seldom make it downstairs to play, we eat, we drink, we laugh
<`vixie> how do you explain to someone else the type/duration/style of pain you are looking for?
<jen{SE}> i think that develops over time and knowing each other vixie
<spankablecyn> vixie the same way you talk about what turns you on?
* `vixie is just throwing the question out ;)
<dana^^> depends on who youre talking with... the type of relationship
<jen{SE}> *Lol*, harder, longer, deeper.. WHACK!!!!
<`abi> well, vixie .... "hit me as hard as you can, for as long as you can, with as much elegance as possible" generally works ;)
<`vixie> lol `abi, i like that one
<dana^^> lol
<twiceshy> i find when i play with the same ppl they learn what i like how far they can push me when im walking the edge and how long to keep me there
* twiceshy then when it all stops i pout for more
<twiceshy> lol
<`vixie> i found that too, many a moon ago ;)
<dana^^> lol
<spankablecyn> I think they learn as well by your reaction *grin*
<`abi> I'm kidding of course vixie ... it's not that simple ... it's generally more effective to talk about results than actions
<`abi> and more effective to dispel the masoch myth that way too
<spankablecyn> I see different levels of masochism all the time, so I describe myself as mid range
<`vixie> ah, spankablecyn, that brings forth an interesting question.....do levels of masochism change over life?
<spankablecyn> Yes, we get bored
<spankablecyn> lol
<`vixie> how does boredom change your pain level?
<spankablecyn> I just crave more
<`abi> you can take more when you fall asleep
<spankablecyn> If you float off to sub space you have no idea of how much time has passed
<twiceshy> lol and i am working on NOT giggglin when someone is beating me
<dana^^> but thats the fun part twice... lol
<twiceshy> lol dana^^
* twiceshy laffs harder when the Dom goes " You think its funny do ya "
<spankablecyn> The one thing I don't like is to be hit on the same spot over and over and over, drives me nuts
<dana^^> lol
<dana^^> doesnt like that either... lol
<krista-F> pisses me off
<spankablecyn> My ass is big enough target to find another spot *grin*
<twiceshy> <-- asks to be hit the same spot a few times .. i like the burn to last but not real fond of the sting before hand
<twiceshy> lol spankablecyn
<krista-F> so is mine..but he does it just to be mean
<krista-F> lol
<krista-F> he knows it drives me
<krista-F> probably hears me swearing under my breath
<spankablecyn> I like the look on vanilla folk's faces when you tell them that the clamps hurt most when being taken off the flesh
<twiceshy> or swatted off with a crop
<dana^^> some D/s'ers can give that look too... grins
<twiceshy> * ouch*
* jen{SE} waves night
<twiceshy> nigth jen{SE}
<BernieRoehl> So, have we found any answers to the question of de-stigmatizing masochism?
* `vixie looks under the rug
<`vixie> don't think so
<twiceshy> nope
<twiceshy> i think it is a hard if not impossible task BernieRoehl Sir
<dana^^> perhaps just accepting that they're not wired as we are... answer questions if asked... and find a new topic... grins
<BernieRoehl> Oh well, at least we tried
<dana^^> lol
<spankablecyn> :)
* twiceshy still hasnt figured out why you can beat me black and blue but when i stub my toe i swear
<`vixie> mindset twiceshy
<`vixie> mindset
<twiceshy> true `vixie
<spankablecyn> unwanted pain
<spankablecyn> Like I said, there is big difference
<twiceshy> ohh i know spankablecyn
* `vixie sneaks a hug with Kilted_One
<twiceshy> <-- being a smart ass
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<spankablecyn> Nighty Night *wave*gone*
<twiceshy> bye spankablecyn
<twiceshy> great discussion thanx all
* twiceshy wanders off
<BernieRoehl> Incidentally, if anyone has any suggestions for new topics, send me some email.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
* BernieRoehl yawns and stretches