September 10 2000 EhBC Online Discussion


<|Karen> so...Community Etiquette...
<|Karen> the idea comes out of a discussion I had with bottoms....
<kathryn_kw> and ?
<|Karen> but has lots of varieties, and ties in with the article on manners going around lately
<|Karen> we were talking about this situation where a bottom asked a Domme to play with him, and she agreed...
<|Karen> but then found out that she had to ask his Domme for permission...
<sindrella> hello all :)
<kathryn_kw> hmmmmmmmm ok so far
<|Karen> Domme A thinks...isn't that asking permission thing up to him to do? why should I have to do it? I'm not a sub to Domme B
<kathryn_kw> but should the bottom have not cleared it with his own dom first
<kathryn_kw> i am a bit confused here
<|Karen> so....what's the etiquette?
<kathryn_kw> ok if i am a collared sub i would expect to ask my Dom first for permission to play with someone else
<|Karen> well, kath...that's my opinion...that the bottom should have cleared it first....not asked Domme A to do it...
<DarkAngel^> in each case ,,, I would think a couple would establish teir own etiquette ?
<LrdThomas> respect for the lifesrtyle dictates you ask the owner. a charge should relay that information to the askee.
<kathryn_kw> and possubly my own Dom could then approach the Domme in question for us ?
<|Karen> why should a second Dom/me have to ask the other, LT?
<`shado> imo a sub asking to play with another without their Dom/me's knowledge is being totally dis-respectful to both
<|Karen> the bottom is the one who initiated the asking...
<kathryn_kw> because the Dom is the owner
* canplay agrees with shado
<kathryn_kw> their responsibiilty although i agree with DA that each couole sets their own rules etc
<LrdThomas> because that is respectful that their is a power exchange in existence. and it is good manners.
<|Karen> but then the owner is imposing her Dominance on the one that her bottom asked to play...
<DarkAngel^> although I dont play with others subs ,, or even play casually ,, I would certainly want to ask the Dom if it was ok to play with their sub
<Mis-J> I see the initial mistake being the sub approaching the other Dom/me.. it should always be arranged by Dominants
<`shado> no Karen they are showing respect
<jen^^> agrees that the permissions should be given and requested from the Doms
<|Karen> well...that is the topic....etiquette.... :)
<kathryn_kw> in the fianl analysis though i think as long as mutual respect for all if given even with breaches of etiquette
<kathryn_kw> things can be resolved satisfactorily
<DarkAngel^> but the Dom/me who actually owns the sub DOES own them ,,, the Dom/me who is asking to play will have ,, in my mind, only a temporary loan
<LrdThomas> so, it is better the bottom who wants to get played with ignore the current power exchage karen? Where is the integrity in that. and why do you presume the dom owning the other dome/sub is exerting power over you?
* tawny^^{_ZZ} smiles hello and gets comfy to listen...
<LrdThomas> i agree MJ.
<|Karen> I think a 'thank you' might be in order....that's the respect part....but if I were the Domme being asked...I wouldn't like being told that I had to go seek permission from someone else first...
<`shado> so if you owned a sub Karen they could just play whereever they liked?
<Chiaroscuro{a}> |Karen you wouldn't use someone's vehicle without permission so why would you use someone's sub?
<|Karen> I might turn around and say to that sub 'since you asked me to play with you, I assume you've cleared it with your own Mistress?"
<jen^^> would not the second Dominant out of respect want to talk to the Owner regardless
<|Karen> it's up to the sub to get permission, not me
<DarkAngel^> I agree ,, but it is hard for me to grasp the full idea ,, since the loaning, borrowing isnt part of my kink
<|Karen> and I would check that s/he had done so, but wouldn't ask for it myself.
<kathryn_kw> hmmm i wasnt thinking of it in the vein of loaning or borrowing DA
<kathryn_kw> but i see what you mean
<Chiaroscuro{a}> well hopefully the sub would clear this time of thing first AND the Dommes would discuss amongst one another...
<zaRina`> perhaps a confirmation of the granted permisson would be the polite thing to do however,,,,to determine limits,,etc
<dalian> it may be up to the sub to get permission...but is it not the respective Dom/mes who handle the actual transfer of property?
<Chiaroscuro{a}> type of thing I mean
<DarkAngel^> is the only way I can see it kathryn_kw ,,
* LrdThomas is lost... i thought sub a <uncollared> asked sub B <colared> to top her, w/o going to sub B's owner. Is that not the example we are discussing?
<canplay> i personally would think a Dom would not wish to play with a sub that has roamed away from their Dom/me in the first place (sounds like trouble brewing)
<|Karen> no, shado...if I owned a sub, I wouldn't lend them out at all...but if I did (lots of assumptions here...this is theory), I'd have my sub ask me first....and would not require the other Domme to approach me
<kathryn_kw> i guess i see a difference between simple play and being loaned
<tawny^^{_ZZ}> was under the impression from what i have seen that usely the Owner is approached and asked...not the sub or slave...
* OT{c} nodes canplay
<DarkAngel^> but I would say ,,, especially if it wasnt something we had discussed before ,,, I would want both parties (my sub & the other Dom/me) to ask
<kathryn_kw> two different things in my own view
<jen^^> no think it is sub a going to Dom/me b and telling Dom/me b to got to Domme A for permission
* `abi hangs up a flow chart for reference
<|Karen> no LT...bottomA asked DommeA to top him, and then told DommeA that she had to ask his owner, DommeB
<Sweetone{LT}> why is the sub asking someone other than his own domme?
<`shado> exactly Sweetone{LT}
* LrdThomas chuckles.... someone asks sweetone to top them, without coming to me, gets a flat no.
<tawny^^{_ZZ}> wondered the same 41,8:)Sweetone{LT}1,8(:4,0 
<LrdThomas> oic, thank you karen.
* zaRina` checks ,, hmmm still have that barn wench application
<DarkAngel^> well for the discussion ,, let us assume that this persons kink involves this extra-relationship play
<`shado> personally i would not show that kind of dis-respect to either Dom/me
<jen^^> thought that was a situation that would not be allowed, bad etiquette in itself
<|Karen> I can agree with that, shado
<LrdTZ> From my point of view on this matter. If a couple have agreed to play with others, my only request is that my sub approach me first and let me know who it is that she wants to play with and if I think that person is safe or if the sub knows them to be safe then I give my consent for the sub to approach the Dom. If a Dom wants to play with my sub then they should come to me and I will ask the sub what she feels about this and set up coffee firs
* dalian always thought one would ask their owner first regardless
<kathryn_kw> i agrree Dalian
<Mis-J> I agree LrdThomas
<DarkAngel^> in a nut shell ,, that feels/seems good to me LrdThomas
<kathryn_kw> has caused a lot of probs when people have played without asking
<|Karen> so....that situation got a bit confusing, and there's some differences....any other interesting etiquette problems?
<LrdThomas> i don't let sweetone approach anyone. Because I don't want her getting the heretical idea she can "negotiate". <grin>
<`shado> lol
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
<jen^^> *smiles*
<Sweetone{LT}> negotiate??
* suthnbelle grins
<unklfkr> LOL
<DarkAngel^> negociating from the bottom ?
<jen^^> subs/slaves negotiate?
<canplay> etiquette = respect in all cases,, and would be left up to personal beliefs,, so let Domme being asked to Top to decide if They wish to go ask or not (still thinks sub should not have gone to that Domme)
<LeatherSmith> before z and i attend any outside venue we discuss certain things so we know exactly what to expect from each other on any given night.
* DarkAngel^ thinks ,, (putting LrdThomas words in his own way) that someone would need to ask me to play with my toys ,,,, already knowing my toy wanted said play
<|Karen> Bernie's told me a story once where he went to a play party in an unfamiliar setting (ie. not his usual crowd here) and he asked a couple of subs to play...and they agreed, but in each case, the same gentleman came over and laid claim to them...
<`shado> sub has to want to play?
<DarkAngel^> of course `shado ,,, SS&C
<`shado> ohhhh
<Sweetone{LT}> lol shado
* canplay consents to what her Doms says :)
<kathryn_kw> what did the subs say |karen
<|Karen> said gentleman was laying claim on subs that weren't his to prevent Bernie from playing with them....the subs in question were furious...
<`shado> i thought so too canplay
<kathryn_kw> lol then Bernie should have politlely removed said Doms family jewels on the spot
<kathryn_kw> lol
<LrdTZ> subs have the right to refuse play with anyone.
<LeatherSmith> then he was not a gentleman after all
<DarkAngel^> me thinks that behaviour goes beyond our lifestyle |Karen
<|Karen> depends on the relationship, LrdTZ...
<`shado> even owned ones LrdTZ?
<Sweetone{LT}> even collared ones LrdTZ?
<zaRina`> if they werent His,, were they someone elses,, and if so why did they agree to play with a strange Dom without clearing it with whomever was their owner
<canplay> maybe Yours does LrdTZ
<LrdTZ> even owned ones yes.
<LrdThomas> there is an aspect of power exchange, that sadly is dying, but that a one time controlled this lifestyle. it was considered a Masters code of conduct. And one of the areas it dealt with, is this very issue. In practice, no one could approach a collared sub and often even asked if the sub was allowed to talk. Alas, that seems a dying aspect of the artform/
<`shado> ohhhh
<|Karen> not all subs have that right....it's part of what they've given up to their owner
<`shado> personally if i agreed to play with someone and someone *laid claim* to me they'd have no head left :)
* _Zig_Zag would be offended if another was to ask tawny to play without approaching Myself first
<LrdTZ> that is negotiated between the sub and the Dom Karen. but were not talking powere exchange here so we can leave that disuccion for later.
<ladywo1f> when i first got into BDSM at the Lizard Lounge and still uncollared there was a Dom that tried that schtik with me.....he got told royally where he could sstick his ownership.....
<kathryn_kw> exactly shado .. if you were not owned
<`shado> strange LrdTZ...i thought power exchange was part of this Community
<LrdThomas> i agree ZZ.
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed shado
<|Karen> in the story that Bernie told me...he was under the impression that they were single...and it turned out that impression was accurate and the other gentleman was lying.
<LrdTZ> it is shado but were not talking about powere exchange here this evening.were talking about etiquette.
<Sweetone{LT}> well, agreed on the pe thing <g>
<`shado> ettiquette in the community
<|Karen> well, LT....we certainly can talk about power exchange as it applies to etiquette...
<LrdTZ> that is a very hot topic and I think one that takes up whole nights to discuss grin.
<Sweetone{LT}> |Karen, how about etiquitte as it applies to pe?
<kathryn_kw> :)
<jen^^> etiguette would require respecting the power exchange and what it means
<|Karen> the situations I've brought up are more topping and bottoming, but I'm interested in other situations...
<zaRina`> i ask permission to kiss a certian sub,,,,, Her Dom most always permits it,, but i never assume,,
<`shado> exactly jen
* |Karen smiles 'that too, Sweetone'
<zaRina`> and i believe its the respect factor that pleases Him most
<LrdTZ> i agree jen.
<LrdThomas> agreed zaRina`
<zaRina`> and in agreement with LT Sir,, things are alot different nowdays
<|Karen> I try to go so far as asking permission to hug friends at munches...it just seems polite.
<LeatherSmith> Domme A should have corected her sub for not coming to her in the first place to approach Domme B
<kathryn_kw> the big problem the way i see it is that its not a universal set of rules or guidelines followed by everyone
<kathryn_kw> so for me
<canplay> permission to hug another sub?
<zaRina`> its simply manners,, and thats all etiquete is
<|Karen> there used to be, kathryn....in the Old Guard days...
<kathryn_kw> i would err in giving the respect and etiquuette until told differently
<|Karen> yes canplay...
<LrdThomas> so lets adopt OG practices.
<kathryn_kw> some may wish to others may not
<LeatherSmith> and zaR knows already what she is allowed to do on her own and what she needs to see me first on
<kathryn_kw> we cant dictate to others
<kathryn_kw> imho
<`shado> to bad respect can't be distated :(
<`shado> dictated even
<kathryn_kw> :)
<canplay> ok does OG say i should seek permission of a subs Dom to hug her?
<LrdThomas> sure we can... just include those who wish to live to the OG standars as your close friends. <g>
* kathryn_kw gets out my dictation machine :)
<{OT}cariye> ettiquette ...The prescribed rules, forms and practices , established for behavior in poilite society
* zaRina` bows to LT
<suthnbelle> nope shado, respect still falls under the category of *things earned* :)
<|Karen> OG standards would say that, yes, canplay....from what I know of OG standards
<zaRina`> respect earned is respect returned
* ladywo1f misses OG.....was brought up that way my first few collarings
<LrdThomas> yes canplay. would that be an imposition to you?
<`shado> you're kidding suthnbelle.....you mean i don't have to bow to a capped nick :)
<kathryn_kw> lol
<canplay> no just a new insight Lrd Thomas
* suthnbelle chuckles....thats up to you sweetie :)
<kathryn_kw> i think also we cant just automatically assume that just because some one calls themselves a Dom/me or sub
<|Karen> I don't know that we need to go back to the strictness of OG....
<canplay> did not know that what i did (ie hug) to a sister sub would need permission from her Dom first
<Sweetone{LT}> lol, shado...yes you do <g>
<kathryn_kw> that they automatically will deserve the etiquette
<`shado> some of us prefer it Karen
* canplay makes notes
<kathryn_kw> i have been known to verbally tear hng trolls and pretenders to shreds
<Sweetone{LT}> there is no confusion that way Karen
<|Karen> I tend to just ask the permission of the person I want to hug, and if it's a sub....I'd expect that she'd tell me if I needed to also ask her Dom..
<kathryn_kw> when they assume they can use me without earning the right
<suthnbelle> canplay....i don't think it is so much a *need* for permission to *hug* a sister, as much as it is a *need* for permission to leave your Owners presence :)
<canplay> actually suthnbelle, leaving my Dom was not at issue
* |Karen dislikes the practise of calling other submissive women 'sisters' but I suppose that's a digression.
<`shado> all boils down to ownership...one does not touch something that is not theirs without permission....i do believe that's taught in kindergarten :)
<jen^^> sounds like OG would take away the need for discussions such as this, because etiquette would be defined and understood by all parties
<LrdThomas> canplay, being unaware is no sin.... soemone, the sub or dom, will quietly take you aside and expalin it, so no one is embarrassed and alll learn from the experience. :))
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed jen :)
<|Karen> that absence would be a breath of fresh air, jen...
<canplay> thanks Lord Thomas, i would hope so :)
<LrdThomas> it is wonderful structure canplay. :)))
* jen^^ if unaware is a sin, no hope for this one, going straight to hell :-) is constantly learning
<|Karen> anyone else have an example of an etiquette problem?
<zaRina`> it bugs me to see people touch others toybox without asking
<suthnbelle> canplay, i wasn't saying *you* needed permission from your Owner to go off and socialize, ie: hug your friends and such... i was saying that in *some* cases, it's not so much that one needs permission to greet a friend, as it is permission to leave his/her's owners side.....imho
* |Karen nods to zaRina` 'that bugs me too'
<LrdTZ> no body should touch a toy bag with out permission..
* dalian can't imagine why anyone would want to
* canplay agrees with dalian
<`shado> so let me get this straight....it's ok to touch the sub but not the toys....hmmm
<jen^^> lol
<kathryn_kw> lol
<ladywo1f> oh in OG it is the appropriate thing to do, when i was at Living in Leather and i saw some folks i wished to go chat with i had to ask, but only after i was asked what was up.....MAster was speaking with another Dom at the time and i dare not interupt....
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
<LrdTZ> did not say it was ok to touch the sub either. and it sure as hell is not ok to touch my sub with out permission
* LeatherSmith hopes his sassy zaR doesn't offend anyone with her good natured banter and socializing, i can tape her to the floor if she is bugging anyone....
<|Karen> I wouldn't want to go back to pure OG ways....I'd have to start addressing every so-called Dom/me as "Sir" or "Ma'am" and y'all know how much that would bug me :)
<zaRina`> even if they are on display,, hung on walls,,, etc,, being facintated with various whips and such,, i will look,, and ask the owner, if i may touch or try it... usually it is granted,, but i would rather clear it first than to be embarrased *and rightfully so** by the owner as He/She chewed me out
<kathryn_kw> lol LS
<kathryn_kw> not :)
<kathryn_kw> she is fine imho
<`shado> there's the difference Karen....OG did not have wannabes :)
<`shado> OG is not based on internet cyber garbage :)
<|Karen> hmmmmm....I think they did....they just got weeded out a hell of a lot faster...
<Sweetone{LT}> yes, they got weeded out..not recycled
<LrdThomas> no Karen... you would have to address the ones you respected that way. and within the group synamic, if enough doms weren't respected by you, why would you stay> See that is how it works.
* |Karen smiles, would stay to give them a chance to earn that respect.
<|Karen> Permission, btw, doesn't always have to be explicit....to touch toys or subs...
<_Zig_Zag> ah but u have to earn Their respect also Karen
<`shado> exactly ZZ
<`shado> how so Karen?
<|Karen> but you have to know the person you're talking to...
<jen^^> why do we automatically choose to not respect instead of respect until it is not earned?
<LrdThomas> not given that opportunity karen. it has been earned, long before you joined the group. One can accept that or not, but the masters won't put up with attitude becAUSE SOME NEWBIE TO THE GROUP THINKS SHE CAN COME IN AND CHANGE THE DYNAMIC. BUT, THIS IS ALL EXPLAINED BEFORE YOU GET TO JOIN THE GROUP.
<ladywo1f> other thing with OG is that you always greet the Dom before the sub
<OT{c}> I agree with jen^^
<_Zig_Zag> true enough jenn
* |Karen raises an eyebrow at the caps...
<LrdThomas> oops, sorry for the cap lock.
<dalian> makes sense to me ladywo1f
* |Karen nods
<DarkAngel^> lol,, hapens to me alot LrdThomas
<LrdThomas> that too is correct ladywolf, and isn't it womderful to watch. :)
<|Karen> true, LT...in that case, you're right, I probably wouldn't stay with the group
<LeatherSmith> i personnaly find that with very few exceptions, the folks i meet r/l in the ont. bdsm "community" are the most polite, considerate and intelligent people as a group overall and is very proud to be involved
<`shado> exactly LT......people were not just accepted into OG because they could cap or not cap their nicks
<_Zig_Zag> tried and true
<kathryn_kw> LS by and large i agree with you
<kathryn_kw> with few exceptions
<kathryn_kw> eg some fet nights etc
<DarkAngel^> I think those who dont realy accept the lifestyle (read HNG ) are quickly weeded out
<kathryn_kw> its not just internet that has the jerks/wannabees :)
<LeatherSmith> i have found most people to be very well mannered and excersise good etiquet, perhaps because we treat others the way we ecpect to be treated
* |Karen also generally agrees....but finds that her exceptions list is getting longer all the time
<ladywo1f> myself as a sub could not great my friend also a sub that was owned unless i asked if i may hug her hello, eventually He gave the ok that i could bounce up and say hello to her without permission....as long as she wasn't busy
<`shado> i disagree DA...unfortunately alot are not weeded out
<|Karen> which, perhaps is why I was interested in moderating a discussion on etiquette
<kathryn_kw> but you had earned that ladywolf
<Flashback519> Why is someone who "doesn't fully accept the lifestyle" an HNG? I'm not into every aspect and most ppl prolly aren't either.
<DarkAngel^> yes `shado ,,, I am still holding on
<zaRina`> when i entered LT's circle, and thank You once again for inviting me Sir,, being a switch presented a minor difficulty for only a moment,, it was indicated that i should choose one role or the other,,so to ensure continuity of address and expectations,, and its worked out perfectly
<ladywo1f> everything is EARNED in OG
<_Zig_Zag> :)
<kathryn_kw> Flashback i dont think hng has anything to do with full or part lifestyle
<kathryn_kw> smile
<LrdThomas> zarina, or become the ;ightswitch.... didn't matter to me. lol :P
<LeatherSmith> LOL
<ladywo1f> HNG's are people that can't be bothered to learn the ettiquette in my book
<zaRina`> i still am a switch, but do not expect to have the right to Dominate entitlement while interacting with this circle,, ,,so the rules were clear and understandable prior to deciding to remain
<Demoneira> Flashback, I don't think being into every aspet is the same as "accepting" that other people are and respecting that though you choose not to practice it
<kathryn_kw> i have a slightly different and more nasty description of hngs :)
<|Karen> okay....been wracking my mind for more etiquette problem examples...
<_Zig_Zag> oh come on F/folks when I was a kid My grandmother taught Me My p's a q's../. vanilla or not it applys to life
<Flashback519> sorry, I just find hng a historic derogatory term. it's from efnet #bdsm where they were quite hardcore lifestylers with 0 tolerance for win3.1 using newbies.
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed ZZ
<_Zig_Zag> don't have to be in the lifestyle to use common sense
<kathryn_kw> np Flashback
<_Zig_Zag> if an ass acts like when then the chances are it is
<`shado> exactly ZZ
<dalian> or common respect
<kathryn_kw> it has taken on new dimensions since then :)
<|Karen> what about the Dom (and yes, it's mostly men) who thinks they can presume upon a sub at first meeting?
<unklfkr> i had someone offer to buy my socks yesterday......i knew not to d it unless being given permission first....
<Demoneira> what exactly is "hng"?
<`shado> hng = horny net geek
<Sweetone{LT}> horny net geek
<tawny^^{_ZZ}> there are female HNG's as well...
<|Karen> say....with 'please call me Sir' or addressing her as 'little one' or leaning too far into her personal space?
<kathryn_kw> thats an hng in my book |karen
<Sweetone{LT}> was this a favourite pair of socks unklfkr??
<kathryn_kw> they havent earned the right yet
<|Karen> all of which have happened to me at one time or another...
<Demoneira> gotcha.. Iknow a few of them.. met a lot on the way to get here
<unklfkr> not particualrly.....tho when i asked master,....he said i need to up the offered price next time then it woulda been ok ;)
<`shado> lol
<zaRina`> why the issue with addressing a new Dominate as Sir if He requests it? would you prefer to address him as Buddy?
* unklfkr will only call someone Sir if they have earned my respect..and Master would ahve it no other way
<|Karen> this is something that I don't know about Old Guard....what is their take on how to treat a single submissive upon first greeting?
<kathryn_kw> sometimes i would prefer to address them as ass or worse if their behaviour warrants it
<unklfkr> or, to put it better, have earned His respect
<LrdThomas> what did i offer again unklfkr?
<`shado> lol kathryn_kw
<|Karen> if Buddy is his given name, zaRina, then yes, I'd prefer it to the title
<unklfkr> *g* You, Sir, would get em gratis, i am sure :))
<`shado> i tend to adress people by their names
<Sweetone{LT}> so these socks were in good shape then <g>
<dalian> using the term Sir upon any old circumstance meeting belittles the title in my opinion
<zaRina`> but if He specifically asked to be addressed as Sir...would you choose to disregard this?
<unklfkr> lol
<|Karen> yes dalian....complete agreement
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed dalian
<`shado> you would if instructed by your Master too zar
<_Zig_Zag> Karen upon a first meeting what do u say to a Dom/Domme before u know Her/His name?
<LrdThomas> have any of you given much thpought to how ridiculous uncollared subs sound calling everyone Sir? this agrgument works both ways.
<ladywo1f> it is understood in my upbringing that when out with the OG i was to address all Tops/Doms etc as Sir
<Flashback> dammit, sorry
<DarkAngel^> I know some (Gorean) tend to use the word Master ,, but it makes me uncomfortable ,, to me that is a personal word used only by my sub/slave
<|Karen> I would choose to disrespect the request because I don't know him at all, whether he deserves the title...we are talking about first meeting here
<zaRina`> i dont see the title of Sir as anything other than a show of recognizing their position
<DarkAngel^> Sir or my name or DA is fine
<_Zig_Zag> agreed ladywo1f
<`shado> what position is that zar?
<zaRina`> i agree DarkAngel, i would not address anyone as Master other than my own
<luvsub> i call everyone Sir or Ma'am unless they say it makes them feel too old, LordThomas, Sir :)
<|Karen> Zig_Zag...I'd extend my hand and say 'hi, nice to meet you..my name is Karen.'
<Sweetone{LT}> Karen, you would disrespect the judgement of your dom?
<_Zig_Zag> ok
* tawny^^{_ZZ} uses Sir and Ma`am out of politeness and respect...if you turn out to be a jerk, its no longer used...just me...
<Sweetone{LT}> if he has deemed someone worthy of being addressed as Sir?
<LrdThomas> i prefer slaves screaming "SIR" when they have more holes drilled in them, than they were born with. <g>
* `shado cracks up
<Sweetone{LT}> lol
<zaRina`> oh my
<|Karen> _My_ Dom, Sweetone....no, I wouldn't.
<ladywo1f> wicked grin!
<LeatherSmith> LMAO
<_Zig_Zag> :)
<kathryn_kw> i thought |karen was asking as a
<unklfkr> *hehe*
* DarkAngel^ gets a chuckle out of A/anyone who ALWAYS uses small letters no matter what
<dalian> i would address anyone as my owner requests...period
<kathryn_kw> ' sinlgle unattached uncollard person /
<|Karen> but I wouldn't agree to a D/s relationship with a Dom that had fundamental differences of etiquette with
<kathryn_kw> darrn typos
<LrdThomas> so, let me ask this.... what does it say of an uncollared sub addressing everyone Sir, including some aholes you both are aware of?
* |Karen smiles, isn't quite a single unattached person anymore...but that's a digression as well.
<ladywo1f> it says that they do not know any better
<kathryn_kw> Sir is used as a term of respect
<zaRina`> you can easily say, nice to meet you Sir, or if needed,, your an asshole Sir,, please excuse me, and walk away
<kathryn_kw> and if the person doesnt deserve it he doesnt get it
<kathryn_kw> imho
<`shado> respect for what tho kathryn_kw?
<_Zig_Zag> respect should be offered (both ways) untill unwarrented...
<ladywo1f> everyone gets basic respects until they prove themselves deserving otherwise in my bool
<kathryn_kw> respect for person in the position
<Demoneira> but kathryn, if you don't know the person it's hard to respect them
<`shado> what *position*???
* unklfkr feels calling any 'joe' Sir lessens the respect she feels for ppl who she *does* call Sir, but thats jsut me....
<DarkAngel^> I agree _Zig_Zag ,, that is the Canadian ( and DA's) way
<tawny^^{_ZZ}> agree ladywo1f
* dalian agrees with unklfkr
<LrdThomas> agreed unklfkr
<kathryn_kw> as a " Dom "
<|Karen> to me, LrdThomas....a single sub addressing everyone as Sir or Mistress says.....desperate.
<luvsub> it shows that they give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they see the truth about the *ahole* in question, LordThomas, Sir
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed unklfkr :)
<unklfkr> lol luvsub
<`shado> and until they prove they are Dom/me kathryn_kw...what then?
<Demoneira> well what about switches? how do they adress either side?
<LrdThomas> that is not what i asked tho luvsub....i asked what does it say of her if both know the other dom is an ahole.
<kathryn_kw> then i will treat them with mutual common respect
<kathryn_kw> until they prove different
<kathryn_kw> postively or negatively
<ladywo1f> i am starting to swithc alot more these days and only expect the one under My thumb to call me m'Lady otherwise just adrian/ladywolf will do
<`shado> so because someone says they are Dom/me they automatically *deserve* to be adressed as Sir or Ma'am ?
<Peppermint_Patty> titles are a persoanl opinion.. no use saying any one of them is right. a sub will address other Masters and Mistresses as intructed by their Master/Mistress, or enquire how other Masters/Mistresses would like to be addressed if they have not been instructed otherwise
<|Karen> if both are aware that the dom is an asshole...it says that the title means nothing to her, and she has no respect, self or otherwise...
<Peppermint_Patty> ..right marcie?
<kathryn_kw> not in my book shado
<kathryn_kw> saying is different than being
<`shado> exactly kathryn_kw....thus why should i adress anyone with Sir or Ma'ma that has not earned that right imo
<LrdThomas> i agree karen, and we see that all too much at various munches.
<kathryn_kw> good one |karen
<Demoneira> i guess nmy theory is, terms of res
<Demoneira> oops
<|Karen> not only would I not call all Dom/mes by a title.....when I did wish to call one by a title, I would ask their permission first to use the title.
<kathryn_kw> we are in agreement shado :)
<`shado> using a person's name imo shows respect
<kathryn_kw> names are good :)
<unklfkr> agreed shado
<|Karen> they may not wish to be addressed so by someone who is not theirs.
<DarkAngel^> I dont totaly agree |Karen ,,, my neighbour is an asshole ,, but I am polite for the short time I have to see him ,,, our lifestyle doesnt break down because some (and only some) respect is given for the title
<ladywo1f> nods.....then it is up to them to indicate such
<Demoneira> terms of respect shuld be earned over time unless being said for respect of your dom's wishes
<zaRina`> i agree with DA
<tndrsub> also agree with DA
<|Karen> I think it does start to break down there, DA.
<|Karen> and not just the lifestyle, but all of society.
<ladywo1f> i think this is where i get kinda screwed up to between New LEather and Old Guard....
<_Zig_Zag> how could one ever hope to gain the respect of an old gaurd Dom/Domme if a moderate amout of respect isn't shown to Them upon first impressions???
<|Karen> it's 10pm now....the official part of the discussion is over, and the log can end here, but feel free to continue with the topic..
<LrdThomas> ZZ, play dumb. <g>
<_Zig_Zag> lol Lrd T
<|Karen> thank you to Sweetone for logging, and unklfkr/glory for changing the channel greeting :)
<ladywo1f> nods.....you catch sh*t quick with OG if you do not show respects.....likely to get your ears boxed
<kathryn_kw> by showing basic respect on an equal level if its returned
<unklfkr> salllright :)
<Sweetone{LT}> thanks Karen
<canplay> greetings Sir Bear and trufriend
<SirBear> hi all
<jen^^> Thank You Karen
<canplay> thanks Karen
<SirBear> hi canplay
<^trufriend> evenin' folks
* |Karen smiles 'you're welcome'
<kathryn_kw> hi tru
<tndrsub> evening tru
<_Zig_Zag> kathryn_kw I already stated On My part it would have been
* ^trufriend smiles @ Justice
<_Zig_Zag> or if I didn't I just thought I said it :)
<kathryn_kw> smile then you would be getting it in return i would assume
<Sweetone{LT}> bbiab
<DarkAngel^> thanks |Karen