September 3 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

* BernieRoehl looks around for Stephen-D
* slut^kat looks at Bernie lookin around...
<Opal``> i think he is in England
<BernieRoehl> I think Stephen is away on holidays, so he won't be able to moderate tonight's discussion (which is a shame, since it's a topic that he knows a great deal about from his previous involvement with the swinging scene)
<BernieRoehl> We can change topics, or go with the original one
<Demoneira> you can switch his and mine *grin*
<BernieRoehl> If you like, Demoneira
* BernieRoehl likes the idea, since it gets Him off the hook for moderating tonight :-)
<Dr_Eva> ok, so what is the topic now Bernie?
<BernieRoehl> Are you game to do it, Demoneira?
<BernieRoehl> I'll set a channel message and away we go Demoneira
<BernieRoehl> Demoneira's topic is "The Mental and the Physical"
<Demoneira> bear with me everyone Ive never moderated before
<BernieRoehl> I've set an automatic message that reads as follows
<BernieRoehl> Welcome to our regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to say something, but remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We recommend using as your server, to minimize lag. Tonight's discussion topic is "The Mental and the Physical". The moderator tonight is Demoneira. Enjoy the discussion!
<BernieRoehl> (We'll save the swinging topic for when Stephen's back in town)
<Dr_Eva> ok fine
<elegantsarah{DEM}> and, in fact, when Doms bring in other subs, they may not call it swinging but I don't really see much of a distinction
<BernieRoehl> I've started logging the discussion. Over to you, Demoneira!
<Demoneira> ok... thanks Bernie
<TheWolfe> so what is the topic
<Dr_Eva> ticking...
<slut^kat> tickling?
<Dr_Eva> the time clock on the dead air
<Demoneira> the reason I asked for this topic is that being a new person to r/t BDSM.. I'm curious about the mental and physical aspects of BDSM
<slut^kat> that can be both mental and physical
<dalian> just started -ChanServ:#bdsm-kw- `abi has opped Demoneira
<Dr_Eva> long term or in a scene?
<Demoneira> now I'm curious as to whether anyone find one more important than the other.. in a scene
<Dr_Eva> I find the mental has the most response
<Bare_Naked> i understand that tonights topic is swinging and Bdsm?
<BernieRoehl> I think both aspects are important, and things are often at their best when the physical is an expression or manifestation of the mental
<Dr_Eva> not any more
<Bare_Naked> oh
<dalian> i think they both provide the balance necessary for the scene and relationship
<Bare_Naked> i missed it than
<TheWolfe> if the mental isn't there the physical may not work
<Dr_Eva> no the moderator couldn't show
<Demoneira> does there HAVE to be a mental connection between the t\Top and bottom?
<TheWolfe> yes
<Bare_Naked> who was the moderator to be
<Dr_Eva> bare naked - change of topic
<`lucius> I see it as a zen thing. It is the combination of the mental and the physcical that makes the real magic happen.
<TheWolfe> ok...define mental
* `lucius hugs ^trufriend in a non-interuppting sort of way
<LeatherSmith^n^zaR> mental >>>> the fantsisies that go through my mind as io contempolate how next to torture zaRina
<Demoneira> Mental connection to me would mean some type of "spark".. the feeling that you can work together easily
<elegantsarah{DEM}> I think that one CAN have great physical connectedness in casual play without there being a really strong mental connection
<TheWolfe> mental and physical are both on a sliding scale
<elegantsarah{DEM}> but if there is going to be a long term relationship, obviously there has to be both
<Demoneira> but does that make the play feel any different sarah?
<Dr_Eva> true sarah, and you can have a great communication of the scene idea and not need so much physical stimulation
<TheWolfe> one scene can be weighted more one way others can be balanced
<Demoneira> so you think that a scene can be "pulled off" based primarily on the mental Dr_Eva?
<elegantsarah{DEM}> Yes, I think it's a physical rush.....but a mental; rush can also be be done without much touching but the mental means you need to know your partner better
<Dr_Eva> yes I do
<`vixie> i think it can Demoneira....if you put the sub in the right frame of mind it goes a long way
<Demoneira> this question goes for the subs, but would you find it harder to sbmit without a mental link during a scene?
<`lucius> I personaly belive that a mental connection should exist before physical ones are attempted. They always do on at least some level...unless you're doing the "glory hole" thing
<elegantsarah{DEM}> But, I know there are times when I crave/seek a really physical scene, when I want my brain shut off and others when I love the head connectedness
<TheWolfe> en said "it depends what i'm submitting to"
<Demoneira> so each can work independantly for you sarah?
<Dr_Eva> there's a dyke objectification party once a year, and the bottoms have no view of anything, they are done in every way imaginable by any of the tops there.
<Dr_Eva> no warning, no breaks
<TheWolfe> Demoneira...the recipe changes
* `lucius has been to parties similar to that
<elegantsarah{DEM}> Now, that appeals to me Dr. Eva
<slut^kat> i doubt that a sub ever simply submit on a physical level.. you have to mentally submit yourself prior to even getting into a scene with a Dominant... imho
<Dr_Eva> I can get you the address
<elegantsarah{DEM}> No.....not always but they can
<Demoneira> do you find that easier or harder as a Top Dr_Eva?
<`lucius> I've noticed that purely physical play tends to happen most often with same sex couples or groups
<Dr_Eva> I would find it easier
<Dr_Eva> each of the bottoms at the party merely has a list on hard limits posted
<elegantsarah{DEM}> and I think that when you are with a partner for a long do have that connectedness most of the time. An analogy might be that sometimes you want to make love and sometimes you just want to fuck!
<Dr_Eva> I've seen lots more role playing in the queer world
<Dr_Eva> elaborate role playing with lots of mental work
* `lucius nods
<elegantsarah{DEM}> I think that's because het women are brought up to view casual sex as bad, lucius
<`lucius> that's basicaly right up my alley
<Dr_Eva> so are dykes, but we overcome it...
<elegantsarah{DEM}> You have already overcome your conditioning by coming out
<Demoneira> do you think that is why so many subs look for long term sarah?
<elegantsarah{DEM}> No....I think that people look for long term
<TheWolfe> agreed
<`lucius> long term means stability.
<`lucius> something to hold onto in an everchanging world
<Dr_Eva> I like to get my sub's minds racing with mental imagery
<Demoneira> I'm just asking because of what you said.. if casual sex were not so "frowned upon" in certain upbringings, would there be more just physical contact?
<Dr_Eva> just what am I capable of and how far will I go?
<`lucius> there would be...and there is in other cultures Demoneira
<elegantsarah{DEM}> Well, I can't speak for all....but I have gone through periods in my life when I wasn't ready for a relationship per se but did want physical contact/play
<Dr_Eva> I find the mental really enhances the physical
* `lucius nods in aggreement with elegantsarah{DEM}
<Demoneira> enhances, but not nessecary?
<Dr_Eva> it's necessary for me
<`lucius> I had no attachments for a year after my divorce..and I stil don't play with the girls.
<Dr_Eva> it's boring to say, "ok, I'm gonna flog you now, then whip you, then..."
<Demoneira> so basically a connection with your partner adds an extra interest?
<`lucius> of course
<`lucius> don't you find that sex with a chosen partner tends to get better over time?
<Demoneira> but you don't have to have it in order to have an effective scene?
<Demoneira> no it got worse cause it got boring luscius
<`lucius> that does happen...but that is when the mental connection is missing
* dalian agrees with lucius
<Demoneira> I was with him for 2 and a half years... he just didn't want to venture where I did
<`lucius> pure physical is good for the "one timer"
<Dr_Eva> yep
<`lucius> but for real need the mental
<Demoneira> mentally we were ok... but my physical needs were not being met
<`lucius> that's when you find the real discover the body...intamacy.
<Demoneira> so what about people who are fairly new to the scene like myself... should one go out and play, or find "the one"?
<LeatherSmith^n^zaR> i am gonna beat you until your skin peels off, then reach inside your head and rip your ego screaming from your skull is mental
<`lucius> but if you were connected mentatly...he would know you were unsatisfied.
<`lucius> and you would have no problem in telling him that you werent
<Flashback519> As a woman, you are likely to have no problem finding people to play with if you choose to Demoneira.
<`lucius> it's a catch 22. You have to play to find the one.
<`lucius> Unfortunately...we can't see all of a person so quickly.
<Demoneira> I'm sure Flashback519, but the problem I happen to be running into is in fact that if I DON'T have connection, it doesn't work for me
<Flashback519> Sounds like you need a kinky boyfriend Demoneira.
<slut^kat> ;-)
<Demoneira> something like that :)
<Demoneira> it's more or less a case that if I do not FEEL like I am being topped, I just can't get involved and feel comfortable about it
<`vixie> i'm the same way Demoneira
<`vixie> but i feel it more mentally
<Demoneira> so what do you do when you run into such a situation vixie?
<`vixie> if i don't find what i need?
<Demoneira> yes
<`vixie> then i leave, i need to know that what i'm getting is what i want
<`vixie> it's like a craving
* `vixie shrugs
<`lucius> you still have to remember that any physical exchange between two people is a compromise
<Demoneira> so for you, the mental has to be there to acheive physical satisfaction?
* `vixie nods and nods
<`vixie> very much so
* fire^with^nurse comes back..wipes at her tears and settles in
<`lucius> you both have something you're looking for.
* `vixie sends comforting thoughts to fir
<`vixie> fire even
<`lucius> but unfortunately, most of us cannot verbalize our needs for our partners.
<`lucius> what's wrong fire^runner^?
<fire^runner^> ok so whats the discussion?
<`lucius> serendipity...U2's "still haven't found..." is playing right now
<`vixie> that's very true lucius, it's hard to verbalize needs
<slut^kat> mental and physical
<`lucius> we all want our partners to read our minds
* `vixie wishes the whole world had telepathy
<`lucius> the secret is to just _say_ what you want
<`lucius> don't expect to get it...but say it.
* Demoneira apologizes for being slow but has a screaming baby
* `vixie hums lullabye's ;)
* `lucius hums Joe Walsh's "life's been good"
<Demoneira> now when you have a mental connection, how do you use it to affect the physical?
<`lucius> that one is easy
<`lucius> you aren't afraid to ask for what you want
* `vixie nods
<`lucius> you shed the shame, and start exploring the real possibilities
<`vixie> i find that once my mind is there i start to babble sometimes
<Demoneira> what about from the other side? does a connection make Tops more lenient?
<`lucius> babbling is good tho'
* slut^kat looks at the tops in the room...
<BernieRoehl> That's a tricky one, Demoneira...
<`lucius> it depends on their angle.
* `lucius can only speak as a switch
* slut^kat contemplates a Dom's angle... angling..dangling.. mm...
<BernieRoehl> My answer is yes, and it's sometimes a problem. As I begin to develop an emotional connection, it becomes harder (in several ways) to be as cruel as I can be in the beginning. I get lenient.
* `vixie hands kat a towel for her drool
<slut^kat> tks hon
<slut^kat> ;-)
<Demoneira> us there a way to prevent that Bernie?
<`lucius> But when your understanding of their needs becomes you actualy have greater difficulty in satisfying it Bernie?
<`lucius> as in; I care too much for you to leave marks?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Demoneira, but it takes a lot of concentration
<BernieRoehl> In particular, I find I have to really get myself into Domspace before even beginning the scene
<BernieRoehl> Not so much more difficulty, `lucius, but rather a feel of being torn between by gentle, loving, nurturing side and my "inner Dom"
* `lucius nods
<`lucius> I had to overcome that with my mate
<`lucius> as we grew more attached..he had greater and greater difficulty with certain things.
<Demoneira> i think also lucius, that if you have a good connection, a subs pleading would have more impact because you feel with them wouldn't it?
<`lucius> but there is a difference between pleading...and pleading...the mental connection is what you need to know where the line lies.
<Demoneira> but wouldn't it be easier to ignore in random play?
<`lucius> the line between fantasy and reality will always exsist...but the idea is to blur it.
<fire^runner^> going to lay down
<fire^runner^> be well
<Demoneira> do you think that if the mental link doesn't exist that makes it easier to go "too far?"
<BernieRoehl> If I let myself get into the right frame of mind beforehand, I can ignore the pleading. Otherwise, I find it gets to me.
<`lucius> well...bad things can happen to people if things are ignored Demoneira
<`lucius> a top cannot ignore anything
<`lucius> it's a tightrope.
<Demoneira> exactly what I mean lucius.. if there is no link.. and it's a random play.. how does one know the differences in pleading?
<BernieRoehl> Well, pleading (sans safewords) is in-scene, and is *intended* to be ignored. That's why knowing your partner is so critical, so the difference is clear
<`lucius> that's why random play is never as satisfiying as long term connection...
<`lucius> that's why people look for that.
* BernieRoehl nods
<`lucius> and in some conditions..even safewords are ignored.
<`lucius> but that's very deep.
<BernieRoehl> I generally agree, lucius, but still... I've done scenes with complete strangers that have been *incredibly* connected and intense. A lot seems to depend on the two people, and their individual moods at the moment.
<Demoneira> so in order for any scene to be fully satisfying there needs to be both parts satiated?
<`lucius> I'm not saying it can't happen. Sometimes people just connect..without a word...
<BernieRoehl> Exactly
<`lucius> I've done it. Not a word spoken on my part...but we both walked away knowing that something very special had happened
<Demoneira> so there can be the immediat connect or a long term built up connect.. both effective in their own right?
<`lucius> it's all a crap shoot Demoneira
<BernieRoehl> This may sound very strange, especially coming from a person as verbal as I am, but there are times when it's better not to talk
* `lucius nods
<`lucius> sometimes there is a non-verbal connection.
<Demoneira> you mean so when you get involved with a scene, you basically get a mood from it and go with what it deems apprpriate?
<BernieRoehl> Yes, and sometimes the verbal makes the magic go away
<`lucius> hell, I've felt the earth move with people I've never heard speak.
<BernieRoehl> Yes, Demoneira, but for me it's often not even as specific as a scene. It's more subtle than that
<Demoneira> you mean you get an impression just from the person themselves?
<`lucius> it's an empathic thing
<BernieRoehl> Yes -- from body language, eye contact...
<Demoneira> which means you have the mental connection before anything does happen....
<`lucius> not everyone has that ability tho'..and we all have it in varying degrees
<BernieRoehl> I once went to a (scene-friendly) dinner party in someone's home. Made eye contact with a submissive, and during the evening renewed that eye contact periodically.
<`lucius> there's always at least a minimal mental connection
<BernieRoehl> After dinner, I walked over and took her by the hair, and she dropped like a rock. Not a word said, not a scene, but just a wonderful interaction between two people.
<Demoneira> which brings me back to the newbie thing lucius.. if I were to play for the sake of playing.. just for the feeling of the equipment.. is something lost without a link?
<BernieRoehl> It depends on what you're looking for.
<`lucius> don't assume you won't find a link Demoneira
<BernieRoehl> If it's the link that you're after, the answer is yes. But if there's something else, then the answer may be no.
<BernieRoehl> And lucius is right -- you may *find* a link, even if you're not *looking* for one.
<Demoneira> does the link help to change the psychical into a more sexual context?
<`vixie> i think it depends on the person Demoneira
<`lucius> that's when you do find things..when you stop looking
* Demoneira retreives once again screaming child
<`lucius> my personal advice would be to just start exploring if you feel that desire.
<`lucius> _be_ verbal about your interests.
<`lucius> we can't read each others we have to use language.
<BernieRoehl> Don't rush anything, take the time to find out what's right for you.
<`lucius> even if everything we've been raised with tells us not to
<Demoneira> I'm trying Bernie... I think that might be why I need to find that link... or maybe I just can't sub worth a darn.. to be perfectly honest I was much more interested in what Dr Eva was doing than who she was doing it to...
<BernieRoehl> Then explore that.
<`lucius> if you're exploring..don't build up walls...tear them down.
<Demoneira> I assume it's one of those things that just grab you unexpectedly.. the spark finds you?
<`lucius> I wasn't raised to be was hell coming to terms with that
<BernieRoehl> Whatever gives you pleasure -- physical or mental -- is what you should explore.
* `vixie hugs lucius
* `lucius smiles and hugs `vixie back
<`lucius> the real truth is...the only "rules" that exist, are the ones we create for ourselves.
<DukeDom> Is this discussion officially over yet?
<Demoneira> so the first step is mentally connecting with yourself, THEN connecting with another
* BernieRoehl smiles
<`lucius> that's where _everything_ starts
<`lucius> but you're it's already started
<BernieRoehl> And on that note... yes, let's end it there. :-)
* `vixie smiles
<BernieRoehl> I'd like to thank Demoneira for a great job moderating, and stepping in at the last minute!
* BernieRoehl applauds Demoneira
* `vixie claps for Demoneira
* `lucius appologizes for being a blabberdonkey
<DukeDom> well done Demoneira
<Demoneira> thanks guys :) that spur of the moment thing really throws ya for a loop
* `lucius adds his appreciation.
<Flashback519> Thanks Demoneira, I bet you gained alot of insight from some of these elders too.
<`lucius> excellent conversationg