August 22 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our weekly discussion.
<BernieRoehl> This week's topic is "Ramifications of being a Dom when dealing with other people"
<BernieRoehl> Please refrain from "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.
<BernieRoehl> Also keep in mind that the discussion is being logged, and will be posted to our web site.
<BernieRoehl> If you wish to say something but remain anonymous, please change your nick first
<BernieRoehl> So, to get things started...
<BernieRoehl> The starting assumption here is that being a Dom is more than just an activity, or a way of relating sexually.
<LrdTZ> its a way of life.
<BernieRoehl> It's an intrinsic part of who you are, and therefore is a part of you regardless of what circumstances you're in.
<BernieRoehl> So the question becomes, what consequences (both good and bad) are there to having a Dom essence in everyday life?
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any initial thoughts?
<LrdTZ> you can get told that your too agressive at work.
* Kilted_One thinks that is dependant on the for instance has very little problems cause I'm just a happy go luck joker all the time
<`NetMaster> some jobs require that type of personality, a ships captain, an airline captain, a policeman...
<Lord_Daimion> but being forthright can be good. Dom/mes still need to ahve a little self control when dealing 
<LrdTZ> well I wish I was that way but I have 20 years in the military as a background and I tend to be a little domanding at times and my job makes me that way sometimes as well.
<Kilted_One> a Manufacturing Engineer with 125 crying workers to look after
<`NetMaster> union?
<Kilted_One> of course
<Kilted_One> Boiler makers to boot
<LrdTZ> work both sides of that union and non union. I have to balance the difference between management and workers and I come across all dom sometimes.
<BernieRoehl> A question for the Doms, then... have you tended to gravitate towards occupations or activities that mesh with your Dom persona?
<LrdTZ> For me that is easy yes.
<`NetMaster> i did, in the military, the airlines and as the owner of a company with 22 crying workers.....
* Kilted_One would agree with that....middle shit and getting shit
<LrdTZ> Grins that is me.
<BernieRoehl> And have you found yourself having to hold back, to keep your natural instincts in check?
* vixen{KO} doesn't think Master's look good in checks...
<LrdTZ> Yes for sure. leaving the Military and dealing with civilians you have to approach them differently.
<Kilted_One> only holding back is takin a flogger to some of them ;)
<`NetMaster> i have many times but isnt that part of being a Dom? control?
<`NetMaster> both of self and others?
<Lord_Daimion> Definetly. Its acctually really difficult at time when a customer is being a complete ass to not lash and out and put them in there place.
<Kilted_One> what about the submissives in channel.....are they submissive in their every day lives??
<trufriend> i'm not
<autumn_whspr> in some ways yes
<swann{ME}> i'm definately not 
* vixen{KO} lives her life as a Switch...LOL
<autumn_whspr> at work i'd say im definitely not....
<trufriend> other then the willingness to "serve", which is a natural thing for me and will do it whenever called for
<autumn_whspr> but other places in my life very 
<BernieRoehl> So would it be fair to say that the Doms and Dommes have had occupations that mesh with their personas, whereas most of the submissives here haven't
<BernieRoehl> ?
* jalyn plays both roles in her jobs
<autumn_whspr> well BernieRoehl....not quite I'd say
<`forbidden> well i'm a switch at work
<swann{ME}> i'm not sure about that 
<Kilted_One> sounds like it Bernie
<`forbidden> have to take control of nasty customers but also have to get the info they need and report to my boss
<Lord_Daimion> yeah id have to say though although Ive had professions that mesh and dont but thats because I am a switch so Im not really to sure I guess.
<autumn_whspr> my reputation on the job is harsh professional....i leave it behind the second 5pm rolls around
<autumn_whspr> no room for subbin there
* trufriend smiles
* `forbidden also has to say Sir and Ma'am all day long
<trufriend> guess that's why i went into teh retail serve the public with pride
<Lord_Daimion> cant stand that in the work place(saying Sir and Ma'am)
<autumn_whspr> i do feel however like I have to strive harder in my job
<`forbidden> ah if the customers are nice then i say it because i respect them
<Kilted_One> what about in the home Bernie? rather than at work??
<`forbidden> without the customer i have no job
<Opal`> i am naturally submissive... but as an aspiring leader... i have to constantly fight against that at work... and give myself permission to tell people what to do
<BernieRoehl> Yes, KO... that's a good question.  What about social situations?
<autumn_whspr> socially im all sub
<Lord_Daimion> ok yes but If I can get there first name I prefer to call them by that is more personal
* jalyn finds that she always immediately tones down her managerial style depending on if a male is with her
* vixen{KO} finds that having worked for so many jobs in the service industries...that i tend to Domme others in the same trade...cause i know a well done job
<swann{ME}> socially i am all slave 
<Kilted_One> there it is more natural to be oneself
<`forbidden> at a grocery store Lord_Daimion?
* `forbidden is a sub socially
<trufriend> in the home, being a single mom...i am the dominant one
<BernieRoehl> I'm thinking of non-scene social situations.  Shopping, eating in a restaurant, things like that.
<`forbidden> slave around certain people
<Lord_Daimion> depend on the size of the city really I tend to be able to get peoples names quite easy.
<autumn_whspr> trufriend...thats the best part of it though
<swann{ME}> i'm slave 
<trufriend> puddle around certain people
<autumn_whspr> being a single mom allows in a way an understanding of being Dom
<autumn_whspr> not that I have any remote desire to be one just understand it better
<trufriend> i suppose autumn_whspr
<swann{ME}> my family is older ... 
<swann{ME}> so i am able to let them take charge more 
<swann{ME}> they understand my needs 
<autumn_whspr> I make the decisions, own all her posessions and am solely responsible for her care and well being
<sunao> is dom in the work area, slave at home while socially depends on the people I'm with. (Master)
<vixen{KO}> shopping & restaurants...clerks and the like...VERY DOMME
<trufriend> my son undrestands my needs sometimes more than i do!  and he's only 12
<autumn_whspr> my daughters 11, its the same here
<swann{ME}> my daughter is sub ...had a Master for a long while ...she understands and my son's have been great .. 
<trufriend> we actually had a conversation while walking around the neighbourhood this afternoon about this exact topic...
<autumn_whspr> all of my family and my boss are great that way....totally suportive
<BernieRoehl> And what were your conclusions, tru?
<autumn_whspr> woops can't type tonight
<Kilted_One> Bernie would the question be better if I asked do Doms change their mannerisms to suit the situation of hte day??
<trufriend> the biggest one is that my son shows an extrordinary amount of tolerance for all types of personalities...his comment to me initially was that he felt he was not we spoke more, he decided he is in fact quite dominant....i smiled proudly
<LrdTZ> to suite the situation at that time I think KO. I'm starting a new job in Sept and will have to change to sub part of the time.
<BernieRoehl> Yes, KO -- that's a good way of putting it.
<BernieRoehl> Speaking for myself, I'm able to stay in Dom mode a large portion of the time.  Which suits me just fine.  :-)
<Lord_Daimion> I tend not to even if I am working under someone else. All the jobs Ive been in tend to put me in a position of power and most employeers tend to respect the fact that I like to take charge. 
<BernieRoehl> However, I do adapt as needed to fit the circumstances.
<trufriend> KO, i think everyone changes their mannerisms to suit certain situations.....whether they do it contiously or not may be the question
* vixen{KO} can admit openly that there are times when KO is dealing with non-lifestyle people (the vanilla public) and his Dom gets mistaken harshly for arrogance.
<Kilted_One> well I would ahve to say that ppl get me the way they get me....I do not conciously change depending on the situation...its me all the time
<BernieRoehl> That's what I've found as well, LD.  In most situations, employees and even co-workers are eager for someone to step up and make decisions.
<trufriend> ok, so i can't spell!  
* vixen{KO} coyly grins at her Master....
<BernieRoehl> The arrogance issue is an intersting one.  Has anyone else encountered that?
<Lord_Daimion> Yes once in my last job
* Kilted_One smiles and thinks well maybe it is arrogance ;)
* vixen{KO} bites her tongue...
<trufriend> this course i just finished talked about assertiveness....and the often fine line of aggressiveness
<sarah`````> lol
* Kilted_One looks to vixen and wonders if she needs a birthing stick ;)
* vixen{KO} would prefer the bit, Master...if you see fit, of course...
<BernieRoehl> I know a number of Dommes who have had to struggle with the assertiveness/aggressiveness/arrogance issue in the workplace.
<Lord_Daimion> How did they hande it?
<BernieRoehl> In general, most people seem to be more accepting of a take-charge man than a take-charge woman.
<BernieRoehl> They learn to temper their natural tendencies, LD.  With varying degrees of success.
<vixen{KO}> unfortunately, that's true, Bernie
<swann{ME}> oh God YES 
<Kilted_One> me for sure time runs short on a contract so does my patience and I become even more aggresive/arrogant
<trufriend> Bernie, i do not consider myself a Domme by nature...but i have had a lot of difficulty dealing with the assertiveness/aggressiveness/arrogance issue in my day to day activities
<BernieRoehl> The happiest Dommes I know are the ones who are self-employed, or who run their own small businesses.
<trufriend> from controlling to bitch to always PMSing....the list goes on
<BernieRoehl> It gives them the freedom to be who they are, without anyone sitting in judgement of them.
* Kilted_One thinks that vixen might get a bit.....a bit of his mind ;)
<Lord_Daimion> thats so true Bernie
* vixen{KO} smirks
<swann{ME}> men tend to be louder when they are at work my experience...and that is difficult to take 
<vixen{KO}> for everything there is a season...a time to Dom/me and a time to step down a bit...
<trufriend> sounds like the battle of the sexes continues to sneak in still today....
<BernieRoehl> What about the issue of "carry-over"?  I know that some people (myself included, occasionally) tend to remain in Domspace for quite some time after an intense session, and it's sometimes hard to shake that.
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone else here experienced that?  And if so, how did you deal with it?
<Lord_Daimion> Yep I dont hit it very often becaus eI dont Dom often but when I do I remain in that head space for weaks. Drives me crazy sometimes.
<Lord_Daimion> The only way Ive been to come down from it is to get a very Dominant woman to bring me back down fast and hard.
<BernieRoehl> That works best for switches, I suspect.  :-)
<Lord_Daimion> heheheh yeah true
<swann{ME}> *laughing* i don't think i could order Master down 
<swann{ME}> hahahahahah 
* BernieRoehl smiles
<BernieRoehl> Anyone else have any tips for letting go of a particularly strong "Dom rush"?
* vixen{KO} points out to the M/men that W/women have the added situation of putting up with hormonal InstaDomme...not an easy feat...
<Kilted_One> I wonder if anyone can remember when they were little and growing up with their peers if they were Dom/sub then and if they are the same today?
<Lord_Daimion> meditation seems to work pretty good also to calm down the rush to some degree
* `forbidden was always Domme growing up
* jalyn laughs
<swann{ME}> i was sub ...... 
<trufriend> i put it in a box Bernie....sounds silly maybe, but the action for me really puts the dominant side on hold
<`forbidden> first thing to do everything
<swann{ME}> i always was doing things for ppl ... 
<`forbidden> and i was always leading people to follow *L*
* jalyn was always sub
<swann{ME}> i loved playing cops and robbers and getting caught so they would tie me up 
<BernieRoehl> That makes sense, tru.
<Lord_Daimion> Again I was switch as adolecent sometimes following and occasianally leading
<BernieRoehl> When I was young, I was always the one organizing games and deciding what we would do next.
* jalyn loved the threesomes with Barbie, Ken and G.I. Joe
<`forbidden> when it came to cops and robbers i was always the robber to so that i could get caught *L*
* Kilted_One was cowboys and indians and getting to tie the wench to the tree
* jalyn loved being tied up by the boys playing "kidnap"
<BernieRoehl> Some kids wanted to be Dudley Doright.  I always wanted to be Snidely Whiplash.  :-)
* vixen{KO} was also a switch...natural Domme tendencies with a rigid upbringing that forced submission...
<trufriend> my whole life has been spent as Dominant....the cover of a rather soft submissive underneath....the cover is now open and i am feeling free for once
* vixen{KO} would like to volunteer to be Nell...
<vixen{KO}> ;)
* BernieRoehl chuckles
<Lord_Daimion> its a good feeling isnt it trufriend
* Johncin wishes he was a kid again
<trufriend> it is at that Lord_Daimion
* BernieRoehl is picturing vixen as Nell
<BernieRoehl> Yes, tru -- it's nice to be able to be exactly what one wants to be.
<Opal`> maybe you have just peeled down to another layer tru
<swann{ME}> the hardest part of my life was right after my divorce ...when i had to be Domme to survive.... 
<swann{ME}> it was that i was not me 
<trufriend> Johncin, that "kid" is within You....what You need to learn, is how to let him out to play once in a while
<swann{ME}> yet it had to be that way to live 
* jalyn agrees with swann
<jalyn> very difficult indeed
<trufriend> anybody see Baby Geniuses?
* Kilted_One still is that kid...never grew up ;)
* vixen{KO} can vouch fer that
<trufriend> my "kid" is finally feeling safe to come out KO  and i like it very much
* `forbidden grows up lil by little..... but refuses to grow up completely
* vixen{KO} agrees with her sis
* trufriend smiles at vixen{KO}
* Kilted_One looks down to see if he can see tru's kid coming out of himself
<trufriend> hehe
<swann{ME}> if you see it KO Sir ....i want the rights to the story please...i could use the money 
<Kilted_One> may I ask if self confidence has any connect to domination??
<vixen{KO}> oy....seems the discussion tonite is spawning a lot of other related topics for further discussions...
<trufriend> i feel it does KO
<BernieRoehl> I think it does, KO.
<Lord_Daimion> I think it does KO for sure
<autumn_whspr> i think everyone has moments of self doubt though
<trufriend> hmmm....heart thinkers vs. brain thinkers....
<BernieRoehl> I can't imagine being an effective Dom without a healthy amount of self-confidence.
<vixen{KO}> which is which, sis?
<Kilted_One> I think that is what is reffered to as "the do'er"....
<trufriend> i know i'm a heart thinker
<trufriend> and i'm a do'er KO
<trufriend> brain thinkers tend to be more cautious, therefore not doing as much 
<Lord_Daimion> but if self confidence is one f the factors in being dominant that might impy that lack thereof results in beignsubmissive.
<vixen{KO}> seems like natural tendencies, no?
<swann{ME}> oh i disagree Lord_Daimion ... 
<trufriend> i lack self esteem, not self confidence
<Kilted_One> How many times has a Dom/me heard..."oh i'll never be able to do that"....and have thought....gee it is not that hard....just go so it?????
<swann{ME}> i think a sub must have a great deal of self confidence .. 
<swann{ME}> otherwise it would be difficult to give up control.... 
<swann{ME}> how can you give something you don't have? 
<BernieRoehl> Yes -- I've had that experience many times, KO.  In fact I've had some wonderful opportunities in life come my way simply because I had the confidence to say "yes, I can do that" rather than "gee... I'm not sure".
* jalyn agrees with Bernie
<BernieRoehl> That actually raises an interesting point...  when I mentioned this week's topic to a friend of mine (who isn't online), she reminded me of something that happened to us a while back.
<Kilted_One> do you really need to have control to give it up???....cant you simply let someone take it from you even if you are not in control???
<trufriend> i have a lot of confidence to take on something or last night <shy smile>, the confidence to stand behind my actions.....but i lack the self esteem to think what i've done is good
<BernieRoehl> We were travelling together, and we were trying to track down a friend of ours at the hotel.  She went to the desk, and asked them to locate the person.  The clerk said she was too busy, and to try again later(!)
<BernieRoehl> I went to the same clerk, asked for the same thing, and got an immediate response.
<TheWolfe> could be sexual bias 
<BernieRoehl> Could be, TW.
<TheWolfe> not Dom or sub tendencies
<Lord_Daimion> ok thats just plain rude and I dont care if im in a subbie mood or Dom mood I would have said something
<BernieRoehl> However, when we talked about it afterwards and tried to figure it out, we compared what each of us had said to the clerk.
<TheWolfe> do we expect the subs in here to agree with us on everything? seriously, I hope not
<BernieRoehl> My friend had said "Do you think you could find this person for me?", whereas I said "I'd like you to tell me what room this person is staying in.".
* vixen{KO} thinks the lifestyle would be terribly boring if that were the case, TW
<BernieRoehl> One is a request... in fact, less than a request -- it's a question that can be answered with "no".  The other is an instruction, which should be carried out.
<TheWolfe> passive & assertive Bernie
* Kilted_One thinks that certain demands are made with voice tones...unspoken and then backed up with eye contact
<TheWolfe> would you like fries with that?
<trufriend> gravy on the side...
<BernieRoehl> Yes, exactly TW.  Since then, my friend has used a more assertive approach, and she tells me it works well.
<TheWolfe> open ended or closed questions
<BernieRoehl> I agree, KO -- tone of voice, body posture, eye contact -- all of those are important.
<TheWolfe> not a good determination if one is sub or Dom
<Kilted_One> assertive or concise?? is more directly asking for a specific action..the other requires some thought to theaction required
<jalyn> the request allowes the respondant to make a desicion where the intruction did not
<BernieRoehl> That's true -- it's (theoretically) independent of D/s (which is why it worked just as well for my friend once she started doing it).
<TheWolfe> exactly
<BernieRoehl> My guess is that many Doms and Dommes find it more natural to use an assertive approach, with closed questions and specific requirements.
* vixen{KO} would agree Bernie
<Blksmith> a person with true self confidence projects this to others and recieves respect. Where as people who wear selfconfidence as a mask to cover up inadequecies tend to be treated as less important because that is the way they see themselves
<Kilted_One> closed questions tend to get better responses if one is looking for focus
<trufriend> so Blksmith, if what You say is true, i am less important
<swann{ME}> true ...i always ask my secretary if she minds doing this or that for me ...for some reason it's only with my secretary taht i am not Domme at work 
<Blksmith> only if you see yourself that way
<trufriend> i have a lot of confidence to take on something or last night <shy smile>, the confidence to stand behind my actions.....but i lack the self esteem to think what i've done is good
<BernieRoehl> I think the key phrase is "treated as" less important, Blksmith.
<swann{ME}> do you think it's more an issue of "expectations" rather than confidence or self worth? 
<BernieRoehl> People often tend to organize themselves into hierarchies, or "pecking orders".  It seems to happen spontaneously, just as it does in the animal kingdom.
<Blksmith> If you do not value yourself and your importance why should you expect others to
<trufriend> ok, where does a Dom/me place a sub/slave in that pecking order?
* vixen{KO} can identify with that tru....big difference between the confidence to put yourself out there and the esteem to verify your own justification...
<trufriend> and where does the sub/slave "feel" they are in the pecking order?
<BernieRoehl> I don't think a Dom or Domme *can* place someone in the pecking order.
* `forbidden has finally learned to do that vixen{KO}
<BernieRoehl> People can only place themselves.  It's a self-organizing system.
<BernieRoehl> And it's not necessarily a one-to-one correspondance with D/s, either.
<Kilted_One> or allow themselves to be placed Bernie??
<Kilted_One> by inaction
<swann{ME}> excuse me ...i really don't believe it's an issue of self-worth or self-esteem 
<BernieRoehl> Yes -- the "placement" happens through action or inaction on the part of the submissive.
<trufriend> i "value" myself highly Blksmith, but i may not "like" myself from time to time......i placed no value on myself, quite simply...i would not be here
<swann{ME}> i think it truly is a matter of expectations 
<swann{ME}> Dom/mes expect their requests to be obeyed... 
<BernieRoehl> An example... I've had submissives who (in terms of social pecking orders) have been very high on the scale.  In fact, it's kind of a rush to be the Dom of someone who has power/influence/whatever.
<trufriend> expect or assume swannie?
<swann{ME}> subs expect to gain "permission" for their requests 
<swann{ME}> i think both tru 
<swann{ME}> they expect and assume 
<trufriend> another fine line in life?
<Blksmith> trufriend could you clarify please?
<trufriend> which part Blksmith Sir?
<Blksmith> "i placed no value on myself , quite simply...I would not be here>?
<Lord_Daimion> I thinkshe ment if she place no value on herself
<trufriend> there was supposed to be an 'if' in front of the first i...
<BernieRoehl> That would make more sense.
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's drawing close to 10 pm...
<trufriend> if i placed no value on myself , quite simply...I would not be here
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone have anything else they'd like to add?
* Kilted_One gets out the EhBC calculator
<Lord_Daimion> Ive had friends of mine scream at me because of my submissive side and tell me I have no respect for myself because Of what I do. Its a hard blow to take sometimes, But the second that happens the Dominant side kicks in the they get a tongue lashing 
<Blksmith> ok trufriend it all is clear now
<Blksmith> thank you
* trufriend smiles
<Lord_Daimion> Ive lost some friends because of it but if they cant understand or acceptthen I dont need them
<Crop3> hello all
<trufriend> don't worry Blksmith, suicide has never entered my mind as an option in my life
<autumn_whspr> hiya Crop3
<Blksmith> good to hear
<BernieRoehl> Well, thanks everyone for another interesting discussion!
* vixen{KO} tosses KO some batteries for that she had the batteries utilized for other endeavors...
<Crop3> hello autumn
<Kilted_One> damn no additions required???....and I wanna be a bean counter tonight
<autumn_whspr> hiya
<jalyn> and thank you Bernie!
<swann{ME}> thank you Bernie *smile* 
<BernieRoehl> Feel free to keep chatting, but the formal part of the discussion is now... (checking my watch)... officially over.  :-)
* `forbidden thanks god it's 10pm
<BernieRoehl> My pleasure!
<`forbidden> hi everyone :)))))
<autumn_whspr> hi forbidden
<Blksmith> hi forbidden
<swann{ME}> hi hi A/all who entered *smile* 
* vixen{KO} smooches Bernie for his efforts tonite...
* Kilted_One thinks that this subject was a very difficult one and Bernie handled it very well....Thanks Bernie
<Lord_Daimion> brb gotta check the laundry and change
* jalyn waves as she leaves
<`Hardest> 'lo forbes
<jalyn> bbl A/all
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, vixen!
<vixen{KO}> nite jalyn
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, KO!
<BernieRoehl> I'm heading offline... still have some work to get done.  I might be on again later.
<BernieRoehl> See you all!
Session Close: Sun Aug 22 22:00:38 1999