August 22, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion
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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. We're having an open discussion tonight, with no set topic. The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> well at least the mod bot didnt take a w/e off
<becky> lol
<cdn_slave> lolol
<jewel`{F}> i may have has second thoughts about some of the things i have been asked to do, but have done them, or did my best to do them and in the end felt i was stronger for completing the task
<Kilted_One> For the record the topic is "Have you ever had second thoughts on this lifestyle"
<MistressSweets> 12oh yes i have
<MistressSweets> 12but changed my mind quick
<ethereal> not second thoughts about whether it's right for me, but definitely about whether it's worth the effort
<dana^^> ive never regretted doing the things i didnt want to... though have been a little vocal about doing them.. but i love the feeling of getting past a limit...
<dana^^> im not sure if its second thoughts really... im very secure in who i am...
<Kilted_One> what about in between partners when you are looking for another??
<jewel`{F}> perhaps more they are doubts in myself as to whether i am ready for what is being asked of me at that time
<ethereal> that's what i've had second thoughts about KO...whether or not it's worth the effort it takes to find a good match
<cdn_slave> it is definately tough finding the right One....narrows the field....but i can't go vanilla....ick!
<dana^^> perhaps its more like wondering what im really looking for ... how i can fit in to anothers life... geesh just questioning my potential
<dana^^> me neither cdn slave...
<PanheadAL> dana^^ i feel that every one has a lot to offer another person if they are open and truful with each other
<ethereal> i'm not sure about taht PanheadAL....it almost implies that any two people could be a good match...or am i misinterpreting?
<Kilted_One> that maybe true PanheadAL but do they have on offer what is wanted??
<dana^^> thats the thing... honesty... and finding someone who really does want that level of control
<PanheadAL> no ethereal what i meen is to be truful with who ever you are talking to at anytime
<ethereal> i agree with that...but that doesn't mean i have a lot to offer that particular person...they may not want/need what i have to offer
<dana^^> i thought so Kilted One...
<PanheadAL> that is why you be truth full with them KO
<Kilted_One> damn so did I dana^^ <winks>
<dana^^> smiles...
<cdn_slave> i am finding out QUICKLY that there are so many variations of limits and lifestyle choices and it makes it even harder still....so being truthful is good...but doesn't make it any easire??
<cdn_slave> and my spelling sucks...apologies all
<Kilted_One> I think we are talking about two different things here PanheadAL, being honest is a must because if you are not one party may think there is more in common than there really is but being honest in itself is only the first step, there has to be some commonality too
<dana^^> i do think that control is like anything else in a relationship... it can deepen or even lessen at times when life throws another nasty curve...
<PanheadAL> but KO if you are truthfull then that is there choice if they want to go any ferther with talking to you and finding out if you are compatable with them and they are with you
<jewel`{F}> dana^^ tis all a matter of keeping things realistic
<dana^^> exactly jewel...
<Kilted_One> as I said I agree with you PanheadAL honesty is the first step
<ethereal> i guess that depends...for some people there are certain dealbreakers...and if i don't have the ability to meet those dealbreaker issues then there's not much point in pursing compatibility
<Kilted_One> what is your idea of control may not be mine dana^^...
<Kilted_One> nods to ethereal
<PanheadAL> yep and someone that lies and throuhgs up red flags all over the place you whould realy woander to your self what is going on
<arhiannah> there are people who wouldn't know what reality in this lifestyle was if it smacked 'em upside the head....i find there are entirely TOO many people who have it all boxed up into this nice little fantasy world where periods don't happen, and bad days at work aren't to be had...
<ethereal> that's where instincts come in...
<cdn_slave> agreed KO
<dana^^> i know the level i am capable of... but its also giving as much as the Dominant wants... and that can vary over a relationship
<Kilted_One> example I may have everything to offer dana^^, but I am 20years too old for her
<ethereal> assuming age is a dealbreaker for either of you
<ethereal> if it isn't, then congrats! ;)
<Kilted_One> nods again to ethereal
<dana^^> not for me... i be ageless.. grins
<cdn_slave> lol
<ethereal> me too...'cept i like my men well seasoned
<PanheadAL> :) dana^^
<ethereal> tastier that way
<dana^^> lol
<Kilted_One> I've seen a few, Laughs
<Kilted_One> so what else leads to second thoughts
<dana^^> a relationship gone terribly wrong... smiles...
<ethereal> your own insecurities...it may have nothing to do with the other person
<jewel`{F}> the "speed" the relationship may be going at
<Kilted_One> how about your dominant/submissive wanting to go places that you dont or think are unreasonable
<MistressSweets> not finding the right match
<ethereal> getting tired of looking for the right match LOL
<dana^^> thats an excellent point jewel
<Kilted_One> you mean constant searching MistressSweets??
<PanheadAL> that is true ethereal
<cdn_slave> amen ethereal!
<Kilted_One> how so dana^^??
<Kilted_One> can you elabourate jewel`{F}
<MistressSweets> 12if one does not find the right match yes it would be
* ethereal is tired of looking and is taking the stop looking and he'll fall into your lap approach
<jewel`{F}> a dominant may try moving too fast in trying new things, pushing limits for the submissive to feel comfortable
<PanheadAL> that may work ethereal but it may not either
<MistressSweets> 12it all goes back too the same thing open honest and trust
<jewel`{F}> or too slow the submissive isn't feeling challenged
<cdn_slave> agreed jewel...that is one of my fears ..and a wrong match would certainly do that as well
<dana^^> i dont look for the right match... lol... i look for a friend... that Domly prescence... and if ideas are compatible... just know how imperfect i am.. lol...
<MistressSweets> in what one is really looking for
<Kilted_One> jewel`{F} is that not inevatable as were are not mind readers, how do you overcome this without it being an issue??
<ethereal> or a Dom/me and sub with vastly different needs in terms of play...if the top it more extreme and the bottom isn't it may make the bottom wonder if they're 'enough'
<dana^^> and responsibility and commitment too Ma'am...
<MistressSweets> i look for friends and go from there
<cdn_slave> communication and trust ?? maybe??
<jewel`{F}> KO that comes back to communication
<Kilted_One> nods to jewel`{F} and if it still continues??
<PanheadAL> there has to be a lot of communication where it is good or bad and each has to be open about what they need and want to the other
<PanheadAL> KO your remember alora?
<Kilted_One> is that a Dominant that gives you presents dana^^?? <winks>
<jewel`{F}> but if the concerns are being voiced and the speed is still too fast or too slow, could just mean the couple isn't as compatible as first thought
<MistressSweets> so true
<Kilted_One> vaguely but go on PanheadAL
<dana^^> see i dont really care about the activities... at least not to the extent that some do... a nice flogging to focus and bond is nice... or i can go to the extremes with someone i love
<jewel`{F}> in the event it is the too fast thing, personally, i would have red flags with it
<PanheadAL> she would never say what was on her mind or talk at realy any time
<dana^^> lol Sir... lol
<cdn_slave> agreed jewel good point
<Kilted_One> is the communication thing dana^^
<PanheadAL> i am not a mind reader as you said so how do you know when something is goin on in there head when they will not open up and talk to you about it when you are talking to them about things that bother you or upset you
<dana^^> exactly Sir... and just serving also...
<jewel`{F}> It isn't just a matter of being dominant, or in control, there also has to be patience and tolerance there as well
<Kilted_One> why was that PanheadAL, did she ever give any reason for the lack of communication
<PanheadAL> never
<Kilted_One> serving dana^^???
<Kilted_One> no there doesnt have to be jewel`{F} <winks>
* jewel`{F} blushes
<jewel`{F}> okay i would hope there would be some patience and tolerance
<dana^^> serving as in everyday things... kinda like the homemaker stuff with a BDSM D/s kick
<Kilted_One> isnt every dominant born with buckets of both patience and understanding????
* jewel`{F} bites her tongue
<dana^^> soooooooo hushes on that one
<dana^^> lol jewel
<Kilted_One> laughs
<ethereal> KO made a funny ;)
<daria> lol
* spankablecyn *giggles*
<Kilted_One> dont bite too hard you will draw blood
<cdn_slave> oh my lol
<dana^^> lol
<paperclip> looks like i picked a good night to join LOL
<PanheadAL> but then KO some may like that if they have a vampier fetish
<Kilted_One> why is that paperclip
<jewel`{F}> better to draw blood than to have Fyre read the log on the website and my having said something that could hurt me later
<Kilted_One> but not there own blood PanheadAL??
<dana^^> i think the confusion is just part of the healing process...
<paperclip> becuz the topic of the evening is something i'm giving great consideration to at the moment.
<PanheadAL> some will only drink there own KO
* Kilted_One gets his mirc eraser out again
<Kilted_One> do you want to elaborate paperclip or is it too private
<paperclip> well i'm not sure what to say, it's a confusing time for me right now.
<paperclip> there are many factors really.
<paperclip> is everyone waiting on me to elaborate? LOL
<Kilted_One> nods to paperclip
<paperclip> oh lol
<dana^^> smiles...
<cdn_slave> uh huh
<Kilted_One> were are being patience and understanding you see
<paperclip> well, some of it is me. i think i jumped in too fast and did too much.
<dana^^> lol
<spankablecyn> I think it is different if one is a masochist, you just are one and can't really turn that off with exception in my case with extreem illness, as far as submission 24/7 goes I did choose not to go back to that when I left my first Dom, Although I consider myself a domestic goddess I still run the household and do most of the chores only now it my choice to do so
<paperclip> another part has to do with ppl i've met.
<dana^^> i found i had an over whelming need for pain after the betrayal... i bottomed for a time but it did feel kinda selfish
<spankablecyn> Today I was not feel well so Master cooked and cared for and waited on me, That is what I adore about him that he cares for me more than his ego
<Kilted_One> mmm never considered myself as any kind of god when I have my head stuck in the toilet bowl cleaning it or when I am washing dishes...
<dana^^> smiles...
<dana^^> lol
<arhiannah> lol KO
<daria> lol
<arhiannah> you're thorough
<dana^^> Dom estic God?
<cdn_slave> lol KO
<spankablecyn> :))
<jewel`{F}> putting the Dom in DOMestic have You been KO?
<cdn_slave> lol
<Kilted_One> I have the wrong attitude!!! Now I know what the problem is I can fix it...
<arhiannah> if my SO can't get his hands dirty along side me, then there's issues...discussions that should have taken place long before the moving in part happened
<Kilted_One> been doing that all of my life jewel`{F}, there were no free rides in our house we all had to help out
<Kilted_One> actually I only like the first two parts of DOMestic...that would be DO and Me
<arhiannah> heh
<cdn_slave> that is so respectable KO, Sir
<dana^^> lolol
<paperclip> :)
<cdn_slave> lol
<PanheadAL> growing up as the only son of a irish mother you learn very young to help out and cook and clean and do things when told ( dam irish tempers)
<dana^^> paperclip... how have you been handling the second thoughts if i may ask
<Kilted_One> heyyy now wait a min there cdn_slave....I dont "prefer" to do it as I said I am no god... <winks>
* spankablecyn smiles at PanheadAL
<cdn_slave> lol@KO
<cdn_slave> whew...glad i got that straight *smiles**
<Kilted_One> good ?? dana^^
<paperclip> i'm dealing with them but i'm confused, hurt.
<paperclip> somedays i wish i hadn't ever heard of any of this crap.
<dana^^> i found i was writing novels in my journal and still feeling frustrated... talking with friends until i bored them to tears...
<PanheadAL> and the worst part spankablecyn was she was born in irland and reased there till she was 18
<dana^^> so understands that one paperclip
<paperclip> i'm finding it hard to find what i want in this lifestyle. i think the few (not all) people i have met are damaged, have baggage or something that they can't let go of. both subs and Doms. it makes things hard. like everyone feels everything to an extreme and just can't go with the flow sometimes.
<Kilted_One> actually I cant say that I can empathise at all, I have been on the emotional roller coaster but I cant say that I have blamed it on this lifestyle ....yet!!!
<paperclip> does that make any sense?
<dana^^> it does seem that only time cures... and boy do i hate that expression... grins
<daria> pc i understand and felt similar till i startedi tihnkinig that experience with him helped me grow
<spankablecyn> I am an *assertive* mother, protective and won't let anyone mess with my children. My children respect that now, when they have a problem dealing with anything from retail to medical they say...Mommy can you kick ass for me? and I get results for them
<dana^^> it does paperclip... and i have to agree... but people will always have baggage... its trying to deal with it in the positive... something i do try to do...
<daria> hehe
<daria> nod
<daria> makes us all human
<daria> and interesting
<Kilted_One> some of us have our baggage on wheels though and dont wheel it out too often
<ethereal> the qusetion is whether or not it's baggage you can live with/deal with...nobody comes without a carry on bag
<daria> yea
<dana^^> my experience with him only showed me a few more red flags to look for.. smiles...
<daria> if you cant.....next
<paperclip> yeah dana^^, i agree. i have my own baggage but i try not to let it affect the now. i'm not sure any of this has any thing to do with the lifestyle but it is certainly more pronounced to me with the ppl in it. (some i should say)
<ethereal> true dana...and that's valuable in itself
<cdn_slave> baggage comes with ALL relationships...and sometimes its the whole package that stinks?
<cdn_slave> not just the lifestyle?
<daria> but pc we cant control how others are
<paperclip> yeah
<spankablecyn> It is true that you teach people how they can treat you
<dana^^> but i do think that the dynamics of D/s and the intensity has more to do with the confusion
<Kilted_One> so paperclip if I can ask without getting to personal or emotional what is it about the situation that makes you think on everything as "crap" that you at one time saught after???
<ethereal> so true spankablecyn
<spankablecyn> submission is a gift it does not mean walk all over me
<daria> nod
* ethereal sits on her hands...gifts...again LOL
<cdn_slave> agreed spank well said
<Kilted_One> laughs I almost erased the word gift but thought better of it ethereal
<cdn_slave> lol
<dana^^> lol
<ethereal> hehe...glad i'm not the only one
<paperclip> well i was just joking about calling it crap. i meant stuff..whatever label to be put on it. i guess i'm just thinking that so far in my small amount of time in it, the ppl in the lifestyle have the same r/l probs all ppl do but it seems to have a magnifying glass over it or something. everyone seems to have an issue that's out there for everyone to see/hear about.
<girl{Jaysker}> you may be dealing with a small sample, pc.
<Jaysker{girl}> maybe people are more honest about their issues?
<paperclip> perhaps, not denying that at all.
<ethereal> i do find that people tend to be more open...and more introspective...so perhaps that's why the transparency seems so apparent
<daria> yes Jaysker{girl}
<paperclip> yes, very well could be ethereal
<daria> but that is all good
<paperclip> i'm just not used to dealing with it. i'm the type of person who thinks/says/acts. suck it up and move on.
<girl{Jaysker}> I have to say that for Jaysker and i, we've found that our communication must, necessarily, improve to be able to play well together.
<daria> people being open
<ethereal> and that's not something we're accustomed to in vanilla relations, no matter how open and honest we claim to be, it's much more direct within a D/s construct
<ethereal> directness can be hard to get used to
<girl{Jaysker}> we had a situation recently where Jaysker didn't start playing by using her codephrase - so i was left confused and unhappy about how to react.
<girl{Jaysker}> taught us that we had to communicate better.
<Jaysker{girl}> its an immediate feedback loop
<Kilted_One> mmm in nilla relationships they can go on for decades without communication, I dont think that would work in D/s.....but I think it is because we "expect more"
<daria> i am similar pc but when i started to reeemember my rape 20 yrs ago this week i got help
<daria> some need a push i gueess
<dana^^> i agree Kilted One... we also reevaluate the relationship... or should
<ethereal> ideally, yes...but i'm sure there are D/s relationships that don't have good communication too
<paperclip> i wonder how many come into the lifestyle hoping it will cover their hurt.
<daria> if someone wants to talk i will listen but directi them on
<Kilted_One> but do they last is the question ethereal
<ethereal> i think some see it as a panacea
<ethereal> which it can't be
<spankablecyn> I am sorry to hear that you were raped, daria I am happy to hear that you sought help *hug*
<daria> ya its over =)
<daria> but pt is
<ethereal> well, how many long term D/s relationships do you know of, KO? the ones i've seen have a pretty short shelf life
<daria> people sometimes cant see the logical
<jewel`{F}> i think many come in either looking for a rescuer or thinking that because they have narrowed the field down it will be easier to find a partner
<dana^^> thats the thing paperclip.. so many are looking for a quick fix to problems instead of within
<paperclip> yeah
<daria> i agree jewel`{F} some do
<girl{Jaysker}> dunno, ethereal; we've only just begun play, but we've been together ten years, and this ain't gonna get between us.
<ethereal> despite poor communication there are vanilla relationships that do go on for decades...so longevitiy isnt the issue, it's quality
<ethereal> i hope you're right, girl, and wish you the best
<daria> yes
<Kilted_One> mmmm in my circle of friends....I know 3 that have been together ever since I met them (8 years) and another 4 that are over 3 years....I guess you have to define long term in this lifestyle??
<daria> we have the same troubles vanilla do
<girl{Jaysker}> if i thought it would, we'd stop playing; our relationship is far more important than any form of play.
<daria> communication
* spankablecyn spent 10 years in her first D/s releationship and now 12years in this S/m relationship although we took a break from each other which seemed to make us a stronger bond
<ethereal> true...long term is subjective...and whether or not they started out 'nilla, as with girl and moved towards D/s
<daria> some cannot talk
<daria> how can u have a relationship
<ethereal> i guess what i'm saying, in a far from succinct way, is that I don't think D/s is a guarantee for a better relationship...if the two are willing then it can work wither it's 'nilla or D/s
<Kilted_One> I do agree that there are a lot of cyclic relationship though....as well
<dana^^> i also know couples who have enjoyed a long term relationship... i dont think D/s breakups are higher than vanilla
<paperclip> i've also learned though that sometimes just keeping one mouth shut is for the best. LOL
<girl{Jaysker}> absolutely, ethereal.
<daria> heh
<ethereal> so true paperclip...so true
<girl{Jaysker}> pc - any relationship in which keeping your mouth shut is a good option is not a good relationship.
<Kilted_One> that would apply to "life" paperclip <winks>
<spankablecyn> :)
<paperclip> sometimes we learn the hard way LOL
<daria> it depends
<Jaysker{girl}> i think the immediacity of the communication feedback loop can only lead to stronger relationships
<ethereal> i dunno...when your partner says "Do these pants make my ass look fat?" is it really so horrible to say "No dear"?
<daria> getting to the point isi good
<spankablecyn> keep in mind that the Dom is learning as well
<daria> whining isnt
<spankablecyn> lol
<daria> pity parties arent
<daria> its the same anywhere
<Kilted_One> if I were to say "Fuck you Master"....or bite my tongue....and later talk about what happened this would be an example of "keeping mum" at the right time
<ethereal> but sometimes you have to work through the emotional stuff to get to the nugget of truth that's buried in there
<_dove{S}> Sometimes it's best to bit one's tongue in the heat of the moment, and if it's still important, speak of it later
<daria> who says a partner shoould be sociall worker
<jewel`{F}> a matter of timing and making sure of the choice of ones words works well to
<dana^^> nods with dove
<paperclip> i think there's sometimes confusion when you realize you might not be what you always thought you were....i guess it still applies to life though.
<Jaysker{girl}> indeed
<girl{Jaysker}> But being open and honest doesn't mean obnoxious and rude, either.
<daria> exactlllly
<girl{Jaysker}> I didn't say you couldn't think about how you wanted to say something - merely that any relationship in which =not speaking= is a good option, is one in trouble.
<Kilted_One> nods to ethereal, the emotion is the noticable part of the issue sort of like a symptom....not the desease that has to be saught out
<daria> when that happens, and it ihas i go off on my own
<ethereal> social worker?...hmm,that's an interesting perspective...guess I see helping someone I care about work through difficulties to be an honour, not work
<spankablecyn> So true girl{Jaysker}
<ethereal> exactly KO
<daria> not the pt
<daria> you can lsten
<daria> be caring
<Jaysker{girl}> for me, being open and honest is about needing to look to bring the vulnerable part of myself, even , or especially, as a domme
<daria> sometimes u cant help
<girl{Jaysker}> daria, that's dodging it a bit; i mean that being silenced, not choosing to speak in a moment or two after listening.
<ethereal> sometimes people just need someone to listen...it doesn't mean fixingthem or their problem
<daria> lost me
<daria> that is fine
<girl{Jaysker}> i think i understood that you were saying one might "not speak" because it was better to listen - sorry if I got it wrong.
<daria> shouldnt expect them to fix it
<ethereal> i think i've lost the train of though here, sorry LOL
<dana^^> needs time after listening to process what ive learnt
<daria> nod
<spankablecyn> listening I think is better than trying to be a social worker, the answers are usually with the person with the problem not the one whom the problem is being told to in my mind
<daria> but there are people who want to be rescued
<daria> yes
<girl{Jaysker}> probably, sc - but two heads are better than one.
<ethereal> for sure...they see teh other person as the solution to their problems, and that's not realistic
<daria> sorry yes that isi what i meant
<ethereal> i hate to say it, but i find that not to be uncommon amongst fem subs in particular
<girl{Jaysker}> ooh, girl would object, if she were allowed. ;)
<daria> i wont argue i am sure it is
<spankablecyn> Many people in the vanilla world think we subs/masochists need to be rescued from this life that makes us most comfortable
<dana^^> is it hoping the Dom will solve everything or just the need to talk about it.. a soundboard?
<girl{Jaysker}> i don't think i'd be comfortable playing, if i felt it was to solve my problems.
<Kilted_One> does anyone ever have second thoughts due to thinking that what we do is sick??
<ethereal> for me, a soundboard..
<ethereal> god no
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<daria> then say can u listen
<girl{Jaysker}> i needed to be healthy in head before beginning play - i think that's why it took me so long to get into the lifestyle, after fantasising already as a kid
<paperclip> i doubt ppl doing it for that reason girl{Jaysker} even realize they're doing it for that reason.
<girl{Jaysker}> perhaps, pc.
<dana^^> nope...
<daria> its why i am not looking till i knowthisi rape issue wont be one
<ethereal> i think people seek out the lifestyle for alot of different reasons...not all of them healthy
<girl{Jaysker}> Right.
<daria> yup
<girl{Jaysker}> one of the things i'm hoping to achieve, eventually, from getting into the life is to help heal those old rapes of mine, too.
<ethereal> but that's true with any kind of relationship
<spankablecyn> I would hope my Dom to be supportive and nurturing there would be no attraction for me if he wasn't
<girl{Jaysker}> but only slowly.
<Kilted_One> I dont think that was my question though ethereal
<paperclip> i don't believe it is sick in the least Kilted_One
<ethereal> sorry, KO...i answered your question with an emphatic "god no" then went off on a tangent *sheepish grin*
<daria> laf i just wanna be submissive..luv that it is a gift i wanna give when i am ready
* ethereal blushes
<dana^^> i dont see what i do as sick... its just a healthy exploration of how i express my sensuality...
<girl{Jaysker}> there's a healing aspect, i think, possible in the...not re-enactment, but the placing of the sub in the spot where she can safely get out of it, if you see.
<maax> i've never thought of this lifestyle as being sick or twisted...however, there is the realization that most in the vanilla community sees it that way...
<girl{Jaysker}> sick=non-consensual, to me.
<dana^^> as for the D/s side... thats just where im comfortable...
<paperclip> physically i find this lifestyle safer than vanilla.
<Kilted_One> no worries ethereal thanks
<girl{Jaysker}> i live a life that is rigidly controlled, in many ways; subbing to my Jaysker is a release.
<Jaysker{girl}> we know more and think more about consent than vanilla folks ever do
<ethereal> freedom through restriction...a common theme
<ethereal> one of my favourites
<dana^^> smiles...
<Jaysker{girl}> lol
<spankablecyn> yes non-consensual is destructive
<ethereal> yes, Jaysker, it is more mindful that way
<girl{Jaysker}> exactly - since i'm not the one in control, but really i am.
<Kilted_One> a fine line that one girl{Jaysker} but it has been debated at length in here already <winks>
<girl{Jaysker}> of course.
* girl{Jaysker} blushes...prettily.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.