Ausut 20 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

DarkAngel^{sin} reminds the room ---this is discusion time,, pls refrain from the Hello ,,, Goodbyes ,, pls join in with comments/questions
<LrdThomas> there are a great many folk in the bdsm scene with ethics and integrity. the opposite is also true.... just like nilla.
<kathryn_kw> first what do we consider ethics as related to bdsm
<kathryn_kw> any ideas ?
<LrdThomas> integrity.
<kathryn_kw> ok LT just mentined one
<ravynne^> reliability
<`vixie> honesty
<kathryn_kw> integtity
<ravynne^> stability
<DarkAngel^{sin}> the first thing that comes to mindis the seperation of a HNG and a Dom/me sub who are looking for their ONE
<{autumn}_U_> respect....understanding.....
<ravynne^> trust
<kathryn_kw> rliability
<kathryn_kw> responsibility
<kathryn_kw> and not misrepresting oneself
<kathryn_kw> our abilities etc
<kathryn_kw> ok comments
<kathryn_kw> good start
<dalian> honour of right action of deed and thought towards another
<kathryn_kw> ok some examples of ethics in your own experience
<Sweetone{LT}> how about code of conduct
<kathryn_kw> without bringing personalities into it
<DarkAngel^{sin}> ok,, then there is a distinction when in or out of a relationship ?... as a single Dom has no Control/responsibility over a sub
<kathryn_kw> or problems we may have had
<LrdThomas> a code of respect among dominants... reflected in not addressing iussues with anothers slave, but rather addressing issues with the dom.
<kathryn_kw> ok one thing at a time
<Mltdwn> agreed LT
<kathryn_kw> we have a code of respect
<kathryn_kw> is that a mutual code
<kathryn_kw> as applies to a sub as well
<DarkAngel^{sin}> very good LrdThomas ,,, as I have seen some who care only for themselves,
<dalian> it should be
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I was recently told in channel to disapline my slave as she had not propperly addressed a single Dom
<kathryn_kw> ok
<Ron^`> So it is wrong when Doms aproach subs that our someone elses mate
<LrdThomas> are we referencing online ethics here? or r/l?
<Mltdwn> subs should not go to another's master or slave....and should address issues thru thier Master
<kathryn_kw> Da i hope you told him where to get off :)
<Mltdwn> r/l IMO
* DarkAngel^{sin} treats them the same
<lyxanna> may i ask a quick question
<kathryn_kw> ok Mltdwn
<kathryn_kw> good point
<lyxanna> actually 2
<kathryn_kw> k lyx go for it
<DarkAngel^{sin}> kathryn_kw,,,, my slaves duty is to myself
<kathryn_kw> exactky DA
<lyxanna> 1) what if a single submissive aproaches a "taken" Dom???
<kathryn_kw> good for you
<ravynne^> approaches in which way?
<kathryn_kw> then with respect she can be told that he is taken
<kathryn_kw> ?
<LrdThomas> that would be disrespectful of the lifestyle choices and tenets lyxanna, imo.
<lyxanna> and 2) if a single submissive has a problem with a Dom, which Dom or Master do they approach said Dom or Master?
<kathryn_kw> and cease and dissist
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<kathryn_kw> their own
<DarkAngel^{sin}> clarification ,,, aproches /chats is acceptable,,, trolling/ hitting on is not
<lyxanna> and if they don't have one kathryn?
<`vixie> what if that submissive is single?
<kathryn_kw> let their owqn master deal with it
<kathryn_kw> or their mentor
<`vixie> what if they are w/out a mentor?
* LrdThomas assumed the approach was to hit on the dom... my apologies if i miunderstood.
<kathryn_kw> or in the case of a play partry a dungeon master
<Mltdwn> good suggestions kathryn_kw
<lyxanna> well ravynne^, some here are saying a dom approaching a sub is "disrespectful" so is there not an equivalent or is there a double standard of sorts
<DarkAngel^{sin}> wasnt sure LrdThomas ,,,,, was just stating my own rules
<ravynne^> i would say so
<Mltdwn> There is no double standard....
<ravynne^> yes
<canplay> i would certainly hope if i were 'hitting' on a Dom and this was inappropriate, He would tell me in a nice manner
<kathryn_kw> a sub has every right to voice his or her concerns and ecpect them to be dealt with and listened too
<lyxanna> yes there is a double standard?
<Mltdwn> if you do not have a Master and you need an issue addressed then it needs to be addressed....
<kathryn_kw> whether they are single or in a relationship imho
<Mltdwn> whether it be a mentor...or yourself....
<ravynne^> yes that there shouldl be an equivalent
<Mltdwn> IMO it should always be one on one...and with respect on BOTH parts
<dalian> i would think it is all in the intent of the approach to the Dom...
<kathryn_kw> ok any other ideas on this aspect ?
<Sweetone{LT}> it is disrespectful of dom to approach a collared submissive with a question pertaining to the sub or relationship
<lyxanna> so if a Dom wants to play with a "taken" sub, they aproach the Dom...and if a sub wants to play with a "taken" sub......
<lyxanna> it is up to the dom???
<kathryn_kw> ok lets rry a couple of scnearios on for size
DarkAngel^{sin}> I agree dalian ,,,, I have many sub friends,,of both sexes ,,, and my sub is allowed to chat PM with her friends ,,, that is trust ,, perhaps intergrity
<kathryn_kw> they still approach the Dom/me
<kathryn_kw> DA you are a keeper !!!
<Mltdwn> exactly kathryn_kw
<LrdThomas> yup lyxanna.,
<kathryn_kw> ok. lets try some scenarios on for size
<kathryn_kw> 1)
<kathryn_kw> a " Dom/me" meets a sub.... talks a good talk
<Ron^`> I have heard of Doms that frequent this room even in this conversation taking subs from other doms. Men also steal girlfriends and wives in vanilla worlds, the subs obviously make their own decisions anyway, ethics definatly come from individuals and everyone is different.. Sometimes maybe someone thinks they can offer more or a sub is scared  to be  alone untill someone better comes along
<kathryn_kw> sounds good
<DarkAngel^{sin}> well kathryn_kw ,, if she left with anouther Dom ,,, she wasnt my ONE
<kathryn_kw> is unmarried.. has 7 years rl experience..  and wants a monogomous relationship
<kathryn_kw> things are going well
<kathryn_kw> 2 months down the road the sub finds out the dom/me is married the wife doesnt know anything about it
<kathryn_kw> the guy has very little experience etc
<kathryn_kw> whats wrong with this picture
<ravynne^> he lied
<kathryn_kw> and feel free to interchage subs and Dom/mes in this scenario
<`shado> the guy's a jerk period...bdsm or vanilla
<kathryn_kw> male and female
<LrdThomas> circumsize the bastard... hold the anesthetic. <g>
<ravynne^> he broke her trust by not telling her the truth
<Ron^`> I too want a monogomous relationship, but don`t approach subs even at munches because  I don`t know who is who
<dalian> the Dom in question is a letch for lack of a better word
<DarkAngel^{sin}> perhaps Ron^` ,,,, my own slave was invited out by a Dom in the area/group ,, but was as afriend ,, she reported this to me with the logs
<kathryn_kw> how many times have we experienced this
<ravynne^> she has every right to throttle him
<Sweetone{LT}> a) he is not a dom, b) he is not a dom or c)......<g>
<liddle> he's not a Dom<kathryn_kw> and conversely male and female subs have done the same to their dom/mes
<Sirsin> ok, going, got work to do, night
<`shado> he's not an *anything*
<kathryn_kw> and conversely male and female subs have done the same to their dom/mes
<Mltdwn> scum
<DarkAngel^{sin}> HNG
<kathryn_kw> and from people i have talked too this happens a lot
<kathryn_kw> sooo what do we do
<`shado> and it doesn't in vanilla kathryn_kw??
<LrdThomas> circumsize the bastard... hold the anesthetic. <g>
<kathryn_kw> of course it does
<Mltdwn> yummy
<kathryn_kw> but in bdsm we have a myth that we all are soooo open
<kathryn_kw> and honest and trustworthy
<kathryn_kw> yeahh right :)
<kathryn_kw> lol
<Mltdwn> it's like have to have honesty...that is one of the main ethics in BDSM and otherwise
<DarkAngel^{sin}> we ?... we of course do nothing ,,, each person in a relationship is empowered to make their own decisions
<Mltdwn> if you dont...get lost
<`shado> so what makes it happening within the realm of bdsm any different?
<LrdThomas> do?  what should we do?  nothuing.  it's none of the "communities" business.  But word will go around privately.
<kathryn_kw> ok another scenarop to think about .. Dom/me says to sub/slave
<kathryn_kw> i want you to be monogomous but i as a Dom/me am going to play with others aside from you
<kathryn_kw> comments?
<Sweetone{LT}> honesty is a lifeskill that should be brought with you into the it is in the rest of one's life
<DarkAngel^{sin}> BDSM,,, Vanilla ,,, it still takes two adults ,, to make their owninformed decision
<Mltdwn> that would depend on them...
<`shado> i want you monogomous & i'm your wife and feel like having a fling...what's the diff?
<ravynne^> how can someone commit to a non-monogomous persone how can they expect that from the sub...that's not fair
<Mltdwn> if that is how they have their relationship so beit.
<kathryn_kw> ok what if the situation is reversed
<kathryn_kw> shoe on the other foot :)
<kathryn_kw> devils advocate here :)
<Mltdwn> it may not be fair in your opinion...but that is for them to decide
<DarkAngel^{sin}> BUT...... if I had a friend ,,, who was entering into a potential relationship ,,, I would be torn ,,, as I do not like to see friends used or hurt
<`abi> that's not really a question of's a question of relationship choice
<`shado> the person has little to no standards no matter what the lifestyle and if someone thinks the ability to use a shift key on a keyboard makes them special they are nuts
<dalian> again...depends on the initial intentions of the relationship and if there is now a sudden and unexpected change to expectations
<Sweetone{LT}> there are leaches in all aspects of life...and what ethics we come up with here is not going to change or help that...perhaps there are things that we can discuss to help with conduct among those interested in ethics
<Mltdwn> exactly dalian
<`vixie> but don't relationships evolve over time kathryn_kw?
<LrdThomas> i have no problem with that kathryn... he told her uo front what life with him will be like. she is informed to make her choice.
<kathryn_kw> yes they do :)
* DarkAngel^{sin} sets no standerds for others to meet ,,,, the 2 must do so themselves
<Mltdwn> agreed LT
<kathryn_kw> these are just different things to throw out and see where they fall
<kathryn_kw>  :)
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I agree LrdThomas
<kathryn_kw> now here is one more
<Ron^`> Ultimately it depends on the strength of the relationship between the  two people
<Mltdwn> I like the idea of discussing ethical conduct and protocol in the ;lifestyle
<kathryn_kw> and this is something that goes a bit deeper
LrdThomas only has probl;ems with doms who fail to deal with all the bdsm issues with a prospective sub before collaring her. Most don't of course, and that is unethical imo.
<`abi> anyone here think they are unethical?
<kathryn_kw> a sub has a mentor or trainer or .. who has agreed to take the sub on and help them learn and grow
* DarkAngel^{sin} is unethical, preverted, sic , twisted, and a horny Bastard ,,,,,,,, but has Honour
<Mltdwn> In what way LrdThomas ?
<LrdThomas> by others standardss, some prooly judge me so abi. i don't make that assertion of myself.  unethical is not infallible tho.
<kathryn_kw> what are the ethical responsibilities of the mentor
<Ron^`> nope not me
<Mltdwn> good question kathryn_kw
<`abi> I knew there was a reason I liked you DA
<kathryn_kw> the understanding is that he is going to serve many roles
<ravynne^> to teach a sub what she needs to learn
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I keep a big part of my life very secret from my family ,, my close friends ,,,
<kathryn_kw> protetor
<{autumn}_U_> that could be viewed a million different ways kathryn
<kathryn_kw> teacher
<kathryn_kw> confidant
<`vixie> well the sub/slave has placed her/his trust in the mentor...i think that trust should be treated properly, and the welfare of the sub/slave ensured
<kathryn_kw> disiplinarian.. possible lover
<kathryn_kw> etc
<kathryn_kw> does he have responsibilities to be reliable
<ravynne^> yes
<`vixie> i think so
<DarkAngel^{sin}> but I am honest,,, and hold hoour ,,, and those who know me know this
<LrdThomas> Mltdwn, i find the gift a sub offers less than grastifying, if she makes a choice to be mine, not knoewing what life with me will be like.  That's all. I want infoirmed consent. Too many doms, either haven't decided on the bdsm lifestyle issues, or aren't sure how to identify the powers they want, or which ones they want tho.
<kathryn_kw> consistent
<Mltdwn> for sure...
<kathryn_kw> nurturing
<Mltdwn> he is thier protector...teacher...
<ravynne^> dependable
<kathryn_kw> or only see him or her at his whim
<Sweetone{LT}> a mentor is there to teach the philosophy of the lifestyle...not to play or become involved with
<`vixie> depends on your idea of what a mentor is Sweetone{LT}
<Mltdwn> Good point LT
<Mltdwn> thank you
<kathryn_kw> exactky vixie
<{autumn}_U_> being mentored was not physical for me....not sexual in any was learning and being trianed
<kathryn_kw> autumn was the training regular
<{autumn}_U_> yes.....
<kathryn_kw> consistent
<{autumn}_U_> strict....cruel at times.....had a lot of lessons to learn.....about me....the lifestyle....patience.....
<kathryn_kw> did you feel the mentor was living up to his or her responsibilities with you ?
<{autumn}_U_> yes
<LrdThomas> a mentor teaches the philosophy and committments invloved in various aspects of power exchange. he will explain the powers, what they mean and their ramifications on a subs life.  in essence, walk them through choices they want to make. Mentors should never get physically involved with a sub tho. 
<kathryn_kw> theh he was a good mentor imho
<{autumn}_U_> i agree LT
<{autumn}_U_> i was lucky kathryn
<kathryn_kw> okay another twist and turn
<`abi> a mentoring relationship is like any other ... it is whatever 2 people negotiate it to be
<kathryn_kw> :)
<{autumn}_U_> as a new sub.....i had no patience
<`shado> the term mentor means teacher....
<`vixie> very true abi
<kathryn_kw> good point abi
<`vixie> a teacher can teach many things
<`shado> if a teacher becomes *involved* they are no longer impartial
<^trufriend> LrdThomas in physically, do You mean sexually or intimately?
<Sweetone{LT}> abi...why is it that bdsm people make new meaning for words to suit their own purpose??
kathryn_kw> so the mentoring may shift to a Dom/me role
<kathryn_kw> perse
<Sweetone{LT}> a mentor is a teacher
<Sweetone{LT}> tutor
<`vixie> does a Dom/me not teach the sub/slave many things also Sweetone{LT}???
<kathryn_kw> in your own opinion Sweetone
<kathryn_kw> but its only one opinion
<kathryn_kw> true ?
<`shado> no the opinion of Miriam Webster dictionary
<kathryn_kw> what may be good for one person may be different for another
<`abi> because no one has the right to determine what anything means to an individual Sweetone ... contrary to some people's opinion ... there are no experts
<LrdThomas> both tru.  that is the historical beginnings of mentoring in the modern area, say circa post WWII.
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I am not as framiliar with a mentor role ,,, but as with any other ,, I think it a relationship defined by the participants ,, not one a 'comunity' may define
<kathryn_kw> i think its a good point DA
<^trufriend> my question is how can one Mentor or teach without a certain degree of intimacy?
<`vixie> good point tru
<kathryn_kw> some do and some doint true
<{autumn}_U_> but it has been defined communities.....each maybe having a different view.....we...all of us here together.....haven't rounded a meaning
<kathryn_kw> personally i like the intimacy
<^trufriend> this is different then sitting behind a desk in a classroom full of other students
<^trufriend> although for some that idea may be a good one
<DarkAngel^{sin}> one point of integrity ,, when I was a new Dom ,, was that a small portion of experianced Doms,,,, had THE view of BDSM ,,, and all others,, myself included were just roll playing
<{autumn}_U_> unfortunate
<{autumn}_U_> but not uncommon
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I am glad that did work for you {autumn}_U_,,,,, but might not work for the next
<kathryn_kw> their way or the wrong way ?
<^trufriend> and kathryn_kw, i _need_ the intimacy to learn from
<kathryn_kw> smile
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I only say I will not look downon either ,, unless I feel somehow it has evolved outside a Safe Sane Consentual relationship
<{autumn}_U_> i was asked a million times if i was a bedroom sub or a real i know what you mean DA
<kathryn_kw> i know the feeeling
<dalian> so do i, i'm afraid...that intimacy is very much a part of the experiences i want from my teaching on that path
<DarkAngel^{sin}> both are real {OT}cariye
<^trufriend> for the right Person, i would be a complete submissive.....for now, i guess i am a bedroom sub....<sigh>  is that ethical?
<DarkAngel^{sin}> oops,, both are real {autumn}_U_
<`vixie> why not tru?  it's your own decision
<{autumn}_U_> yes....but not always viewed as such
<kathryn_kw> yes autumn if you are honest about it
<kathryn_kw> why not ?
<{autumn}_U_> yes
<^trufriend> because it doesn't seem to be anybody regards to finding Someone for myself
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<kathryn_kw> takes time like anything else
<kathryn_kw> :)
* DarkAngel^{sin} feels his one point of pointing to a prob in our cumunity with integrity ,,, is respect for others kinks
<kathryn_kw> hang in there
<{autumn}_U_> you have to be ....forgive me tru.....true to you first.....*smile*
<kathryn_kw> right on autumn
<Ron^`> I have a question
<kathryn_kw> ok
<DarkAngel^{sin}> one only has to look at the summer virus of 'flaming' others adds
<{autumn}_U_> being mentored did teach me about to spot people who had them and those who didnt
<kathryn_kw> any other ideas that we havent hit yet
<kathryn_kw> yes ?
<^trufriend> maybe that's where i need to look then can i be true to myself
<{autumn}_U_> patience
<{autumn}_U_> it's a torture in itself sometimes
* {autumn}_U_ smiles
<{autumn}_U_> but....patience
* dalian agrees
<kathryn_kw> unfotrunately a nasty but necessary virtue i am afraid
{autumn}_U_> dont wander from your views or from what feels right for you i suppose.....dont go out of your comfort zone to please someone....
<DarkAngel^{sin}> patience,,,, uggggg ,,,, Ihave to wait till my slave can come down,,,, I hate patience
<kathryn_kw> ok any otherthoughts
<Ron^`> When I first came here a certain experienced sub  used talk to me  often and teach me about   ethics in bdsm she  said that  a confident strong Dom would sit  back wait   and watch , that  it   was not  right to aproach subs, but wait for them to notice you if you look within a community that is already established,,,is that   correct
<kathryn_kw> what about misrepresentation ?
<DarkAngel^{sin}> kathryn_kw ,,,,, respect for others kinks
<{autumn}_U_> again kathryn....time will tell
<LrdThomas> yes Ron... bang on the money.
<kathryn_kw> yupper
<kathryn_kw> tells alot
<Sweetone{LT}> yes, i agree with that Ron...speak you views
<kathryn_kw> the thing is to be involved
<kathryn_kw> in channel or munches etc
<kathryn_kw> dont lurk
<DarkAngel^{sin}> lol ,,not fair kathryn_kw
<kathryn_kw> they will assess you ove time
<kathryn_kw> lol Da
<DarkAngel^{sin}> lurkers are certainly part of the comunity
<{autumn}_U_> as they are in any community....*sigh*
<kathryn_kw> you know i am a total motormouth in channel
<^trufriend> is there a set of rules or guidelines pertaining to conduct in a BDSM relationship?
<kathryn_kw> but it helps people get to know me
<Ron^`> Damn Am I nailed as a lurker?
<kathryn_kw> who i am how i think
<DarkAngel^{sin}> many lurk to get a view,,, or see if others share theiur kink
<kathryn_kw> how i interact with others
<DarkAngel^{sin}> BUT ,,, they still must intro ,, and state age ect
<{autumn}_U_> i dont walk dark alleys at night....and i dont let myself end up in situations in bdsm that would cause the same sort of trouble potentially
<kathryn_kw> right on autumn
<{autumn}_U_> caution
<{autumn}_U_> common sense
<LrdThomas> Ron... just be consistent, do it your way... be proud of who you are, make the world a better place, and ignore detractors.  there is always someone who will take a shot at you.  But they don't nmatter.  Your happiness and that happinessextended to your sub ultimately are the judge.
<kathryn_kw> ok another one
<kathryn_kw> responsibility to ourselves , our partners and the community at large
<kathryn_kw> from an ethical persepective
* DarkAngel^{sin} met,, chatted ,, and fell in love with a non yacker - lurker
<^trufriend> let me reword that a there a "standard" set of rules or guidelines pertaining to conduct in a BDSM relationship?
<DarkAngel^{sin}> here here LrdThomas
<kathryn_kw> thoughts and comments
<dalian> i've noticed that the majority of us feel the same way about ethics...yet...there are so many that do not have the same opinion or carry it out with right there any reason why this is?
<kathryn_kw> and are we accountable
<DarkAngel^{sin}> said lurker now feels safe comming to our channels and getting to know you weird people
kathryn_kw> :) DA
<^trufriend> eth·ic (thk)
<^trufriend>   n.
<^trufriend>          1.
<^trufriend>                a.A set of principles of right conduct.
<^trufriend>                b.A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a
<^trufriend>                   craving for gain” (Gregg Easterbrook).
<kathryn_kw> ahh good point dalian
<LrdThomas> trufriend, is there a blueprint?   is that what you mean?   No... it takes more work than that.   Unless you mean rules of common decency.  Those apply.
<DarkAngel^{sin}> greed,, lust,,, desire ,,, all the regular ones
<kathryn_kw> we talk the talk but do we really walk the walk
<{autumn}_U_> the one standard we all know tru is safe sane and consensual.....however....i guess we dont get that far either without
<{autumn}_U_> hmmmmmm
<DarkAngel^{sin}> is called social skills,,, and we A/all wil meet many of varying abilities thruought our lives
<^trufriend> ok, we have talked before about the ethics of married men and women seeking 'play partners' other then their spouse.....unbeknownst to their respective spouse...
<`shado> social there's a novel concept :)
* DarkAngel^{sin} knows he can only foce his values on himself ,,,,,, and let others judge him based on theirs,,,,, One would hope he passes their review .. and be counted friend
<kathryn_kw> yes tru continue please
<LrdThomas> a professional councellor friend of mine taught me 4 basic conditions for successful relationships, from which all other conditions grow.  they are:   intimacy, affection, communication/honesty and sex.  If you have all four, you are blessed, and from which love and trust grow.  I argued with him many yrs ago, but he has proved correct.   So those are what i use.   others vary.
<{autumn}_U_> i dont find that honest tru....if the spouse is unaware.....and i dont find it open.....if someone is being misslead......i do, understand why.....i dont condone it.....its about choice.....the ones we have made and will face
<{autumn}_U_> and i dont judge
<{autumn}_U_> to each his own
<`shado> if one can't be open with their spouse...the person they promised to love & honour how can a person think they wil be totally honest with them?
<kathryn_kw> but is the partner aware of the marriage beforehand
<LrdThomas> i would ask a sub contemplating playing with a married dom whos spouse doesn't know, just how much trust one wants to place in someone proven able to lie to the most important person in their lives.
<kathryn_kw> if so they make an informed choice
<^trufriend> well, being a woman going through a divorce because my husband assumed i was having an affair with a man because of my supposed deviant desires.....i have a lot of difficulty pursuing a relationship with a married man if his wife is unaware or dissatisfied with the situation...i also have a lot of difficulty being in a relationsip of any kind if i must stay in the shadows
<{autumn}_U_> exactly LT
<LrdTZ> if your talking shado about opening up to a D/s partner or a vanilla partner they are different
<kathryn_kw> if the parther keeps it hidden there is no choice
<Ron^`> There is not much my eyes miss, but I do chose to keep to myself and learn the good and bad of other people and decide which is best for my self....Personally I think DA sick sadistic attitude is   quite inviting and wouldn`t mind chating with him
<kathryn_kw> i know tru
<kathryn_kw> big hugs
<`shado> LrdTZ...honesty has no lifestyle
<{autumn}_U_> i would too tru
<`abi> essentially....ethical is a judgement you make ... most people judge someone with the same values as them to be ethical and someone with different values to be unethical...often the only real difference is understanding
<Sweetone{LT}> why are they different LrdTZ?
<StarR{gt}> hi becky
<DarkAngel^{sin}> but `shado,,,,, I hide this part of my life from MOST of my family and friends,,,,,, does this not make me a dastard ?.. a liar ?.. a dishonest person ?
<{autumn}_U_> my theory is....never ask for trouble or heartache....there's enough going around
<^trufriend> i question the ethics of a bdsm relationship when all i seem to see is hurt, pain (not the good kind), anger.....
<{autumn}_U_> no DA.....
* DarkAngel^{sin} keeps his judgement out of other peoples relationships
<`shado> but do you hide it from the person you expect to trust you most DA?
<LrdTZ> I agree shado honestly is not a lifestyle it should be what we do with eveyone but in the vanilla world where on partner is D/s and the other is not honestly does not always exist.
<DarkAngel^{sin}> but I always question myself {autumn}_U_ .... and many times find myself wanting
<`shado> then there's no relationship LrdTZ...imho
<{autumn}_U_> i understand sure we all do......
<kathryn_kw> so are we responsible to our partners
<LrdTZ> well I don't know about that.
<{autumn}_U_> it's a sad truth
<kathryn_kw> and accountable
<{autumn}_U_> avoiding being judged
<^trufriend> i've seen more relationships in this lifestyle that have been mixed up, broken up, you name it then on Dallas, Knots Landing and all the daytime Soaps put together!
<kathryn_kw> i agree tru
* LrdThomas chuckles and thinks he's heard every rationalization there is as to why one can excuse their conduct and cheat on a spouse. But i'm open to new ideas. <g>
<DarkAngel^{sin}> it is only recently ,,,, after finding my ONE ,,, that my life has started to hold a better feeling ,,, a better self meaning
<dalian> we are responsible for all of our actions...if you are not honest then you can't expect it in return...and won't get it imho
<{autumn}_U_> i was mother and friends were great.....others i knew i couldn't share with and didnt
<kathryn_kw> but some do last and are beautiful to behold
<kathryn_kw> right on dalian
<LrdThomas> me too tru.... sickening isn't it?
<Sweetone{LT}> that is not the way a d/s relationship should be tru
<kathryn_kw> i know tru
<kathryn_kw> but worth it
<^trufriend> yes it is LrdThomas
<Mltdwn> :)
<kathryn_kw> the few
<^trufriend> very disheartening
* {autumn}_U_ smiles
<DarkAngel^{sin}> and integrity is VERY intertwined with our self meaning
<{autumn}_U_> true kathryn
<Ron^`> What about a new sub who it is obvious to others that her Dom is not  teaching and treating her right .  Would it not be right for others to step in and stop the wrongness no matter how unethical the  abusing Dom thinks style="mso-spacerun: yes">  the others intruding is unethical   I t would appear to be the right thing to do but still cause  hardship within the community
<kathryn_kw> ok we have about 8 mns left
<LrdThomas> lieing doms, needy subs to anxious for nirvana. ... thats our bdsm world. <g>
<kathryn_kw> anyonne else want to add anything?
<^trufriend> how do we know what 'should be' though Sweetone{LT}?
<DarkAngel^{sin}> in my oppinion also dalian
<{autumn}_U_> patience got me where i am even though i thought it was going to killllll
<^trufriend> if it suits you and it suits me...then it's considered ethical?  i'm not so sure about that
<kathryn_kw> Ron its 6 of one half a dozen of the other
<kathryn_kw> whats more important the safety or ???
<DarkAngel^{sin}> till you find that one tru
<kathryn_kw> and thats not just physical safety
* DarkAngel^{sin} adds HOOTERS
<DarkAngel^{sin}> evil chuckle
<kathryn_kw> its mental emotional and spiritual safety as well
<kathryn_kw> its mental emotional and spiritual safety as well
<BernieRoehl> I'm coming in late, but I have an interesting situation
<{autumn}_U_> good poing tru
<LrdThomas> Ron, why not suck it up and go to the dom and tell him to his face?
<{autumn}_U_> oops point
<kathryn_kw> phyiscal /sexual is only one part of it
<DarkAngel^{sin}> it all goes back to ,,,,,, SSC ,,, and respect for others
<kathryn_kw> k Bernie go for it
<^trufriend> but even SSC seems to have different meanings to different people DarkAngel^{sin}
<Ron^`> Good Point LT
* {autumn}_U_ listens
<`shado> respect has nothing to do with has to do with values & ethics in a person not a lifestyle
<BernieRoehl> I have a good friend who is tentatively interested in the scene.  I'm a bit concerned (okay, maybe quite concerned) that she will end up getting hurt by Doms who may be somewhat lacking in ethics.  I'm wondering how far I should go in trying to watch out for her.
<DarkAngel^{sin}> tru has god poings too
<DarkAngel^{sin}> give BernieRoehl
<kathryn_kw> Bernie you have the floor
<^trufriend> that's why i asked the there a "standard" set of rules or guidelines pertaining to conduct in a BDSM relationship?
<kathryn_kw> if she is a friend
<kathryn_kw> all the way
<{autumn}_U_> you know what Bernie?
<LrdThomas> renick to VoyeurDom Bernioe and keep an eye. <g>
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I agree shado,,, that is why I said SSc ,,,,,,, AND respect for others
<Ron^`> Bernie as far as you need to untill you feel assured
<kathryn_kw> and steer her to people you feel she can be safe with
<DarkAngel^{sin}> untill she decides on a Dom BernieRoehl ,,,,, VERY concerned and active for her ,,,,, after ,,, you must respect her chioce ,, but be supportive ,, IMHO
<LrdThomas> even if there were tru, who's gonna enforce em?
<{autumn}_U_> you can coddle a new baby....but they grow up....become strong....and eventually decide on their own for your friends....give them information and an understanding also have to let them learn sometimes
<{autumn}_U_> you can only protect someone who lets you
<{autumn}_U_> some dont listen
<{autumn}_U_> dont learn
<{autumn}_U_> even when you try
<kathryn_kw> exactly autumn
<kathryn_kw> but we do have to give it a try
<dalian> perhaps approach her about using you as a "guide"...if she is a good friend...she may appreciate this from you Bernie
<kathryn_kw> well not have too
<{autumn}_U_> sad.....but true also
<BernieRoehl> Once she's sure of her choices, I'll step back.  In the meantime... I'm still feeling a bit protective.
<DarkAngel^{sin}> I agree {autumn}_U_
<kathryn_kw> but i would rather do what i can
<kathryn_kw> and hope she will go on her own and has learned something
<{autumn}_U_> as would I Bernie
<kathryn_kw> we all learn by mistakes too
<{autumn}_U_> heck i'd protect her anyway
<DarkAngel^{sin}> good BernieRoehl,,,, keep up the good friendship duty
<kathryn_kw> but hopefully they will not be life threatening ones
<kathryn_kw> i agree autumn
<kathryn_kw> ok any last words ?
<DarkAngel^{sin}> a friend has ethical value in this our lifestyle
<LrdThomas> Bernie, for gawd sake watch out for her!!! 
<kathryn_kw> ok the discussion is offically over
<dalian> we make mistakes because they are lessons for us to be learned for a reason
<BernieRoehl> (thanks everyone for the feedback)
<kathryn_kw> feel free to continue
<{autumn}_U_> nah...that was it kath
<{autumn}_U_> lol
<dalian> excellent discuaaion kath!
<kathryn_kw> k thanks everyone
<kathryn_kw> hope it was helpful
<kathryn_kw> ?
<^trufriend> LrdThomas, i think that is what should be left up to each one of us, but a basic set of guidelines would certainly help...something to fall back on when we get out of focus
<BernieRoehl> Thanks for moderating, kathryn!