August 17, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "BDSM in your life: Integrated or Separate?". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<_dove> wb TimberWolf
* BernieRoehl settles in comfortably
<BernieRoehl> So... any opening thoughts on the subject?
<jen{SE}> i believe it is integrated and for me needs to be
<MasterGuny> mine has always been integrated since I came into it with my wife can't see it any other way
<Cassity^> for me.. my lifestyle is just that.. my lifestyle.. i hav been lucky not to have to seperate my intersts and my daily life
<jen{SE}> i can't separate who i am
<BernieRoehl> Anybody have a different experience?
<krista-F> my life is somewhat fractured
<MasterGuny> if its is seperate I have found as have the subs I have been involved with that something was missing
<jen{SE}> i qualify the statement with the integration changes over time
<_dove> i am just now learning how satisfying integration is
<BernieRoehl> In what way do you find it changes, jen?
<jen{SE}> when you start a relationship you are usually living apart, so when you see each other, nothing else gets in the way
<jen{SE}> so the D/s is front and center
<_cassie> My interests are integrated in my life on some levels, and incredibly separate on others.
<jen{SE}> when you first move in together it is still pretty front and center but evolves over time to just be part of the whole
<Skyhawk7> integration is most possible when there is a high level of trust, communication and understanding
<MasterGuny> I find from over the years that those that have not intigrated find there is always something missing for them
<krista-F> im curious as to what you are referring to as integration MasterGuny
<jen{SE}> agrees with MasterGuny
<MasterGuny> in my case it was usually married women that thought they could just do this on the side and not have it affect their married life
<derien{MG}> i would have to agree with that...i have always found that something was missing as well as we lived separate lives
<MasterGuny> emotions nilla life going to a show
<jen{SE}> but i think each partner has to be realistic in their expectations
<Symmetre> integration has never been a conscious choice for me. I am who I am ... and this is a part of me. Life is too short to spend a big chunk of it pretending to be someone else, or hiding basic parts of my personality from people who just can't deal with it
<Skyhawk7> integration entails a much deeper and richer bdsm experience
<MasterGuny> from my involvement it was unrealistic expectations and it lead to lots of broken marriages
<Cassity^> i dont have the time or the energy it takes to hide who i am and what i do
<Symmetre> takes too much energy, Cassity^ .... energy that could be spent of things that are far more fun ;)
<_dove> i can't say that i've ever hidden a side of me, but D/s was compartmentalized, outside my day-to-day activities, and i knew that wasn't enough for me
<krista-F> well i guess that just about makes me a non entity
<Cassity^> yupp for sure
<MasterGuny> in your case krista-F you have a supporting spouse but you can only take it so far
<jen{SE}> the integration depends on what each partner sees as D/s
* _dove agrees with jen{SE}
<krista-F> as many like to point out to me....over and over again
<BernieRoehl> Related to jen's point, what are some of the different forms that integration can take?
<Skyhawk7> to fully realize ones nature integration is necessary but both partners have to be realistic, flexible and use judgements
<Symmetre> one would assume partners are compatible to begin with
* jen{SE} there is never a good time to refer to the Dominant partner as Butt Head
<janizz> intergration of BD/sm into day to day life.. is that th qustion BernieRoehl?
<jen{SE}> serious, respect
<MasterGuny> it depends on were you start that growth Symmetre
<Symmetre> absolutely, MG
<BernieRoehl> Yes, jen
<jen{SE}> if you respect His wishes at all times integration occurs
<MasterGuny> I was lucky I was always Dominant and my wife and I discovered it together
<MasterGuny> others don't have that luck
<derien{MG}> IMHO if there is a D/s relationship to bloom and each wants more than just a play scene, then you definitely need to get to know eachother on other levels besides D/s ie. nilla lifestyles
<MsJeanie> still working on integrating bdsm with other parts of my life
<_dove> Integration can be small, innocuous things, oblivious to others, but we are aware of the changes
<BernieRoehl> What are some of the challenges you're running into, MsJeanie?
<jen{SE}> for us it is simple, i serve Him in day to day life, i do not do what He has said i can't, and i still look for permission for certain things
* jen{SE} for example would never take money out of accoutn without asking, or have my hair cut or changed without asking...
<Symmetre> absolutely, derien{MG} ... I guess my thought was that a couple are working from that point already ... of being compatible on the essential levels
<Skyhawk7> integration is a natural transition and it is based upon a mental "conditioning"....a mental state of awareness and acceptance of one's role
<janizz> i am hearing how the subs intergrate..i'd like to hear how the tops do it
<MasterGuny> I integrate it from speach to dress to a look
<_dove> Doesn't the Top integrate by directing the sub?
<MasterGuny> no one else has to even notice
<Cassity^> you intergrate together
<janizz> Your speech./dress/look guny or derien's?
<_dove> and involving Himself/Herself in the sub's daily activities?
<Cassity^> as you both are setting the foundation .. imo that is
<MsJeanie> as a Mistress, I found little things helped to integrate this lifestyle, eg. manicured nails, colour themes....
<slave_earl> _dove, must agree with dove
<star^dust> intregration in itself is - the blending of two things together so wouldnt it have to be both parties work to become intergated?
<MsJeanie> who is the webmaster so I may ask
<janizz> _dove..wouldnt yu explect that in any relationship..vinalla or otherwise?
<krista-F> i wear a gold handcuff style braclet my silent sign of my submission..
<Skyhawk7> a Dom integrates by being more and more involved in everyday activities as a Dominant "force" if you will....
<janizz> i tend to lean towards MsJeanie way of thinking
<_dove> janizz.... structures and roles are more defined within D/s, so the symbolism (for me at least) needs to be there more than a vanilla relationship
<janizz> _dove thank you for explaining more clearly to me..~s~
* _dove smiles....... it's still very new to me
<janizz> how does one be a dominante force for day to day activities Skyhawk7
<janizz> just a newbie too
<Skyhawk7> in each D/s relationship the partners set their parameters, structures and expectations
<janizz> isnt that called negotiations?...
<star^dust> janizz: thats what i thought
<janizz> star^dust.. im just trying to keep the conversation going..
<star^dust> for me integrationcomes naturally
<MsJeanie> my mentor sent me a copy of a list of bdsm activities which I printed out twice, and one morning when we were alone we went through the list and then exchanged our answers and discussed these likes and dislikes
<_dove> janizz... i prepare my coffee differently, because i was asked to. i hate the taste, but love the "why" behind it.
<Cass_findingHerGoodStink> excuse me
<star^dust> i know where my place is, from start to finish, it doesnt stop because i have to go to work, or grocery shopping
<star^dust> its still there
<star^dust> its every part of me
<Skyhawk7> one way janizz is simply to make the Dom an ongoing "presence" in the mind of the sub.....that she is more and more "conscious" of the Dom.....and more and more willing to accept and need the influence of the Dom
<janizz> and how do you do this Skyhawk7..when you and her/him are at work, or looking after the kids.or out with friends?
<MasterGuny> thats easy
<MasterGuny> its a look
<MasterGuny> a comment
<MasterGuny> a phone call
<Skyhawk7> by having simple little procedures or activities that remind one of the Dom
<Symmetre> isnt it a matter of the dom doing that for himself or herself, Skyhawk7?
<MasterGuny> a special hi liter
<janizz> alright...
<star^dust> my standing rule is if i have to think about something and whether its ok to do, i probably shouldnt
* derien{MG} nods to MasterGuny.....yes absolutely right
<slave_earl> wearing a collar is a good reminder that one is always in submission, 24/7/52
<_dove> It's not like that star^dust, i agree with you there. These are things that you do a little differently, to make you aware that another has control of parts of your life
<Skyhawk7> the sub might be expected to do certain activities in a certain a certain time...and feeling the presence of the Dom by doing as requested
<janizz> and what does the Top do Skyhawk7?
<Skyhawk7> subtle reminders of the willingness to serve and please another....
<Sir_StephenS> people are speaking to their relationship with their significant others when defining whether they have integrated bdsm into their lifes; presumably other social contexts are not relevant?
<star^dust> due to work, i cant be home with my Mistress as often as i'd like, but my submission doesnt end, W/we have implemented other ways to ensure that E/eachother knows and feels correctly
<jen{SE}> it is never forgetting the hierachy, all these little hints/rituals are just to remember each others place... i often question why they are so necessary???
<Skyhawk7> the Top sets the mindset.......and helps generate the willingness and need to submit
<derien{MG}> before Master and i moved in together, He had me doing certain things that i would not normally do...a reminder to me maybe? *grins*
* jen{SE} is not so senile yet that i forgot who and what i am
<Skyhawk7> a good Dom will understand that a sub must want to submit .....and that her needs and desires are being fulfilled
<MsJeanie> different schedules can pose a problem
<janizz> im just playing devils advocate with my questions
<MasterGuny> it keeps the conversation rolling janizz
<_dove> i work all over the world MsJeanie (literally). my actions are the same, no matter where i am. There are things i do that heighten my awareness
<janizz> yeah..maybe i should change my name Guny
<Skyhawk7> often it is best to have a sub set her own routines....what she knows will be most effective for her submission to her Dom
<janizz> who is the one that said...if she had to think about it she wouldnt do it...(it may have been a guy)
<star^dust> it was me
<jen{SE}> agrees with Skyhawk7, to a degree... but it has to be agreed upon and acceptable to both the D and the s
<janizz> do you have a top star^dust?
<_dove> absolutely jen *s*
<Skyhawk7> exactly jen{SE}
<star^dust> Yes i have a Mistress
<janizz> k...
<MsJeanie> dove, I live with my sub 24/7 we both know our roles however sometimes he does try to top me and then I have to remind him who is the Domme LOL
<Skyhawk7> if their is no agreement and understanding....then failure is bound to happen
<jen{SE}> and what if the D is not into the rituals? What does the s do then?
<jen{SE}> if they rely on the rituals to feed their submission?
<_dove> i understand MsJeanie - not quite the same
<_dove> jen......... from first-hand experience, they suffer and they lack something essential to them
<janizz> jen{SE}... couldnt the sub.. just do her/his own rituals?
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ janizz yesssssss
<_dove> janizz.. the mindset isn't the same
<MsJeanie> rituals should be shared together or it is like playing solitaire with one looking over your shoulder
<Skyhawk7> by talking and sharing concerns....usually a solution can be found.....
<slave_earl> janizz, would you enjoy dominating yourself?
<_dove> well said MsJeanie
<star^dust> i think its a personal thing, for me, i have my own rituals i do that are for my own submission, and then W/we have rituals that our O/our things, such as how tea is served and such
<jen{SE}> rituals are not Domination
<janizz> well, i suppose it depends on the rituals..
<krista-F> rituals have always been very comforting and soothing to me
<_cassie> doesn't it depend on the ritual and the reason for it?
<Skyhawk7> rituals can be a symbol for Domination
<star^dust> or submission
* _cassie agrees with Skyhawk7
<_dove> yes cassie, i would agree
<MsJeanie> rituals help to establish the roles in which each one performs, though
<janizz> interesting
<Skyhawk7> rituals can help with a mindset.......
<MsJeanie> agrees with Skyhawk
* jen{SE} has a problem with the mindset/headspace term
<janizz> why jen{SE}?
<_dove> Explain jen please?
<Skyhawk7> but as with any aspect of bdsm is the understanding.....the feeling....the awareness that is associated with the 'action"
<jen{SE}> they have their place in a scene but in day to day life why do i need to maintain a headspace.. i am who i am
<MsJeanie> jen{SE} what problem do you see in mindset?
<jen{SE}> mindset means someone having to bring my submissive out of me vs me just being me
<Skyhawk7> not everyone has the same needs jen{SE} .....for mindset
<jen{SE}> agrees
<_dove> Distance is often involved
<jen{SE}> i guess i see much of what is called headspace, mindspace, rituals to be fantasy vs reality, but that is just me...
<star^dust> for me its just me, not a mindset since this is the only way i can be
<MsJeanie> ok, maybe I am being selfish here, but in day to day life does not your mind wander back to your Dom/me, do you not think of ways to surprise and please, is that not a part of mindset?
<Skyhawk7> one persons fantasy could be another's life saver
<jen{SE}> yes, but that is my point, i do not need a ritual to get me to that thought
* derien{MG} nods to MsJeanie...yep all the time
<Skyhawk7> some do not need or wish any rituals....rituals could even be a turn off for some
<janizz> not sure why that is any different then vinalla
<krista-F> ahhhhhhhhhhhhh the variety of life
<_dove> well said krista
<Sir_StephenS> jen{SE}, I think most have a range of behaviours and ways of being which 'make up' who they are, and a mindset is a way to get into one side of that range
<slave_earl> wonder what the other side is?
<Skyhawk7> mindset is a useful way for one to focus...and increase an intensity......for some
<MsJeanie> janizz, I have found more open and honest people in our lifestyle than in the vanilla relationships out there
<jen{SE}> *grins* @ slave_earl yeppers i do too, get that split personality feeling if i have to switch from side to side
<janizz> oh really?.... MsJeanie?... now that is interesting
<Sir_StephenS> I guess its really a multidimensional thing slave_earl
<Symmetre> perhaps that is a result of people in this lifestyle being somewhat more self-aware, MsJeanie
<arhiannah> personally, it's enough to have that desire to please & serve...imho, if you have to "force" someone into it by setting down rituals...then the point is missed...i'd become resentful
* BernieRoehl has found the same thing, MsJeanie
<slave_earl> arhiannah, well said
<Skyhawk7> if rituals are a forced behaviour....then they are counterproductive.....arhiannah
<_dove> i don't flip from side to side, i am who i am. i like the subtle reminders that i am asked to do, it doesn't change me in any way, but makes me aware that i have Another to think of
<janizz> is that because we keep and "eye" out for each other more then in vinalla?
<arhiannah> that's my point Skyhawk...
<MasterGuny> what about intigration
<MasterGuny> however its spelled LOL
<MsJeanie> Symmetre, if there is not honesty in this lifestyle nothing can progress past fantasy, after all what we do is consnsual, in vanilla without consent it is called abuse
<Skyhawk7> but for some rituals are a comforting ...easy way to get to a state ...for others it is not.....
* jen{SE} has found relationships to relationships, good and bad in both worlds
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps, janizz
<janizz> i agree with jen{SE}
<arhiannah> i want to share & grow...not be someone's puppet
<_dove> Agreed, arhiannah, that can be a fine line drawn *s*
<Symmetre> share and grow by .... cleaning and cooking? *wink wink*
<MsJeanie> arhiannah, no need to be a puppet
<Skyhawk7> if you feel like a puppet ....then the relationship is not right for you .....arhiannah
<BernieRoehl> Certainly people in the lifestyle tend to be more open about their sexual/emotional needs, since it's difficult to get them met otherwise
<arhiannah> probably why i'm single
<janizz> yes, i will agree with that BernieRoehl
<star^dust> agreed BernieRoehl, and it seems to me, most people in this lifestyle are much more aware of what their wants, needs, limits and desires are
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, that is just exhibitionism BernieRoehl
* BernieRoehl smiles
<janizz> i think also,it depeonds on the experience of the top / bottom... that helps/hinders a relationship
<Skyhawk7> just have not met the right one as of yet.....know yourself ...and be who you are .....the rest will come.....when it is intended
<BernieRoehl> And yes -- I think we are more aware of our needs. In fact, some people enter the lifestyle because they've discovered (or finally acknowledged) what their needs are
<jen{SE}> *coughs*, and *sputters*, hmmm, how many 20 year D/s relationships do we know off, if they are so open and honest???
<`abi> lots jen ... but it's kind of like dog years ;)
<_dove> lol abi
<jen{SE}> :-)
<MsJeanie> <<<<was a sub, realized I was in the wrong role, used that experience to never do to another what I hated being done to me
<Skyhawk7> have we lost focus on our topic?
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with Skyhawk7
<Sir_StephenS> hmm...I thought we were not supposed to ask those sort of questions jen{SE}
<Sir_StephenS> (just kidding)
<BernieRoehl> So, gently nudging us back on topic...
<janizz> BernieRoehl.... may i hear Yuor thoughts on intergration
<MsJeanie> jen, have many friends who have been in this bdsm lifestyle for 20+ years, they are still growing closer together
<BernieRoehl> I find that for me, it has varied a lot
<janizz> can you give examples BernieRoehl
<BernieRoehl> It depends to a large extent on the individuals involved, and the dynamics that "work" for that particular relationship. It can even change over time, within the context of a given relationship
<Skyhawk7> I like PE.........and I have enjoy knowing that I have influence in the real world .....not just in a bedroom
<Sir_StephenS> I am still curious to know how important it is to have others "bare witness" to their d/s sides in order to make it more real
<BernieRoehl> The degree of integration, and the way that integration is expressed, is different from couple to couple
<MsJeanie> very true BernieRoehl, each couple has different attributes that they bring into their relationship
<Skyhawk7> others do not have to witness it.......that is not a priority of Mine.....but I do like to have an extended influence....smiles
<jen{SE}> define bare witness, i don't believe anyone needs to know what happens in my bedroom or dungeon *smiles*, but i will not stop getting up to server SE in public
<BernieRoehl> Yes, and it's the combination of those attributes that define how those two people interact
<janizz> Sir_StephenS, for me, my family knows, most of my co-workers know..and some vinalla freinds...its not that i need to bear witness..its just who i you know how girls like to chat
<jen{SE}> oops serve even (has spent to much time with the servers at work due to the power problems)
<MsJeanie> jen, there are ways to serve one's other in public without humiliation *smiles*
<janizz> i dont broadcast it, but i dont hide it either
<Sir_StephenS> I was thinking some would require validation of their activities; it would be completely normal (or vanilla) if they did
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, ahh, but what i see as normal some see as humilation
<_dove> What i do differently during the day (at work) is completely oblivious to anyone else, even if they knew i was sub
<_dove> It's done for *me*, a reassurance, a confirmation - i don't know what you want to call it
<Skyhawk7> I think it is stimulating to experience PE in public places....others do not have to be aware of what is happening.....that is not the is the feeling of D/s between the two that matters
<_dove> The beauty is it doesn't have to work for others, it works for me
<jen{SE}> agrees
* _dove agrees with Skyhawk
<slave_earl> _dove, yes you can integrate the lifestyle into everything you do with out even your closest co-worker ever suspecting
<janizz> _dove, i call everyone Sir or Ma'am..when they say oh call me dave or jill..i reply..its my trainning....they normally think its my upbringing
<jen{SE}> i always come back to some of the oldest words that are respected and understood in all worlds, i choose to Love, Honour and Respect SE...
<_dove> i do, slave_earl, i have for a long time - it has made me stronger
<jen{SE}> so makes intergration very easy
<MsJeanie> Skyhawk7, I agree, it is very stimulating in public even if others are not aware that you are being served
<Skyhawk7> it doesn't matter what others know or is a personal dynamic between.....D/s
* _dove smiles
<MsJeanie> jen, without LOVE, HONOUR and RESPECT there is nothing, then it is not sicere and can never work
<Skyhawk7> of is stimulating at times.....if others do know too.....that can help solidify and strengthen the dynamism......grins
<jen{SE}> agrees MsJeanie
<Skyhawk7> I agree MsJeanie
<_dove> No two relationship are exactly the same, therefore the stimulants and dynamics that work for each relationship are by definition different.
<Skyhawk7> good point dove...smiles
<BernieRoehl> That's almost a good note to end on, even thought we have a few minutes left
<_dove> Good thing W/we don't all have to fit in the same mold....... it would have cracked ages ago
<MsJeanie> skyhawk7, the first few times my sub tried to serve me in public I was embarrassed and afraid others would notice, but in his own subtle ways he was able to please me without losing face
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
* BernieRoehl pats ModBot on the head
* _cassie sneaks out
<Skyhawk7> discretion and finesse are fine arts MsJeanie
<_dove> lol
<janizz> thanks for the convo
<`TimberWolf> did we have a convo?
<`TimberWolf> lol
<Sir_StephenS> not to be negative, but getting back to the lack of the 20 year wonder why that is, and if it indicates how integrated most of us really are
<MasterGuny> my family expects it they think Im just spoiled
<_dove> SirStephenS........ those 20-year relationships probably exist, doesn't mean they have to be public about it
<BernieRoehl> I think there's a lot that's needed to make a relationship last
<derien{MG}> but You are spoiled Master LOL *wink*
<Sir_StephenS> yes, agreed very much so dove; maybe thats the secret
<Skyhawk7> many in bdsm have no need to go public
<BernieRoehl> We've identified some of those things... honesty and communication were mentioned earlier. They're necessary, but not enough by themselves.
<jen{SE}> and many may not look like what is an traditional D/s relationship, because of the intergration
<_dove> From what i have learned, this lifestyle was underground 20 years ago
<Johncin> longer than that dove
<Sir_StephenS> yes, I see...those who have truly integrated themselves are mostly unknown to us
<Skyhawk7> quite likely Sir_StephenS
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, plus age plays a factore, my 44 year old knees can't handle crawling across the floor and up the stairs every night anymore
<janizz> im with you jen{SE}
<MsJeanie> dove, most vanillalanders are afraid of bdsm because they only view us as savages who want to hurt others, in my small way I try to educate the ones who ask me
<_dove> nods.......
<jen{SE}> nods too
* BernieRoehl adds a nod as well
* jewel`{F} thinkss that June Cleaver was the perfect subbie
* BernieRoehl agrees with jewel
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<krista-F> i am june cleaver