August 15, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "The Journal as a Communications Tool". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> what does the acronym stand for
<ethereal> ontario safe call network?
<sub2MsKatherine> I believe that Journals are a good training tool for the Dominant to keep track of what is going thru the submissive's mind to train and teach them better
<serra^angel> i have never kept a regular journal, but it is something that i would like to start doing.
<sub2MsKatherine> They can be used by the Dominant to better understand the submissive
<lil_daria> I have and have turned it into a book about a submissive and 3 of her matriarchs
<lil_daria> It is called Matriarchal Mew
<catsbrat{CM}> some can write their feelings on paper better than they could verbalize it
<lil_daria> I have found it very useful in helping me to reach where i am now
<croppedbum> My Dom's position is that if there something I want to communicate to him I should, face to face, he feels that he should not have to read it, he is big on communication
<sub2MsKatherine> I found it to be more useful for my Dominant to be aware of my inner self feeling's as well as needs and wants
<ethereal> communication is always important...writing thoughts down is one way to communicate it
<serra^angel> but isn't there times or situations, that it's almost impolite to say face to face, that in writting you can get those feelings out of your system?
<ethereal> for some people it's easier to accurately depict their thoughts on paper than gives time for reflection
<lil_daria> nod
<sub2MsKatherine> and for some Dominant's you are not allowed to speak unless spoken to
<croppedbum> I suppose because we have been together for 13 years, that might make a difference
<sub2MsKatherine> and must never look them in their eyes
<Kilted_One> so there is no one who keeps a journal for the main purpose of reflecting many months or years afterwards??
<croppedbum> Body language can speak volumes
<lil_daria> I do that
<ethereal> that may make a difference...or you may be exceptionally good at expressing yourself verbally
<lil_daria> Kilted one that is
<sub2MsKatherine> this way a Journal is one way for a submissive to express themselves then without disobeying the Dominant and their wishes
<ethereal> KO, i tried keeping a journal for a while when I was younger...found it wasn't the best way for me to reflect
<catsbrat{CM}> i have done that and found that i have come a long way since i first started
<croppedbum> No Sir, we do not keep a journal, we collectively reflect back on our experiences
<dana^^> finds that writing in a journal can help sort out what you are feeling...
<lil_daria> agreed catsbrat{CM}
<DarkAngel^{a}> Hello all
<sub2MsKatherine> I keep a Journal for my Mistress which i must hand over to her once a week so she can reflect which i have written down for her to read
<DarkAngel^{a}> oops ,,,, lol
<catsbrat{CM}> it helped me realize that i have made progress
<lil_daria> Also you can go back and read what was an issue prior and feel great about the growth.
<sub2MsKatherine> true lil_daria
<ethereal> so are journals just for bottoms, or are there tops who keep journals as well?
<ethereal> if so, what is the purpose of the journal?
<sub2MsKatherine> I believe it can be a good tool for both Tops and also bottoms
<sub2MsKatherine> for the Top to reflect on training that they can work on themselves and even reflect
<lil_daria> I will never top but i would think it would be good to keep track of what happens and what is useful.
<Kilted_One> I keep a jounal at work and it is only kept so that I can remember things that happened months before
<Kilted_One> I keep on line notes I also counter sign the slaves journal and add my own notes too it
<sub2MsKatherine> I feel Journals are a good Tool for all to learn from and reflect as we all grow within this lifestyle to learn from are experience's
<catsbrat{CM}> i have a punishment journal
<ethereal> is there ever any concern about your journal being used against you?
<dana^^> may i ask how you use that catsbrat?
<sub2MsKatherine> just like the Bot taking notes ofthis chat so we can all go back and reflect on the discussions of past weeks
<sub2MsKatherine> same principle of a journal within Tops and bottoms in this lifestyle
<sub2MsKatherine> it allows us to learn more as we grow
<catsbrat{CM}> whenever i break one of O/our rules i put it in the journal with what punishment CM deems appropriate........i use this to remember the consequences of my action
<lil_daria> Well the top I was with has a journal and made many notes this weekend with me. We got into trouble and I couldn't say my safe word. Notes were made.
<dana^^> thank you catsbrat... was curious if you commented on feelings... the whys and hows
<lil_daria> that top also talked to two other tops referred by me and made more notes.
<catsbrat{CM}> no just the infraction and the punishment for the infraction
<lil_daria> So it isn't just for reflection.
<ethereal> forgive me for being daft, but what was the purpose of those notes, lil_daria? to prevent it from happening again?
<lil_daria> Yes
<ethereal> thank you
<lil_daria> np =)
<sub2MsKatherine> the only problem those with those notes is that if you ever leave your Dominant and find a new one....all Dominants have differant rules and regulatiions for their submissives
<sub2MsKatherine> but if a Journal was inforced within the lifestyle...the Dominants could reflect on the submissive's training by looking thru their journals
<lil_daria> It would in my eyes seem important to make notes on ea sub you play with.
<sub2MsKatherine> and then be able to use that to their advantages
<lil_daria> Before you play you can re read what you wrote to see what limits you might push or what doesn't work or should be done to keep her safe.
<sub2MsKatherine> true lil_daria
<sub2MsKatherine> it could have anything in it from Medical to scenes...etc.etc
<lil_daria> I am not saying it should replace communication but let me tell you we made notes this weekend. Our scene could have went very bad. We both learned a great deal.
<lil_daria> Not only that.
<ethereal> i'm glad you're ok lil_daria...must have been scarey
<lil_daria> But it helped to write down how we felt.
<lil_daria> Then we talked to ea other and to other subs/doms.
<lil_daria> It was.
<lil_daria> I couldn't breathe.
<dana^^> i think any form of communication is great...
<lil_daria> You know I hope the notes will also help this top have good safe play with others. Top is new and I introduced the lifestyle this week.
<lil_daria> I think journals are great.
<sub2MsKatherine> and Journals can also be a good form of information for those submissive going to see a Dominant, but the Ontario Safe Call Network can use the info prior to the meeting for safety purposes
<ethereal> how so, sub2MsK?
<dana^^> im not sure how that would be useful
<lil_daria> I am not comfortable with that idea but others might be.
<sub2MsKatherine> They can use the info prior to the meeting to help in protecting the submissive as in A/S/L and anything else that the submissive happens to write down for safety purposes within the journal
<Kilted_One> wait a sec here lets not get carried tooo far away here "using a journal in the Safe call network:???? a journal is an account of "one" persons feelings of what they experienced it should in no way be connected to safe calls
<Kilted_One> as the old saying goes "there are two sides to every least two"
<sub2MsKatherine> True KO, but some of the info can also be a protection appartus for those as well
<croppedbum> I know a Dom who's Journal was used against him in his divorce proceedings
<dana^^> is rather private lady... giving personal information to the network is one thing but my inner thoughts and feelings
<dana^^> ?
<ethereal> i agree, Kilted One...but that does bring me back to a question i had earlier...does anyone ever worry that their journal will be used against them...i mean outside the realm of a committed relationship...i can see all sorts of potential for abuse
<lil_daria> same dana^^
<ethereal> croppedbum, that's what i'm trying to get at
<dana^^> has heard of that too cropped
<sub2MsKatherine> true can be by those in the vanialla world
<lil_daria> I won't play with anyone I am not friends with for 6 months and whom I know friends if theeirs.
<sub2MsKatherine> seeking to slander or hurt those in this lifestyle
<lil_daria> If the journal is only used by yourself i see no issue.
<Kilted_One> it is no better that the romours that go around sub2MsKatherine, until it is verified. using a journal is that manner is asking for trouble all round and would sour the real intent of keeping one
<lil_daria> You could also only be refferred by a nick
<lil_daria> in these journals.
<lil_daria> My journal is for me =)
<sub2MsKatherine> that is a good form of never use your real name so those that don't know of you can never use it against you then
<ethereal> not sure that would hold up in a court of law...but it's a small safeguard
<ethereal> very small
<catsbrat{CM}> i have two is my personal one for my eyes only and one is for my Dom to read when W/we are able to get together
<sub2MsKatherine> true
<lil_daria> I am confuse ethereal can yo u clarify under wich circumstances a personal journal can be used against u
<dana^^> the same manner as any diary lil daria
<sub2MsKatherine> We have 2 Journals that my Mistress only reads and her's that is never read....not even by myself
<ethereal> the example croppedbum gave is one...divorce proceedings...child custody proceedings where one parent tries to prove the other unfit due to their proclivities
<lil_daria> That confuses me call it ignorance on my part
<croppedbum> I think of it this way, if I croak, Do I want my family while going through my things to read about my private life? ummmmm noooooo *giggle*
<lil_daria> How do they obtain or know about your journal?
<ethereal> you mean your dominant doesn't have access to your journal?
<ethereal> i thought you said he did
<ethereal> unless you keep it in a safety deposit box under lock and key it's accessible
<sub2MsKatherine> My Dominant has access to my journal....I'm not allowed to read Her's
<lil_daria> I helped my top keep an up to date medical/safety record/journal
<lil_daria> When we stop playing it gets burned.
<ethereal> in most cases abuse won't occur...but sometimes people do strange things in exceptional circumstances
<croppedbum> <---------destroyed 10 disks of "my journey" and don't regret it
<lil_daria> Mine are feelings etc.
<ethereal> then how will you use it to go back and reflect on past experiences?
<lil_daria> Mine I will not
<ethereal> not trying to be a stick in the mud....just pointing out one possibility
<lil_daria> The top's journal will be destroyed when we stop playing.
<lil_daria> It is for reference when we play.
<ethereal> what if the top decides he wants to keep his journal?
<ethereal> surely he can decide what happens to his journal
<lil_daria> We discussed this when we began play.
* ethereal should probably change her name to devil's advocate ;)
<lil_daria> It was decided then.
<lil_daria> No i understand.
<lil_daria> When friday happened we realized the necessity for it.
<lil_daria> Oh where are details discussed.
<lil_daria> For us anyway.
<ethereal> and that is a great reason to keep a journal
<lil_daria> Let me give an example.
<lil_daria> Subx is prone to blah blah..I will make sure to do this now on.
<lil_daria> one example
<lil_daria> Sub x needs to have this..
<lil_daria> two examples
* veg_witch records remember, to communicate, to help me work through things I'm thinking about
<lil_daria> Not omg she did this and then we did..
<ethereal> LOL...yes, i see what you mean
<lil_daria> ok I am not always good at getting points across...forgive me.
<ethereal> np
<sub2MsKatherine> otherwards a detailed discription of the scene for your thoughts and furture referances then
<lil_daria> yes
<catsbrat{CM}> my journal helps me get things off my things that have happened in my day that pissed me off
<ethereal> does anyone use online journals or blogs? just curious
<cdn_slave> hi A/all
<lil_daria> Not me.
<croppedbum> Is that a journal or notes on a subs nay or yay list?
<sub2MsKatherine> mine helps me to explain my true feelings, especially when were in a D/s relationship with kids
<lil_daria> I had a stalker once that got access to my pc thru a trojan.
<shadoe> how do you mean "use"?
<serra^angel> i have a online journal.
<lil_daria> I do not do that anymore.
<ethereal> now that would be scary lil_daria
<lil_daria> It would be safe witih firewalls and such but I cannot now.
<dana^^> would caution that anything on a harddrive or online can be accessed...
<lil_daria> nod
<shadoe> i have an online journal
<sub2MsKatherine> Both MistressKatherine and myself use a computer program called the Dominant
<shadoe> you do? how does it work?
<sub2MsKatherine> it allows us to keep are journals and have them encrypted
<serra^angel> but the thing with an online journal
<serra^angel> is no one knows who owns it..
<croppedbum> anyone can google your nick and this conversation will pop up as well as anything else on line that you have contributed to, but a journal is a personal thing
<dana^^> my daughter still thinks i can read her mind... thank you keypress logger... grins
<lil_daria> My personal journal is now a fictional book i write. SOme is based on real and some created. Who knows which. That ishow i started to get my feelings sorted and now its grown to something cool heh.
<sub2MsKatherine> i can only go into my account as a submissive, but allows her to enter both accounts thru her's
<Seville{s}> encryted abstract
<ethereal> keloggers are kewl...when used for good, not evil ;)
<sub2MsKatherine> true
<lil_daria> Well you have to do whatyouhave to do to be comfortable with who you are becoming
<shadoe> keyloggers?
<dana^^> <=== evil mom... grins all proud like
<Kilted_One> bit like having the good bits in Playboy fuzzed out huh Seville{s}??
<lil_daria> hahah
<dana^^> programs you can load onto the harddrive.. they capture and log anything that is typed...
<Seville{s}> you know it KO
<sub2MsKatherine> thru this program, she has my daily chores all planned out and i must obide by them or face the punishment slated for each chore on the program
<lil_daria> I have a 25 year journal as well.
<lil_daria> That is neat to look back on. I don't write down anything "specific"
<kimochi> what is the point of an encrypted journal?
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> evening all
<lil_daria> Maybe iam too paranoid.
<veg_witch> does anyone use journals to record the stuff that's hard to talk about?
<lil_daria> Kind of
<lil_daria> I write music
<Seville{s}> the point is kimochi is that once we figure out it's you we get to tie you up in ythe dining room
<lil_daria> Again my feelings are hidden in a song.
<dana^^> i do veg witch... its a way to sort out restless feelings... things that im not sure of...
<shadoe> hey hey ShadowFyr
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> hey hey shadoe *g*
<Seville{s}> heySF
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> hello my are you?
* veg_witch nods to dana .. I sometimes find that writing about something helps me to sort it out
<dana^^> venting is good too... lol
<sub2MsKatherine> well with them being encryted, unless your using that program and know the passwords, you can never read them unless you are extremely good at figuring out the encrytion of the letter or journals within the program
<kimochi> then i like encrypted journals a lot
<kimochi> in fact, i'd like two please
<shadoe> i think i have an issue with the keyboard thingy
<veg_witch> too... when I use a pen, I don't get to 'edit'
<dana^^> so true veg witch... there are times when i just feel restless.. unsure why... so writing slowly brings things into focus
<sub2MsKatherine> even with the post's on the ehbc mailing list
<lil_daria> =)
<LadyNichola> a journal (top or bottom) can be a tool of introspection as well as extrospection
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> there you are my pet
<sub2MsKatherine> if they wanted to encryt them they could with only member's knowing the process to it
<shadoe> rayn.. welcome
<dana^^> lolol... yup yup yup... has a major pen/paper comfort zone... strange for a programmer... lol
<kimochi> i think i'd pick pig latin
<sub2MsKatherine> this way no one can then cause any problems
<LadyNichola> the virtue (perhaps) is that it forces one to articulate feelings
<LadyNichola> and perhaps understand them better
<kimochi> i like bath times for that
<veg_witch> I don't think it's so strange dana...I find that it's quite a different process ... I do some journalling using the computer, but for a different purpose
<lil_daria> Nod like I said I would not be near as happy now if i hadn't written one.
<sub2MsKatherine> just like the program we use for our one will ever see them unless they know the encrytion of the files and the passwords we both use
<LadyNichola> so there's that whole "topping from the bottom thing.. where a sub can communicate to her Mistress
<veg_witch> if I can't edit, what get's recorded is much rawer ... and more likely to be what is real rather than what I'd like it to be
<shadoe> huh? from a journal we get accused of topping?
<sub2MsKatherine> that is where i think your wrong there ma'am
<LadyNichola> but perhaps another value is in the (at the risk of sounding granola) communicating with oneself
<LadyNichola> you don't need a journal for that shadoe
<sub2MsKatherine> Journals can be used as a great teaching tool for both the Dominant and the submissive's alike
<shadoe> but we are talking about journals
<dana^^> i also love the idea of curling up in a comfy chair ... pen/paper in hand... and focusing on an issue or feeling
* rayn[SF] agrees.. One can look back over the journals.. past ones.. and see how one has grown over time
<kimochi> i find it taxing, dana
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> i think journals are a very good idea..and great for self-relection as well
<sub2MsKatherine> true
<kimochi> in a busy day, it's one more thing to get done
<LadyNichola> (thinks.. gods there's a lot of shado/e/ws in here)
<dana^^> <== doesnt write every day... grins and blushes
<LadyNichola> better get it straight which one I'm insulting
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> lol LadyNichola
<lil_daria> If you had to write every day I would think it would become forced writing'
<Seville{s}> all shadows are black I say
<LadyNichola> writing is simple
* Kilted_One turns up the spot lights and the limelights
* rayn[SF] grins at Seville{s}
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> lol Seville{s}
<LadyNichola> take a blank sheet of paper
<LadyNichola> open your veins
<shadoe> if you view the journal as a chore.. then it will be so
<LadyNichola> and begin
<veg_witch> I don't agree daria...I think that sometimes writing because it is a requirement produces some valuable stuff that otherwise would never see the light of day
<rayn[SF]> yes I agree shado
<rayn[SF]> eek
<rayn[SF]> shadoe
<shadoe> if you view the journal as a part of yourself.. it will be an extention of that
<dana^^> sometimes i just write random thoughts... other times pages and pages... lol
<lil_daria> perhaps
<LadyNichola> (not my line... a quote)
<kimochi> still, in a busy day, it's another thing to do
<veg_witch> "I have nothing to write about" generally isn't true
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> and journals are good for submissives and Dominants alike I feel
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<lil_daria> I have tried that method. I got nothing to say i got nothing tosay.
<shadoe> if it is an extention of yourself.. then what needs to be said will be said
<lil_daria> May as well describe my cat.
<LadyNichola> no doubt Shadowfyr
<sub2MsKatherine> true ShadowFyr
<cdn_slave> i think that once you start writing just pours out of you!!
<sub2MsKatherine> true
<Kilted_One> wasnt the person who said that in a sanctum at the time LadyNichola??
<shadoe> and the days that you can't get to the journal, you will feel a real angst about it.. not because of the obligation, but because of what the writing does for you
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> often when it doesn't pour out or at least something come out, is it because we are afraid of what we may learn? Just curious
<LadyNichola> maybe KO
<sub2MsKatherine> it's a good way to keep track of your Journey's as a Dominant or even a submissive
<LadyNichola> but writing as an act
<LadyNichola> is a vanity of sorts
<kimochi> i've felt that, shadoe, and it's come full circle for me
<dana^^> thats a great question ShadowFyr
<LadyNichola> narcissistic
<sub2MsKatherine> and a good sense of teachings
<LadyNichola> and probably not very sane at that
<sub2MsKatherine> to be better at learning from your experience's
<rayn[SF]> i wonder how many ppl just write what they feel like will go over well with the other person reading it.. and hold things back to not bring up issues.. or feel they might get introuble? (and this might of already come up)
<Seville{s}> I think I'm going to blogspot right now and setting up a journal
<Seville{s}> then you can all see what I think
<LadyNichola> but recording ones feelings can be a "message in a bottle" to oneself or others
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> I am in the process of setting up a blog on my site..just figuring out how to use it lol
<shadoe> this is a scary thought
<veg_witch> good point rayn[SF] ... it's sometimes difficult not to 'edit' ... it has been said that there is as much to be learned from what I don't write as from what I do write
<kimochi> i definitely have felt that, rayn - the only time i haven't is when i've written in a journal that i know only i see
<rayn[SF]> that would be my own concern
<rayn[SF]> that I would leave things out.. because of upsetting Shadow
<kimochi> a shared journal is qualitatively different for me than a completely private journal is
<rayn[SF]> which is NOT what it should be about
<veg_witch> which is why I keep two kimochi
<LadyNichola> hmm
<shadoe> i just write what i want in my journal
<LadyNichola> veg witch
<shadoe> sometimes Himself kvetches
<LadyNichola> that is like double entry book keeping
<shadoe> sometimes Lady N kvetches
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> lol
<sub2MsKatherine> true Ma'am....but wouldn't you rather pass on your teaching's and belief's to other's in your writing's or just bottle them up for it to completely die away
<shadoe> *shrugs*.. but i'm who i am .. and i write who i am
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> that is the best way shadoe
<LadyNichola> A journal.. a single one. Is a way of decompartmentalizing
* rayn[SF] needs to be more like shadoe
<ShadowFyr[r]`{m}> in my humble opinion
<LadyNichola> putting down a single thread that is your identity
<Seville{s}> looking over at rayn
<kimochi> perhaps i ought to have tried harder when i was keeping one
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Seville{s}> more like shadoe