August 14, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Protocol". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<Kilted_One> so what is the protocol for starting a discussion on protocol
<^dana> lol
<paperclip[B]> lol
<_dove> Silence it seems
<paperclip[B]> well, how many here practice or enjoy protocol?
<jen{SE}> well silence is a protocal
<_dove> Yes it is jen, I meant it in jest though *s*
<jen{SE}> i know, just jesting back
* jewel`{F} raises her hand to paperclip[B]'s question
<paperclip[B]> do you think there are activities that are universally known as being protocol?
<jen{SE}> half raises my hand
* paperclip[B] 's just throwing out ideas til someone bites LOL
<paperclip[B]> yes jewel`{F}?
<jewel`{F}> lol
<paperclip[B]> hehe
<Kilted_One> doesnt that have to be consentual paperclip[B]??
<paperclip[B]> biting me? LOL of course!!
<jewel`{F}> Fyre has certain expectations of me, my behaviour, the way i address Him, other Dominants
<jen{SE}> how important are protocals to you and to D/s
<jen{SE}> that is a battle i fight often
* jen{SE} the battle is within myself
<^dana> a battle jen?
<shareena> to us they are not that important.
<jen{SE}> protocals are more important to me than to Sir
<Kilted_One> pictures a devil on one of jen's shoulder and an angel on the other
<jen{SE}> most of the time i am fine without them but sometimes i long for them
<paperclip[B]> it's all about time and place for Bill and i. the degrees just vary depending on situation.
<jewel`{F}> i agree jen{SE}, sometimes it is like i need them
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, You know better KO, devil on both shoulders here
<sage_> how do you define protocol jen{SE}?
<jen{SE}> ahh now that's the million dollar question
<jen{SE}> they are whatever floats the boat, can be very different for different people
<sage_> but what is it for you?
<sage_> and paperclip[B] about you? jewel`{F}?
<paperclip[B]> what protocols do Bill and i have?
<jewel`{F}> for me, it is the formalities i guess
<sage_> how do you define what protocol is?
<paperclip[B]> ah
<^dana> good manners... grins
<paperclip[B]> hmmm good question.
<jen{SE}> for me they are simple, kneeling at His feet, performing particular tasks in a predefined manner
<goinglittle> do folks differentiate between protocol and ritual?
<sage_> so are rituals the same thing?
<paperclip[B]> i think it's a learned discipline...a knowledge of what's expected of me and doing so without being told.
<`abi{A}> for me they are different
<`abi{A}> a protocol is just a specific expectation of how something is to be done
<`abi{A}> rituals have a significant meaning attached to them
* jen{SE} for me i would define putting on the collar as a ritual that has a protocal assigned to it
<goinglittle> they are different to me as well...ritual has symbolic meaning
<sage_> so is it fair to say that protocol is a generalized rule that dictates behaviour?
<paperclip[B]> i'm still having a hard time answering your question sage_...seems to me that i've always been told by people that protocol has nothing to do with ettitquette, rituals etc...but when i ask for definitions...i get examples like the ones i'm told it's not LOL
<goinglittle> IMO, protocol are rules about behaviour and etiquette
<paperclip[B]> LOL
<goinglittle> can't argue with Webster ;)
<paperclip[B]> protocol is more a feeling for me that comes out as behaviours and ettiquette and rituals
<goinglittle> protocol is a feeling? now I'm confused
<paperclip[B]> i'm just talking...trying to think of something! give me a break LOL
<sage_> maybe a quality paperclip[B]?
<paperclip[B]> yes, could be sage_.
* goinglittle turns down her sadistic side a notch or two ;)
<paperclip[B]> lmao
<jen{SE}> protocal in the computer world is the format data is transmitted in
<jen{SE}> in the military it is pompt and ceremony
* paperclip[B] becomes officially lost
<^dana> what about protocols within a local group... are they necessary?
<sage_> the word always makes me think of formal dinners and silent men in tuxedoes serving lavish dishes
<paperclip[B]> lol
<sage_> its all about food really ;)
<paperclip[B]> i think that would depend on what the group is trying to achieve ^dana
<sage_> but what i'm getting at is that protocol sets a mood
<jen{SE}> proctocol to me is how something is done, like a guide, step 1, step 2, step 3
<paperclip[B]> i agree with that sage_
<^dana> very much so sage_
<_dove> I liken protocol to a "code of conduct". An example of that is courtesan protocol - when meeting royalty
* paperclip[B] adopts that definition
<sage_> yes _dove...
<_dove> I don't gree abi the same way I would greet the Queen (much to the Queen's dismay)
<sage_> i like that definition too
* `abi{A} harrumphs
<arhiannah{MJ}> and abi's
<`abi{A}> I help you up from the curtsey, honest I would
<_dove> If you stopped laughing long enough
<Kilted_One> Ritual
<Kilted_One> o
<Kilted_One> o Rituals should be created and continued with some purpose in mind. Purposeless rituals detract from the value of rituals that further worthy goals
<Kilted_One> o Rituals are performed regularly, unlike ceremonies which are used to mark special occasions
<Kilted_One> o Ritual can be woven through every mundane part of life: how the tea is served, how one dresses, or how a slave enters a room need not be left to whim
<Kilted_One> o Adding ritual to an activity is a way of increasing its importance
<Kilted_One> o A formal way of doing something
<jen{SE}> so what is the purpose of protocal and rituals in M/s D/s
<Kilted_One> the "doing" part of this is normally the "ritual'
<goinglittle> to set a mood, to highlight things that are important
<Kilted_One> Why are Custom, Decorum, Ritual and Ceremony important to M/s relationships?
<Kilted_One> o Slavery is a set of beliefs and practices
<Kilted_One> o Creation of and adherence to customary practices actualizes a philosophy of slavery
<Kilted_One> o Decorum, ritual and ceremony are the glue that hold an M/s relationship together
<Kilted_One> o Our customs regarding slavery, include particular decorum, ritual and ceremony
<Kilted_One> does that answer you ?? jen
* jen{SE} wants to see KO"s hidden cut and paste source
<jen{SE}> *smiles*
<Kilted_One> all from my friend Jack McGeorge
<`abi{A}> for reinforces the heirarchy, it distinguishes the relationship as unique, it creates an orderly world ....and we like it
<jen{SE}> so can a M/s relationship survive without rituals?
<`abi{A}> not Jack's
<Kilted_One> "The rolls of custom Custom, Decorum, Ritual and Ceremony
<_dove> Yes some can
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<shareena> very well said `abi{A}
<MeltedGlass> what a complicated first thing to walk in on
<MeltedGlass> can some generous, kind, loving person please explain the topic to me?
* jen{SE} agrees with shareena very well said abi
<sage_> `abi{A} do you think your M/s dynamic would work without protocol and/or ritual?
<Kilted_One> there are many levels that all relationships exist on jen, but I think you would have a very watered down one without some form or ritual
<shareena> why is that Kilted_One?
<jen{SE}> is it the job of the Dominant or can the submissive creat their own?
<`abi{A}> the D/s dynamic sage ... the protocol and ritual is intrinsic to the way it operates
<Kilted_One> if you sit back and listen MeltedGlass somethings may come a littel clearer
<MeltedGlass> I'm attempting it, thanks kilted.
<sage_> watered down...ordinary?
<jen{SE}> not the v word....
<^dana> i agree Kilted_One... for myself its very comforting to have protocols and rituals in place... even when meeting someone knew... protocols can also include respect for another in the "lifestyle"... even if its an acknowledgement of their choice...
<`abi{A}> even when I'm relating to someone else... say in a casual scene ... a level of protocol needs to kick in that might not usually be there in order for me to relate in the way that I need to
<sage_> and if a submissive creates their own rituals, do they need them to be validated by their Master?
<_dove> I would guess that would depend on what motivated the ritual sage
<sage_> i mean for them to be of significance
<`abi{A}> that depends sage...I think that there are rituals in which a submissive may engage, which are independent of their D/s relationship
<sage_> i have a ritual for the way i make my coffee in the morning...i find it adds to my enjoyment of the coffee
<Kilted_One> an M/s relationship assumes that there is some form of power exchange taking place...there has to be some form or conduit for that to take place...the ritual is the most common method of enforcing/exchanging the power, hence without it or a low level of it would mean a low level relationshio of that nature
<sage_> is that the same thing?
<`abi{A}> depends sage... is the coffee strong or weak ;)
<motoki> that's a ritual, but perhaps not in the D/s sense (although it could be)
<sage_> strong
<jen{SE}> does it have bailey's in it????
<sage_> sorry jen{SE}.. i only wish
<sub_dubai> what kw_ mean ?
<^dana> its called heart sage... a ritual isnt just about the task youre doing... like making coffee... its about the spirit and heart you put into it
<sage_> the reverence that one feels for it?
<jewel`{F}> kw is a short form for the twin cities of Kitchener and Waterloo in Ontario Canada sub_dubai
<sub_dubai> i see thx
<sage_> is there a basic set of rules common in most people's version of protocol?
<BernieRoehl> Aside from the general principles of respect, I don't think there's anything that's truly universal
<Kilted_One> we all have rituals that we perform on a daily basis...they are not all based in D/s or M/s though.....for example I'm sure that most of us have a certain way that we brush our teeth. how we pick up the toothbrush, how we squeeze out the paste, how we brush etc
* `abi{A} thinks there should be a universal protocol about squeezing the paste
<shareena> and how to put on the toilet paper roll `abi{A}
<dana_foreveralways> grrrrs... rotten isp...
<`abi{A}> what distinguishes protocols and rituals as being D/s based, is that they have a purpose which is directly related to that power dynamic
<MeltedGlass> So you've been in a relationships for a certain number of years and decide to change rituals/protocol in the m/s or d/s area for the sake of change/sexual appeal. My gf and I are attempting to do this but I'm noticing that more of the same stuff still happens when what we're both really craving is a complete turn-around
<BernieRoehl> So the rituals become an expression of the power dynamics that exists between those two people
<BernieRoehl> (following up on abi's thought, not MeltedGlass')
<sage_> how have you been introducing ritual into the relationshop MeltedGlass?
<Kilted_One> number one golden rule with rituals..."They have to have meaning and purpose"...second..."They have to be used, or they have no purpose'
<MeltedGlass> I think the protocols are like the specific safety nets that people have. For example- we always have sergical scissors around when doing bondage but we also always little rules that go unnoticeed such as a worship scene or stuggle before being tied.
<sage_> i think surgical scissors are just common sense
<MeltedGlass> yeh, that example was a bit vague.
<sage_> so in a worship scene what rituals do you incorporate...or is it more of a script?
<jen{SE}> defined rituals and protocols bring a fluidity to the relationship and a sense of grace... hmmm, not sure how to word this
<sage_> i like that jen{SE}..sense of grace
<MeltedGlass> sage- the only rituals we truly follow are certain lines that have been taught to be said after certain body gestures and bowing from foot to hips.
<Kilted_One> whatever rituals you both feel are worth adding or one stands what one wears what one says are all things that can be added to a ritual
<MeltedGlass> jen- so is it possible to somehow ignore these rules that we've made for ourselves? it seems we've gotten stuck in them and old habbits fall fast.
<jen{SE}> i always enjoy watching an M/s couple who have been together for awhile, if you watch closely many times you silent examples of rituals and protocols being followed
* jen{SE} need to find the protocol for typing without errors... geesk
* jen{SE} ahh yes, remembered what it is to type better get glass of wine
<MeltedGlass> tsk tsk.
<jen{SE}> not sure if you want to ignore them or just expand on them
<Kilted_One> sage_ for your worshiping scene....what is being worshiped is the basis...the actions that you both take are the ritual and it can have whatever elements you want to add to it. It can have actions/words/clothing (or lack of) it can have a combination of any of the aforementioned
<jen{SE}> which brings my next question to mind, should rituals and protocols be changed? i have heard it said often, that they become the norm, they no longer "feel" special
<MeltedGlass> expand on rituals? ignore. get the OUT of the way. like starting fresh. which currently seems impossibly.
<MeltedGlass> yes, jennnn *claps* THATS what i was getting at!
<sage_> has that been your experience jen{SE}?
<jen{SE}> in somethings yes, in other no
<Kilted_One> what is wrong with them being the "norm" if they are worthy of being included then they should be the norm
* `abi{A} points out that religious organizations have rituals that have lasted for hundreds of years ... I figure I can keep mine meaningful for 20 or so
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<jen{SE}> yes, but do they not add to them over the centuries
<`abi{A}> lol..I'm not sure jen ... it's been awhile since I've warmed a pew
<jen{SE}> *lol*, me too
<jen{SE}> kneel in different places now
<MeltedGlass> and who says you cant add to rituals? i think that any ritual should be changed to suit the couple/persons over time. In the past that's how things have worked- society adapts to different rituals and if it makes an experience better for the participants then be playful!
* jen{SE} can see the lightening bolt from above is she was to enter a church these days
<jen{SE}> many parts of the lifestyle are a struggle one of the nice things, as an aside, is the rituals and protocols, they are defined, i know what is expected
<jen{SE}> less doubt am i doing something right or wrong, if i am following the protocol all is good *lol*
<MeltedGlass> hey- my old minister participated in worship and bondage rituals. they have their kinky sides.
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.