August 14 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<`abi> okay...let's roll with the discussion
<`abi> Tonight's discussion topic is "Communication". Please feel free to
join in with questions and comments, but kindly refrain from Walton-style
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<`abi> we'll take it as a foregone conclusion that communication is a good
thing ....anyone care to comment on why it is particularly important in a
BDSM lifestyle
<minx{KO}> emotions run higher
<minx{KO}> more intense
<Abominous> safety ,,, during play ,,, and means more than just verbal
<LrdTZ> it is the only way to get to know each other.
<LrdTZ> if ppl communicated probably in every day relationships then divorce
would be extent.
* SirBear isn't talking
<kathryn_kw> without it how can there be trust ?
<`abi> how does communication build trust kathryn_kw?
<LrdTZ> you have to have communication from both sides of the relationship.
if not then you don't have communications.
* DarkAngel^ thinks intergity builds trust ,, comunication keeps and nutures
<kathryn_kw> how can you negotiate.. learn about the other
<kathryn_kw> their needs wants limits.. negotiate etc without it
<dalian> without communication you cannot possibly know what the other
person is thinking, feeling and experiencing
<kathryn_kw> and without those how can you have trust
<`abi> how does it nurture it DA?
<kathryn_kw> exactly dalian
<DarkAngel^> by keeping it up as a daily thing ,,,, not taking the rest for
<`abi> how do we go about communicating those things dalian?
* DarkAngel^ is very demonstrative,,,, a hugger ,, a caresser ,, a kisser ,,
many non-verbal ,, as well as verbal
<dalian> we can communicate by words, eye contact, body language etc...once
communication is explored by BOTH parties...deeper forms result which go
beyond words
<LrdTZ> Communication has to be a continous event. even if one day goes by
you can lose what you have.
<`abi> what kind of non-verbal clues do you look for from your partner
DA?...what do they tell you?
<DarkAngel^> I demand a high level of responce ,,, even when relaxed and
comfortable in a relationship,, one reason I am sure .. I am still looking
<`abi> what kinds of things qualify as a high level of response DA?
<DarkAngel^> eyes,,, verbal,, hugging ,, smiles,,
<DarkAngel^> walking,, holding hands ,,, talking about the smallest things
<LrdTZ> you learn to read ppl with proper communications. what they like, what they don't like. how they reaat to a particular experience,
* DarkAngel^ doesnt want someone who agrees with himall the time,,,but someone who will respect his view .. and express theirs
* DarkAngel^ is a damn big romantic ,, and is gonna shut up ,,,LOL
<kathryn_kw> hey Da you just went up another notch on the Don/me scale
<Sweetone{LT}> how does a sub communicate to her dom during a scene?
<LrdTZ> and that goes the other way DarkAngel^ we each have to express and listen and respect each others views.
<DarkAngel^> I agree
<LrdTZ> with reaction Sweetone{LT}
<kathryn_kw> non verbally , signals . grunts moans etc
<DarkAngel^> lol
<Sweetone{LT}> how does she let him know without appearing to manipulate the scene that she needs more pain for example
<kathryn_kw> pre arranged signals
<kathryn_kw> its still communication is it not /
* DarkAngel^ respects SSC ,, and safe words are encouraged ,, especially during exploration of limits ,, already mutually discussed
<LrdTZ> I know my sub wants more in a scene with the butt comes back to met the implement of pleasure.
<sindrella^> i think communication is particularly important because of the intensity of the play. I believe often because of their nature submissives only thrive on, intense, intimate, emotionally open relationships.
<kathryn_kw> me too
<kathryn_kw> fem subs seem different than males a lot though'
<`abi> in what ways kathryn_kw
<kathryn_kw> we want it all heart mind body and soul the spirit etc
<kathryn_kw> often male subs seem to be more focused on the physical/sexual as the main focus
<`abi> do they communicate differently?
<kathryn_kw> imho
<kathryn_kw> i could be wrong though
<kathryn_kw> i think so
<DarkAngel^> I think comunication is important during all phases,,, but before play is very important ,,, since mostly non verbal hapens during
<kathryn_kw> hard to put into words how though
<`abi> anyone use checklists as an early communication tool?
<LrdTZ> I think the communication has to happen after play as well. And I believe this is very important.
<LrdTZ> I do.
<`abi> how do they help the process LrdTZ?
<dalian> thinking on Sweetone's question...if a sub is trying to communicate a need to her Dom but not want to manipulate the that not what she would be doing by communicating that need...instead of going with what her Dom wants soley in the scene?
<DarkAngel^> good point LrdTZ ,,,I agree
<Chiaroscuro{a}> abi.. yes, I found looking at a checklist very useful and surprising
<`abi> surprising in what way Chiaroscuro{a}?
<LrdTZ> for me they do as I go one point beyond some ppl that use them I also filled it out and I send it to the person that is filling out one for me. so that they can see what i'm into and have expereinced.
<Chiaroscuro{a}> well, some things that I didn't suspect she was interested in or open to, she actually was... the form I used had a rating system on it
<`abi> so, it creates a starting point for communication of interests LrdTZ and Chiaroscuro{a}?
<kathryn_kw> i agree good start
<dalian> i've found the checklists a very insightful tool
<LrdTZ> yes. you find out what you have in common and wheere you want to go from there.
<kathryn_kw> and somehow easier if its on paper
* DarkAngel^ has dabled with checklist lately ,, looking for more varied ones too
<Sweetone{LT}> it's a tough call dalian, the sub should have her needs met, and how else does that happen than for her to communicate that to her dom, but the problem arises in that it is specific to that moment
<LrdTZ> DarkAngel^ i'll send you mine if you wish.
<`abi> where do you go from there?
<Chiaroscuro{a}> abi, exactly... it also helps to foster an idea of punishments and/or rewards.
<DarkAngel^> pls LrdTZ
<`abi> so, it leads to negotiation Chiaroscuro{a}?
<DarkAngel^> list was a good discusion for me and sindrella^
<`abi> what about other communication tools....anyone have any experience with contracts?
<Sweetone{LT}> perhaps the dom should outline to the sub what his philosophies are and what life with him would be like prior to playing/collaring/commiting
<Chiaroscuro{a}> `abi... well negotiation for sure if the relationship is newer but in terms of pre-existing close relationship it helps to get knowledge of turn ons/offs
<DarkAngel^> I agree with Chiaroscuro{a}
<slaveluna> i have been in a contract in the past
<kathryn_kw> legally a contract is not worth the paper its printed on
<`abi> but does it serve any other purpose kathryn_kw?
<kathryn_kw> but it can give a basis of what you have and have not agreedd to do together
<DarkAngel^> contract is only worth the integrity of the beings in it
<dalian> well said DarkAngel^
<dalian> and very true
* DarkAngel^ has never entered into a contract ,,,
<`abi> back to integrity DA ... I'm interested to explore how you link integrity to communication there a link or are they separate entities?
<kathryn_kw> both abi
<kathryn_kw> integrity has to be shown
<kathryn_kw> demonstrated
<kathryn_kw> i dont assume its their
<`abi> and it can be shown through thoughtful communication?
<DarkAngel^> well it goes back to trust ,,, what does it matter what is discussed if it's meaning is under suspition
<kathryn_kw> DA you keep getting higher notches on the Dom/me chart
<kathryn_kw> slow down will ya ? :)
* DarkAngel^ has few good points
<kathryn_kw> not just communication abi
<sindrella^> i think a contract is a wonderful thing, terms are clearly stated but, they should be open to renegotiation at any time.
<kathryn_kw> but in action and deed as well
<Sweetone{LT}> what about the communication itself?? it seems many people these days have invented terminology, or meanings for words to suit their own purpose, and not the general accepted meanings...this causes great confusion in communicating
<kathryn_kw> use the kiss
<kathryn_kw> keep it simple
<kathryn_kw> and direct
<`abi> what about less formal things .... does anyone use debriefing as a means to communicate emotions, expectations, experiences?
<kathryn_kw> and any questions ask
<DarkAngel^> didnt think of that sindrella^ ,,, but cant that be touchy once the Dom takes his Control ?
<zaRina`> dont assume,,, clarify,, ie: your going to use a WHAT on me Sir??"
<kathryn_kw> debriefing is good from both
* SirBear doesn't think contracts should be re-negotiated until the end of the term
<kathryn_kw> after the afterplay and coming down has occured
<sindrella^> not really DarkAngel^ is it is stated in the contract that it is negotiable :)
<`abi> how have you found that helpful kathryn_kw?
<kathryn_kw> but not 4 days down the road
<kathryn_kw> yes i have abi
<sindrella^> yes SirBear that could be stipulated as well
<SirBear> oops, thought this was the sports channel
<kathryn_kw> helps to let me know that the partner is concerned and caring
<sindrella^> all a contract is, is an agreement between two or more parties, anything can be entered into it.
<kathryn_kw> and we can both look at it and try to improve things in future etc
<`abi> have you ever found that you both had different perceptions of a scene kathryn_kw?
<Ron^`> SirBear a line in the contractt may be that this contract is changeable at any time. If someone made a decision that they don`t wish to live through why would anyone want to foorce them into something they don`t want
* DarkAngel^ has neer looked into contracts ,,, and knows little on them
<kathryn_kw> yes and that one of the areas where it helps a lot
<sindrella^> lol you need a legal secretary DarkAngel^ Sir :)
<`abi> another tool....journals....does anyone use them as a communication tool?
<kathryn_kw> but for me its an equal exchange
* dalian has written in journals for 4 years now
<kathryn_kw> no power exchange during the discussion
<kathryn_kw> lol me too dalian :)
<LeatherSmith> zaR wants us to start separate journals
<`abi> do you use them as a personal exploration dalian ... or have you ever shared them with a Dominant as a communication tool
<Calentra> evening all
* DarkAngel^ needs alot
<`abi> and to share them LeatherSmith? .. or keep them private?
<LeatherSmith> one of each actually
<dalian> i have two seperate personal and never to ne shared as it is my personal journey...and another written to be shared by another
<LeatherSmith> one shared one totally just for my eyes only
<LeatherSmith> same for her
<`abi> what do you hope to gain from those?
<LeatherSmith> to klnow my own deep feelings better in my private one and to let her see all inside me in the shared, to grow and to communicate
<`abi> is there an issue for submissives of "nothing being kept from Master"?
<kathryn_kw> depends
<`abi> on?
<kathryn_kw> i still think we need some of our own personal space and identity
<LeatherSmith> and in sharing we will most likely see new avenues that need exploring together , or conversely, discaover hidden landmines
<zaRina`> W/we are one of the lucky ones,, being able to easily say to the other,,hey,,i need to talk,,but a place too, where i can turn and mutter and curse and bitch if i need to vent things that would be of no benifit to share
<dalian> the personal one gives me insights about myself as i grow through every experience, especially painful ones...the other journal that is shared is my growth in experiences bdsm sharing i am giving something very deep of myself to another...which is very powerful
<kathryn_kw> there is no way in hell i am going to give up my personal identity totally for anyone :)
<kathryn_kw> good point zar
<LeatherSmith> i feel a sub with no personal identity can be replaced by a dishrag
<LrdTZ> too many doms like to micromanage.
<LrdTZ> doormats.
<kathryn_kw> i agree LrdTz
<zaRina`> kathryn, i too have always percieved that same perspective of submission, and it may explain why i never gave myself to someone,,till LeatherSmith came back into my life,, now i understand, in being owned, i am free
<sindrella^> for many "nothing being kept from Master" allows a submissive to be set free, don't you think abi?
<LeatherSmith> amen LrdTZ
<`abi> I don't get paid to think sindrella^ ;)
<kathryn_kw> and they will lose their family jewels if they try to micromanage me
<sindrella^> ehheeh
<kathryn_kw> lol
<`abi> so .... how do we know when communication crosses the privacy line?
<kathryn_kw> speak up
<kathryn_kw> this is a place i will not go
<kathryn_kw> not hard to say at all :)
<LrdTZ> when the Dom does not listen to the subs respect or when you feel uncomfortable about the topic.
<`abi> are there communication limits that can be pushed the same way as physical limits?
<sindrella^> why would you not want to be able to stand naked with your thoughts, you feelings before you Master?
<kathryn_kw> hmmm hard question
<zaRina`> fear of being dismissed as stupid
<kathryn_kw> depends on what he would do with them sinderella
<`abi> is "I don't want to talk about it" ever a legitimate response for a submissive?
<sindrella^> well if that fear exists then why would you want to be in the relationship.
<kathryn_kw> yes abi
<LeatherSmith> i say no abi, but sonmetimes a respite is in order
<kathryn_kw> it can also be i dont want to talk about it " now "
<Sweetone{LT}> should the dom have a communication method in place for issue management?
<LeatherSmith> time to collect yourself
<kathryn_kw> whnich can open the door for future discussion
<LrdTZ> its very ligitimate abi. and you made a comment that bothering me as well "i don't get paid to think" you should be thinking always.
<zaRina`> yes i feel it is, but would clarify that to be , i dont feel like discussing it at the moment, may we do so when i have collected and sorted thru whats bothering me, and look to you for guidance then Master?
<sindrella^> again kathryn_kw if you have a fear of what he would do with your thoughts or your feelings then why would you wish to be with that Master?
* `abi smiles at LrdTZ ... if you knew me, you would know that my mind rarely kicks out
<kathryn_kw> lol i havent met a Dom/me so far that i have trusted my self enough to be that open and vulnerable too
<kathryn_kw> they have to earn my trust
<dalian> depends entirely on the issue being discussed..we all have areas in our lives that are extremely difficult to talk about
<zaRina`> guidance being , that i dont expect you to solve the issue, but may be better able to present it in a manner that will let me retain my pride
<kathryn_kw> if they dont like it they can hit the highway
<`abi> what kind of barriers are there to good communication ... kathryn_kw has already alluded to there anything else?
* DarkAngel^ likes the way sindrella^ thinks
<Sweetone{LT}> how the communication is expected abi...
* vixen{KO} waves and smiles warmly
<`abi> how so Sweetone{LT}?
<Sweetone{LT}> the dom should instruct the sub as to how he wished issues discussed
<kathryn_kw> hmm and the sub has no say in it ?
<Sweetone{LT}> why should she kathryn_kw?
<Sweetone{LT}> is he not the one in control?
<kathryn_kw> well if she is a doormat i guess she doesnt need too
<`abi> perhaps because she may not communicate best that way Sweetone{LT}
<kathryn_kw> exactly abi
<Sweetone{LT}> that goes back to the dom outlining his philososphies, what life with him would be like...she can decide if that is for her or not before entering into it
<LrdTZ> why should the dom instruct you how to open your mouth Sweetone{LT}
<zaRina`> He/She will, having the best intrest of Their sub in mind, lay out a way that will work for her and Him
<LrdTZ> if you have something to say you should say it.
<kathryn_kw> people grow and change.. its constant
<kathryn_kw> and unless the negotiation remains constant its going to suffer
<kathryn_kw> imho
<Sweetone{LT}> so sub is angry with you...she yells at that appropriate behaviour?
<`abi> anger exists in every relationship .... how do we communicate it in a BDSM relationship?
<LeatherSmith> communication fo displeasure (anger) does not have to entail raised voices
<LrdTZ> if what she is mad is appropriate it sure as hell is. but we will discuss the attitude when she is in a better mood. just because your a sub does not make you a doormat. you have your rights and you have the right to communicate the problem. I use the term "Time Out: to discuss problems
<zaRina`> David is learning i work best if communication is firm but not critical, yelling will make me deffensive, yet a quiet indication of His needs works quite effectively
<LeatherSmith> GMTA
* zaRina` looks across the room and grins at Him,, wow, we are scary
<kathryn_kw> lol
<Sweetone{LT}> so blowing up at the dom is acceptable communication?
<`abi> so you have had to learn about each other's styles of communication zaRina`?
<LeatherSmith> NOT Sweetone{LT}
<`abi> how did you go about making that discovery?
<kathryn_kw> sometimes the issue is so intense that it will happen
<LrdTZ> blowing up at anyone is not acceptable Sweetone{LT} open discussion IS
<kathryn_kw> if you try to stifle it you stifle communicationa
<LrdTZ> I don't yell at anyone and expect that respect back .
<kathryn_kw> and possibly silence her in the future as well
<blush{ND}> exactly LrdTZ.. its all about respect
<LeatherSmith> issues should not get so carried away that the intensity rises to that level, they should have been dealt with in their infancy
<kathryn_kw> well thats the ideal
<`abi> how do you ensure that LeatherSmith?
<kathryn_kw> how many are though
<Sweetone{LT}> ok LrdTZ...let me get this straight...if the sub is angry with you, she yells at you, that is ok, because she is discuss how she should have handled it diferently later? then that is how the dom is outlining acceptable communication
<LeatherSmith> by keeping the communication lines open 24/7
<LeatherSmith> never ever shutting my one out
<`abi> specifically how do you keep them open LeatherSmith? ... what kinds of things do you do?
<kathryn_kw> right on LS
<DarkAngel^> I agree with LZ
<LeatherSmith> i maintain an honest caring Interest in her daily life, know her areas of concern and trying not to push them before she is ready
<LrdTZ> No Sweetone{LT}. if the subie yells I'll try and get her to relax and talk in quiet voice but if she needs to yell then she yells. i'm not going to beat her for it, but it is not communication when your yelling. its nothing and there is no communications exchange. I close off. and let them simmer and when they wnat to talk about it in a proper tone of voice then we will discuss it.
<DarkAngel^> I have no prob with a blow up ,,, 24-7 needs room for that ,, I was married for 13 yrs to a woman who held stuff in for months,, then blew up in one big burst ,,, what a waste
* `abi checks the time and wonders whether we can squeeze one more element of communication out of this hour ... what about sharing fantasies as a communication tool?
<LeatherSmith> that is Awesome!
<kathryn_kw> love it abi
<DarkAngel^> MMMmmmmmm
<kathryn_kw> fantastic
<Sweetone{LT}> i see, thank you LrdTZ
<`abi> lol...well, that's an enthusiastic do we do it?
<LeatherSmith> we tell each other stories as we..........well it gets a tad private after that, but it is an are we LOve
<LrdTZ> its the only way to get to know your subbies fantasies abi. them them talk about them
* DarkAngel^ likes the idea of assigning a sub to write out her fantasies ,,, taking away the crutch of my input
<DarkAngel^> then talking them out
<kathryn_kw> two way street though
<LeatherSmith> part of the reason for the shared journals as well
* sindrella^ blushes at the thought
<sindrella^> lol
<kathryn_kw> whats good for the sub is good for the master too :)
* DarkAngel^ never got any
* `abi notes the blush....does describing a fantasy make it easier or harder to talk about what you want sindrella^?
<kathryn_kw> brb
<DarkAngel^> ahh kathryn_kw ,,, some things a Dom has the better position ,, but I would discuss my fantacies,,, I never have a prob verbalizing
<sindrella^> oh i think sharing a fantasy is a wonderful thing, i'm sure the end results could only be positive.
<kathryn_kw> well the point is its still a two way street
<DarkAngel^> shhhh Art is here
<zaRina`> with respect to sharing fantasy, i have also made it clear that some of these will always be just a fantasy,,others, i am willing to explore someday
<dalian> i have always found it easier to write about fantasies as opposed to verbally communicating them...can't see the blush through words
<kathryn_kw> regardless if its verbal or written media :)
<LeatherSmith> and some of z's fantasies (mine too) you would get arested for, leaving them as fantasies but sharing them verbally hurts no-one but can be a powerful stimulus
<sindrella^> again another way of standing naked before your Master and being set free.
<LeatherSmith> awwww z get your own damn lines LOL
* DarkAngel^ was very surprised when his wife wrote him a storry involving a cop and handcuffs ,, back seat of criuser ,,, ect ect
<kathryn_kw> brb
<`abi> okay ... wrap up time .... let's complete the phrase .... good communication means?????
<sindrella^> lol well your not suppose to share peoples fantasies DarkAngel^, lol
<LrdTZ> open relationships
* sindrella^ takes note
* SirBear still isn't talking
<`abi> 1. open relationships
<LeatherSmith> to me means the office door is always open, come on in
<`abi> 2. open doors
<zaRina`> be prepared to talk, prepared to share, but most importantly, prepared to listen,,and act on what is indicated
<DarkAngel^> was many years ago sindrella^ ,,,, and was one of the first things that started my walk down this interesting lane
<SirBear> 3. put the toilet seat down
<sindrella^> teasing Sir
<`abi> 3. listening (includes the toilet seat request)
<SirBear> :)
<DarkAngel^> 4. put toilet seat back up
<`abi> 4. responding (includes reacting to the toilet seat request)
<LeatherSmith> good one DA!
* zaRina` quietly puts it back down
<SirBear> lol DA
* DarkAngel^ evil chuckle
<LeatherSmith> pokes zaRina`
<DarkAngel^> 4.5 put it up ,,, and hold for me
<`abi> 5. nonverbal communication (includes quiet attack of the toilet seat request)
<shaniholly> lol
<LrdTZ> good communication means you feel comfortable speaking openly
<`abi> 6. negotiation (includes rethinking the toilet seat issue)
<DarkAngel^> did I say that outloud ?
<LeatherSmith> you get comfortable by having good communicatiuon
<`abi> 7. comfort and trust
<`abi> 8. growth
<zaRina`> and the best dam relationship i have ever experienced
<LrdTZ> nurtruing
<DarkAngel^> 9. hooters
<`abi> 9. is worth it
<`abi> 10. hope
* SirBear wonders if she'll make it
<`abi> and that about wraps it up
<SirBear> done!
<`abi> thank you everyone for participating
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, abi!
Session Close: Sun Aug 13 22:00:48 2000