August 10, 2003 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Qualities of a good Dom and Qualities of a good sub". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<ravenswolf> soooooo quiet - the Mod Bot shows up and everyone clams up
<_cassie> Someone needs to start this discussion... *grins*
<Kilted_One> well at least you are here
<ravenswolf> lol i nominate you cassie
<_cassie> oh no... not me!
<Kilted_One> is there such a thing as a "good Dom/submissive"??
<slave_earl> just to get disagreed with, a good sub makes a good Dom
<_cassie> and can a good Dom make a good sub?
<ravenswolf> and visa versa i would think
<PetOwner> I don' agree
<Kilted_One> why is that PetOwner
<PetOwner> I know that I would not make a good sub
<slave_earl> a good sub must start with the desire to serve just as a good Dom must have a need to be in control
<PetOwner> but yet my sub is good for me
<_cassie> oooh... I meant that a different way. If you have a good Dom, they can bring out things in you that another Dom might not be able to.
<ravenswolf> mmm i read slave_earl's comment as a good sub influences his/her Dom/me
<Kilted_One> I think you may have mis-read what was said PetOwner, the comment was saying that a good submissives "makes" the good Dom, not that the submissive would make a good Dom and visa versa
<Kilted_One> I think you may have mis-read what was said PetOwner, the comment was saying that a good submissives "makes" the good Dom, not that the submissive would make a good Dom and visa versa
<slave_earl> a good sub makes being a Dom a pleasure.
<petowner> yes that is so...
<slave_earl> anyway, that's what the aim is of this slave
<petowner> oh, and that a good dom makes a good sub
<Kilted_One> so what qualities does a submissive look for/get attracted to in a good Dom.??
<`abi> the trick of course is that a Dominant or a submissive may have a quality or characteristic which makes them a very good Dominant or submissive in one relationship and a terrible one in another
<petowner> as in any relationship
<Sweet1`> balance
<petowner> trust
<petowner> honesty
<jen{SE}> it is each to their own from my perspective
<_cassie> communication
<jen{SE}> a sub who needs/wants rituals would not find a a Dom who does not a good Dom
<slave_earl> a good Domme for this one is One who loves being in control and is not afraid to take the responsibility that comes with that control
<jen{SE}> a sub who wants/needs control but not rituals would find a Dom who wants them not so great etc..
<petowner> yes
<jen{SE}> a sensual sub would not probably enjoy a sadist Dom
* jen{SE} perfect Dom has a great swinging arm *lol*, just joking before everyone jumps on me...
<petowner> true
* DarkAngel{rt} jumps on jen{SE}
<_dove> i think there's a difference between a "good" Dom and the "right" Dom
<redfox> agreed dove
<petowner> there has to be chemmistry
<jen{SE}> yeppers, exactly, what is good for me is not for someone else, what is good for me is right for me
<petowner> yes, I would not say any two Doms are the same
* jen{SE} *lol* @ DA, as i duck to the side
<redfox> i remember once knowing a Dom who could get to my romantic side, but wasn't the right Dom for real time play - too soft for me
<jen{SE}> romance? romance?, what's that *grins*
<redfox> jen - another Dom called his profile - flowery
<jen{SE}> hmmm, flowery Dom, shudders
<redfox> might have the right stuff for someone, but not i
<Kilted_One> would be a thistle
<redfox> grin, yes KO, i can envision that
<jen{SE}> rose bush thorns attached sounds good too KO
<_cassie> prickly cactus?
<DarkAngel{rt}> no bush on them rose thorns
<Kilted_One> so we have seen a few times DA
<jen{SE}> ahh but what about the true torture, now that she is accustomed to no bush, make her grow it back ..,.,
<DarkAngel{rt}> some think that is a Dom can be romantic he/she will not also be able to be sadistic ,,,, *Innocent smile* ,, I can attest that isnt necessarily true
<Kilted_One> so how does one go about finding/recognising their "right" Dom/submissive??
<jen{SE}> know what you really want vs what you think you want.. the old becareful what you ask for you may get it....
<DarkAngel{rt}> I think Kilted_One ,,, they first have to be honest and get to know themselves and their own needs
* _cassie nods
<_cassie> Learning about yourself is the most important first step... but even then, what you think you know may be way off base.
<jen{SE}> and be realistic about the Dom/sub
<jen{SE}> don't get wrapped up in the on-line version of what D/s is all about, it won't tranfer to r/l very well, no one can be on 24 hours a day 7 days a week
<jen{SE}> you can be a sub all the time, but you won't be on your knees all the time, and there is still PMS, family, kids, etc...
<Kilted_One> PMS?? what is that??
<jen{SE}> so don't show the Dominant only the perfect you, show Him all of you, and same goes for the Dominants...
<lil^tigress> so true jen .. so very true both should show each other the real/true you .. not someone who is only partially true to themselves
<jen{SE}> Consistency, respect, sense of humour (cause i sure could use Him having one some times) *eg*
* DarkAngel{rt} wants someone rich and with big tits
<redfox> single minded DA
<DarkAngel{rt}> oh ,, ya ,, and someone who has a sence of humour
<jen{SE}> don't You all DA???? *smiles sweetly*, don't forget, young, gorgeous and perfect on her knees
<ravenswolf> lol all that perfection sounds kinda boring
<Kilted_One> that sounds more like what I would live with <smiles>
<jen{SE}> *lol*, yep, so the perfect Dom is an imperfect one to me
<redfox> seems to me DA thinks greed is a good quality for a Dom ...
<Kilted_One> none of us are perfect some if us just think we are
<redfox> too much of a good thing DA
<jen{SE}> ahh well They do tend to be greedy about sharing Their pets *smiles*
<DarkAngel{rt}> noticing humour is though redfox
<redfox> lol, DA, i also have big tits
<redfox> ;-P
<DarkAngel{rt}> Mmmm are you rich redfox ? LOL
* jen{SE} *sighs* and looks down, nope, not one of my traits
* DarkAngel{rt} likes jen{SE}'s butt though
<jen{SE}> *smiles*, ty DA
<jen{SE}> hmm, striped or unstriped????
<redfox> lol, jen - he's gonna have to make a BOT-sub, to get it all in one package
<Kilted_One> is it ever un striped???
<ravenswolf> lol since when do bot's have $$$
<jen{SE}> ahhh the potatoe head sub, pick all the parts ya like an put them together
<jen{SE}> occasionally KO *lol*
<redfox> heehee
<redfox> well, me thinks that if the perfect sub had the qualities, he/she might be mindless - there is always at least one thing missing
<DarkAngel{rt}> I like a pretty face ,,, but there also has to be some thoughts in that head ,,, otherwise I would become bored
* BernieRoehl agrees with DA
<redfox> k, we covered physical attributes, but it is more than that
<jen{SE}> okay a little on the more serious side, in reality what do each of You Dominants expect from a submissive?
<redfox> i believe in instincts
<jen{SE}> ahh, but you have to take the time to get to know them first *lol*
<redfox> first impressions too jen
<redfox> i know i try to 'shake down' a Dom when chatting
* jen{SE} warns the Dominants not say housework, cause i already got beat up over that one, submissives don't have to do housework *lol*
<Sweet1`> lol
<redfox> consistancy is important
<_cassie> Consistency is crucial.
<redfox> absolutely
<redfox> how else do you form trust
<_cassie> But so is a bit of flexibility.
<DarkAngel{rt}> I look for someone who is good ,,, has a good head on her shoulders ,, smart,, and is serious in exploring her submission at my feet
<Skyhawk7> DOM/sub is 24/7........
<Kilted_One> what does that mean cassie??......if women have hormone cycles (and I have heard that they doo) then do they not have different moods throughout the month, do you not think that this causes differnet reactions to their partners??
<jen{SE}> okay my two sense to me a good sub performs a service, a good Dominant guides and controls and expands the service
* jen{SE} cycles, cycles, we have cycles, ahh ya, my bicycle
<redfox> KO, time makes the relationship flow
<_cassie> Well, yes... but expectations, approach, etc. can all be consistent while also allowing for moods, bad days, being overtired, being hormonal, etc.
<jen{SE}> two way street there cassie, Dominants have bad days too....
<redfox> an unstable sub, would not work well with a high need Dom
<redfox> agreed jen
<_cassie> oh I wasn't talking only about subs... both people can have bad days, and you have to allow for that.
<ravenswolf> so is that flexibility or just consideration and alertness?
<redfox> all three ravenswolf
<_cassie> Well, perhaps I'm comign at this from the viewpoint of a relative newbie, so flexibility is something I need at this point.
<Skyhawk7> and the "real world" enters the picture from time to time......
<redfox> the Dom needs to be intune with their sub, again, it is a learning curve
<redfox> and if either partner has responsibilities, they become part of the deal
<redfox> job, kids, etc....can add a wrinkle to all best layed plans
<Skyhawk7> a good Dom does what is best and necessary for the well being a sub
<ravenswolf> doesn't that place unreasonable expectations on the Dom?
<Sweet1`> this is where the balance comes in...balance between evil and sensual, between strict protocol and flexibility, between ssc and walking the edge, between vanilla and bdsm
<redfox> as it would to the sub
<Sweet1`> etc
<Skyhawk7> both sub and Dom have mutual responsibilities
<Kilted_One> 'nilla and D/s??
<Sweet1`> we all live work in the nilla world
<redfox> absolutely
<Skyhawk7> the Dom is expected to exercise wise informed judgements
<slave_earl> would love to hear about the responsibilities of a sub
<redfox> lol
<redfox> mine were simple
<redfox> everything
<slave_earl> he who makes the decisions must assume the responsibility
<`abi> a submissive has many responsibilities earl ... to themselves and to their Dominant
* _cassie agrees with abi
<Skyhawk7> both sub and Dom make many decisions .......and assume responsibility.....whether they believe so ....or not
* _dove agrees with Skyhawk
<jen{SE}> was once told by a Dominant, i could not serve the Dominant if i did not take responsibity for myself first
<Skyhawk7> a good sub must be responsible for herself first........
<_cassie> a sub has a responsibility to be honest and communicate things - appropriately.
<Cassity^> I dont beleive there is ever a time one is not responsible for themselves..
<Cassity^> we always have to be accountable for our actions etc..
<Skyhawk7> exactly Cassity^....
<ravenswolf> i agree Cassity
* Sweet1` grins...the flip side is also true jen, the dom is not much good if he can't look after his own responsibilities first too
<jen{SE}> *lol*, ohhh toooooooo true Sweet1`
<slave_earl> you can only assume responsibility for those decisions which you personally make, the more decisions you Dom/me make for you the more responsibility they take on and the less the sub has
<Skyhawk7> for sure Sweet1`.......a sub must respect the Dom........a Dom must be most responsible
<Mzz_Eva> A Dom/me who can't control themselves can't control someone else
<_dove> The same can be said for a sub, MzzEva........ if there is no control of relinquish *s*
<slave_earl> it is part of the freedom of being a slave, the freedom from many responsibilities assumes by the Owner
<Skyhawk7> a good Dom seeks a sub who is worthy of mutual respect ....understanding....fulfillment.....
<`abi> You always have the ultimate responsibility earl .. for your own physical safety and mental health ... every time you allow a Dominant to make a decision for you, you are accepting that responsibility
<Mzz_Eva> Agreed
<_dove> i disagree earl....... we are still responsible individuals, we don't turn into automons
<ravenswolf> is that not what safe words are? a reinforcement of our responsibility to ourselves?
<jen{SE}> you always have responsibilties earl, even if it is just the responsibilty to obey your Master
<slave_earl> if this slave did everything Mistress to;d him to do and She did not have a good time is it his responsibility, No, it is Hers
<Kilted_One> the Dom maybe responsible but it does absolve the submissive from it eitehr
<Skyhawk7> a Dom will assume responsibilities for a is an exchange.....based upon mutual understandings...and needs
<_dove> Then you *do* have responsibilties earl
<Mzz_Eva> and the contracted or discussed exchange
<Sweet1`> the responsibilities change, they don't disappear
<ravenswolf> it's a partnership - each has his/her repsonsibilities/roles/needs
<slave_earl> it is a fact that the one who makes the decisions MUST be responsible for them, no exceptions even for Dom's no matter hard hard they complain
<Skyhawk7> Dom/sub is an ongoing growing partnership
<lil^tigress> every one has responsibility for themselves and their partner.. whether or not they are playing or in vanilla mode .. their health their own happiness as well as their partners.. it takes two to make a relationship work not just one assuming all the responsibilities
<ravenswolf> so you're saying that if your Dom takes somethign too far - you are relieved of the responsibility of crying halt because they are a Dom?
<jen{SE}> disagree slave_earl, if you have information that could help your dominant make a better decision are you not obligated to share that information vs oh well let the Master screw up, i just did as i was told
<_dove> The key word is a partnership.........
<slave_earl> Skyhawk, it most definitly is not a partnership, that would imply equals and that would have sent my Mistress through the roof to imply any such thing
<_dove> blinds
<_dove> blinks too
<_cassie> partnerships don't need to be equal to work.
<Sweet1`> you are equal in having your needs met slave_earl, it may not seem equal in how those needs are met
<Mzz_Eva> relationship
<Skyhawk7> in any relationship.....on some levels partners are equal......whether they admit it or not.....
<slave_earl> it may be a team, but not a partnership, there is a great difference
<lil^tigress> right .. partnerships take both accepting responsibilities... it takes two to make a or any relationship work not just one
<_dove> Sorry slave earl, to me it is very much a partnership
<slave_earl> and partnerships never work well, but teams do
<_dove> The very basis of power exchange promotes a partnership. If it is a one way street, there is no exchange
<Skyhawk7> exactly dove
<DarkAngel{rt}> sounds like slave_earl has a diferent way of looking at it that some others ,,, but as long as those within his relationship agree on the terms and structures ,,, it is just as correct as others
<slave_earl> the very basis of power exchange negates the true nature of a partnership in favor of a team
<lil^tigress> slave_earl... do you not give your power to your Mistress.. if so hence... power exchange..
<`abi> a power exchanges recognizes the equality of the exchange
<ravenswolf> i suppose a discussion on symantics is a good way to illustrate that there is no one defination of a good sub/Dom or of a D/s relationship
<_dove> thank you abi
<slave_earl> the power exchange give power to one over the other, with that power comes the responsibility, it goes with the power
<Skyhawk7> a power exchange is far from a team effort......
<DarkAngel{rt}> I agree ravenswolf ,,, at least not on definition that will work for all relationships
<Skyhawk7> that is like a contradiction slave_earl
<Kilted_One> "partners" dont have to be equal at all, in fact there are a lot of bussinesses out there where there is one parner more Dom that the other and holds more that 50% interest and makes all of the decisions
<slave_earl> Skyhawk7, that sound like the sound of one hand clapping
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<redfox> personally, i think that i would want the Dom to have the upperhand in a relationship for the power exchange or partnership
<_dove> One cannot dominate without someone willing to submit, and vice versa....... Sounds like two halves of a whole to me
<`abi> yes earl ... it takes two equal hands to clap
<Johncin> exactly dove
<DarkAngel{rt}> or one hand and a nice butt
<`abi> that works too DA ;)
<Sweet1`> lol
<lil^tigress> yes with Aaron and I .. he has the upper hand.. but he also is interested enough in my own pleasure and enjoyment of what is occuring to change things if those same things are not working in harmony... the same as I do ...
<_dove> lol
<Skyhawk7> in a Dom/sub relationship one partner is recognized as having an "upper hand".....slave earl
<Skyhawk7> celebrations are not recognized by the mere clapping of hands......
<slave_earl> an upper hand sound a bit weak, THE upper hand
<yummy> i'm less concerned in the equality or lack of equality than how it works for the two parties in the relationship
<Skyhawk7> it works knowing and understanding each other.....and providing what both need.....
<yummy> well yes Skyhawk7 that was my point
<slave_earl> yummy, was talking about a total power exchange, not an equal relationship
<yummy> its equal because both get what they need, each have their needs met equally
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informallly. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<Skyhawk7> the power between the two is never equal