August 8 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

* BernieRoehl crosses his fingers that the net will stay intact for the next hour
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's 9 pm and time for our regular Sunday night discussion
<BernieRoehl> Just a couple of reminders before we start...
<BernieRoehl> First, we ask that everyone refrain from "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm.
<BernieRoehl> Second, please remember that the discussion is logged and posted on the EhBC web site.
* Kilted_One has put that in the auto msg Bernie
<BernieRoehl> If you wish to remain anonymous but still participate in the discussion, just use a different nick.
<BernieRoehl> Thanks!
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, Kilted_One.
* Kilted_One has NOT put the loggin info in the msg though
* vixen{KO} stumbles back in...and begs apologies...
<BernieRoehl> Tonight's discussion topic is a sensitive one for many people.  I would ask that everyone respect different peoples' choices, regardless of whether or not you agree with them.
<BernieRoehl> The topic is "Having a D/s Relationship Outside of a Vanilla Marriage".
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any initial comments?
-> [#bdsm-kw] PING
<BernieRoehl> Apparently not.  :-)
* jalyn grins
<^llara^> lol
<Kilted_One> is there any here that fits this description??
<win`song> I'll start for me............ there is a BIG difference between being "vanilla" and just wanting your sex life to be private
<en{TW}> umm...maybe we could include other intimate vanilla relationships?
<vixen{KO}> perhaps just that to start things off....the word of the hour is just as you said, Bernie...."sensitive"
* ^llara^ raises her hand...i did at one time
* `lucius would like to know if this has worked for any here.
* vixen{KO} had it work for a while...
<BernieRoehl> Perhaps those who have been in that situation can comment on how it came to be, and what some of the difficulties were.
<en{TW}> i have been in the situation
<^llara^> but walked away from my life together...for myself....before i persued the D/s relationship any further
<chaosbitch> I have been in the situation.
<en{TW}> difficulty was honesty
<jalyn> I remember a time when i was married...but went looking for a D/s relationship or even play at the time...and found nothing or nowhere to turn and went back to being unhappy until I still looking
<BernieRoehl> You mean being honest with both partners, en?
<en{TW}> both vanilla partners being honest about being ok or not ok with it...and about their feelings, early enough
<ti`mara> that is if the other in the vanilla relationship knows what is going on
<vixen{KO}> for me the biggest difficulties were that having stifled my deepest desires for a decade meant that once i started delving back into them, i got greedy....typical newbie kinda reaction...."MORE, MORE, MORE...."
<en{TW}> it's hard to say....this is great!  or this is really tough!  when you want it to work so badly
<BernieRoehl> That's an important point, ti`mara.  Some people tell their spouse, others don't.  Either way is hard.
<BernieRoehl> Net split...
<ti`mara> here we go
<BernieRoehl> Let's keep going, they're rejoin us soon
<en{TW}> the big first question everyone cool with polygomy...whether the D/s relationship is intending to be sexual or not
* `lucius found his own marrige ended when he wanted to pursue certain things
<en{TW}> good point lucius...and what am i willing to give up
<ti`mara> i had the same problem lucius
<Kirspin> If the Vanilla marriage is not working, like no Sexual activity, no love a tall then why not try to do your own thing outside of it
* ^llara^ sits quietly and listens ...
<en{TW}> many times the vanilla is just fine
<vixen{KO}> yes en{TW}....polygomy is very important to many in maintaining this kinda relationship
<`lucius> I think polygomy is great for those that want it...but some simply can't handle it.
<en{TW}> just that the interest in D/s s/m or whatever the case is...isn't there
<jalyn> and if the marriage is not working...why stay at all?
<ti`mara> then why are you staying in it Kispin any relationship you have to be happy in wether it be vanilla or otherwise
<en{TW}> absolutely lucius
<lyxanna> maybe sex isn't what happiness in a marriage is based on
<en{TW}> but all partners must be honest about what they are ok with, they think they are, think they may be...etc...and follow up along the way...constanstly
<lyxanna> maybe the marriage is fine, but there is this other thing that needs exploring
<win`song> certainly a marriage is MORE than SEX!
<win`song> or should be!
<^^panache^^> Hello Dom(mes) and fellow subs
<`lucius> even tho' I wanted her to be happy, I could not be happy myself without the freedom to explore my needs.
* vixen{KO} hears you jalyn....that finally came up with just got to the point where the lifestyle was such a big part of who i am, that staying in the vanilla for the kids sake just wasn't enough
<Kirspin> WELL each case is different,I guess after a  long marriage, one is like in a comfortable pew, not happy but but not that unhappy either, but there is always the tempation to find something else
<chaosbitch> I found the opposite lucious, my husband was very supportive of my interest. He was just not going to help me out with it. So with his knowledge i went outside the marriage to explore...not really looking for a Dom/me at first but for information...Now....a lot later...he is slowly becoming involved...but only after realizing that S/M was not a phase for me.
<en{TW}> yep...the "it's a phase" thing is really tough
<en{TW}> often not only do the vanilla partner think that, but also/or the kinky one
<`lucius> ours was the opposite of that chaos...she knew and played along at first...then attempted to 'break' me of it.
<en{TW}> it becomes a real struggle
<vixen{KO}> ex is now into the lifestyle too....shocked the bejeebers outta me...
<vixen{KO}> but it was too little too late.
<chaosbitch> I was lucky vixen...i am not putting everything on the line but i hope things work well for us...i am not putting any heavy thoughts on him and am trying to let hime find his own way
* `lucius wonders, "is it best to go outside behind thier backs...or try to prearrange it first?"
* vixen{KO} wishes you the best is a precarious path to travel
<BernieRoehl> I think that's a key question, lucius.
<BernieRoehl> I know people who have told their spouses, and suffered a great deal as a result.
* vixen{KO} NEVER went behind his was too important to me that he know right off the bat....that way he new how serious my intent was
<BernieRoehl> I know others who tried to hide it, and faced even worse problems when they eventually discussed it.
<ti`mara> but if you don't tell them isn't that the same as cheating
<leracked> lol vixen!
<chaosbitch> yes it is ti mara
<`lucius> that's what I would think ti`mara
<BernieRoehl> There is one difference, ti`mara...
<`lucius> ..but it would take a pretty strong relationship to handle an outside interest.
<ti`mara> so then if it is your wish to discover your wants and needs then you should be open and honest and be prepared for the outcome
<BernieRoehl> If there are (for example) custody battles, the partner with the D/s interest is much more likely to lose.
<chaosbitch> yes it does lucius
<chaosbitch> that is true Bernie...but if there is a cutody battle is the relationship not already over?
<BernieRoehl> Married people have affairs all the time.  Having a D/s relationship outside of a marriage is still relatively rare.
<`lucius> I would wonder if it would improve the sex between the couple, or would it just drop off completely...
<BernieRoehl> Yes, certainly, chaosbitch.
<`lucius> that you are getting what you really want...could you still be satisfied with what you had before?
<chaosbitch> It can do both...
<Zephyr_Toronto> Good evening, folks.
<Kirspin> In my case, Sex dropped off and out compeltely many years ago
<`lucius> What about couples that try this together?  I often thought that would be interesting.
<BernieRoehl> So if someone decides that they do want to be open about it with their spouse, what's the best way to raise the subject?
<chaosbitch> Personally i found that i was not having sex with my Husband...we had come to a point in our relationship were we were more roommates then lovers or husband wife...
<ti`mara> if the vanilla relationship is good they have great communication already so i would say just come out and tell them what your wants and needs are
<Kirspin> room mates is a an excellent term!
<en{TW}> i just told my partner
<chaosbitch> it may be an excellent term...but it's like living in between heaven and hell..
<`lucius> You'd really be tossing the dice to raise the issue, especialy if it's never been talked about before.
<jalyn> I think if I managed to find that outside D/s relationship outside of my marriage at the time...I would have kept it up until I was ready to leave, and the sex would definately drop off with my husband...however I would have to end the conscience would eat me alive to contine dishonestly
<`lucius> my ex discovered my interests before we spying on my 'private' moments.
<Kirspin> Theree are some of us that dont want a Sexual D's relationship, but we do like the kink connected with the D's relationship!
<BernieRoehl> Has anyone here had a bad experience with telling a spouse?
<chaosbitch> I was lucky in that Bernie...he was very understanding.
<TheWolfe> or a significant other?
<en{TW}> but the emotions shared between Dom/sub Top/bottom are still emotional or potentially so that the vanilla partner can feel just as threatened
<win`song> when I was originally told..I was very cold about the whole I am fine with took time and gentle persuasion 
<`lucius> that was when it fell apart for us en...when I discovered the net, and that I wasn't alone..she felt threatened
<chaosbitch> *s* Kirspin, when i first was looking for information i felt pretty strongly that sex had nothing to do with SM....oh god was i may not have to be sex...but the emotion is identical
<en{TW}> my partner at the time was mostly ok with my interest...then eventually grew to accept we explored together....slowly
<en{TW}> it wasn't that big a deal for me
<BernieRoehl> And what about the other side -- not telling the spouse?  Has anyone had any experiences (good or bad) with that?
<vixen{KO}> agreed chaos....the emotional is very strong....and they do say that the best sex is in the brain anyway...
<en{TW}> very true vixen
* en{TW} never didn't tell anyone
<abigaille> I think sometimes it's the wisest choice
<vixen{KO}> it's certainly a harder avenue to enjoy the lifestyle, i should surmise...
<chaosbitch> I have never not told Bernie...S and i have that kinda a relationship
<Kirspin> In my case the SO is entirely not interested at all, she know I attend Munches and doesnt care one iota!very disinterested in what I do all the time
<^llara^> so then......why not wrap up the relationship you are in now......then move on to persue what you need or what in your life?
<chaosbitch> Too comfortable?
* vixen{KO} akins not telling an SO to dating two boyz at the same time, back in highschool....LOL
* chaosbitch grins at vixen
<Kirspin> In my case I have a joint business operation, its not so easy to break that up
<win`song> but Kirspin ??? what came first.the chicken or the egg?
<en{TW}> i think, unless bdsm IS a passing phase for you...not telling is just denial that won't last long
<BernieRoehl> In other cases there are kids involved, or financial issues.  People stay married for many reasons, it seems.
<win`song> is she hurt and feels dejected..or is she angry and will make you pay?
<vixen{KO}> agreed en{TW}
<vixen{KO}> it's like lying to yourself...
<^llara^> don't a firm believer in taking care of what is now......fix with it....if it can't..move on.....
<en{TW}> agreed llara
<^llara^> only because of what i experienced maybe
<abigaille> I disagree en...I think it depends on the extent to which BDSM is a need in your is different for everyone...
<^llara^> it rubbed salt in a wound
<^llara^> that was not necessary
<TheWolfe> I am involved in 2 long term relationships
<leracked> i agree abigaille..
<^llara^> and caused more harm....and hurtful feelings than what was necessary
<en{TW}> yes, that's what i meant by passing phase...i should rephrase...if bdsm isn't crucial
<TheWolfe> one is to someone I have been married to for 18 years
<abigaille> it can be a need en...but so all-encompassing a need that it negates the other things which are working in a relationship
<^llara^> i guess the diff for didn't leave for BDSM......i left cause it was the best thing to do
<BernieRoehl> Many people find that they've always had an interest in BDSM, but it isn't until they're older and married and raising children that they finally have the courage to explore it.
<vixen{KO}> having BDSM in your current relationship and/or an outside just like plain ole vanilla....everyone plays it differently...variety is, after all...
<vixen{KO}> different strokes and all that....
<BernieRoehl> At that point, the consequences of ending the marriage are so great that it really isn't an option for them.
<en{TW}> i DO understand that Bernie
<BernieRoehl> (sorry, en... wasn't directing that at you...)
<Kirspin> Exactly Bernie
<en{TW}> i know...i'm just agreeeing :)
* BernieRoehl smiles
<lyxanna> TW, how has it worked so well...i mean how do you keep it all straight
<en{TW}> i didn't leave my former relationship because of s/m either...but whatever the IS a BIG step
<^llara^> oh yes...very true
<TheWolfe> we are soulmates
* en{TW} smiles
<abigaille> I think that people have an obligation to fulfill themselves...sometimes it's possible to do that without leaving a relationship..sometimes it isn't
<TheWolfe> we communicate
<lyxanna> i mean in both relationships
<TheWolfe> everyone knows the situation
<TheWolfe> this is not a passing phase or a fling
<leracked> what about keeping it from your mate abigaille?
<en{TW}> it's not always perfectly easy and simple though
<BernieRoehl> Yes, TW -- if one can be that open, and everyone understands and communicates, that's definitely the best solution.
<vixen{KO}> agreed....pulling both lifestyles off is different whether it's crucially a part of you or whether it's just a passing fancy...or an experimentation stage
<lyxanna> are there ever problems with jealousy?...
<TheWolfe> *smile* that is not to say that there are not conflicts from time to time
<en{TW}> also...TW's wife understands D/s
<en{TW}> THAT is a big important part too
<lyxanna> and do you ever feel...pulled in to many directions TW?
<TheWolfe> sure lyx
<abigaille> again depends on the situation...sometimes keeping it separate is the best choice..for everyone...sometimes it isn't...obviously if openness is an option, it's the best one..but it isn't always an option
<chaosbitch> i have to say that TW's wife is awsome :)   (as is pretty well everyone in His life it seems...even furry four footers)
* en{TW} giggles
* leracked smiles
<TheWolfe> thx bitch
<Kilted_One> SWEAR WORD DETECTED No swearing allowed on #bdsm-kw
<chaosbitch> lol
<Kilted_One> opps
<^llara^> rofl
<lyxanna> lol
<^llara^> hehehe
<lyxanna> oooops
<en{TW}> lol
<^llara^> LOL
* chaosbitch giggles
<TheWolfe> yeesh
<jalyn> lol
<Kilted_One> sorry bout that
<`lucius> no swearing?
<lyxanna> it is all chaos' fault
<^llara^> gotta love scripts
<Kilted_One> taken off
<chaos^witch> there
<TheWolfe> that's swaring??  
* vixen{KO} nudges KO as he shuts down that little part of the program...
<lyxanna> lol
<chaos^witch> not to be mistaken with switch
<TheWolfe> anyway
<en{TW}> if i ever thought that TW's wife felt less because of me, i couldn't handle it...
<vixen{KO}> lol
<en{TW}> or if i felt that way
<chaos^witch> i know how you feel en :)
* en{TW} smiles at chaos
<TheWolfe> Kat & I started DSSG a long time ago
<en{TW}> woohoo!  She's got a name...i was feeling bad calling her TW's wife
* chaos^witch grins
<TheWolfe> both being Dominant, we sought out submissives
<lyxanna> lol
<lyxanna> now how does that work?
<lyxanna> 2 dominants
<vixen{KO}> oy.....that's another whole kettle of fish, eh?
<keyna> hi A/all
<BernieRoehl> Another topic, I suspect.  :-)
<BernieRoehl> So I think we can all agree that the situation TW describes is the best way to go -- when it's possible.
<lyxanna> ooops sorry
<en{TW}> but we are still talking two married people
<en{TW}> who share a vanilla relationship
<BernieRoehl> When it's not... what are the options?  (keeping in mind that every relationship is different)
<TheWolfe> exactly en 
<Kirspin> You can be married but you dont have to be"dead"
<en{TW}> although the basic understanding of bdsm is still has most of the same problems etc...
<lyxanna> i don't think it is fair to say that if one doesn't tell their partner, it makes them "less" than those that to share
<en{TW}> i agree lyx
<BernieRoehl> Agreed, lyxanna.
<chaos^witch> me too
<TheWolfe> or because we both enjoy the lifestyle, of course it works gor them 
<TheWolfe> gor...freudian slip, meant for
<BernieRoehl> Actually, gor is next week's topic.  :-)
<en{TW}> lol
<chaos^witch> people do and do not tell for many reasons...none or which anyone can say are right are wrong
<lyxanna> i mean...sure, you don't have to worry about out-and-out jealousy or missunderstandings
<lyxanna> but how do you manage keeping that side of you secret?
<TheWolfe> agreed "w"-itch
<Kirspin> Very carefully 
<abigaille> I think people view it as a price to be paid lyx
* Kilted_One whistles and politly says that the script has been turned off
* chaos^witch grins at KO
<BernieRoehl> For some people, it means exploring D/s only online.
<Johncin> so true Bernie
<BernieRoehl> Now... regardless of whether someone tells their spouse or not...
<BernieRoehl> Does having a separate D/s relationship threaten the marriage?
<vixen{KO}> and that's another kettle Bernie.....Virtual Lifestyle vs the Real Thang...
<Kilted_One> could you realte that to fantacy in a book say....but taken to a new level with modern techno???
<en{TW}> i have actually heard of a few heterosexuals who only play in D/s with another of the same as not to threaten their vanilla partner 
<abigaille> rather depends on the marriage I'd say Bernie
<TheWolfe> it can strain it
<lyxanna> and on the people involved i would say
<chaosbitch> LOL
<en{TW}> it doesn't always
<chaosbitch> My husband was all for that i know how that is
<TheWolfe> the same way spending too much time at work or *shudder* on the golf course could
<`lucius> my ex had serious problems with my bisexual side
<`lucius> that would never have worked with us.
<abigaille> any time you add additional people to a relationship it complicates...whether or not there is have to be prepared for that
<en{TW}> but sometimes there are ways to make it a bit easier on your spouse or SO
<en{TW}> that can also be worse than not playing...if it isn't satisfying
<en{TW}> it always complicates...but that isn't necessarily all negatively
* vixen{KO} can identify lucius....
<lyxanna> ummm, quick question
<lyxanna> what is SO
<abigaille> that's true en
<Kilted_One> sig other
<en{TW}> significant other (for those of us who aren't weren't married)
<lyxanna> thanks
<TheWolfe> here's another question:
<TheWolfe> if I may:
<BernieRoehl> Go ahead, TW.
* Kilted_One makes sure the script is turned off again just to be sure lol
<TheWolfe> how do others view people in the lifestyle who have a vanilla relationship ?
<TheWolfe> lol KO
<abigaille> but if partners aren't prepared to deal with potential negative fallout, then they aren't being realistic...because it's always a very real possibility 
* vixen{KO} thinks they need a pat on the back for being able to pull it off....
* BernieRoehl tends to agree with vixen
<en{TW}> i have found most are shocked...
* Kilted_One thinks about that and says....sees then like a juggler....tough job....
<en{TW}> and happy 
<en{TW}> and many think i'm lying when i say it works really well
<en{TW}> and others judge it based on the polygomy thing
<en{TW}> others see the kinky of the marriage as "selfish"
<Kilted_One> to be fully open TW I didnt know that you had till you disclosed tonight and I dont see you or en any different
<en{TW}> and the vanilla as too weak to complain
<en{TW}> but as i said...most seem to think it's cool :)
<TheWolfe> we are much too civil this evening *smile*
<en{TW}> and as for the third party...well...i have also been told i am too weak to complain, that i'm settling
<chaosbitch> That is not the thing in our house....*giggling* i think he is more selfish *s* and he knows i feel that way
<BernieRoehl> I'm really impressed with how well things are working for TW, en, and their respectives spouses.
<Kilted_One> all cept the odd kick
<en{TW}> *sighs*
* en{TW} hasn't a respective spouse :)
<chaosbitch> you are settling??
<TheWolfe> some think that the ultimate goal is marriage
* abigaille smiles at en...having encountered the "what are you, crazy?" attitude herself more than once :)
<BernieRoehl> I would have to say, though, that their relationship(s) are the exception, not the rule.  For most people, it seems to be a really tough road.
<en{TW}> settling for being TW's "second"
<en{TW}> yes it does seem that way Bernie
* Kilted_One smiles at abigaille and knows she is krazzzy cause we also know Dukey :)))
<chaosbitch> mmhmm i see 
* abigaille smiles at KO..yes KO...that's usually my response :)
<en{TW}> i think because i am not married or in another relationship...people think i am getting the short end of the stick
<abigaille> but do you en?
<en{TW}> not at all
<abigaille> then that's what's important
<en{TW}> i share more with TW than i ever did with anyone else
<chaosbitch> well said abi
<en{TW}> in every area
* BernieRoehl nods in agreement with abi
<en{TW}> but that is what people assume
<en{TW}> lol...that i am TW's sexkitten
<en{TW}> and that's it
<Kilted_One> in or out of the life style en??
<en{TW}> not people who know us
<chaosbitch> some people cannot see beyond there relationship...even in this OPENminded area of kink
<abigaille> you mean you arent?
<en{TW}> well....i am...including many other things ;)
<abigaille> :)
* vixen{KO} nudges abi
<en{TW}> we share a friendship, love, everything
<en{TW}> and the D/s 
* BernieRoehl hands en a bag of sexkitten treats
<en{TW}> we spend the afternoon at Pioneer Village with my kids!
<BernieRoehl> And that's the best way, en -- sharing love, friendship, D/s and everything else.
<en{TW}> yum...thanks Bernie
* BernieRoehl laughs
<en{TW}> so i'm not settling for seconds
<en{TW}> LOL
<leracked> lol
<en{TW}> but on the other hand...
<BernieRoehl> Speaking of which... the formal part of the discussion is just about over.
<BernieRoehl> Anyone have any last-minute comments?
<en{TW}> if that IS what a person wants...jut a D/s relationship outside of their marriage...than that is just as valid
<Kirspin> Touched some good points
* vixen{KO} thinks anyone that tries having both kinds of relationships should all be given one of those long balancing poles that circus goomerz use...
* jalyn grins and agrees
<BernieRoehl> Or those sticks with plates spinning on them, that you have to keep re-spinning to keep them from falling.
<vixen{KO}> good one Bernie...
* vixen{KO} bows to being bettered by the best.
<en{TW}> we use the canes
<Kilted_One> would like to thank TW and en for sharing some of their inner secrets with us tonight....I'm sure it is not easy doing this
* BernieRoehl laugsh
<TheWolfe> much simpler than that..don't lie & then you don't have to try to remember what you said to whom
<BernieRoehl> And I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this very difficult topic.
* en{TW} smiles, You're welcome
<chaosbitch> true TW
<Kilted_One> are you intimating that our lifestyle is a bit of a circus??
<vixen{KO}> thanks to Bernie for a juggling act well managed this eve...
<leracked> thanks A/all!
<BernieRoehl> Thanks, vixen!
<en{TW}> thanks for a really good topic
<Kilted_One> ty Bernie...
<BernieRoehl> And for those who are wondering... Next week's topic is Gorean relationships, hosted by none other than Kilted_One and vixen.
* jalyn smiles
<en{TW}> now....i have an offtopic question...
* vixen{KO} snaps to nadu...
<en{TW}> is xi a word?
* jalyn falls to her knees, thighs parted