July 30 2000 EhBC Online Discussion

<^trufriend> so...before tonights discussion....are there any 'normal' people here?
<kathryn_kw> hasnt started yet
<kathryn_kw> lol i hope not tru :)
<kirby{NM}> oh ok.. :)
<`shado> Normal: Conforming to type or natural law...Natural: In accordance with; belonging to, or derived from nature...Nature: The world, the universe, known or unknown...Unknown: incalculable; unexplored regions of the mind...Mind: To obey; to attend to; to heed; to take care of...Sounds like a submissive to me so i must be *normal* :)
* kirby{NM} is normal...noone else is
* ThBear is normal everyone else is messed up
<slut^kat> with a name like slut^kat you think i got a chance of being normal?
<kathryn_kw> you have our deepest sumpathy :)
<ThBear> lol
<kathryn_kw> :)
<^trufriend> hehe
<^trufriend> no Bear, You're 'all right'...
<ThBear> actually i am all "RIGHT" the other side left
<^trufriend> beat Ya to it!
<^trufriend> lol
<ThBear> lol tru you beat me to it
<Lotta_Skull> peeking in ....hello A/all ....MY Kat's a slut seem's normal to ME *G*
<^trufriend> ROTF
<ThBear> again
<kirby{NM}> so what is the discussion on tonight?
<slut^kat> lol@ Lotta_Skull
<`shado> July 30, 2000 -- "What is 'Normal'?", moderated by trufriend
<slut^kat> tis normal fer ME
<kathryn_kw> subs domming doms.. turnabout is fair play
<kathryn_kw> ducking i am :)
<^trufriend> thanks kat...i couldn't type fast enuff!
<kirby{NM}> k well i'm normal so i guess i can go now hehe
<^trufriend> i mean shado
<^trufriend> lol
<kathryn_kw> h,mm guess i scared him away :)
<kirby{NM}> does A/anyone mind if i bounce around for a second?
* dalian likes bouncing
<^trufriend> does bouncing help kirby?
<kathryn_kw> lol and quivering and spasms and :)
<kirby{NM}> sometimes
<slut^kat> perhaps bouncing = normal for kirby{NM}?
<luvs2btied> true! *hugs*
<^trufriend> yes?
* dalian thinks kath better behave herself
* kirby{NM} bounces on her bouncing ball and hits her head on the channel ceiling...ouch!
<kathryn_kw> pout :)
<kathryn_kw> but thats not " normal " weg
<slut^kat> the channel has a ceiling?
<kirby{NM}> owwwww....k i'm grounded now...much better
<I`MAX> hello all
<kathryn_kw> hi IMax
<kirby{NM}> oh yes definitely has a ceiling...
<Sweetone{LT}> is there a need to define normal?? if so why??
<I`MAX> and why would anyone ever want to be NORMAL
<kathryn_kw> lol
<kathryn_kw> exactly IMAX
<kirby{NM}> i think that society demands that we not only define normal but conform to the majority belief in what normal is
<kirby{NM}> not that i agree with the majority though
<^trufriend> i think we're close enuff to 9:00 now...so if nobody objects, i think we can get started on tonight's discussion...."what IS normal?"
<becky> but is there a majority belief really.... and who is is define more normal than Yoy/you or i and can say... normal is just all shades of grey... we are all unique... normal yet not... thats life .. rather the spice of life that keeps it all interesting...
<becky> and man wish i could type "normal"
<becky> lol
<^trufriend> shado has given us a wonderful definition of what it is....but i would like to hear what each of you think 'normal' is, pertaining to your own lives and the lives of those around you
<kathryn_kw> two different definitions.. personal and society
<kirby{NM}> i think that maybe as the world ages normal is a state of mind for each individual...
<dalian> i really have no definition as i see everything unique to its environment and circumstance
<becky> one persons defination of normal isn't necessarly normal either since we all hold normal to be different *shrug*
<kathryn_kw> thats the uniqueness
<Chiaroscuro{a}> in the context of this discussion, Artemesia and I are wondering what the standard practises are within the bdsm community (if there are any)
* kirby{NM} has a mother who is a lesbian who sees who lifestyle as abnormal :)
<kirby{NM}> respect if not standard...should be
<Chiaroscuro{a}> respect above all is essential.
<cassity_30> i agree...
<Sweetone{LT}> manners should be a common practice
<kirby{NM}> i also think that an open mind is essential...to each individual's life as well as to others
<kathryn_kw> it " should be " that may be an ideal but often its not like that
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I agree with Sweetone{LT}.. on that one...
<^trufriend> so essentially what is 'normal' in the practices of the world and life of bdsm? in other words i think, what is expected, what is accepted, what is desired...with those in the lifestyle and those on the outside
<kathryn_kw> real can of worms here me thinks :)
<Chiaroscuro{a}> i think there is pretty solid agreement that being open to everyone's opinions within the community is the base idea... norm or not norm... does even the definition of normal have any purpose in this community
<kirby{NM}> i believe that the only thing that is necessary is treating others with the respect you expect...respect covers alot of area...as for what is accepted...i'm still new at this :)
<fire^runner^> how can we define normal..when we all have different limitatins..different needs wants and desire is we look at Marslow hierarchy of needs..what I consider essential and normal may not be the same to any one else here..so to try and define it is ridiculous...normal exisit within ourselves...a child coming from an abused home..thinks it is NORMAL to see the abuse...a child coming from a rich home thinks it is normal to have there every wish...
<crysania-jen> normal is what happens between two consenting adults that they deem is pleasurable for them
<TheWolfe> shortest discussion to date lol
<cassity_30> normal is whatever Y/you feel inside
<^trufriend> that's what i would like to see here though, what is normal to each of us? is there any common ground?
<Sweetone{LT}> i think what the heirarchy is referring to is common needs, ie food, shelter etc...perhaps its at the top of the list are things that may differ
<Chiaroscuro{a}> for me normal is what I've already tried/done... :)
<kirby{NM}> but what i desire is more openness...more ppl talking about thier lives...how they live day to day
<crysania-jen> normal imo is what is not forced on anyone else, if i do not personally like
what you do, then it is my choice not to participate
<kirby{NM}> love...tenderness...and an occasional swat on the ass
<Sweetone{LT}> or rather the interpretation may differ
<kirby{NM}> :
<fire^runner^> yes crysania-jen but that does not mean it is not Normal for the ones who are doing it
<Sweetone{LT}> so why the need to define normal?
<crysania-jen> exactly, fire^runner^, i was not saying it was not normal to them, it is their choice
<Sweetone{LT}> everyone strives for independence and individuality...what then is normal?
<^trufriend> mainly because of what the media and people around us try to brainwash us into thinking normal is....
<kirby{NM}> if we define normal to include our standard and way of living are we not just as bad as the society we live in that tries to make us conform
<TheWolfe> who is making us conform?
<`abi> defining societal norms and suggesting that we all must adhere to them are not the same thing
<fire^runner^> i disagree tru we already have preconceived opinions before we watch the newscast..all they do is enforce those opinions...
<`abi> I'm pretty sure that 80% of the population is not spending their time the way I do ... that puts me outside the societal norm, but it doesn't mean that I shouldn't do it
<kirby{NM}> noone is...but society tries to...the stares and questions...most people do not see our lifestyle as normal
<crysania-jen> the social norms are a evolving thing, what was a social norm decades ago, is not the norm today
<kirby{NM}> i think this lifestyle is about returning to what the social norm was decades ago
<crysania-jen> social evolution will happen
<crysania-jen> it may not evolve the way i consider is norm for me, but it will evolve to what is norm for some
<^trufriend> "beating someone's ass isn't 'normal, it's abuse!", "being gay or lesbian isn't 'normal', it's sick!", "you live a sick perverted life, it isn't 'normal'!".....you're not going to tell me nobody's every heard anything like those
<`abi> don't quite agree with that kirby ... decades ago...to live in a D/s relationship wasn't a choice...that's quite different from *choosing* the lifestyle
<kirby{NM}> i think the social norms are not evolving...revolving maybe
<fire^runner^> i believe if you ask anyone fromoutside the community to define noraml you will get the same responses as you are receiving here
<kirby{NM}> i suppose that is true `abi...never looked at it that way
<TheWolfe> but that is a normal reaction ^trufriend
<crysania-jen> *lol*, @ Kirby, as i look at the kids today wearing what i used to wear years ago, you may have a point
<Chiaroscuro{a}> ^trufriend.. the type of people that would make statements such as those would probably consider anything other than missionary sex, abnormal
<^trufriend> right TheWolfe! so what IS normal?! who determines it? who abides by it? to us, those people are considered 'not normal'....
<Sweetone{LT}> a stat released in the US said that about 93% of the adult married population has experimented with spankings, does that make it normal?
<|Karen> where did that stat come from, Sweetone?
<TheWolfe> normal is an average
<`abi> not to the 7% who haven
<`abi> t
<^trufriend> may not be deemed normal, but it makes it more accepting....behind closed doors...
<kirby{NM}> ^trufriend: all of those things in the 1700's were normal...shakespeare..beethoven...
<TheWolfe> does normal necessarily mean accepted?
<Sweetone{LT}> i will look it up for you Karen
<crysania-jen> i would suspect the definition of spanking could be a very subjective one, a slight slap on the bottom, to a cane session
<^trufriend> that's what i am trying to get at, people seem to mistake the word 'normal' with the word 'accept'....
<kirby{NM}> men and women being gay and women getting spankings were normal back then...like i said revolving
<TheWolfe> casualties of war...a certain number of dead is normal or common but not
necessarily accepted as a good thing
<`abi> good question TW...but I don't think so ... I think "normal" may mean "expected"
<crysania-jen> i guess i just look at myself and ask does what i am doing feel right to me, if it does, it is normal
<Skyhawk1> normal is what is acceptable for a society to function and govern itself
<crysania-jen> to me
<TheWolfe> or are we using the term normal as one of psychological stability
<^trufriend> so normal is personal, not blanket? how do we get more to understand that?
<Sweetone{LT}> perhaps we should replace the word normal with responsible...responsible for ourselves, our family, our community, and our society...and if we all did that, that is a 'norm' i can accept
<Skyhawk1> personal mores and standards when kept within personal limits will be tolerated and even accepted
<_cyn_> is permission required to enter here?
<crysania-jen> no _cyn_ be welcome
<|Karen> no, _cyn_
<^trufriend> or do we need to help others understand the difference? can we be truly happy within ourselves with what we believe?
<`abi> normal is also contextual ... we have "normal" within our community as well
<kirby{NM}> crysania- if say your boss were to say to you i think if you screw up it is normal and feels right to me to turn you over my knee..is that normal?
<_cyn_> thank you, Greetings A/all
<`abi> that's how it happens where I work kirby :)
<Skyhawk1> if one is not happy with themselves then they are not doing what is right for them
<kirby{NM}> just because one sees thier life as normal it does not make it so...so *why* are we normal??
* crysania-jen thinks i need a new boss
<^trufriend> right abi, because it seems not to be normal within this lifestyle to have a Mentor or to be 'in training' without considering them to be our Dom/me
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I think that this is similar to the mainstream discussion a Sunday or two ago... what about common practises WITHIN the bdsm community... IS there any uniformity?
Even outside of such accepting groups as ehbc
<crysania-jen> and my earlier statement was between consenting adults, one does not decide what is normal for another
* `abi nods to tru ... and the same argument holds true....because it isn't "normal" by community standards, doesn't make it wrong
<kirby{NM}> being normal is not normal...
<Skyhawk1> good abi...each makes their own personal norms...acceptable behaviors
<`abi> normal does not = uniformally correct
<Chiaroscuro{a}> I'm not personally talking about correct or incorrect... merely, universalities...
<Chiaroscuro{a}> are there any obseved ones?
<`abi> I think where we go astray is when we try to attach a value judgement to "normal"
<Chiaroscuro{a}> from those who have more experience in the scene?
<dalian> just to put a spin on the coin...are there things that we would certainly consider as being abnormal?
<crysania-jen> oral sex is not normal for some either, smoking and drinking to others, it is still done, no different then D/s
<kirby{NM}> and each must find someone who agrees with thier idea of normal to share their life with
<_cyn_> well said kirby{NM}
<Skyhawk1> good kirby...it is a personal decision...personal choice and preference
<^trufriend> very well said kirby
<Chiaroscuro{a}> do most of those experienced bdsm people have an opinion on the Gorean approach?
<Chiaroscuro{a}> or any
* ^trufriend thinks that is for another discussion Chiaroscuro{a}
<_cyn_> Gorean , to me, in my opinion, is all fantasy based on a book . some like to think it true, but i dont see how it can be real. or made into real life
<Chiaroscuro{a}> alright,
<`abi> as it relates to universality Chiaroscuro{a}? ... no ... Gorean practise isn't universal within the BDSM community, but it is certainly one flavour of BDSM
<Skyhawk1> sometimes others get their kick out of having others blindly follow
<dalian> gorean to me is simply total power exchange...regardless of the books fantasy aspects
<_cyn_> well not A book , but several books, however its story based
<Chiaroscuro{a}> so then would this be an abnormality within the bdsm community (ie, not adopted by the majority - neither right nor wrong)
<^trufriend> so, 'normal' should remain a personal choice....how then do we fight the media's concept of what 'normal' should be?
<`abi> the media doesn't have a concept of normal tru...only of sensational
<Skyhawk1> you cannot fight the media...and must not be preoccupied with it
<Sweetone{LT}> Chiaroscuro{a}...there is a commonality in power exchange, that being that control is offered for responsible management. The degree and types of powers vary, but responsibility for the offered control remains.
<Chiaroscuro{a}> ^trufriend.. I don't think you can fight media's concept... only nudge it a little at a time
<^trufriend> ok, smaller scale...how do we deal with what our family's consider 'normal' behaviour to be?
<`abi> Chiaroscuro...I doubt that there is any one practice which is universal within BDSM....everything we do is going to squick someone
<^trufriend> how do we nudge then?
<Skyhawk1> just show your family that you are happy...fullfilled...satisfied
<crysania-jen> *nods* and seconds Skyhawk1
<Chiaroscuro{a}> ^trufriend... on a micro level... well, those of us that are able (for various reasons) to spread the word, unashamed.
<_cyn_> for the media, you can use it as a tool to educate those who are ignorant about the D/s lifestlye or the BDSM part of the D/s lifestyle, until one steps up and takes that approach then the ignorance will stay out there and no one will know what the realm of D/s can be and really is
<Sweetone{LT}> and why is that important cyn?
<Skyhawk1> when you try to justify something ...you can draw unwanted attention and may appear defensive or insecure
<Sweetone{LT}> if we are happy with our chosen lifestyles, why the need to validate from others who do not understand?
<_cyn_> its important for those of us who take part in the D/s lifestlye, for others to understand where we come from, why and how we feel the way we do, for all to know that life is broadened by those of us in this world, our flavors are all different, and it helps the prejudicial stand point on D/s not being 'normal'
<^trufriend> when my family discovered i was Wiccan, the first response was "ooh, don't cast any spells on me", then "is that normal?"...when my family discovered i preferred a lifestyle with bdsm in it the immediate response was "that's not normal! you need to deal with your demons!"
<^trufriend> how do we deal with things like that?
<_cyn_> you educate them
<Sweetone{LT}> and is it anyone's business how you live your life, if you are responsible to yourself family community etc?
<^trufriend> this topic of normal is a personal one for me, and i am seeking ideas and thoughts from others...maybe to find out if i am normal? *S*
<`abi> I think within your family tru...you make the best decisions you can...you protect yourself and you protect your family and if you can create a tiny ripple of understanding in the pool of understanding, then you do it however you can
<Skyhawk1> by being strong within yourself...and by showing your happiness
<_cyn_> what do you mean Sweetone?
<_cyn_> elaborate please,
<Sweetone{LT}> elaborate on being responsible?
<^trufriend> it was made their business Sweetone{LT}, when it was brought out in a Courtroom in front of family and strangers
<dalian> i simply accept them as being the mindset of someone who is also entitled to an opinion whether an educated one or not...it has no bearing on what i am as a person
<_cyn_> to me, if you have kids, and you abandone them, its my responsibility to step in and report yes, if i see a girl being raped in a ally, i should step in yes
<Chiaroscuro{a}> ^trufriend.. you don't... I think you dealt with it the only way you could.. you inform.. you can't control their reactions... but the more people who can be who they are, without hiding it the better... when things are hidden they seem 'wrong' (even if they
<_cyn_> but HOW you choose to live your life, is NOT my business
<Skyhawk1> courtroom...that is why it is best to keep to one's personal self..matters that are still not accepted in society
<Skyhawk1> no one has any business in your bedroom...but who you choose to be there
<`abi> my response to my children's assertians that I am not "normal" (what parent ever is) is that this is "normal" for me ... and that I hope they will learn to have a broader personal acceptance than perhaps most people
<_cyn_> the ONLY reason why the public shudders at BDSM is because they only know what they are told
<_cyn_> for example
<_cyn_> look that the online Master guy, he killed all those woman he met online
<_cyn_> remember that?
<Sweetone{LT}> he wasn't a master cyn...
<`abi> no it isn't cyn...even people who know exactly what it is may find it odd ... it depends on their own personal frame of reference
<Sweetone{LT}> he was preying on people
<_cyn_> that is all that was talked about, was how he whipped them, and used nipple clips etc, and then killed them
<Skyhawk1> a true Master helps others
<_cyn_> there was nothing about how ppl can enjoy and do take responsiblilty w/ there lifestlye when interacting with BDSM
<_cyn_> i know that Sweetone
<_cyn_> im not saying he WAS or IS A Master
<_cyn_> i do know the difference
<`abi> because that isn't news cyn ... when a man kills his wife the news articles rarely find it necessary to mention that most people who are married don't do that
<_cyn_> it WAS news when all you heard was BDSM when they mentioned it
<^trufriend> that's back to the media issue cyn.....
<_cyn_> well that is what you were talking bout wasnt it?
<^trufriend> sensationalism.....otherwise it wouldn't be news
<Skyhawk1> as said earlier...the press sensattionalizes
<Skyhawk1> and those who are insecure become most upset..overeacte
<^trufriend> media's definition of 'normal' is only one of millions cyn...
<`abi> the reality is that "normal" isn't news ....
<Skyhawk1> medias definitions are conveniences which change with the seasons
<Skyhawk1> or political climate
<Chiaroscuro{a}> `abi or that the media distorts it, until it is abnormal, thus 'interesting'
<Sweetone{LT}> ok, so bdsm isn't normal...yet most women like to have their nipples squeezed, pinched etc...so now we are just defining the degree of s/m activity in ones life as being normal??
<^trufriend> so, to be 'normal' is not 'normal'? that says a lot right there!
<_cyn_> knowing that probably half the ppl reporting that story go home and use the 'whip' themselves LOL
* `abi smiles at tru...comforting ain't it ;)
<Skyhawk1> some form of bdsm is normal..it is what excites everyone to some degress
<^trufriend> normal is June Cleaver maybe.....haven't met one yet, although my mom tried to come damned close! lol
<Maitresse> good evening
<`abi> in my family Lucy would be closer to normal
<_cyn_> evening Maitresse
<^trufriend> a lot of my family are CLeaver wannabes abi...scary really
<^trufriend> i'm the one that feels most normal! LOL
<`abi> I don't have a problem with the fact that what I do isn't "normal", so long as the people I care about don't attach a value judgement to it....yes, what I do is "different", but it is also just fine
<Skyhawk1> who would want to be "normal"?...what a sad state...
<Skyhawk1> one must find one's self...and then live it...what glory
<Sweetone{LT}> why does anyone want to do what the jones do next door, and the same as what their neighbours do...that lacks individuality
<Skyhawk1> exactly Sweetone...and parents should ultimately want their children to be happy and to be themselves
<Sweetone{LT}> agreed Skyhawk1
<Skyhawk1> no parent should truly want a clone or a stereotype
<`abi> parents rarely do Skyhawk1 ... it's the kids who usually want the parent to be normal
<^trufriend> so maybe what we're hoping for...or looking for...is to be accepted for whatever we choose to do and whoever we choose to associate with whether or not it is considered 'normal'?
<dalian> yes i certainly think so tru
<Skyhawk1> yes...trufriend...we do want to be accepted...but if we are not then we must have faith and strength in our selves
<`abi> works for me tru ....nothing quite like unconditional acceptance as an ideal
<^trufriend> how do we build that strength and faith then?
<Skyhawk1> we choose partners who accept us for who we are...with parents we have no choice...lol
<^trufriend> acceptance is considered a 'normal' feeling or desire in most of us though...
<dalian> i think we build the strength by simply being as we are
<Skyhawk1> parents may not accept us...but they should have unconditional love for us
<^trufriend> so maybe we *are* normal? lol
<^trufriend> in other words, be tolerant of our choices?
<Sweetone{LT}> you build that strength from within...it's called courage of your convictions and peace with your values.
<`abi> pebble in the pond theory tru....you start with believing in yourself and you surround yourself with people who believe in you and every once in a while it's quite normal to make a wave ;)
<Skyhawk1> trufriend...parents should respect our choices...our right to be ourselves
<^trufriend> are You a parent Skyhawk1?
<Skyhawk1> I often have more respect for someone who is different from me.
<Skyhawk1> yes..I am a parent...and want my children to be happy and to live their own life...to leave the nest so to speak..:)
<Skyhawk1> by the way...they are soaring...:)
<`abi> lol....good luck Skyhawk1 ... only way that happens is if you move the nest and don't tell them!
<Skyhawk1> lol....well ....there are times when their Dad would like to see how they fly...chuckling
<^trufriend> i was asked once by someone who knows of my life choices "what would you do if your son came home and announced he was gay?" my immediate answer was "if my son is truly happy with that decision, then i would be happy for him"...my friend's response was disbelief
<Sweetone{LT}> i would think that's your friend's problem tru, not yours :)
<Skyhawk1> I have grabbled with that thought trufriend...and I did not like it when My son wore an earring...but I accepted it..he is now almost finished an MBA
<Skyhawk1> if My son was gay...I would be upset...but I would live with His choice if He was happy and if it was truly him
<`abi> that's an example of perspective tru....in my family gay is normal...my daughters have a gay uncle and a gay brother, so when a friend announces themselves as gay it's pretty much a nonissue...but they have other friends who are blown away by such news
<^trufriend> i didn't feel it was my problem at all, just showing how some think normal should be
<Sweetone{LT}> i think i would be happy in knowing that he has thought it through and knows who he is and accepts himself for it.
<Skyhawk1> that is certainly a classic normal response trufriend...on your friends part...I agree with you
<Skyhawk1> I agree Sweetone...and the courage to tell Me about it...
<^trufriend> well, looking at the time....i think we can wind this down now, if anyone would like to continue please feel free. i would like to thank everybody for their input tonight and for tolerating this confused sub...*S*
<`abi> confusion is normal tru ;)
<Sweetone{LT}> thanks tru :))
<Chiaroscuro{a}> ^trufriend thanks for moderating...
<Skyhawk1> thanks trufriend....not confusion...but venting...sharing...
<^trufriend> definitely abi! lol
<Skyhawk1> only in such ways do we learn about ourselves..
<Skyhawk1> doubt is the beginning of wisdom
<Skyhawk1> right on abi!!!...confusion..doubt is most normal!!
<Skyhawk1> society does not want strong individualists...but followers..conformists...makes for stability
<kirby{NM}> sorry E/everyone Master came home and took away my puter... :(
<kirby{NM}> He had to check His d/l's and they were all screwed up :)
<Sweetone{LT}> nite all
<kirby{NM}> so have we decided if we are normal or not??
<kirby{NM}> nite Sweetone{LT}
<`abi> we've decided we're both kirby
<`abi> it is normal to be abnormal and abnormal to be normal
<kirby{NM}> hehe...ok that's good
<kirby{NM}> i suppose in a circular sense that makes perfect sense
<Skyhawk1> good abi....:)
<`abi> god I hope not