July 28, 2002 EhBC Online Discussion

#bdsm-kw url is http://home.golden.net/~ehbc
<pebbly`> hi lil`tigress, and naughtyvickie
<lil`tigress> hello pebbly`
<lil`tigress> hello naughtyvickie
* lil`tigress smiles.. trying to work her dang popup
<pebbly`> seems quiet tonight, is there a discussion here later?
<lil`tigress> yes there is..
<pebbly`> do you know what its about?
<lil`tigress>1the topic for tonight is What is Submission?
<lil`tigress> hello steven_sub
<pebbly`> aah...that sounds good.
<steven_sub> hello
<pebbly`> I will be back later :)
<naughtyvickie> hello lil`tigress
<dalian> hello everyone
<lil`tigress> how are you doing naughtyvickie
<lil`tigress> hello dalian
<steven_sub> hi - any of you know of a bed and breakfast in Kingston - bdsm
* lil`tigress looks at the clock..
<naughtyvickie> not bad thanx and yourself lil`tigress
<lil`tigress> is one there but not sure where or what about it.. steven_sub
<lil`tigress> me doing pretty good vickie..
<naughtyvickie> thats good
<naughtyvickie> hi firestar{LO}
<naughtyvickie> hi jen{SE}
<jen{SE}> Hello A/all
<lil`tigress> hello jen{SE}
<jen{SE}> quiet night.. is discussion on tonight?
<firestar{LO}> hello all
<lil`tigress> yes it is jen
<jen{SE}> hello naughtyvickie & lil`tigress
<lil`tigress> hello firestar{LO}
<firestar{LO}> just checked email... no topic but lore is supposed to mod apparently
<jen{SE}> Thank you lil`tigress
* lil`tigress smiles.. yes and i am lore
<lil`tigress> better or also known as lil`tigress. .. formerly loreilei
<jen{SE}> *smiles* at the topic, just had a long discussion on what is a Master with a Friend...
<firestar{LO}> nods to lil`tigress
<lil`tigress> hmm
<loreilei> do you think this will solve any questions.. *smiles*
<jen{SE}> *lol*, it does help
<loreilei> so what is your thought on it jen{SE}... is it your submission . .or just general that .. was involved
<naughtyvickie> hi abi
<naughtyvickie> hi fiestyone-afk
<loreilei> hello abi
<loreilei> hello SkyDom
<naughtyvickie> hi SkyDom
<naughtyvickie> hi Hamilton_Aaron
<SkyDom> Hi, all!
<Hamilton_Aaron> hi everybody
<firestar{LO}> bye all
<fiestyone> hi naughtyvickie.....
<fiestyone> it appears that i missed meeting you at DAL
<jen{SE}> actually it was a disussion on what makes a Master a Master vs a Dominant
<naughtyvickie> hi stphen
<stphen> hello
<naughtyvickie> were you there fiestyone?
<jen{SE}> think it is probably easier to define what is a submissive than what is a Master *lol*
<fiestyone> i was
<naughtyvickie> too bad we missed each other then fiestyone
<loreilei> what are your views.. on submission jen ... from your own self
<jen{SE}> that is hard to define, i have spent much time trying to sort that out in my head and heart
<loreilei> ok.. anyone.. what does submission mean to them... where does it come from
<jen{SE}> i believe to me it is just my need to please and serve my Dominant. so what makes me a submissive is what He needs me to be
<loreilei> do you feel it inside you .. before he needs what you give.. jen
<stephen_sub> submission to me is a total handing over of control, and unquestioning obedience to serve
<jen{SE}> i think submission is a character trait, and a submissive will be a submissive regardless of wether a Dominant is present, a D/s relationship gives structure to the need
<loreilei> can submission be hidden.. or is it always there in some way or form
<jen{SE}> i think it is always there in some way or form
<fiestyone> i believe it can be hidden...i can name a lot of people who would faint at the mere suggestion that i was submissive...
<fiestyone> i function as a very tough lady in the vanilla world
<loreilei> so .. is or do you feel your submission in even the tiniest of ways fiestyone .. or do you keep it ..blocked while you work
<jen{SE}> i do as well, but i always treat people with respect, i also follow the rules my Dominant has set for me, it does not go away because i am not at home in private
<fiestyone> i keep it blocked for the most part of my life.......
<fiestyone> and i have no Master......to serve......so my situation is very different
<fiestyone> when i have been out in public...with a Dominant...i act as he wishes.....with the degree of submission that is pleasing to him
<loreilei> so .. you bring out.. or .. exhibit what he wishes fiestyone??
<fiestyone> it lives within me....but i live in a very vanilla world.......
<fiestyone> and when i am with a Dominant....i try always to please.....
<yummy> so you enjoy the chance to express it?
<fiestyone> in whatever manner he requiers.....
<fiestyone> yes i do.....it keeps me going to be honest
<loreilei> so you feel your submission.. always . whether you are working.. or with someone who brings it out..
<fiestyone> it is all i have at this point......
<fiestyone> yes.....i feel it....i just do not display it ......
<loreilei> what is the submission that the dominant expects.. anyone care to talk about this at all
<yummy> does it make it better or worse when after you get the chance to express it fiestyone?
<jen{SE}> i think it varies based on the needs or the Dominant
<jen{SE}> what one needs another may not
<fiestyone> short term....is is wonderful......but.....when i have to put it away.....and return to my life in vanilla land....it feels very sad to me
<yummy> i think that is why communication is so important
<jen{SE}> i think there is some common ground, respect and obediance
<MrScotdom> I do not know if it is an expectation... more of a choreographed familiarity and chemistry between Dominant ans submissive.
<fiestyone> and it is getting harder and harder to do that as well
<yummy> you can't assume what one wants is what another wants
<jen{SE}> exactly
<yummy> what do you mean by choreographed MrScotdom?
<loreilei> yes i am not surprised fiestyone...
<MrScotdom> Relationships are as different as there are cookies in a jar.
<fiestyone> i am a very unhappy person just now.....
<loreilei> would not one expect submission to grow and florish as a Dominant and submissive learn about each other..
<fiestyone> with a lot of tough decisions ahead of her
<MrScotdom> One partner learns from the other... it shuld be a win win situation.. each learning the others character and needs... choreography...
<fiestyone> one would hope so....
<jen{SE}> even within an ongoing relationship the needs will change over time... as a submissive, i just follow His lead and add my two cents when i need to *lol*
<yummy> what about when your needs change jen{SE}?
<loreilei> like a dance.. the submission growing as the Dominant also exerts their own traits MrScotdom??
<MrScotdom> Time can be an aged old enemy or friend in a relationship
<jen{SE}> SE and i have been together almost two years, my needs have remained constant, serve and know He is happy, it sounds corny and most who know me, know i have a razor tongue sometimes, but that is an honest answer
<MrScotdom> Different flavours... B, D, S or M... and every permutation inbetween
<loreilei> but MrScotdom .. what is it that you expect . .from a submissive.. in the way of her giving to your her submission
<beloved^one{TLO}> to me, my needs change over time with the guidance of my Dominant. . . i change to need what he desires i become
<yummy> that is what brings you pleasure right beloved^one{TLO}?
<MrScotdom> I reiterate once again... it is not unduly an expectation...
<beloved^one{TLO}> what brings me pleasure is pleasing him. . . so if he desires i become or learn to do something, he guides me in that direction, and i follow
<MrScotdom> If each party does something to please the other... it is a much more rewarding and learned experience...
<jen{SE}> question? how many who identify as a submissive require the rituals, the protocals, the outward signs of D/s to feel complete?
<loreilei> good question jen
<MrScotdom> Guiding with a firm touch.... not an expectation of behaviour
<fiestyone> i think they are more important to me than to someone who lives 24/7.......as i am always having to switch gears as it were
<fiestyone> so.when i put on the outer trappings of submission...it does help me to make that transition
<fiestyone> but....that is just my situation...my reality
<loreilei> for myself jen.. the protocals help but my submission is inside of me.. i feel it.. i hold it dear to give to the one. to submit to the one who is deserving of it
<MrScotdom> Acknowledging the very fact that we are "members" of this thing called BDSM is in itself an admission of some sort of protocol.
<jen{SE}> *smiles* @ fiestyone, that is true for everyone, what we need and get out of this is very much a personal experience
<yummy> how do you tell when a sub submits to you MrScotdom?
<fiestyone> i would love nothing more...than to wear a collar.....24/7....but that is not in the cards for me......
<MrScotdom> We all realise why we are here... and what we wish to share and learn... most of us know the terminology... so together as a group we all exude a degree of protocol by just being here.
<jen{SE}> i find some rituals are very important other not so much, respect, obedience, not negotiable
<yummy> yes but what do you see as submission MrScotdom?
<jen{SE}> How about play, do you require it or would you still get your needs met without it...
<jen{SE}> where do the floggers, canes etc. come into submission vs.. sensation, masochism, etc.
<MrScotdom> Submission for Me is when she does not eat my shortbread nor drink my Scotch... that's what I call a really good girl <sticks out tongue>
<`abi> they usually enter somewhere around my butt
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<jen{SE}> though, i have not yet seen a flogger actually enter a butt, though i am sure it can and has been done
<yummy> oh so they can take your wallet?
* Symmetre{t} has seen several floggers with dildo handles
<MrScotdom> yes... there are varying pictures available to prove such a medical theory is possible.... pony girl anyone
<fiestyone> from a scotsman.....i highly doubt that...lol
<jen{SE}> ahhhh, the multi purpose toy :-))))
<yummy> shhhh jen{SE}, don't challange Doms, else you might be experiencing it as your newest form of submission
<jen{SE}> *grins*, i also say a sure way to experience something is to mention to SE that i don't like it *lol*
<MrScotdom> Reverse psycology
<loreilei> ok.. to the Dominants.. do you feel any form of submission as well when you accept this lifestyle?? or is it something that you just want
<MrScotdom> I do not feel any form of submission being a Dominant no...
<loreilei> but .. did you accept/submit to your own views that this lifestyle was what you wanted.. that you needed.. or did you just know it was
<loreilei> submission can also be about accepting that this is what we all crave.. not just personal submissive tendencies. .right or wrong
<MrScotdom> In accepting this lifestyle I am at least grateful that I have a pool of resources and opportunity to meet others whom understand that we are not of the vanilla nature!
<jen{SE}> acceptance and submission to me are two different things
<jen{SE}> we all at one time or another accepted who we are or at least i hope we did...
<yummy> don't think we'd be here if we didn't
<MrScotdom> I personally have always been this way... I question ... I read... I watch.. and I have always been the first to put my best foot forward and do things.
<`abi> but it's a very good question loreilei ...in a sense Dominants do 'submit' themselves to the responsibilities that they take on
<`abi> the 'submit' to their own expectations of what ownership means
<`abi> last I heard, it wasn't exactly a walk in the park
<yummy> and those responsibilities can be hefty based on the type of relationship they are in
<MrScotdom> The responsibilities are an inherent part of Me.... I fell no need, cause or experience of submitting to them... they were here long before I understood what they were.
<yummy> do Doms ever find them onerous?
<`abi> exactly yummy...with great power, comes great responsibility ... and I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that one 'submits' to those responsibilities
<yummy> one is defininely bound by those responsibilities
<loreilei> for those just joining ..
<`abi> after all ... a Dominant first controls him/herself
<yummy> or the relationship can't really work
<fiestyone> to me just the thought of being a Dom makes me tired.....
<MrScotdom> I have always been dominant in nature even at kindergarten... BDSM has offered me an avenue to let that part of me grow... I have never neede to submit to it
<Symmetre{t}> abi ... you don't submit to responsibilities. You take charge of the responsibility, not the other way around
<`abi> possibly Symmetre{t} .... but perhaps it's just a different way of thinking of it
<Symmetre{t}> abi ... not really. To me, right por wrong, its a which comes first, the horse or cart thing
<MrScotdom> Exactly abi... I have seen many Doms who could not even control their basic carnal instincts... now let them loose on some unsuspecting subbie....
<MrScotdom> Like a new driver being handed the keys to a Ferrari race car
<victoria_angel> dangerous thought MrScotdom
<jen{SE}> hmm, unsuspecting subbie, brings me back to the topic, what is Submission, it is not a loss of brain cells...
<MrScotdom> I try to prove my worth as a Dominant... I don't ask a submissive to prove she is worthy of Me... I take the responsibility of proving my safety to her.
<fiestyone> ah but jen...there are those that think any woman who submits to a man...has no working brain cells
<jen{SE}> Dominants may have a bag full of responsibilties, but i am first and foremost responsible for my safety, and should not be entereing anything without understanding it
* jen{SE} sorry have to leave
<MrScotdom> I enjoy the responsibilities... I like a challenge... just as submissives enjoy being submissive!
<fiestyone> isn't that neat.how that works out??
<loreilei> are they just submissives. .or is submission inside of them MrScotdom
<MrScotdom> OH OH... must have been something good on TV
<MrScotdom> We all possess the fire withing
<MrScotdom> It burns and burns until one day it breaks through the vanilla ice.
<`abi> and here I thought it was just heartburn
<MrScotdom> Some sooner than later
<yummy> so in you is submale waiting to emmerge MrScotdom
<fiestyone> and for some.never
<MrScotdom> You cannot purchase submission in a store... you cannot learn it in College... you cannot copy it from your sister... it is inside of you from birth...
<MrScotdom> abi... hahahahahah
<MrScotdom> Too much Haggis
<MrScotdom> Heartburn
<loreilei> is submission of one form or another something we all experience or crave
<fiestyone> i crave it..and if i get lucky...i get to experience it.....
<MrScotdom> I am not certain many Dom/mmes experience submission....
<fiestyone> i actually get very cranky.....if i do not have an outlet for it....in a decent amount of time...
<naughtyvickie> unless they were submissive before becoming Dominate
<MrScotdom> That phrasology is called switching!
<naughtyvickie> i get the same way fiestyone
<MrScotdom> OH OH... <looks at clock>
<MrScotdom> What is decent amount of time?
<fiestyone> about ten mins ago.....lol
<fiestyone> look out...im gettin cranky
<MrScotdom> hahahahah... not a clock... more like a stick of dynamite with the cord burning?
<fiestyone> yes...that would be more accurate....
<MrScotdom> Lookit that big red candle mommy!
<MrScotdom> ssssssssssBOOM
<loreilei> how would one allow their submission to show for the betterment of a relationship?
<MrScotdom> Everyone is tonguetied this evening
<`abi> you mean something short of carrying a cross through the streets of Toronto loreilei?
<MrScotdom> ...that would only piss off the taxi drivers
<fiestyone> didn't they already do that this week
<loreilei> basically abi yes..
<yummy> i think they did that here a day or so ago didn't they?
<yummy> and closed the roads for it too
<loreilei> between two people..
<`abi> I think it only has to show between the two people who need to see it .... but how that happens varies rather considerably depending on the kinds of rituals of submission that you have in your relationship
<MrScotdom> Cross carrying man hit by streetcar... oh yes... I can see the headlines now
<loreilei> yes it varies for each and everyone and couple..
<`abi> it has to be things which are meaningful to the two or three or ten people involved in the relationship
<MrScotdom> 10 people in the relationship.... oweee...
<`abi> well, you know how it is MrScotdom ...you bring two friends, they bring two friends ....
<loreilei> but are there any ways that that submission is shown that anyone would care to express... as all would have things that are more submissive than at other times
<MrScotdom> hhaha
<fiestyone> im afraid i am not qualified to comment.....
<loreilei> anyone have anything else to say on what is Submission... before I wrap up the topic in a minute or two
<MrScotdom> Just go to a munch or fet night and take a look around... there are lots of real live examples of submission... female to male.. male to female... vice versa.... it is a visual expression encompassing devotion and honest love for the other person...
<fiestyone> sounds good to me....
<MrScotdom> Asked to explain it... is not an easy task... everyone is different and each has their own individual ways of delivering it
<MrScotdom> ... some better than others... at expressing submission...
<`abi> submission is an intentional relinquishing of power and control ... what that actually looks like, will and should vary considerably with each individual
<loreilei> 4I thank you one and all for participating in tonights discussion
<MrScotdom> Excellent abi.... I will take two of those please to go.