July 25, 2004 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Training Techniques". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<MrPrefect> wow just like clock work
<krista-F> must be the good training!!
<Travis`> I am doing well
* Travis` smiles
<Travis`> Its good that I rememberd to make it to this one
* Travis` needs to learn Training Techniques -> -krista-F- lol - looks like you may have to moderate
<krista-F> do you beleive formal training to be of beneifit Travis Sir?
<Omy> So what goes into developing a good training technique?
<snowkatze{AW}> consistancy
<Symmetre> clarity
<MrPrefect> so what are we training people to do?
<Omy> How about purpose?
<Mackenzie> Many things go into a good training technique. The secret, I believe, is to understand the purpose of the training
<Travis`> I believe so krista. I myself have not had any or have done any. I am still new at this.
<Travis`> Ah, hello Bernie. I was hoping you would make it tonight
<Symmetre> it would follow that a dom trains his sub to do the things he wants in the way he wants. Amazingly enough, submissives are not mind readers ... if you don't show them specifically what you want, you can't expect to get it
<Symmetre> duh
<Symmetre> lol
* MrPrefect is so new at this he doesn't even know what training is..
<MrPrefect> ahh
<MrPrefect> now thats a great start
<Travis`> Training is, as I understand it, in this contex, teaching someone something :)
<Symmetre> so me thinks step one is deciding just what it is you want this person to do
<Mackenzie> But where do doms learn how to train a sub?
<snowkatze{AW}> From observation, from other Doms
<Travis`> From other Doms is the best way
<ethereal> it makes sense that someone will be more likely to learn to do it well if they understand the purpose...none of us like to do something that seems pointless to us...and there's no purpose to be served by keeping the sub in the dark
<Mackenzie> trust and obedience are two of the pillars of good training... along with honesty of course
* Travis` nods in agreement
<snowkatze{AW}> For me, it was through patience, my Dom'e understanding of me, and some 'correction' :)
<krista-F> please know that i trusted no one.until i met Mackenzie Sir....
<LadyNichola> Hmm
<krista-F> i was a very closed individual
<yummy> not sure you can teach obedience
<LadyNichola> I think the object of the game is not to train something new
<MrPrefect> are there some examples that people have that we can hear?
<yummy> trust comes with familiarity
<LadyNichola> but rather to polish that which is already there
<ethereal> sure you can yummy....that's what behavioural psych is for ;)
<Travis`> I myself have not have not found a partner, so I do not really have much input at this time.
<QTIP> the 3 facets of training i've refinend to work for me, over time are: 1) obedience; 2) to become more pleasing {better}; 3) the acceptance of one's own kinky self
<Mackenzie> I can agree with polish.. but also, at times one must find that which is concealed under layers of.. protection
<LadyNichola> Quite so Mackenzie
<QTIP> refined, rather
<LadyNichola> At its best, training can make someone a better person
* Travis` nods
<ethereal> and at it's worst?
<Travis`> For both sides I would expect
<LadyNichola> it can have no affect at all
<Mackenzie> And sadly, at its worse, it can detroy them
<snowkatze{AW}> Make you walk away from the lifestyle
<LadyNichola> hmm
<Symmetre> Successful training is entirely trust-based. I've always felt that starting with fairly basic things allows the development of trust, that the sub learns the Dom does have his or her best interests at heart. That makes it easier down the road when the objective may not be so clearly understood
<MrPrefect> would love to hear some examples
<Travis`> I agree Symmetre
<ethereal> in full agreement Mackenzie...which is why tops need to be purproseful in their training...training for something "just because I can" fall under the real of 'stupid Top tricks' in my book
<ethereal> that should be realm, not real
<yummy> i would think that would destroy trust ethereal
<ethereal> must...type...slower
<ethereal> i agree, but i know Tops who have said "because I can" when asked "why?"
<Mackenzie> I agree with you Symmetre... though it is possible to do superficial training to an accomplished sub... services and the such
<QTIP> an example of what exactly, MrPrefect?
<Symmetre> case in point ... I always have my girl walk on my right side, one half step behind me. Sounds silly, but it does serve a purpose. I'm deaf in my left ear, so I can't hear her if she's over there. And one half step behind keeps me from crashing into her if I want to turn right. Particularly with a new sub, its little things like that that establish trust and that you have some idea of what you're doing ... lol
<MrPrefect> a situation of what you where trained and how it took place
<MrPrefect> or what you trained someoen to do and how you did it
<krista-F> i have always done such with Mackenzie Sir ...Symmetre
<Symmetre> :)
<krista-F> and never knew the reason..it did not matter why
<krista-F> it was his wish...that was all i needed to know.since it is my pleasure to be found pleasing to him
<Symmetre> other times, krista-F, I'll have her do thngs simply on a whim ... lol ... and that comes easily when trust is there
<Symmetre> but without trust ... forget it
<krista-F> agreed....
<krista-F> i am not one to trust easily
<Mackenzie> It is difficult to give examples of training. The ones I have done were all long and complex affairs... but all have certain things in common
<Mackenzie> Basic serves, basic speech, basic protocols... but I am sure these vary with each dom
<Symmetre> sure do, Mackenzie ... hence the need to establish clearly what it is that works for each of us right up front
* Travis` nods as he listens closely
<krista-F> i asked permission at the beginning of the evening Symmetre..to speak first person.as i never do such when in Mackenzie's presence...
<Mackenzie> For myself... the joy of training is in the discovery of the depths of the sub... and the sense of achievement in developing those qualities to their perfection
<MrPrefect> well I'm just very new to this, so I wouldn't even know where to start to know what to train someone to do. And I'm also a very praticle person, so while all the abstract information is good, but I lear best by example
<krista-F> yet i always speak first person with all of you...
<spankablecyn> Symmetre I would consider your sub performing a courtesy, because of your hearing problem. There are many things I do for my Dom as a courtesy because it pleases him
<MrPrefect> what are some typical thinks Doms train their Subs to do
<MrPrefect> ?
<QTIP> I met a woman who said she was submissive and wanted me to train her. She cursed the world for her condition. My first "training" was for her to count the number of times she cursed every day and to report it to me. That lasted 2 days ;-)
<Mackenzie> MrP, who do you wish to train, and for what purpose?
<MrPrefect> right no, only myself in this knoledge
<MrPrefect> right now even
<Symmetre> it is a courtesy, spankablecyn, but beyond that, it's what I want. It makes me happy, and that's the bottom line for me
<krista-F> as it should be Symmetre Sir
<MrPrefect> but eventually my g/f I should imagine wouldn't mind to embark on such and adventure
<ethereal> i'm just guessing, but i would think a dom would need to know what they want from a sub before they can train one...training should be individualized to some extent, no?
<Mackenzie> Well then, you must start with an understanding of why you would wish a sub trained, for what purpose, and from that work out a program that would get them there
<Symmetre> absolutely, ethereal
<Travis`> Do rewards come into play often while training?
<Symmetre> once one has determined what it is they want from the sub, then you get into the nitty gritty of exactly how to get there. It's easy if it's something simple or something pleasant .... it's a greater challenge when it's something the sub simply doesn't enjoy
<Mackenzie> If it is only for your physical pleasure... well then the training is quite straightforward
<Mackenzie> Yes, of course rewards come into play.. though the defintion of "reward" can take on many meanings, neh? <smiles>
<krista-F> lol
<spankablecyn> I think there a different degrees and different levels of what people would consider training still I still think it is out of courtesy that perform what my Dom likes rather than "training" per say
* Travis` chuckles softly
<Symmetre> incentives ... such as special privledges ... go a long way
<krista-F> what's this about rewards???
<krista-F> hmmmmmmm not part of my training
<Mackenzie> shhh... krista... <smiles>
<Symmetre> krista-F ...can you sit down?
<krista-F> yes S ir....
<Symmetre> that's a reward
<Symmetre> lol
<ethereal> LOL..i was just going to ask if furniture was a priviledge or not ;)
<Symmetre> <--- pragmatic
<Mackenzie> of course... there is a fairly broad definition of punishment as well
<ethereal> guess that depends on the dom
<krista-F> Symmetre you know im a pain slut...like that is going to intimidate me??
<Mackenzie> I suppose that depends on the furniture
<krista-F> not hardly Sir
<Symmetre> true enough, krista-F ... silly me
<krista-F> lol
<krista-F> behave girl...or i will cane you...whoopeee
<krista-F> ok...im quiet
<Mackenzie> MrP... to get back to practical tips, you can try 3rd person speech, heeling, various crawls, drink service, etc. They all serve a purpose
<Symmetre> I found a new supplier of graphite for canes .... yayyyy!
<spankablecyn> I am a painslut as well, ignoring me would hurt me
<krista-F> exactly cyn...or just the knowledge that i have displeased
<Skyhawk{d}> is training based upon punishments and rewards?
<Travis`> I wonder what I will get
<Mackenzie> Exactly my point spankable
<Travis`> Some training is Skyhawk
<ethereal> i'm not a pain slut (yet ;) but physical punishment would be considerably easier to bear than being ignored without a doubt
* spankablecyn nods at krista-F
<Mackenzie> Hmm... what do you mean by "based upon"
<Travis`> though the meaning of punishment differs alot
<Travis`> As does rewards for that matter
<Mackenzie> Agreed
<Skyhawk{d}> I would question whether punishment need ever be used.......
<Mackenzie> An interesting question... can you explain further?
<Travis`> When you scold a pet for doing something wrong, that is still punishment
<Acquiescer> IF I may sometimes its needed whether physically or mentally
<MrPrefect> So would some of the things you wish to train your sub to do be things they don't enjoy, or perhaps would just rather not do?
<Skyhawk{d}> is scolding a positive reinforcement?
<Symmetre> it's very difficult to talk in broad terms about specific training techniques, since we're talking about individual human beings here. What works splendidly with one sub may not work at all with someone else. But generally speaking, rewards for good behaviour ... whatever that reward may be ... tend to work very well, especially when combined with appropriate correction when she messes up
<Mackenzie> Of course MrP
<MrPrefect> To what extent would that be carried then?
<Skyhawk{d}> I agree that any techniques are very personal and subjective
<Mackenzie> To whatever extent the dom feels is required. He is in charge of the training
<snowkatze{AW}> As long as training the sub to do these unwanted things is pleasing to you MrP
<ethereal> imo, punishment is necessary at some point...without it how does one learn limits?
<MrPrefect> kewl
<Symmetre> I think it's important to distinguish between punishment and correction
<ethereal> what form that punishment takes is another issue altogether
<_dove{S}> i'm not sure i agree with punishment being part of training, but i admittedly missed a good deal of the discussion
<Symmetre> correction is a given
<Skyhawk{d}> punishment may be counterproductive in some situations and with some individuals.....
<ethereal> i guess in this case i'm using the words synonymously, perhaps I shouldn't
<Mackenzie> However, training without a keen sense of responsibility is at its best teasing and at its worst outright cruelity
* Travis` blinks a bit as he realizes something, and shakes his head some
<Mackenzie> I can not think of how I could train a sub without, at times, using punishment
<Symmetre> punishment ... to me ... indicates something's gone wrong in the training process. Either the dom wasn't clear in expressing his wishes, or the sub's being a damn brat! lol
<Skyhawk{d}> I like to hear about responsibility......
<spankablecyn> That is a good point Symmetre, I take correction well, physical punnishment is confusing to a masochist
<Skyhawk{d}> I agree Symmetre...........punishment may indeed be a sign of failure to communicate...failure to understand....
<Symmetre> or ... it could just be the brat misbehaving! lol
<snowkatze{AW}> Correction is offered or used as a improvement; an emendation.
<Mackenzie> I wrote an essay on the use of punishment in training.. responsibility plays a key role.. it must.. the dom must be aware that they are changing the behaviour of another human being.. to do so without the morale guidance of responsbility is, imo, criminal
<RetroDeviant> I've always hated calling it punishment. We punish criminals. I've always leaned more towards discipline. It's something you do with someone you care to teach.
* Symmetre has had that more than once
<ethereal> but punishment needn't be physical...in fact, anything that deters something from happening again is considered punishment...you don't have to lay a hand on them
<spankablecyn> Training a can elaborate and dramatic or as simple as "Don't Do That"
<Skyhawk{d}> some brats may misbehave on purpose....one must be astute
<Symmetre> yep, Skyhawk{d}
<Skyhawk{d}> "punishment" should not become a "reward"........
<_dove{S}> Mackenzie, could i ask you to clarify please? Or give an example of using punishment in training? Perhaps i'm mis-understanding
<Mackenzie> I consider discipline to be something I teach a girl (a protocol of sorts), punishment is the consequence of failure of the discipline
<ethereal> if the misbehaviour is an attempt to top from the bottom ten the Dom needs to be aware of that
<Mackenzie> Much depends on the reason for the failure, was it deliberate or accidental?
<Symmetre> yes, ethereal .... and ignore her for a while
<Symmetre> <--- meaniehead
<ethereal> which is punishment ;)
<RetroDeviant> I think that's an individual basis thing.
<Mackenzie> If deliberate, then a harsher punishment might be required
<Skyhawk{d}> have you not found Mackenzie.....that true punishment.......can be destructive at times?
<ethereal> define true punishment
<ethereal> please?
<snowkatze{AW}> Sometimes the failure of the sub can be a lack of communication
<ethereal> or failure on the Doms part to communicate effectively as well
<Mackenzie> I don't know what "true punishment" is, for me, punishment is only a consequence, and a part of the path to forgiveness.. how can one know one is forgiven, without a punishment at times?
<Skyhawk{d}> punishment is paying a penalty..........it should be appropriate at best.......and just.....
<MrPrefect> kinda rethorical question, but is 24/7 dom/sub play require to train? Hope everyone understands my question, and it's not too stupid as well..
<Mackenzie> Agreed Skyhawk
<Skyhawk{d}> understanding and communication is more important than "punishment"...imo
<ethereal> can you give an example of how that penalty can be harmful?
<Travis`> It is not required MrPrefect
<Mackenzie> No 24/7 is not required
<Symmetre> but punishment ... like anything else related to training .... needs to serve a purpose. Is it mitigation? Or revenge? Mitigation is legitimate. Revenge, getting the sub back for misbehaving, has no place in bdsm
<Mackenzie> It can push a sub right out of the liefstyle, ending a great potential
<Skyhawk{d}> if one feels improperly or inappropiately treated.....then bonds tend to be weakened..imo
<ethereal> i agree symmetre
<ethereal> then the dom must be responsible for choosing an appropriate punishment...no? in which case it is not counterproductive
<Mackenzie> Agreed Skyhawk... but that is also where the trust comes into play
<Symmetre> so lets define punishment as a negative experience designed to mitigate inappropriate behaviour
<Travis`> ummm, ok
<Mackenzie> I could mostly agree with that
<Travis`> if you say so Symmetre :)
<Skyhawk{d}> I believe punishment is largely an inappropriate vehicle for training
<Mackenzie> Why?
<ethereal> so how do you correct inappropriate behaviour?
<Travis`> I probally could as well, if I had any clue what mitigate meant :)
<Travis`> Hello amber
<ethereal> www.m-w.com...Sir
<amber19> hi
<Skyhawk{d}> imo.....punishment is a sign of failure.....in a process
<Symmetre> I agree, Skyhawk{d} .... something went wrong
<ethereal> so how do you mitigate that failure and get back on track?
<Skyhawk{d}> exactly Symmetre......:)
<Skyhawk{d}> communication ethereal.....is the first step
<Symmetre> depends what the failure way, ethereal ... and that requires the dom do some legitimate investigation, starting with himself or herself. Were you clear in your instructions?
<ethereal> and the next step?
<Mackenzie> Hmm... I guess I just don't see it that way... it is part of a process yes.. but why should that be a bad thing... as to failure.. failure is good... not learning from out mistakes is bad
<_dove{S}> Failure - or a sense of failure - is not always good
<Mackenzie> oops "our" not "out"
<Symmetre> nothing worse than "punishing" someone when you were the one who fucked up by not being clear
<kennel^bitch> sorry to interupt.. but MY GOD
<Skyhawk{d}> so learning from mistakes should be accompanied by punishments....I think not......
<Mackenzie> I disagree... failure can be a very good thing... it is a great teacher
<ethereal> it's interesting because in teaching children with a particular disorder i've used behavioural psych...and when the child isn't learning we look first at the teaching..and rarely is the issue something other than that
<kennel^bitch> are we talking about a good old fasjioned whipping or a sewing circle of social workers?
<ethereal> failure is an opportunity to improve
<Skyhawk{d}> I agree Mackenzie.......no need for punishments......in many cases..but rather learning
* Symmetre perks .... whipping? yayyy!
<kennel^bitch> jjeeezzz girls
* Symmetre hoped it would come to this!
<ethereal> heehee
<Skyhawk{d}> kennel^bitch.....if whipping is viewed as punishment....then one has the wrong mindset....imo......
<kennel^bitch> exactly Sir
<ethereal> here! here!
<kennel^bitch> come on
<kennel^bitch> we are talking about a lifestyle here
<Skyhawk{d}> a more appropriate punishment might be the absence of a whipping.......grins
<ethereal> i don't know about anyone else, but i'm trying to live a life, not a lifestyle
<kennel^bitch> subs and Doms should leave their baggage at home
<Mackenzie> But if a sub feels that there will be no punishment, no consequence for poor behaviour, then how can they be assured that the framework will be maintained? iow, punishment (like reward) is part of the basic exercise of D/s power
<snowkatze{AW}> Too true Mackenzie
<kennel^bitch> thats all part of the game you establish with your sub Sir'
<Mackenzie> Again I agree with you Skyhawk, not all of my punishments involve physical pain
<Skyhawk{d}> I believe strongly in consequences Mackenzie........not punishments
<ethereal> synonyms, IMO
<Mackenzie> Well, perhaps we are saying the same thing, using different semantics
<_dove{S}> Mackenzie> i am not against punishment when warranted. i am not understanding how punishment is good in a learning process - mistakes are inevitable
<Skyhawk{d}> some consequences are positive ethereal
* Travis` tilts his head
<Mackenzie> I did not say punishment was good, I said that failure was good
<ethereal> of course they are...when we do something right we get positive consequences
<kennel^bitch> has anyone ever looked at it another way
<Skyhawk{d}> failure is good?????..........hmmmmmmm........
<ethereal> that's why i prefer to think of it as reinforcers (both positive and negative) rather than punishments and rewards
<Travis`> If there is no failur, there is no growth
<_dove{S}> not to me Mackenzie, it is devastating
<Skyhawk{d}> so one should set up a sub to fail........??........I think NOT
<Symmetre> I do believe that if the sub screws up ... then it's usually due to something that can be identified and corrected. The fact of the matter is,we're all human and the only thing that's for sure is, WE WILL FUCK UP!! It's how that's dealt with that counts. So before reaching for the paddle, look things over and see what the problem was. As often as not (and it pains me to say this) ... it's the Dom's fault
<kennel^bitch> a slave/sub is bottom.. she/he wants it
<Travis`> That sort of thing Mackenzie?
<ethereal> i don't think anyone is suggeting you set up a sub for failure
<kennel^bitch> she/he expects punishment for punishments sake
<Skyhawk{d}> good for you Symmetre.......that is what a responsible Dom should do first....imo
<snowkatze{AW}> *coughs* Not all of us
<kennel^bitch> thats is the lure.. the sexual excitement
<Symmetre> thank you, Skyhawk{d}
<ethereal> not really...that's a small part, at least for me
* Symmetre gets off his soap box
<_dove{S}> i avoid punishment like the plague - it means failure to me, and that is bad news. But that's just me, i know others are different
<Travis`> I would not know myself. I do not have a slave/sub
<Skyhawk{d}> I rather enjoyed your stint Symmetre......smiles
<kennel^bitch> this is a sexual thing
<snowkatze{AW}> It isn't for everyone
<Symmetre> <--- performs Sundays and Thursdays, two shows a night
<Mackenzie> I think we are getting off track.. first.. punishment does not always have to do with pain... second.. when one fails one tends to learn from the experience.. (as in touching the hot stove when we are young).. the failure is good.. in that it provides potentially valuable learning experience
<shadoe> punishment is a sexual thing?
<kennel^bitch> i WANT my Master to punish me:)
<ethereal> at the risk of repeating myself i think we could avoid alot of the issues around semantics by referring to reinforcers rather than punishment and rewards...*shrug*
<kennel^bitch> yes of course
<Skyhawk{d}> chuckles at Symmetre.......
<kennel^bitch> why else would you want them to punish you?
<shadoe> ??
<shadoe> i'm supposed to WANT to be punished?
<snowkatze{AW}> I sure don't...
<ethereal> kennel, what you're refering to is not punishment, it's play
<shadoe> me either
<Travis`> Most rather have there dom with them while they are happy and pleased with them
<_dove{S}> Punishment isn't play to me
<Travis`> Not when they are angry
<shadoe> cause i gotta tell ya..sex is SO FAR from the resulting action
<kennel^bitch> punishment...play.. same thing
<Skyhawk{d}> kennel^bitch...I think you have punishment in the wrong context here.......
<kennel^bitch> no?
<QTIP> punishment=attention=reward. or so it seems
<ethereal> am i the only one who thinks a dom should never punish in anger?
<Symmetre> play is rewarding ... punishment isn't. Lets be clear about that and not confuse the two
<_dove{S}> no you are not the only one ethereal
<snowkatze{AW}> In a 24/7 relationship, punishment and play are very far apart.
<Symmetre> hardly, ethereal ..I agree with you completely
<Travis`> kennel^bitch, they are nowhere near the same thing
<shadoe> kennel.. i don't know who you are with.. but trust me.. punishment/play is NOT the same thing in this house
<Mackenzie> I agree completely ethereal.. never punish in anger
<Skyhawk{d}> a Dom should certainly NOT punish in a state of anger
<spankablecyn> It would not make sense to me for Dom to use the same toys for play for punishment
<ethereal> thanks Symmetre...i was beginning to feel like an alien
<kennel^bitch> aahhh.. i see the problem
<ethereal> me too...LOL
<kennel^bitch> you are punished out side of play
<kennel^bitch> why?
<kennel^bitch> Master/slave relationship should stay in the play area
<Travis`> its like being scolded or grounded kennel^bitch
<snowkatze{AW}> Usually because I was directly disobedient to my Dom
<shadoe> kennel.. are you in a D/s relationship? or an S & M?
<Skyhawk{d}> kennel^bitch......do you see a Master and a sub as two adults?
<Travis`> and Master/slave relationships are 24/7 usally.
<_dove{S}> If that works for you kennel^bitch, that's cool......... M/s (and D/s) relationships OFTEN go well beyond play
<kennel^bitch> D/s
<shadoe> and if you do something wrong......... totally unrelated to anything sexual.... what is the response?
<Travis`> Do you have a steady Dom kennel^bitch?
<kennel^bitch> i see a Master/slave relationship as 2 adults for the most part..
<kennel^bitch> do you want me to say i expect my Master to beat me?
<Skyhawk{d}> then two adults should not have to resort to punishment in reaching "understandings" together
<kennel^bitch> i DONT think so
<ethereal> you already said you want him to punish you
<shadoe> no.. i would like to hear what really happens
<Bernie> Just a reminder to everyone that there are about 5 minutes left in the formal part of the discussion
<Symmetre> correction is one thing ... something you do to point out an error and revise it. Play is quite different. It's for fun and fun alone! Punishment is also distinctly different. It addresses a serious problem ... and is neither pleasant nor something you want on any kind of consistent basis ... imo
<kennel^bitch> exactly Skyhawk Sir
<shadoe> i disagree Skyhawk
<kennel^bitch> you maybe are misunderstanding me
<shadoe> there are times.. perhaps rare.. when a punishment can 'bring home' the point.. much more astutely can a 'talk'
<snowkatze{AW}> You've hit the nail on the head Symmetre. :)
<kennel^bitch> D/s does not mean some Dom can beat the shit out of me when He feels like it
<Mackenzie> Doms and subs: Time bades me depart. My thanks for this most excellent discussion.. it was a fine pleasure... Peace and balance upon your homes
<Skyhawk{d}> I would hope that punishment is rare indeed shadoe........we are talking about two adults
<krista-F> but you are speaking of corporal punishment....shadoe?
<ethereal> only when you want him to? ;)
<snowkatze{AW}> Love and Light Mackenzie
<krista-F> good nite Sir.....many thanks for being here this evening
* Symmetre shows snowkatze{AW} his hammer. Nice n shiny, eh?
<Skyhawk{d}> I agree with you as well Symmetre.....
<shadoe> and if both adults respect each other as such.. then it in rare.. but we are not all perfect
* snowkatze{AW} nods
<krista-F> this girl will always believe you to be the most excellent of Trainers
<kennel^bitch> and no one has dealt with my statement
<shadoe> and in fact.. while a punishment might solve the problem.. the Dominant can mess up as well.. and that is addressed as well
<_dove{S}> which statement kennel^bitch?
<shadoe> no krista.. not corporal punishment.. deserved punishment
<shadoe> we all have to be accountable for our actions
<Travis`> kennel^bitch, that what most consider the diffrences between D/S and s/M
<kennel^bitch> do you expect my Master to beat me?
<Bernie> Well, it's ten o'clock, so I'm going to close the logfile. Please continue chatting, though -- it's a good discussion.
<shadoe> if we are in a relationship that believes in retribution for the actions..
<Bernie> Thank you to everyone who participated!