July 18 1999 EhBC Online Discussion

Session Start: Sun Jul 18 21:01:50 1999
<BernieRoehl> Our topic for tonight is "D/s fantasies vs D/s Realities".
* BLisS101 rolls up her sleeves
<BernieRoehl> So... anyone got any initial thoughts?
<MistressAstra> *listens to Bernie**g*
<shimmer``> Beauty books vs Story of O ;)
<katiias> neither are r/l
<GentleMaster2> intial thought....fantasy or reality = blissie!
* kbswitch avoids these chats....talk too you all later.
<BLisS101> blissie chooses making fantasies a reality
* BernieRoehl smiles
<shimmer``> hi abi
<BernieRoehl> And have you had good success with that, Bliss?  Do most fantasies make the transition to reality intact?
* katiias thinks...we all have 'fantasies'... we wont turn into reality....
<katiias> thats why they are 'fantasy'
<craken[LS> it is the fantasies that lead one to  the realities
<BLisS101> well i have been thinking lately that there are some fantasies that need to remain fantasy
<MistressAstra> thinks any fantasy can be made into a reality but does the fantsy live up to your expectatiopns?
<GentleMaster2> good for you blissie!!!!
<TheWolfe> any fantasy can, but some shouldn't be
* BLisS101 kicks M's shin
<meow`> hi abi
<BLisS101> i have some fantasies that ae too dark for words, let alone reality
<shimmer``> but shouldn't you be able to share any fantasy with your Dom/sub?
<katiias> not any fantasy..TW....
<katiias> u can share..but... they might not.. participate....
<kbswitch> nite MistressAstra...kb does a polite nod/bow.
<TheWolfe> why not kat
<MistressAstra> nite kb.
<BLisS101> shimmer i have come to believe that some fantasies are like secrets, if u dont wANT ANYONE TO KNOW, DONT TELL THEM
<katiias> life/death?
<BLisS101> oops
<katiias> wow caps lock
* katiias grins
<shimmer``> should one have secrets from their Dom/sub?
<GentleMaster2> Astra's point uis well taken...some fantasies can seldom be as satisfying as we imagine them to be
<BLisS101> some fantasies are extremely powerful, severe, intense, and they need to stay that way
<craken[LS> some fantasies can not be made into realities, however any form of those fantasies that one can make realy happen should be made to happen
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  why is big bird grinnin at bliss??
<BLisS101> everyone needs to have secrets
* katiias nods to bliss..exactly
<GentleMaster2> good for you blissie!!!!!!
<BLisS101> why should they be made to happen?????
* BLisS101 kicks GM' sshins again
* meow` curls up in the corner on a little cushion, begins to lick her furrrrr slowly .... listening to the chatter around her
<katiias> children children
<craken[LS> so that one can face them and truly experience them
<BLisS101> i would be very sad if some of my most severe fantasies lost their power because i attemoted to makew them happen
<BLisS101> why does one have to face/experience every fantasy?
* meow` grins, listening to BLisS101
<TheWolfe> some fantasies work much better as fantasies...
<BLisS101> i think that is a common mistake of thought in D/s
<GentleMaster2> *grins..smiling at blissie
<katiias> what if your fantasy takes you to the extreme of giving up your life in D/s play??? that shud stay.. fantasy... kinda dangerous for both parties if it becomes reality
<craken[LS> so that one can really savour them and find out what it is like to live ones fantasy
<BLisS101> but why is that important craken?
<TheWolfe> some people see irc as fantasy
<katiias> irc is fantasy
* meow` likes thinkinng of new fantasies
<shimmer``> then that goes beyond "sane and safe", katiias
<katiias> imho
<BLisS101> why cant some fantasies just be relished/valued for what they are instead of transofrming them into theater?
<katiias> it does, shimmer...
* meow` smiles and blows kitty kisses at candie{SirW}
<craken[LS> surely it is better to truly experience a fantasy than to just imagine it
<katiias> and as such... shud stay in fantasy
<BLisS101> says who?
* candie{SirW} waves to meow` :)
<TheWolfe> so kattias, you are not yourself when you are here?
* katiias thinks....
<shimmer``> i don't know
<GentleMaster2> I have had vivid fantasies that are far more moving than reality could ever be!
<katiias> good possibility there TW
<BLisS101> ya know reality is not all its cracked up to be, thats why we all love role playing
<shimmer``> i think most of my fantasies could be fun in rl
<BigBird`> good point BLisS101 
<shimmer``> hi candie :)
<BLisS101> i tried reality once, i found it too restrictive
<shimmer``> hi Kirspin Sir :)
<craken[LS> we are of course talking about ds fantasies.....how much better it is to truly experience an adventure than to just imagine it
* candie{SirW} waves to shimmer`` :)
<BLisS101> well crakne i agree to a point
<MistressAstra> Howdy Krispin
<BLisS101> all D/s is about fantasy
#bdsm-kw url is http://www.golden.net/~ehbc/
<shimmer``> i dunno .. if i didn't act on my fantasies, i wouldn't be here now .. or ever
<BernieRoehl> So leaving aside fantasies that are too violent or dangerous to carry out, what fantasies are best left as fantasies?
<BLisS101> but not all fantasy should be D/s
<craken[LS> oh now Bliss that is far from the truth
* BernieRoehl pats ChanServ on the head and gives it a cookie
<katiias> mm...
<BLisS101> fantasies of multiple partners if you are in a committed monogamous relationship
<katiias> if u leave aside ones that hurt others...then..none....
<GentleMaster2> the fantasies that hurt others
<craken[LS> ds is definetly not a fantasy
<Guest20219> gawddammit
<Guest20219> gasp! craken blasphemy
<katiias> thats under too dangerous to carry out, bliss
<GentleMaster2> and the fantasies that cant be improved upon in reality
<shimmer``> hi FMax
<BLisS100> any fantasies that would injure a perso's self image or self esteem
<shimmer``> no craken ... but it was to me for a long time, before i knew it wasn't completely sick and perverted .. i mean, ok it is ... but i like it anyway
<GentleMaster2> and any fantasy that makes blissie kick me in the shins!
<katiias> children children children
<BLisS100> who said i wasnt a good friend eh GM?
<Kirspin> Hi all
<craken[LS> if one lives ds then it cannot be a fantasy
* meow` smiles and waves a paw in welcome to Kirspin
<BLisS100> D/s IS fantasy, there are no real doms without the suspended disbelief of the submissive
<shimmer``> as i said .. *before* ...
<katiias> ohmy
<BernieRoehl> Yes, craken, that's true.  But within D/s, there are a lot of different activities.
<katiias> suspended disbelief?
<GentleMaster2> your the best blissie
<craken[LS> oh my Bliss that is a real mouthfull
<BLisS100> ya like watching a movie or live theater
<BLisS100> thanks for noticing GM
<BigBird`> what kinda cookie?
<shimmer``> hi Justice Sir
<JullieCD> evening all
<BigBird`> hi again JullieCD 
* meow` smiles and blows kitty kisses at Justice^
<shimmer``> hi JullieCD
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  chocochip cookie big bird
<craken[LS> yes Bernie but those different activities are not a fantasy if one acts and lives them
<JullieCD> again?
<BLisS100> katiias, fuck who?
<Justice^> hi shimmer`` 
<katiias> u
<BLisS100> oh YES THEY ARE
<BigBird`> u were herer earlier :)
<meow`> 'enuff ops
<katiias> ho
<katiias> o
<BLisS100> lol
<JullieCD> not this girl sorry
<Justice^> hi meow` 
* katiias laffs
<shimmer``> one can live D/s ... and still have D/s fantasies ...craken?
<BLisS100> anyone living D/s is lviing fantasy
* BigBird` shrugs if you say so :)
<JullieCD> i have been in bondagepix for almost 2 hrs
<JullieCD> anyway no matter
<craken[LS> oh yes I agree shimmer but how much better is it to live out those fantasies if it is possible
<BigBird`> terriffic!
<BLisS100> and there's nothing wrong with that, i live with the fantasy that i'm a princess and it works pretty well for me
<BLisS100> but lets call a spade a spade
<katiias> a spade princess?
<katiias> oh
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone have any fantasies that they've been reluctnat to share with their partners?
<GentleMaster2> ok blissie...wrong colour..but your a spade
<shimmer``> hi opal
<katiias> a spayed princess
<craken[LS> I disagree Bliss,, living it is not a fantasy, living it makes it reality
* katiias raises her hand
<GentleMaster2> I think a Queen of Spades
<katiias> yes Bernie..but..i did..share..and it did..work out...
* katiias grins
<BLisS100> i have fantasies i cant even verbalize, cant even write down in an empty room
<BigBird`> heya Justice^ :)
<BLisS100> theyre so powerful, so intense, so evere
<craken[LS> if one is truly a slave in reality then one should have NO fantasies that the Dom/me doesnot know about
<BLisS100> severe
<DarkCelt> You're like the siskel and Ebert of the D/s scene BlisS..
<BLisS100> oh boy, here we go, no one is a true slave unless ur in calcutta
<shimmer``> i think it takes time, Bernie ... sometimes it takes time to be able to share the really dark ones
<katiias> yes shimmer...exactly....
<katiias> but it can definitely..be worth it...
* katiias <~livin proof
<BernieRoehl> But eventually, one should share everything?
<GentleMaster2> or a teacher in Ontario blissie
<BLisS100> D/s slaver is the epitome of fantasy/role playing isnt it?
<craken[LS> that is not true Bliss,,,,, one is a true slave if one believes and lives as one.
<shimmer``> well, i am a beginner :)
<Justice^> hello BigBird` 
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  can this stay on TOPIC?????
<BLisS100> a true slave cant choose slavery
<BernieRoehl> Let's leave the "true slave" discussion for another week.  :-)
<craken[LS> oh Bliss how wrong you are
<BLisS100> no it isnt healthy to share everything
<BLisS100> lol ok BR
<TheWolfe> how much were you sold for craken? 
<BLisS100> as humans we need some privacy
<katiias> it might not be good to ... share...all.... pick and choose....
-GentleMaster2- thanks for the ping! at 21:15:43 on 07/18/99 ;) -=GltwQderk 4.1=-
-shimmer``- you love me!!!! you REALLY love me!!!!!!!!!
<BLisS100> we need some poart of us that is precious and ours alone
<craken[LS> as yet I havent been sold but should my Goddess decide to do so then i would be
<BLisS100> that doesnt have to be fantasy it can be any part of ourselves
<BLisS100> OMG
* BLisS100 falls over unconscious
<BernieRoehl> Let's try getting more specific here...
<TheWolfe> who sold you to her?
* katiias sweeps the debris out...
<craken[LS> you see Bliss you do not live ds you only play around in it
<katiias> BINGO
<shimmer``> it is easier to share fantasy then ..other parts at times
* katiias nods to shimmer
<BernieRoehl> Are there fantasies that you've chosen to keep to yourself, for fear of squicking your partner?
<katiias> yes
<BLisS100> perhaps that is because i love myself just as i am craken, and dont allow anyone to fuck me over
<GentleMaster2> squicking?
<GentleMaster2> neat word
<DarkCelt> I like it.
<BLisS100> i'm deathly afraid of squicking myself BR
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  ROFLMAO
<craken[LS> I was not sold to her I signed a contract to be her slave
<Wolfe^en> en says she has shared everything..that she can recall
<Karenkit> my biggest fantasy right now is having a long term partner....
<katiias> for the record...i'd like a video .. of bliss...squickin herself....
<katiias> i'd even PAY fer it
<DarkCelt> Me too.
<BLisS100> LOL katiias
<BLisS100> ROTFL
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  dyin here....laffin to death.....
<shimmer``> hi ke|gura
<MistressAstra> wonders why ones choices to become a slave or not always obtain such scrutiny
<^ke|gura> hello
<GentleMaster2> Id like a video of all the subs getting squicked
* meow` was gonna ask this question today of a fav Dom of hers, that she chatted with last night ...but will ask the room tonight ... does anyone in here really really REALLY feel like a slave? or does anyone REALLY believe they OWN a slave?
<BigBird`> LOL
<craken[LS> Bliss if one has a true ds relationship with a Do/me then one willnot be fucked over
<Wolfe^en> no & no
* BernieRoehl thinks that would be an excellent topic for another week, meow! :-)
* katiias is not available for squicking
<shimmer``> there are times that i do feel like a slave, meow ...
<katiias> video or non video
<MistressAstra> currnetly has a sub, but i do wish one day meow for my sub to become my slave
<meow`> sorry, BernieRoehl, that that WAS the topic ... fantasy & reality
<BLisS100> if i thought that was true craken i'd let someone inside my head to do whatever they want, but i like my grey matter just the way it is thanku very much
<craken[LS> meow I am a slave in every aspect of the word 
* meow` shakes her head
* BernieRoehl thinks... yes, it's actually may be, meow.
<BLisS100> i didnt scratch and clawe my way here to let someone come in and move my mental furniture around ya know?
<Wolfe^en> d/s is about freedom of choice  
<MistressAstra> slave n master is a fantasy as well for some.
* katiias chuckles
<craken[LS> ds is about finding true freedom as a sub or slave
<BLisS100> oh THANK YOU TW?en
<Wolfe^en> pigeon holing
<katiias> yes craken....
<abigaille> d/s is about making at least part of your fantasy a reality
* katiias finds true freedom..in submission...to r/l Dominant...
<BLisS100> thinks d/s is a fantasy that can accomodate a multitude of perversions, my perversions happen to keep my personality and grace intact
<craken[LS> or abi making all your fantasies into realities 
<shimmer``> there is no "one way" ...
<BigBird`> so do mine bliss
<shimmer``> all these perspectives are true
<BLisS100> dont get me started BB
<BLisS100> LOL
<Wolfe^en> I hate pissing contests
* BigBird` shrugs
<shimmer``> me too, Wolfen Sir
<BernieRoehl> One big aspect of the "fantasy vs reality" issue is practicality.
* katiias laffs
<BigBird`> so dont pee
<BLisS100> thats cuz u dont piss very far TW
<BigBird`> lol
<abigaille> that's true craken...for some at least...
<BernieRoehl> Does anyone have fantasies that are impossible (or nearly impossible) to stage?
<katiias> sheesh..this channel is way to ws-sensitive...
<katiias> nope...
<BLisS100> YES BR
* katiias <~borin fantasies..
<shimmer``> i always lose at pissin contests ... *sigh* i think it's an appendage-lack thing
<craken[LS> i find that slavery has kept my personality whole and has expanded it more so than most of the other things that I have done in my life
<BLisS100> ws sensitive?
<MistressAstra> true Bernie it is very hard to juggle family,work, ect. for a 24/7 relationship
<BernieRoehl> So is it purely a question of time, Astra?
<BLisS100> my fantasies require TONS of money
<katiias> pee-sensitive bliss...
<BLisS100> watersports?
<katiias> yup
<BLisS100> just say it katiias, "water sports"
<katiias> ws
<shimmer``> Bernie ... impossible? no .... dangerous? yes
<MistressAstra> yes Bernie i think so,
<craken[LS> there are of course some fantasies that cannot phisycaly be lived out but those that can are much better in reality
<BLisS100> u wont be struck by lightening
<Wolfe^en> some fantasies aren't possible because of moral dilemma for some individuals
<katiias> rofl
<BLisS100> yes wolfe
<BLisS100> i agree
<GentleMaster2> how about unlawful fantasies????
<BLisS100> also agree GM
<katiias> already touched on that...
<katiias> dangerous
<katiias> violent
<BLisS100> what about too expensive? LOL
<BLisS100> well it doesnt have to be dangerous or violent to be unlawful
<MistressAstra> publiuc play fantasy could have legal reprucusions
<katiias> how much whipped cream do U need ???
<BernieRoehl> The reason I ask (aside from spurring discussion and keeping it on-track...) is that I've participated in some fairly elaborate scenarios, so I think there many things that actually are possible to stage or simulate.
<katiias> it cud have, MistressAstra..true....
<GentleMaster2> or how about unethical
<craken[LS> one can save up so that at some time in the future those expensive ones can be brought to life
<BLisS100> did i hear the word "simulate"? GASP!
<Wolfe^en> forget legal, moral implications of some public play should be considered
<katiias> simulate a generic versin eh
<BLisS100> "stage"?
<GentleMaster2> like wiring up my cam in a play party so I could watch you all at home on my puter!
<shimmer``> damn, i thought it was "stimulate"
* shimmer`` pouts
<MistressAstra> i think for me one must delve into the subbie mind, and try to make that fantasy as real as poosible for both the parties
<katiias> not catchin me
<Wolfe^en> try just talking to them
<MistressAstra> *looks at GM.**
<BLisS100> i thought dommes had THEIR fantasies madea  reality. who cares about what the sub wants (jk)
<Wolfe^en> lol bliss
<Karenkit> so.....here's a question for the room. What is fantasy and what is reality...for you? in specifics. name the things that fall into each group
<GentleMaster2> keep lookin Astra..bound to see something you like
<MistressAstra> >:P
<BLisS100> they're here to please ME right?
<BLisS100> now THERE'S fantasy
<katiias> mm....lemme think...
<MistressAstra> wonder if blis is from Venus or Mars :P
<BLisS100> that the dom is being served when in actuality the dom is doing the serving
<craken[LS> you are right Bliss but there must be something given in return to maintain the relationship
<katiias> bliss is from Saturn
<Wolfe^en> what is still a mental image is a fantasy
<GentleMaster2> certainly Astra..blissie isnt from Uranus
<MistressAstra> LO L
<BLisS100> not your anus anyway GM
<GentleMaster2> well thats a relief blissie
<BLisS100> qam i the only one who will admit that D/s is all a chaade, that its master and servant in reverse?
<BLisS100> charade
<katiias> its play
<MistressAstra> to a point bliss i agree
<Wolfe^en> we can be in the middle of a very real scene & parts of it takes us into fantasy
<abigaille> Bernie...a question...if the fantasy is very elaborate to stage...does it take away from the "reality" of it?
* meow` often uses the word "game" and it upsets people
<BernieRoehl> Good question, abi.
<katiias> game is ok too...
* katiias thinks...
<BernieRoehl> Certainly it does for the people doingthe staging, but for the submissive it seems to be *very* effective.
<craken[LS> ds is so interactive that both the sub or slave and the Domme are in control at different times
<nitebound> Good evening all
<BLisS100> u wont hear me use the word master but i like the spanish term maestro, i see very clearly how the dom is conducting, directing, but dont tell me they are being served, its all for the sub
<MistressAstra> actually craken both parties are in control at all times. :P
<BernieRoehl> The classic example of an elabortate fantasy would be a "kidnapping".
<craken[LS> oh dear Bliss you are missing a great deal out of ds
<BLisS100> in yer opinion craken, in mine i am enrichign the rest of ME, by not surrendering it to someone else
<BernieRoehl> It can take a lot of people to plan and coordinate it, but from the submissive's standpoint it can be a fantasy come true.
<Wolfe^en> bliss, perhaps that is what you see, but that hasn't been My experience
* meow` smiles ... yeah, i can't ever use the "m" word either
<GentleMaster2> "m"s the word!
<BLisS100> so wolfe canes en because HE likes it? because it gets HIM off?
* katiias uses the M in r/l....
<shimmer``> i can't agree with you, Bliss
<meow`> but, BernieRoehl, let me know if you can arrange group kidnappings, k?
<craken[LS> but to share oneself completly with someone else can be the most meaningfull of relationships
<BigBird`> lol bliss
<MistressAstra> bbiab
<BLisS100> in every dom there is a voice that says "please"
<Wolfe^en> ens' reaction gets Me off..yes!
<BLisS100> in every sub there is a voice that says "i dare you"
* katiias nods to Wolfe..yes...
<BLisS100> ah en's reaction
<BernieRoehl> Group kidnappings?  As in kidnapping a group?
<BLisS100> i see
<BigBird`> of course bliss
<shimmer``> sure, lots of sadists ... and Masters .. do things for the reaction
<GentleMaster2> I always use the word please blissie, thank you!
<BLisS100> then in a round about eay its all for en
<BLisS100> way
<BLisS100> if she gets her pleasure then u get urs yes?
<katiias> they BOTH get pleasure
<katiias> they wouldnt DO it if they DIDNT
<shimmer``> pleasure from pain, pleasure from pleasure
<Wolfe^en> I'm a sadist
<Wolfe^en> I DO enjoy it 
<BLisS100> ya but u wouldnt get pleasuyre from caning some teenager on the street would u? or one of en's kids? or her mother?
<Wolfe^en> I enjoy turning fantasy into reality also
<GentleMaster2> hmmmm teenager eh blissie....well.....
<Wolfe^en> no I wouldn't...
<BLisS100> u get pleasure from being a sadist with en because she gets pleasure from being a masochist
<Wolfe^en> yes..it is mutual
<shimmer``> isn't that what it's all about??
<BLisS100> but starts with her
<shimmer``> mutuality?
<BLisS100> her pleasure
<Wolfe^en> en performs oral sex on Me...physically, she gets nothing from it, but psychologically she enjoys My reaction
<BLisS100> ya ditto, so?
<Wolfe^en> she certainly wouldn't perform oral sex on anyone off the street
<Wolfe^en> so it is mutual
<BLisS100> would she if u told her to?
<craken[LS> oops i must away`, my Goddess requires me....maybe to turn a fantasy into reality heheheheh
<BLisS100> because it pleased u?
<craken[LS> good nite to one and all
<katiias> a Dom..once told me... the submissive in me... receives pleasure... satisfaction...from... the satisfaction i give to the Dom...  and it was very true..... 
<Wolfe^en> THAT is none of your business *smile*
<BLisS100> of course it isnt wolfe, u miss the point of my rhetorical question
<MrDubious> hi brandy
<katiias> so in that vein... the Dominant receives pleasure... from participating in the fantasy of the submissive.... whether He/She gets their "own" gratification from a particular scene or not... and vice versa....
* ^brandy waves and sits down...
<BLisS100> sigh
<BernieRoehl> The reason the fantasy vs reality issue is so important (to me, in any case) is that some of the most satisfying experiences I've had have involved taking a submissive's deepest fantasies and breathing life into them.
<katiias> mmhmm
<katiias> yes
<BernieRoehl> My gratification comes from creating a reality from a submissive's fantasies.
* BLisS100 thinks fantasies have a life of their own
<BernieRoehl> Her gratification comes from having her "dreams come true".
<BLisS100> wow, if only a dom could make my dreams come true
<GentleMaster2> When you wish upon a Bernie...
* BernieRoehl laughs
<timara> hello E/everyone
<BLisS100> i always found dreams needed sweat and toil to make come true
* timara blows Bernie a kiss
<Karenkit> Bernie, can you tell us about one of the more complex fantasies that you have helped come true?
<abigaille> yes Bernie...our fantasies drive our reality too....
<shimmer``> fantasies drive reality outside of D/s too
<BernieRoehl> A schoolroom fantasy is one.
<BLisS100> YEhanku
* katiias hands bliss a kleenex
<MrDubious> :)
<BernieRoehl> Gesundheit, Bliss.
<BLisS100> lol i meant yes thanku
<GentleMaster2> Tar ti`mara
<BernieRoehl> We actually used a room at a local university during the in-between-term break.
* meow` doesn't approve of schoolroom fantasies
<meow`> i think they are border line, i wouldn't do it, but i guess some do
<katiias> ?
<MrDubious> why?
* shimmer`` loves her lil schoolgirl uniform :))
* BernieRoehl smiles... that's fine, meow -- then don't do them. :-)
* katiias grins
<GentleMaster2> I like shimmers school girl outfit too
* Karenkit listens to Bernie
* meow` smiles at BernieRoehl ... k ;)
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  hng alert... lol
<BernieRoehl> I had a friend of mine in one room which we called the "principle's office", and I was in a classroom with the two submissives.
<GentleMaster2> in fact I like shimmers school girl outfit alot!
<shimmer``> thankee, GM2 Sir :)
<BernieRoehl> That gave us a two-tier system of discipline.
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  gm is gittin more weird all the time...
* meow` wonders if anyone ever fantasizes about nun fantasies?
<meow`> or grocery stores?
<meow`> or cemetaries
<shimmer``> grocery stores :)
<meow`> ok, so i just squicked myself
* katiias personally likes Bernie's .. ... schoolroom..one...
<GentleMaster2> in fact...shimmer..you can sit on my lap anytime in your tiny school girl outfit 
* katiias chuckles
<MrDubious> oh i am sure they do meow...
* timara giggles
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  ohgawwdddd
<BernieRoehl> When we first discussed it, we came up with all kinds of reasons why it was an "impossible" fantasy.
* katiias watches the discussion turn into a pickup joint....
* BLisS100 would like to hear about using someone else's property without permission to get a sub's rocks off
<katiias> but it wasnt impossible, Bernie?
<BernieRoehl> (Where do we find the uniforms, where do we get a classroom, how can you have only two "students" etc etc)
<GentleMaster2> *not picking up anyone..just reading the class role and living out my fantasy and putting into reality katiias...
* shimmer`` smiles at GM :)
* katiias nods..uh huh
<BernieRoehl> No, not impossible -- just took some planning.  And two students makes sense if they've been kept behind for detention.
<GentleMaster2> *smiles back at shimmer
<meow`> ok ... BernieRoehl ... can we get back to the schoolroom scene?
<meow`> cuz why would any any ANY teacher ever get into bdsm with 2 "naughty" students
<MrDubious> :)
<GentleMaster2> Im there meow...man am I there!
<GentleMaster2> shimmer is too
<meow`> i think it is awful, sorry, dear ... but it sets bells off in my head, and hun, i've done a lot, ok?
<katiias> its a fantasy meow
<katiias> only a fantasy
<katiias> a playing out of a scene
<Wolfe^en> exactly kat
<BernieRoehl> The idea was that it was the olden days, when students could get disciplined in class (and eventually, sent on to the principal's office for more severe correction)
<meow`> a fantasy ... i know, katiias ... a fantasy about a teacher and 2 students and bdsm
<meow`> i'm sorry, i don't like it
<katiias> nobody is gonna take this into a real school
<BLisS100> kat what is the fantasy was for the sub to be an infant and the dom to bea a molester? is that ok?
<BernieRoehl> Not for everyone, meow.
<meow`> katiias ... BernieRoehl just said he did
<katiias> meow...
* Karenkit nods at Bernie 'ok, so you get around all that, and it isn't hard for you since you work at a University, but at some point it becomes just another whack 'em play, right? What makes that a fantasy played out?
* meow` ^5s BLisS100 ... yeah, we are talking about roleplaying and children ... even if the people AREN'T children
<katiias> nobody is GOING to GO into  a REAL school and DO it to REAL students...this was SET UP
<BernieRoehl> The fact that we remain "in character", the costuming, and so on.
<BLisS100> and dont u have any ethical dilemmas about unlawful use of public property?
<meow`> katiias ... a university is a real school, dear ... 
<katiias> ya missed da point
<shimmer``> yes, a real school for people over 18
<meow`> and i'm sorry, dear .... but it just doesn't sit well with me ... cuz of the child issues
<MrDubious> yes meow..but the characters arent real students..but consenting adults aware that they are in a role playing situation
<katiias> well..sorry..but i for one..appreciate Bernie's telling of this... 
* Karenkit nods 'I find acting kinda pointless I guess.....unless I'm on a stage
<GentleMaster2> hmmmmmm dreams of Bishop Straghan school and looks for 18 yr old shimmer
<Wolfe^en> so what is ethical about dicussing the pros of slavery when thousands were killed as real slaves?
* meow` is trying to deal with reality and fantasy issues here ... and there are lots of things that i have done obviously that were to bring my sexual fantasies into reality
<MrDubious> and they could even be students...*adult students*...but consenting adults..
<abigaille> there are no child issues meow....they were all adults
* shimmer`` grins at GM2
<Karenkit> but in intimate play situations.....if I want a fantasy to come true....I want, oh....to become a cumslut in a gangbang
<BLisS100> thinks meow is touching on the child within
<Wolfe^en> so ageplay is something we better not discuss lol
<MrDubious> just hopefully there is not a conflict of interest..such as real students and teachers .. so as to avoid lawsuits later..heh heh
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I should have pointed out that everyone involved was over 21.  Over 31, in fact.  :-)
<GentleMaster2> in Ontario ...age of consent is not 18
<meow`> but real sex slaves in 1999 .... and school room fantasies (even if done by adults) are waaaaaayyy overboard
* meow` looks at BernieRoehl ... but you are describing a scene that happened in a university in ontario ...
<MrDubious> :)
<Wolfe^en> shall we discuss rape fantasies?
<shimmer``> it is 16 in canada for many things .. age of majority is 18 ...
<BLisS100> yes wolfe lets
* meow` looks at GentleMaster2 ... i am aware of the age of consent, dear, i worked in law for 12 years
* ^brandy chuckles..
<Wolfe^en> it was a rhetorical question bliss
<GentleMaster2> *fearing a detention coming on..I 'd like to continue the school fantasy
-katiias-  {{{ katiias's Op Notice }}}  lost control...ooopsies....
* shimmer`` grins
<timara> sorry meow have to step in on that one real sex slaves in 1999 is very real
<BLisS100> LOL wolfe
<Wolfe^en> *smile*
<MrDubious> yes meow..but people can do it in a park or somewhere else..it is borderline voyerism..but the room just set the fantasy
<meow`> ok ... so a rape fantasy involving a ageplay is inappropriate ... but a fantasy between adults involving a rape scene with adults ... is that ok?  hmmmmmmm, yeah, i wouldn't have trouble with that
<Karenkit> there's no acting in that, but it will likely remain a fantasy 'cause of the reality of AIDS and other diseases. The logistics of determining that 10+ men are disease-free and putting us all in a room at the same time...
<GentleMaster2> if a fantasy is a fantasy..what the problem with ageplay?
<Karenkit> way way too difficult. 
* meow` looks at timara ... real sex slaves in 1999 did not consent to it, and yes they exist, in asia and the middle east and lots of other places .... but you gonna tell me that they exist in ontario, canada?
<BLisS100> i think i would be fucked up and playing with a fucked up dom if i had a child/molester fantasy turned into a reality...there's something precious in me even as a 36 yr old that should not be fucked with
<shimmer``> fantasy is fantasy ... as long as minors aren't involved ... who cares what you do in the sanctity of your own mind?
<MrDubious> meow..there can be "real" consentual sex slaves...
<Wolfe^en> there are sex slaves in Toronto meow
<meow`> i'm sorry ... but i have real serious qualms about age play when it involves child issues 
<timara> yes meow it does 
<Wolfe^en> they are teenaged hookers
<meow`> yes, Wolfe^en, i know ... but it is illegal, etc. ... 
<Wolfe^en> child issues?
<BLisS100> can we talk about how turning some fantasies into reality diminishes a person?
<shimmer``> that's your choice, meow ... but as long as you don't try and control what i fantasize and act out, it's cool with me
* katiias thinks... that... if you are very secure in yourself... dragging no baggage... you can play any fantasies..and not be afraid of damaging..yourself.. mentally..emotionally.. whatever...
<Wolfe^en> also how it can enhance a person?
<Karenkit> why is a rape fantasy involving ageplay inappropriate,period? inappropriate for individuals perhaps but inappropriate period is....well, making a judgement on my life, frankly.
<BigBird`> zactly kat
* meow` looks at shimmer`` ... that is rather convenient ... except for one issue .... who says that the Dom who plays today with an adult in an age play (child) doesn't tomorrow turn to a real child
<GentleMaster2> reality is distinct from bdsm role plays with consenting adults....what about those guys that wear diapers...now they are acting outr being babies..is that bad!
<Wolfe^en> agreed Karen
<shimmer``> meow ... give me some empirical proof that it happens ....
<BLisS100> seems to me we're always talking about role playing and theater
<BLisS100> i coulda sworn someone was telling me for them d/s is real
* meow` sighs ... we're talking the transition between fantasy and reality, right? this is theatre, not real life, this is a game then if you are fantasizing about being children in diapers or school outfits, whatever ... you just proved the theory that this is a game and not reality
<katiias> many people have very horrid childhood trauma... they need to be very aware... of it.. and not get into..something..that drags it up and hurts them further.. emotionally... spiritually... mentally... in any way
<Wolfe^en> craken left bliss
<shimmer``> you can't prove a negative like that. besides, i trust my judegement enough to know the heart of the person i play with
<BLisS100> oh boy shimmer, do u know how many subs have histories of abuse? childhood abuse? sexual abuse?
* meow` congratulates shimmer`` on being with someone very trusting ...
<BLisS100> lol wolfe
<Wolfe^en> vanilla or s/m....shit happens
<shimmer``> yes Bliss ... count me amongst them. your point?
<BLisS100> yes it does wolfe
<GentleMaster2> fantasy comes from what...an inner desire to do whats imagined..but taboo?
<BLisS100> me thinks a woman who has been sexually abused as a child should do a ton of therapy before they submitt o a dom...period
<abigaille> do you know how many people who are not subs have histories of abuse
* Karenkit shakes her head 'sorry folks....too many conversation streams for me. primitive IRC client, little patience...etcetc...gotta run
<meow`> yes, it does, Wolfy ... and that's why .. when we are talking about fantasy and reality, we have to really be careful about some of this .... 
<Wolfe^en> triggers can be discussed if they are known, but what about one that does surface during play
* Karenkit waves 'later'
<BLisS100> yes abigfaille and they should get therapy before they get into an uneven power relationship too
<Wolfe^en> & wasn't known
<katiias> yes Wolfe...triggers SHOULD be and MUST be discussed...
* meow` nods, agreeing with Wolfe^en ... i've seen that happen in a scene with a sub .... a trigger that no one predicted ....
<shimmer``> i know myself well enough to know my parameters. I also know myself well enough to know that One that i give my heart to, would be trustworthy
<BLisS100> thinks most people dont know all their triggers unless they have don tons of inner work
<katiias> and if it comes to surface in play...its very much the Dom/me in charge who needs to be aware its happened..and to stop...
<Wolfe^en> s/m is not an alternative to therapy by any means, but things come out that may never surface in a vanilla situation
<GentleMaster2> *trys to note to discuss triggers with shimmer in pm later
<Wolfe^en> is that bad?
<meow`> no, Wolfe^en, that's not bad
<meow`> that is reality, cuz things come out in vanilla also much later
<Wolfe^en> true, it is how we deal with them that is important
<BernieRoehl> Discussing "triggers" is especially important when enacting fantasies.  Sometimes the fantasies are so powerful because they come so close to the triggers without pressing them.
* katiias is very aware of her...triggers...and safety issues..and tells not only the... Dom..but the safety person...as well...
<BLisS100> it is how we deal withourselves which is PARAMOUNT
* meow` looks around at the room .... i'm sorry, but some fantasies i think are best left un-played .... esp age roleplay involving childhood issues ....
<GentleMaster2> I agree bliss...to thine own self be true!
<BigBird`> swan!
<BLisS100> i think its irreponsible of a submissive to come into a d/s relationship with abuse baggage
<katiias> ..and of a Dom/me?
<swann{ME}> hi hi BidBird *smile* 
<BLisS100> because the drive to make fantasy into reality is not a noble one
<shimmer``> or into any relationship, Bliss
<Wolfe^en> we ask that the vanilla world not judge us, but we certainly enjoy judging each other
<meow`> and i really can't see how a free individual, male or female, feminist or whatever, could really consider themselves part of a slave/master relationship in 1999 ...
<BLisS100> agreed shimmer but ESPECIALLY one of power exchange
<katiias> ayup Wolfe^en...
<timara> sorry meow have to disagree on that one too
<BLisS100> i always judge wolfe, but i try to also be tolerant
* meow` likes that phrase ... power exchange ... temporary, contractual ....
* meow` smiles at timara....
<BernieRoehl> Bliss, I don't think people can do anything about their baggage -- except be open and honest aboutit.
<Wolfe^en> what about Dom/mes who may have abuse issues?
<GentleMaster2> what is the drive into a relationship then shimmer....if its not noble (if its not nobler in the mind to suffer the stings and arrows of outrageous fortune)
<abigaille> I think you meet them here every day meow
<meow`> hun, that's ok to disagree
<shimmer``> the beauty of feminism is that is allows me to be whomever i am with no qualms about appearances to others.
<meow`> no, i see a lot of fantasy in here, abi
<BLisS100> i disagree BR, therapy can do everything with baggage
<timara> maybe this is not a good time for me to open my mouth
<katiias> why..timara?
<GentleMaster2> yes...therapy is the organizer of baggage
* BLisS100 mumbles something about thinking u NEVER hear about doms who have abuse issues, and i bet there are tons of them, but to admit a weakness? unheard of
<BigBird`> its always a good time
<BLisS100> doms present themselvesd as infallible, all knowing, all powerful
<BLisS100> bah
* meow` smiles again at timara ... go ahead, i've yacked my mouth off, its your turn
<BigBird`> not all bliss
<BernieRoehl> Yes, but saying that someone shouldn't pursue a D/s relationship until they've conquered all their demons seems excessive to me.
<abigaille> then you aren't listening meow
<Wolfe^en> agreed bliss
<BLisS100> i believe thats "slings and arrows"
<GentleMaster2> well Im not omnipotent
* meow` looks at abi ... i listen in here all the time, abi ... it is mostly fantasy and not very real
<katiias> nobody ever conquers ALL their demons...
<timara> look a do believe that there is Master/slavery happening all over the world even in Ontario it is very real 
<GentleMaster2> omnipresent though!
<abigaille> then you aren't listening meow
<timara> being a slave is not only fantasy for some people it is a way of life
<swann{ME}> to you meow ....because it's not part of your repetoire but not to those living it 
<meow`> why?  cuz i don't believe what you believe, that means I'M not listening?  
<BLisS100> no not all BB
<BLisS100> but alot
<BigBird`> ok ill give ya that ;)
<shimmer``> slings and arrows ... but not of outrageous fortune, methinks
<GentleMaster2> slings=stings in bdsm blissie
<swann{ME}> perhaps it's difficult for you to understand but that does not mean it does not exist 
<BLisS100> perhaps because u dont have demons BR
<katiias> everybody has demons Bliss
<BLisS100> i think D/s is a very serious set of circumstances
<abigaille> no meow, because you don't believe what people tell you about themselves
<BLisS100> i made dam sure my side of the street was cleasn before i considered surrendering myself to someone
<meow`> swann{ME}, sorry, but i can't accept it in 1999, not willingly, not realistically
<timara> i am very proud of the fact that i am more slave then sub
<BigBird`> well meow that is your choice :)
<meow`> abi, in here??   the truth????   
<BernieRoehl> Well, it's after 10 pm.
<GentleMaster2> I am VERY hinest with subs I meet....I think I owe that to them..to let them know me as well as I know myself
<shimmer``> be slow to judge and quick to understand ... no?
<katiias> tks for discussion, Bernie.... *s*
<Wolfe^en> time to get back to hi & bye
<BigBird`> oopsie....after 10...bernie is gonna turn into a pumpkin...
<swann{ME}> then you are wearing blinders and won't believe ...and i guess you feel very powerful to think that only your way is correct 
<katiias> are pumpkin fantasies acceptable?
<BigBird`> sure baby, and how!
<BernieRoehl> Yes, I do have to get going.
<BigBird`> pumpkin pie fantasies! YUM!
<BernieRoehl> But thanks, everyone, for participating in the discussion.
<GentleMaster2> only if cinderella is a valid fantasy katiias
* katiias wavs bye bye to the pumpkin....
<timara> lol
<BLisS100> proud to surrender your entire wilkl to another human being? oh boy i have a problem with THAT fantasy if u believe it
* meow` looks at swann{ME} ... no, hun .. but i have had lots of people try to convince me and i haven't been yet
<katiias> loL@GM
<BernieRoehl> A lot of different perspectives, and some strong (and strongly voiced) opinions!
<katiias> cindyrella
* meow` thanks BernieRoehl for the kewl discussion
<BernieRoehl> See you all later... have a good evening!
<BLisS100> GM i doubt that, exactly what do u consider yourself to be a master of?
* ^brandy smiles at Bernie..have a good night
<timara> thanks Bernie
<katiias> my u find yer cindyrella, GM.... *s*
<Wolfe^en> night Bernie
<katiias> my=may
<GentleMaster2> nice Bernie....any blood pressure pills in that bag of tricks
<katiias> kint type after 10
<Justice^> nite Bernie
Session Close: Sun Jul 18 22:11:40 1999