July 17, 2005 EhBC Online Discussion

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<ModBot> Welcome to or regular Sunday night discussion. Please refrain from sending "hi" and "bye" messages until after 10 pm. Also note that the discussion is being logged. If you wish to remain anonymous, you should change your nick. Tonight's discussion topic is "Qualities of a Good Dom and Qualities of a Good Sub". The discussion is unmoderated. Enjoy!
<jen{SE}> ohhhh, don't start that again Sir, specially after i had to wrestly You into it last time
<Justice> evening jewl
<Grex> lol
<pandora``> i noticed jen, you really had to force him
<Grex> thought it was a horizontal shower!
<jen{SE}> *lol*
<jen{SE}> though i still wonder where all those bubbles under You were coming from
* Grex has a hole in his swimmy trunks... for venting
<jen{SE}> qualities of a good submissive when Grex is around, Port, open humidor and hot tub *grins*
* Grex smiles with appreciation
<pandora``> and of course, someone to hold the towel as He exits the hot tub
* ravynne{WS} thinks of the "stick"
* Grex smiles... think of the neighbors
<Grex> my friend
<ravynne{WS}> nodnod
<jen{SE}> *lol*, neighbors used to strange noises, they just walk wide berth around us
<jen{SE}> so qualities of a good Dominant are?
* jen{SE} besides breathing
<pandora``> lol @jen
<^dana> wicked with a flogger
<jewel`{F}> good swinging arm
<jen{SE}> two minds thinking alike
<ravynne{WS}> sadistic
<^dana> lol
<ravynne{WS}> yet...compassionate
<jewel`{F}> patience, understanding
<jen{SE}> consistent
<^dana> consistency
<ravynne{WS}> patience
<^dana> reliable
<pandora``> consistency
<ravynne{WS}> trustworthy
<^dana> lol
<jewel`{F}> realistic
<^dana> responsible
<ravynne{WS}> oo ^dana that's a big one
<^dana> nods and nods..
<Rhi> good evening all (heya heya dana sis)
<jewel`{F}> sense of humour
<ravynne{WS}> confidence
<^dana> excellent one jewel... very high on my list...
<jen{SE}> what about willingness to learn and grow in Their position
<jewel`{F}> very much so jen{SE}, as well as willingness to admit when they are wrong or have been mistaken
<jen{SE}> i like to think the relationship will grow both in commitment but also in depth of knowledge
<Rhi> a lack of egoism
<^dana> an adventurous spirit helps
<jen{SE}> no that i would suspect is almost impossible to find Rhi *grins*
<Rhi> lol
<^dana> lol
<jen{SE}> no should have been now... geesk
<jewel`{F}> a good listener as well as being able to express themselves well
<Rhi> actually.. I've found that the Dominants that I respect the most.. while they are egoists.. are not egoTists.. if you can appreciate the difference
<ravynne{WS}> i agree with jewel`{F} communication skills are very important
<Rhi> and an unwavering dedication to ethical behavior and honesty
<jen{SE}> okay, so now "where" are all these perfect Dom's hiding
<Rhi> in committed relationships already LOL
<`abi{A}> I believed they are cued up for sainthood jen{SE}
<^dana> <== still looking... and boy is dating fun... lol
<jewel`{F}> all taken jen{SE}
<^dana> lol abi
<Rhi> <~~ looking and not at all liking the dating game
<jen{SE}> :-) abi
<^dana> lol Rhi...
<jen{SE}> same place all the perfect submissives are
<Grex> the perfect Doms are hiding with the perfect subs
<Rhi> in books... or non existant in Reality
<^dana> needs direction then.. lol
* jen{SE} line for sainthood forms to the right
<Rhi> (and I AM a perfect sub, thankyouverymuch.. perfectly Myself, that is)
* ravynne{WS} thinks the world would be boring if they were all perfect
<^dana> lol...
<krista-F> i exist to keep the world from being boring in that case
<`abi{A}> so...then what qualifies as 'good' as opposed to 'perfect' ... what are your minimum standards?
<^dana> so true ravynne...
<Rhi> minimum standards.. hmmmm... ethical, honest to a fault, at least willing to work on communication if he doesn't already have good skills, and compitant with a flogger LOL
<jen{SE}> honest about themselves
<jen{SE}> can work with what you know
<Rhi> doesn't already think they're diety's gift to the known universe and lord/master/dom/god of BDSM and Ds
<^dana> the mindset is what first attracts me...
<Rhi> I don't know about that so much any more in myself, dana...
<Rhi> I've been meeting more who present themselves as Nilla.. but who are.. both kink aware, and very Dominant in personality, without the typically Ds/BDSM mindset
<^dana> skills can be taught...
<jen{SE}> skills can but desire cannot
<Rhi> that's true
<jen{SE}> if someone really does not get their buttons pushed by this, they will fade out eventually
<`abi{A}> ...okay...and what qualities do you think you offer as submissives?
<jen{SE}> it is a great deal of work on both sides
<^dana> exactly jen... the mindset should come naturally... not overplayed..
<Rhi> ok.. I can see what the two of you mean by that
<jen{SE}> *sigh*, i am still trying to figure that out
<^dana> all of the above..
<Rhi> honesty.. loyalty... caring... concern for their well being and happiness
<jen{SE}> have had many conversations lately about just that.. what do i offer
<Rhi> completeness in a functional, loving relationship
<jen{SE}> went to a seminar where the submissive running it actually had a resume
<Rhi> and coffee without them having to get off their own butt to get it LOL
<^dana> any conclusions jen?
<paperclip[B]> i've always wondered what i have to offer a Dom that nobody else could.
<jen{SE}> nope dana..
<Rhi> oh heavens.. there isn't anything other than my unique perspective and individuality that I can offer that No One else can
<^dana> your own personality paperclip... views ideas humour...
<jen{SE}> resume may sound strange, but i actually think a version there of is not a bad idea for both submissives and Dom's
<jen{SE}> a sort of list of what i am good at, and what i'm not, what i want to learn, what i am interested in
<Rhi> my opinions and views.. my unique perspective... my experience within the community... those things that make me... ME.. that is what each of us has to offer that no one else can offer to the same person
<paperclip[B]> true enough ^dana. but the only conclusion i've reached and i think perhaps the most important, is the fact that i've never felt truly/fully submissive to anyone until the one i have came along. i didn't realize it until i met him that it runs as deep as it does...if that makes sense?
<^dana> writing down what youve learnt about yourself isnt a bad idea either... what you are looking for in a partner
<Rhi> I actually balk at the idea, jen.. because offering a Resume sounds to much like I'm applying for a Job.. not a Relationship
<jen{SE}> but at some levels i feel like i am
<Rhi> if I have to feel like it's Work to submit to someone.. then the chemistry doesn't exist for me to be with them
<jen{SE}> i am offering something, what is that something, besided the overused term gift *grins*
<Rhi> its' not a Gift, jen.. it's a Privilage
<Rhi> one that is Earned
<ravynne{WS}> you offer yourself....is that not enough?
<^dana> it does paperclip... im the opposite.. ive always be very self reliant but was comfortable being the submissive partner in every relationship... it took me a while to understand that wasnt a weakness or something to be embarassed about
<`abi{A}> I think the idea of the resume is not to
<`abi{A}> apply..but rather to think about what it is that you offer
<`abi{A}> submissives are notoriously bad at that
<Rhi> Gifts are things that you give and do not then have the option to take back without loss of honor... a Privilage is something that you grant to someone because they have Earned the right to be given to them
<jen{SE}> exactly abi
<`abi{A}> apparently we think that Dominants find us attractive despite what we offer rather than because of what we offer
<Rhi> oh.. I'm pretty sure that the few dominant types that I'm talking with currently find me attractive Because of what I offer.. but they also aren't Typical lol
<^dana> im not sure i would give the resume to potential partners though... getting to know them first is better and them you... its like the bdsm activities list.. ive stopped using that simply because a few used it like a menu... i have one of those.. three of those.. yikes... lol...
<paperclip[B]> exactly ^dana
<jen{SE}> self examination is something i use to grow.. i can't improve if i don't honestly look at what i have and what i have not
<^dana> very nicely said paperclip
<ravynne{WS}> how often do you do this self examination jen{SE}?
<Rhi> true.. growth depends on examination
<paperclip[B]> truthfully, i don't tend to analyze what makes me a good sub and what makes him a good Dom. if the right "connection" (to use the word again) is there...i think for most people things would progress naturally? yes/no?
<paperclip[B]> thank you ^dana?
<Rhi> but examining things To much.. can lead you in logic circles and accomplish nothing
<paperclip[B]> oops... -? hehe
<jen{SE}> whenever SE is away.. time to brush up *lol*
<^dana> lol rhi... sooooooooo true...
<ravynne{WS}> jen{SE}..do you and SE ever do that together?
<Rhi> that's actually where my problem lies.. not in examining myself, my wants, my needs... but in Over examination
<jen{SE}> not examaning can lead to missing things
<jen{SE}> yes sometimes ravynne{WS}
<^dana> i agree with that paperclip... it really boils down to the commitment and communication
<jen{SE}> particullary when i feel i am losing direction
<paperclip[B]> :)
<paperclip[B]> i think so
<Rhi> after 20 years involved in BDSM, and 7 different relationships with dominants that lasted significant periods of time or emotional commitment... I've gotten to the point now where it often feels... Futile.. to reexamine things
<paperclip[B]> ^dana...i think communication is a key word for tonight's topic too. if two people don't discuss things and speak about likes and dislikes..how they'll work these differences/likes out...things can break down quickly. i see it as no different than a vanilla relationship...just perhaps the things you discuss are of a different nature.
<Rhi> my preferences for play haven't changed in Years.. my limits list has been pretty much set in stone for a decade... I know intimately who I am and what I do and don't like and will and won't put up with or look for...
<Rhi> how do you..... Re Center yourself.. or find Newness again, when facing that?
<paperclip[B]> i'm thinking my opinion of a good Dom and sub are simply two people who are able to be open with each other and enjoy the common likes and are able to discuss and work out the uncommon elements.
<^dana> i would disagree with you on the vanilla aspect... but then my idea of the "lifestyle" perhaps doesnt match yours... my marriage could have been called D/s by some definiations but only because of my submissive nature... i dont consider it "lifestyle" though...
<paperclip[B]> i see your point. and agree with it....mind you..i do tend to use the word "lifestyle' a lot LOL
<^dana> that i absolutely agree with.. though there have been times i follow rather than disappoint or cause an argument...
<paperclip[B]> i guess for lack of a better word/phrase/explanation for it. lol really i see it simply as who i am and what my life is like. it just is.
<^dana> kinda likes being taken out of the comfort zone... lol
<paperclip[B]> lol agreed.
<^dana> im not sure i understand "find the Newness" rhi?
<paperclip[B]> even a good Dom won't always be in the mood for a discussion LOL
<Rhi> the .... um... tryin to think how to put this...
<Rhi> the Excitement? The Thrill.. the lack of jadedness.. or a lack of being complacent and bored with it..
<^dana> great question...
<^dana> my only answer... would be the change that takes place when you find that connection again...
<Rhi> it's kinda like.. how do you Avoid that 'been there, done that, next question' feeling?
<^dana> its tied up (excused the pun... grins...) to your needs and the connection you have with someone
<paperclip[B]> hmm, i'm thinking most relationships hit that point Rhi...it's just a matter of working thru it and continuing to explore with each other. do you think you get that feeling becuz after a while...people can sometimes fall into the habit of taking each other for granted?
<Rhi> that's part of it, paperclip.. but I find myself facing that a lot mroe when I'm Not in a relationship.. like I have been lately.. than when I Am in one
<paperclip[B]> people sometimes forget why they're with the person they're with. life becomes a mix of habits and rituals.
<paperclip[B]> ah
<^dana> its the dating thing... lol
<paperclip[B]> perhaps then, you just have to find the one who sets a spark in you and you haven't yet.
<paperclip[B]> oh and what ^dana said LOL
<Rhi> LOL.. gee thanks, sis... I Knew I could count on you for the reality check
<paperclip[B]> you've just got to find the person out there who inspires you to keep things fresh.
<^dana> lolol
<paperclip[B]> LOL
<^dana> and not settle for less... smiles...
<Rhi> (if you haven't guessed, dana and I are... LONG time friends lolol.. and she knows me better than any other Living person)
<paperclip[B]> ah
<Rhi> she knows how often over the past 4 years I've done exactly what she mentioned.. Settled for Less
<paperclip[B]> yikes
<ravynne{WS}> raise your standards then hun
<ravynne{WS}> :)
<Rhi> *nodnodnod* yeah.. Yikes.. and Always disasterous
<ravynne{WS}> usually if you settle...you end up being disappointed or unsatisfied
<Rhi> lol.. ravynne... it was a matter of Lowering my standards to Settle for Something.. because I kept getting told that my standards are To High to Reach
<ravynne{WS}> :(
<ravynne{WS}> are they realistic Rhi?
<^dana> would rather be alone (though im rarely lonely...) than settle again...
<ravynne{WS}> first thing you should ask yourself
<Rhi> I would think, though.. that Loyalty, Honesty, Honor, a strong sense of Ethics, and a strong sense of Responcibility and Caring are NOT unreasonable or to high
<ravynne{WS}> if so...keep looking ..there has got to be someone out there that will meet those standards
<ravynne{WS}> no they are not unreasonable at all
<ravynne{WS}> don't get discouraged
<^dana> i dont think the standards are high... its basically what we all look for in friends and partners...
* ravynne{WS} nods
<Rhi> the odd part ravynne, is that there are 2 right now who at least Appear to meet those standards.. but neither of them identifies themselves as being involved in BDSM or Ds, it's.. not a major part of either of their lives, though the personality is there
<paperclip[B]> sorry everyone, i have to go.
<Rhi> hagn paperclip
<^dana> and we're back to the mindset being very important
<Rhi> lolol.. yeah, I guess we are (duncha just Love those logic circles?)
<^dana> lolol
<ravynne{WS}> hmm.... Rhi... if they are not involved in BDSM or D/s then are you settling again? how important is the lifestyle to you in your relationship?
<Rhi> it Used to be a major factor...
<Rhi> but
<Rhi> I've gotten burned so often, and so Badly, over the past few years that it has become a LOT LESS important to me
<krista-F> i wish it would become less important to me
<Rhi> and both of them are.. very kink aware... they simply don't...... Dominant is not a lable they apply to themselves, and they don't consider it a major Focus of their lives
<ravynne{WS}> one of the qualities i think a submissive should have is self confidence
<ravynne{WS}> i find many...sadly..do not
<Rhi> or we have it, but only in certain areas
<ravynne{WS}> yes
<^dana> good point
<Rhi> I'm guilty of that to the Nth degree
<Rhi> I have it where my work is concerned.. or my music... or even things like my housekeeping... but not on certain personal levels
<^dana> we all have places where we are not sure of ourselves...
<Rhi> ( I definately don't have it where my painting is concerned LOL)
<ravynne{WS}> but i wonder how appealing the self confidence thing is to Dominants....or does it frighten them?
<ravynne{WS}> leasst you can paint lol
<Rhi> I honestly think it frightens a lot of them
<^dana> mine is large crowds... public speaking... lol...
<Rhi> lolol ravynne.. you wouldn't say that if you'd seen any of my paintings.. I've only been at it a couple of weeks
<Rhi> so often these days especially.. we're taught by the BDSM community that submissives are supposed to be Meek.. mild .. even tempered... deferential to Everyone..
* `abi{A} must have missed that lesson
<jewel`{F}> me too abi
<ravynne{WS}> hmm ..so determination to learn a task and to learn or achieve a specific goal
<icemaiden> so strong willed , self confident , independent submissives should not apply i guess lol
<ravynne{WS}> this is a good thing
<ModBot> There are only about five minutes left in the formal part of tonight's discussion. Does anyone have any last-minute thoughts on the subject?
<Rhi> and when they see self confidence in us.. they.. Question.. our capacity to submit, becuase if we're that sure of ourselves, what do we need their guidance for?
<^dana> after any bad experience or relationship we all have self doubts... its only natural and it takes time to heal...
<ravynne{WS}> i agree dana
<`abi{A}> I don't agree Rhi ... my experience has been that most Dominants get far more satisfaction from the domination of a strong submissive
<Rhi> do they, abi? or do they see it as a challenge to break her will and strength?
<ravynne{WS}> i think it depends on the type of Dominant `abi{A}
<ravynne{WS}> if a Dom wants to break your will then..umm run??
<`abi{A}> not at all Rhi ... becasue submission isn't about breaking will, it's about bending it
<Rhi> trust me, ravynne.. I have.. more than once LoL
<krista-F> why is well behaved so often equated with weakness..?
<Rhi> because they are looking for excuses to punish, mistaking punishment for play
<ravynne{WS}> i don't see it as weakness krista-F i see it as a form of beauty ..(even in male subs)
<`abi{A}> quality of a good Dominant...one who knows that they don't need an excuse to play
<^dana> i dont know krista...
<Rhi> or because they figure that if you are well behaved and compliant, that you lack the strength of will NOT to comply.. that you're Afraid not to comply
<krista-F> i have worked hard to learn to be well behaved..and i am not a weak person..
<krista-F> it gives me pleasure to be such
<Rhi> krista.. it takes a Lot more strength to be obedient than to be disobedient
<^dana> for myself its about following with a little grace... there are situations where i will question but for the most part i do so afterwards... if that makes me a doormat... oh well... just tred very gently
<ModBot> Well, that's it for the formal part of the discussion. The discussion log is now closed. It should be processed and uploaded to the www.ehbc.ca website soon. Please feel free to continue chatting informally. Have a good night, everyone!
<ModBot> Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.
<krista-F> its not about being obedient to one for me Rhi..it is a way of conducting myself with A/all